Large world, tiny people - Map Design flaw

[Sobx.1758]

26 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

Like you don't see it all the time...

Correct, I don't. But you sure try to push some narrative here, for whatever reason. 🙄 

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

The main reason these designs happen from a video game perspective is because of "practicality". When the initial design phases of any games happen, the concept artist go for a more "genuine" representation of what kind of visuals they want (so characters don't look as tiny on some buildings and such), but once you put that into 3D modelling and you start working through the technical stuff, you need to be able to make it a "practical" design. If at any point any of their existing content (and possibly future ones) run into issues, then they'll make the adjustments for things such as character collision and clipping for example. 

 

Basically those things were designed the way they are so that there's minimal issues as possible. I think someone already gave an example with the realistic sized doors in some games then all of a sudden they cause issues because the characters or mounts don't fit in them. So yeah, it's the "practical" side of design that kicks in when it came to making those archways absurdly huge and such. 

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

"narrative"

Keep on red hatting, or red pilling, or whatever you call it these days.

...what? You just took one person's voluntary addition to the post and tried to spin a single "I love the game" into some kind of "mandatory addition to any criticism because community bad". Nothing about that is "red hatting"/"red pilling"/whatever. If OP didn't include it there, it would change absolutely nothing about the responses (except this exact, irrelevant comment chain).

 

Anyways, have fun with your approach to this thread, I already responded to OP and I have no deal with continuing this weird derail o/

Edited August 18, 2021 by Sobx.1758
I can't spell

[Rogue.8235]

2 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

They also use perspective to make things look farther away and larger or smaller than what they are.  You ever stand next to a window and you're a giant?

 

These are design principles that even Disney uses.

  This si the concept of parallax.  It's also used to make 2d things look 3d to save on system resources of the client.

 

2 hours ago, lokh.2695 said:

Something that bothers me more, but is a more recent thing since mounts came to the game, is the forced perspective in DR. On launch, designers put tiny houses at the edge of the map that, when seen from the ground trickes your brain into thinking they're farther away. Now with mounts, you can go to these houses and see that not even an asura could fit through some of the doors. A better example you can find is the aerodrome where, to make the room look taller than it actual is, the airships get smaller and smaller the higher up they are.

 

 

This is the limitations of current information system hardware.  It is far to resource intensive to not do this.  The alternative is to have jarringly barren space and massively reduced number of assets because it's all about polygon count.  Too many polygons and not enough processing power is the bottleneck of technology.  Every game will utilize these "tricks" of parallax to compensate.

 

I agree taht it kills the illusion once you find out what's really going on.

 

1 hour ago, Tazzuki.2648 said:

what my point was that arches normally lead to important cultural places and I just feel it’s overused. Arches was only a small example of what I was trying to explain.

 

 

I never really thought about this, but now that I do I see the point.  As I am understanding it, overuse of a significant artistic concept kills its significance.   It's like the Warf syndrome of Star Trek.  He's the big, tough guy of the crew, and is beaten up by villains to show how strong the villains are.  But since Warf is beaten up so many times, he's no longer big or tough, just the weakling that gets beat up all the time.  Overuse kills the concept.

 

 

It would be amazing if you can sketch what you envision Divinity's Reach to look like from the perspective of its residents.  As an artist, I'm sure you'll appreciate how your art can convey a your point better than a thousand pages of text can.

 

Again, though, the biggest problem is the technical limitations combined with the necessity for ease of gameplay.

 

 

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

OK, I'll bite, but it definitely feels like a troll/bait post, so apologies if you're being genuine. 

 

Short answer: its a fantasy game where things like the starter cities are supposed to feel large and grand to allow for the "feeling of being someplace large and bustling" rather than "gosh that archway seems impractical."  Literally every game in forever does this.  Just look at something like Skyrim and you will see really questionable design from a historically accurate or practical POV.

 

Now, that being said, while I can point to any number of cathedrals and palaces from around the world with grotesquely impractical designs as a hard counter to your position regarding scale and practicality, I'd like to point out that at the end of the day,  the MANY artists that work at Arenanet no doubt have a combined knowledge that far surpasses your years as an artist and as game designers they worked for a LONG time on their world's design to come up with a particular aesthetic for each of the 5 playable races, all of the "minor" races, and the lands and buildings that flow between them all.  Furthermore, they are fairly well versed on how best to scale things so as to give both the feeling of things being grand, while also not trying to spread out too many players across a given map so interplay is possible, which for an MMO is a surprisingly delicate balance to strike.  If this were more of a single player game with limited scope/map, then you can afford to "bring things in more" in a manner of speaking, but even then it comes down to the kind of game you want to make.  A game like Skyward Sword or Genshin requires some extra verticality built into it for its climbing and exploration mechanics even though they are for the most part, single player/action games.  MMOs tend to require wider angle camera work for big events so the world needs to be designed accordingly.

[Chaba.5410]

6 hours ago, Tazzuki.2648 said:

Hello! Before I get into my concern.. I’d like to mention I have been an experienced artist for 10+ years, graduated and everything.

 

What kind of experience as an artist?  That's a vast field.  My degree is also in art and I think you're being unfairly critical for no real reason.

People said Fountain by Marcel Duchamp was flawed too.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[LSD.4673]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Anyways, have fun with your approach to this thread, I already responded to OP and I have no deal with continuing this weird derail o/

...why would you start and then pretend to be above it? Laaaaame.

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Tazzuki.2648 said:

One thing I notice mostly is that large arches normally come limited and only when it really compliments the space. (Most Churches only have one large door for example)

 

what my point was that arches normally lead to important cultural places and I just feel it’s overused. Arches was only a small example of what I was trying to explain.

LOL ok.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/The_Valens_Aqueduct_Bozdoğan_Kemeri_-_panoramio.jpg

 

I bet there's a Structural Engineering for Artists class you could take at a nearby uni.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Chaba.5410

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

5 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

LOL ok.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/The_Valens_Aqueduct_Bozdoğan_Kemeri_-_panoramio.jpg

 

Yeah, the primary use of arches was structurally sound way of making a thing.  Use as decoration came later, and even then it was still primarily because it made for a good way to keep a building upright before we inventing things like steel I-beams. 

[Tazzuki.2648]

45 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

What kind of experience as an artist?  That's a vast field.  My degree is also in art and I think you're being unfairly critical for no real reason.

People said Fountain by Marcel Duchamp was flawed too.

Something I should have probably added! It is a majorly vast field and I never claimed to be an all see all know-it-all which is why i was interested in starting a topic about this in the first place. i claimed to be experienced in a way to introduce myself at somewhat knowledgeable in the field to entice other artists to comment their thoughts which creates discussion and a way for artist in other parts of arts to talk. which I've enjoyed reading and will probably comment gradually! I'm dyslexic so typing is a bit daunting so ill reply to them when i can.

I cover mostly Digital art and interested in 3D design and in uni our main focus was to create things like this. things that make us question what is already in the world as we see and find a way to improve or look at new perspectives and a ton other things. it challenges the mind and i think its fun! 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

There is a Tonic that makes you bigger. 

 

This way, your dream about being a giant woman can become true. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by DanAlcedo.3281

[Roda.7468]

9 hours ago, Tazzuki.2648 said:

Divinity’s Reach. Why is there so many giant archways? And why would an archway be ten times bigger then a mount to reach a bank? Or a trade post?  Why does a bank look more of like a horse stable then a bank… basically what I’m trying to say is.. the map design dose not sell or convince me that I’m in a world that cares about the reasoning for the architecture and why (as example) the divinity’s reach civilians would need giant archways (as example) 

 

This dives deeper then just some measly archways however.. as characters at the maximum hight still look incredibly tiny. I’m sure 90% of DR isn’t used much because people don’t really need to go to that area unless they are completing stories or role playing.

 

Ok yes finally someone has said it.  The environmental design in this game is GREAT!.... for organic and natural structures.  But once you get to the constructed ones the illusion gets broken pretty easily.  I've also noticed a lot of the opposite problem too, where I find a lot of structures that are illogically small and cramped considering who they're built for.  Though I do also find areas which are too big (sometimes even right next to eachother!)  Like, I get the archways in divinity's reach being huge. It's a big city, and high ceilings look wealthy.  But the buildings have obviously been scaled up to fill space, which is fine, but they didn't resize the doors to make sense!  Honestly, go to Gerenhoff [&BBkAAAA=] or the Village of Kweli [&BOUKAAA=] and you'll see even more of this wonky scaling.

[Dante.1508]

Fantasy by definition is grand and epic.. The architecture stands to reason would follow that chain of thought.. Its designed to Awe more than anything..

 

I also think it tends to follow medieval architecture eras some what where everything was designed on a huge scale.

 

Personally i like the designs and world building in GW2

Edited August 19, 2021 by Dante.1508

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its actually an intentional design decision. Back when video games were first coming out in 3D, artists tried to make the maps very similar to real life, however this had disasterous consequences with multiplayer, because you couldn't fit everyone in the hallways and such.

 

Its not such a big deal in a game without clipping, but it still becomes extremely visually noisy and disorientating to have everyone all clipping through each other. Human instinct is to avoid other players even without clipping, and if you watch carefully players still instinctively move around each other most of the time.

 

The industry name for this design method is called "Tall and Wide", and it was especially popularised by Quake, from which GW2 draws many inspirations especially in its gothic architecture and PvP gameplay.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Vexona.6452]

There's more than one "art" out there. I have 32 years experience in art and I find it lovely the way they scaled to make the world feel large and vast and take hours to walk across a zone.

[Kalocin.5982]

Fun random fact, in WoW, the Orc city Orgrimmar has a bridge that connects to two mountain walls with no entrances/exits. Why? It looks cool from the ground I guess. Devs often focus more on efficiency and practicality over realistic design. 

 

GW2 actually has a pretty good example of this, at launch a lot of the human stories utilized going in buildings but they were too small for the camera because they were scaled to a realistic size in direct response to other MMOs having oversized buildings.

 

They stopped doing that though because it's incredibly awkward for the camera. There's a reason why most games use large buildings in general

[Zephire.8049]

20 minutes ago, Kalocin.5982 said:

GW2 actually has a pretty good example of this, at launch a lot of the human stories utilized going in buildings but they were too small for the camera because they were scaled to a realistic size in direct response to other MMOs having oversized buildings.

 

They stopped doing that though because it's incredibly awkward for the camera. There's a reason why most games use large buildings in general

Add in how if it's a new story, a dozen or two people will be packed into the same room and you can't see what's going on and your camera keeps clipping into other people. Heck, it doesn't even have to be story—when they added the chair achievement it was a nightmare to see anything in rooms where there was a type of chair you needed.

 

Throw in charr and norn, you can't see anything if something takes place in a small room with a 10ft ceiling. Now add items that make you bigger, wings, infusions, and particle effects on top of that. People complained about the frost effect in Eastern Bjora making it hard to see what was going on, there would absolutely be an uproar if a new area forced people into a small area and prevented the camera from zooming out.

 

They even moved the spawn point after the human tutorial to be outside because people spawned inside an inn and people would use tonics to block the doorway and new players wouldn't know where to go because they couldn't see the door. New player retention >>>>> being married to keeping everything realistic.

[b k.1648]

14 hours ago, Tazzuki.2648 said:

Now the instant thought people would go into is ‘reducing size’ however I’m not asking to make the world smaller, just more practical looking as if it made sense. You raised a very important argument about camera angles but I believe there could be a solution if we seek one.

 

for you, you don’t have to care about what you’re playing but for people like me who absolutely LOVE designs in things and appreciate where a games going in terms of design entirely and evolving.. I’m sure the art devs might be interested

 

 

It does seem to be something that doesn't bother very many people.

It does bother me, because with the scales of various props being all over the place, there are fewer reliable points of comparison, making it difficult to get a read on the landscape. But I do wonder if this is something I only care about because it's my job as an environment/level designer.

[BadHealer.3608]

Yeah, I'm sure we would love all a realistic world. Streets so narrow that you couldn't have an inch to move, everybody using the street to empty their potty, insects and smell everybody, you would need hours a walk of a mile, fire quite common and so on.

 

We do not want a game to be fun and roll with our rollerbeatle around. We want the dirty, dead, hunger and famine everywhere. We want to get sick from playing the game. Games should be no fun, they should be realistic. I mean we are in a world with dragons, magic, gods. That needs to be absolute realistic. Families have ten children and 8 are dead, before their mother dies at the ripping old age of 25.

[Dante.1763]

Eh..the only few sins i think anet commits in their game really have no connection to structural/city or world design, they do all of that outstandingly. Sure its not all realistic, but its a fantasy world, with fantasy world rules, it doesnt thankfully have to be realistic.

[Tazzuki.2648]

1 hour ago, BadHealer.3608 said:

Yeah, I'm sure we would love all a realistic world. Streets so narrow that you couldn't have an inch to move, everybody using the street to empty their potty, insects and smell everybody, you would need hours a walk of a mile, fire quite common and so on.

 

We do not want a game to be fun and roll with our rollerbeatle around. We want the dirty, dead, hunger and famine everywhere. We want to get sick from playing the game. Games should be no fun, they should be realistic. I mean we are in a world with dragons, magic, gods. That needs to be absolute realistic. Families have ten children and 8 are dead, before their mother dies at the ripping old age of 25.

Sometimes when there’s added realism in a fantasy it makes the fantasy more epic and more appreciated. And like I stated in the thread I’m not talking about reducing size, just adding better comparison in sizes. Like maybe more smaller things to ground it a bit more! Some textures could be improved and if we choose to use gothic, Greek and such that we use it appropriately since it looks weird overused. 

[Fipmip.7219]

The reason for it has been stated a few times already. It's a common practice in old 3rd person games. take a look at the fable games, or jak and daxter, or ratchet and clank, and you'll see it all over the place. it's to help reduce the amount of camera banging on close surfaces. that being said, I find there's still plenty of realistically scaled streets in divinty's reach.

[TwiceDead.1963]

There's not enough normal little villages and houses where you can enter homes. Divinity's Reach has some great buildings that you can walk inside of, but there's no reason to.

Give me house visits! I will visit a house and break their furniture then leave without a word like the blight on society I am!

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

Holy crab, it all makes sense now, new expansion is End of Dragons, and the next one will be Beginning of Giants, they will return, all the gigantic doors and archways are a plot by the White Mantle, preparing for the return of their masters, it's all connected.

[Chaba.5410]

14 hours ago, Tazzuki.2648 said:

Something I should have probably added! It is a majorly vast field and I never claimed to be an all see all know-it-all which is why i was interested in starting a topic about this in the first place. i claimed to be experienced in a way to introduce myself at somewhat knowledgeable in the field to entice other artists to comment their thoughts which creates discussion and a way for artist in other parts of arts to talk. which I've enjoyed reading and will probably comment gradually! I'm dyslexic so typing is a bit daunting so ill reply to them when i can.

I cover mostly Digital art and interested in 3D design and in uni our main focus was to create things like this. things that make us question what is already in the world as we see and find a way to improve or look at new perspectives and a ton other things. it challenges the mind and i think its fun! 

That's fair.  I think you could have approached the topic a little differently.

 

At the uni I went to, the teaching style was more theoretical than vocational so a lot of time was spent thinking and writing critically about art.  The approach used was to ask first why we think the artist made those decisions and what our own biases were that could be coloring our feelings towards the art to start a discussion from there.  You could imagine this was actually a difficult activity for those who thought they could just cruise through college on an "easy" art degree.