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Should there be a Medium Armor High Health class?

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  • @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    These class didn't start with nor will end with GW2. All of these are traditional archetypes throughout the fantasy lore. Warrior/Fighters or Paladins always had Heavy Plate or Chainmail, Thieves or Rangers / Rouges wore medium/ Leather Armor, and Scholars/Mages wore robes/ Light Armor. One doesn't just and change a whole 100 years of story telling and mythical lore for nothing without expecting a major shift in continuity. Even in games that allow changes, its explained and put in a slightly different box.

    You both are absolutely right that it's a very old concept, indeed thematically tied to the classic archetypes you described.
    But gameplaywise there's imo some real big flaws on how ANet has implemented an arbitrary system tied to both AR and HP! Sure, you'd obviously expect more Armor Rating / Defence on a full plated body armor worn by a frontline archetype (like a warrior) than a mesmer in the backline wearing nothing more than a nightgown. But Health, well, I don't see any thematical or even logical reasoning behind the system that is in place now (i.e. it's not like something far more logical like: if you wear Heavy Amor, you move slower: I'm happy that's not in the game, btw. It would hurt the game a lot!).
    I mean take the Guardian, by new people often seen as a Paladin archetype. Yes you would expect them to have sturdy armor, but no, I would never expect them to have the lowest base health pool out there ... Or a Necromancer ... it's in the name even: death should be it's specialty, and it is the furthest away from it with the largest health pool out there!

    There's only gameplay reasons why they have set differences in Health Pools, which leads to lesser choice once you've chosen your class, and the stigmas that come with it in the community. So, I'm a real advocate of removing those base health pool differences. (Again, combined with an extensive balance pass!).
    Armor Rating is a different story. Yea, you could set those to one and the same AR for all classes, I don't think it would actually hurt the game that much (probably even improve it), but like mentioned above, this one is thematically far more tied to these classic archetypes. It's somewhat comparable to the whole idea of wielding a shield, but not getting extra defence from it. It just feels a bit weird.

    Think of it as training and efficiency. If you're a mage in heavy armor, not only are you not trained to Fight in that armor, you don't have the prowess need to cast your sophisticated spells. Warriors don't fight in non heavy armor because it makes no sense not to.

    Yea, but what has that to do with Health? I agree it has a lot to do with Armor, but the base health system in GW2 is just arbitrary and only serves gameplay elements (not thematic and/or lore, etc.).

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021

    Imo, the healthpool doesnt say alot. In the medium armor class, ranger and engineer both are extremely tanky classes that dont need an big healthpool in order to be tankier than classes like warrior or necro.

    What i would prefer more is to make a gap between the armor types itself, not inside them.
    Like Warrior, Rev and Guard have big health, Ranger engi & thief mediocre etc.
    But then make it like Heavy armor have one dodge; medium armor has 2 & light armor has one dodge and something else (like immunities from Ele and Mesmer & shroud from necro)

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Changing Armor, would definitely change the theme of a class imo. It also stems back to GW1, where it played a significant role in gameplay (and thematically as well).

    But again, those base health pool differences in GW2 has been a really strange and arbitrary decision from ANet and imo, I can't see any real thematic and/or lore reasons why there are differences between classes like that. (Except for maybe one class: the Daredevil). It only somewhat affects the gameplay, and imo is far less of a factor now, than it it used to be back in 2012.
    A good time to level those health pools to one and the same base pool! Obviously, combined with a well extensive balance patch which most of us have been waiting for, for a long time now.

    No... the theme of the class comes from its wepon effects and its F1-5 if armor played that big of an roll then it would of too been changed with the trait line update.

    And that thing thing the armor / hp system is an hold over from an much older system where you got most of your power hp armor etc.. from your build not your gear. This was balanced for what the class would use (some classes would have a hard time getting hp from the trait lines and good dmg but they had high base hp / def to start with.) Now we lost all of the theme base for trait lines in way of hp / def but we still have this out dated hp / def armor class system.

    This is kinda ignoring the skill sets the different classes have access to, tho.

    Thief, for example, has a low health pool because they have alot of active defenses in their skills. Evades, stealth, tons of mobility, etc.
    Necromancer is on the other side of the spectrum, they have very little active defense. Low mobility, no blocks, no evades, no stealth. Having a large health pool and healing are the only thing they have here.

    You can apply the same logic to other classes. Guardian has many blocks and protective boons.
    Elementalist has alot of mobility and literally always access to additional healing regardless of the build thanks to water magic.

    They even applied the logic to an elite spec with scrapper. Scrapper adds quite alot of defense to the engineer, with the rework it got a bit counterbalanced by giving scrapper a vitality malus in the minor traits. So if you get through their defense, then they are a bit easier to burst down.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Changing Armor, would definitely change the theme of a class imo. It also stems back to GW1, where it played a significant role in gameplay (and thematically as well).

    But again, those base health pool differences in GW2 has been a really strange and arbitrary decision from ANet and imo, I can't see any real thematic and/or lore reasons why there are differences between classes like that. (Except for maybe one class: the Daredevil). It only somewhat affects the gameplay, and imo is far less of a factor now, than it it used to be back in 2012.
    A good time to level those health pools to one and the same base pool! Obviously, combined with a well extensive balance patch which most of us have been waiting for, for a long time now.

    No... the theme of the class comes from its wepon effects and its F1-5 if armor played that big of an roll then it would of too been changed with the trait line update.

    And that thing thing the armor / hp system is an hold over from an much older system where you got most of your power hp armor etc.. from your build not your gear. This was balanced for what the class would use (some classes would have a hard time getting hp from the trait lines and good dmg but they had high base hp / def to start with.) Now we lost all of the theme base for trait lines in way of hp / def but we still have this out dated hp / def armor class system.

    This is kinda ignoring the skill sets the different classes have access to, tho.

    Thief, for example, has a low health pool because they have alot of active defenses in their skills. Evades, stealth, tons of mobility, etc.
    Necromancer is on the other side of the spectrum, they have very little active defense. Low mobility, no blocks, no evades, no stealth. Having a large health pool and healing are the only thing they have here.

    You can apply the same logic to other classes. Guardian has many blocks and protective boons.
    Elementalist has alot of mobility and literally always access to additional healing regardless of the build thanks to water magic.

    They even applied the logic to an elite spec with scrapper. Scrapper adds quite alot of defense to the engineer, with the rework it got a bit counterbalanced by giving scrapper a vitality malus in the minor traits. So if you get through their defense, then they are a bit easier to burst down.

    Why dose a high armor high hp class like war get a take 0 effect? Why dose a high armor class get blocks like gurd? Why dose a mid hp class high armor class rev get dmg taken becomes healing?

    That the point classes have build in def with skills and passive effect that has NOTHING to do with there armor and hp so the only thing the hp / armor difference dose is unbalanced the classes all the more and makes things way over complex to balance.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Changing Armor, would definitely change the theme of a class imo. It also stems back to GW1, where it played a significant role in gameplay (and thematically as well).

    But again, those base health pool differences in GW2 has been a really strange and arbitrary decision from ANet and imo, I can't see any real thematic and/or lore reasons why there are differences between classes like that. (Except for maybe one class: the Daredevil). It only somewhat affects the gameplay, and imo is far less of a factor now, than it it used to be back in 2012.
    A good time to level those health pools to one and the same base pool! Obviously, combined with a well extensive balance patch which most of us have been waiting for, for a long time now.

    No... the theme of the class comes from its wepon effects and its F1-5 if armor played that big of an roll then it would of too been changed with the trait line update.

    And that thing thing the armor / hp system is an hold over from an much older system where you got most of your power hp armor etc.. from your build not your gear. This was balanced for what the class would use (some classes would have a hard time getting hp from the trait lines and good dmg but they had high base hp / def to start with.) Now we lost all of the theme base for trait lines in way of hp / def but we still have this out dated hp / def armor class system.

    This is kinda ignoring the skill sets the different classes have access to, tho.

    Thief, for example, has a low health pool because they have alot of active defenses in their skills. Evades, stealth, tons of mobility, etc.
    Necromancer is on the other side of the spectrum, they have very little active defense. Low mobility, no blocks, no evades, no stealth. Having a large health pool and healing are the only thing they have here.

    You can apply the same logic to other classes. Guardian has many blocks and protective boons.
    Elementalist has alot of mobility and literally always access to additional healing regardless of the build thanks to water magic.

    They even applied the logic to an elite spec with scrapper. Scrapper adds quite alot of defense to the engineer, with the rework it got a bit counterbalanced by giving scrapper a vitality malus in the minor traits. So if you get through their defense, then they are a bit easier to burst down.

    That the point classes have build in def with skills and passive effect that has NOTHING to do with there armor and hp

    Its the exact opposite. These things all consider the class as a whole including the amount of base HP they have. You can't compare things in isolation like you are doing.
    You're only seeing HP and armour because those are the points you want to make but there is more to it than that. You think ele would play better with a high hp pool? In insolation maybe but if they did they change you can bet they would reduce its sustain other ways. Less healing, removing evades on skills, higher cooldowns on defensive skills etc etc.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Changing Armor, would definitely change the theme of a class imo. It also stems back to GW1, where it played a significant role in gameplay (and thematically as well).

    But again, those base health pool differences in GW2 has been a really strange and arbitrary decision from ANet and imo, I can't see any real thematic and/or lore reasons why there are differences between classes like that. (Except for maybe one class: the Daredevil). It only somewhat affects the gameplay, and imo is far less of a factor now, than it it used to be back in 2012.
    A good time to level those health pools to one and the same base pool! Obviously, combined with a well extensive balance patch which most of us have been waiting for, for a long time now.

    No... the theme of the class comes from its wepon effects and its F1-5 if armor played that big of an roll then it would of too been changed with the trait line update.

    And that thing thing the armor / hp system is an hold over from an much older system where you got most of your power hp armor etc.. from your build not your gear. This was balanced for what the class would use (some classes would have a hard time getting hp from the trait lines and good dmg but they had high base hp / def to start with.) Now we lost all of the theme base for trait lines in way of hp / def but we still have this out dated hp / def armor class system.

    This is kinda ignoring the skill sets the different classes have access to, tho.

    Thief, for example, has a low health pool because they have alot of active defenses in their skills. Evades, stealth, tons of mobility, etc.
    Necromancer is on the other side of the spectrum, they have very little active defense. Low mobility, no blocks, no evades, no stealth. Having a large health pool and healing are the only thing they have here.

    You can apply the same logic to other classes. Guardian has many blocks and protective boons.
    Elementalist has alot of mobility and literally always access to additional healing regardless of the build thanks to water magic.

    They even applied the logic to an elite spec with scrapper. Scrapper adds quite alot of defense to the engineer, with the rework it got a bit counterbalanced by giving scrapper a vitality malus in the minor traits. So if you get through their defense, then they are a bit easier to burst down.

    That the point classes have build in def with skills and passive effect that has NOTHING to do with there armor and hp

    Its the exact opposite. These things all consider the class as a whole including the amount of base HP they have. You can't compare things in isolation like you are doing.

    Right hp and armor plays a roll in how tankly a class in but its not part of the class it self as there are skills and effects build into the class to make them already tankly. The biggest one is building with gear combo that is tankly and not just have it handed to you freely because of your class.

    The amount of hp / armor a class has as a base should not be part of the game when most of the armor and hp a build has is base off of its armor combo build. That was the point of the trait line update and class varying like they do now is nothing more then a hold over from that system.

    Your only defing anet inability to keep with any thing and giving them a free pass to simply move on before they finnish something.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Changing Armor, would definitely change the theme of a class imo. It also stems back to GW1, where it played a significant role in gameplay (and thematically as well).

    But again, those base health pool differences in GW2 has been a really strange and arbitrary decision from ANet and imo, I can't see any real thematic and/or lore reasons why there are differences between classes like that. (Except for maybe one class: the Daredevil). It only somewhat affects the gameplay, and imo is far less of a factor now, than it it used to be back in 2012.
    A good time to level those health pools to one and the same base pool! Obviously, combined with a well extensive balance patch which most of us have been waiting for, for a long time now.

    No... the theme of the class comes from its wepon effects and its F1-5 if armor played that big of an roll then it would of too been changed with the trait line update.

    And that thing thing the armor / hp system is an hold over from an much older system where you got most of your power hp armor etc.. from your build not your gear. This was balanced for what the class would use (some classes would have a hard time getting hp from the trait lines and good dmg but they had high base hp / def to start with.) Now we lost all of the theme base for trait lines in way of hp / def but we still have this out dated hp / def armor class system.

    This is kinda ignoring the skill sets the different classes have access to, tho.

    Thief, for example, has a low health pool because they have alot of active defenses in their skills. Evades, stealth, tons of mobility, etc.
    Necromancer is on the other side of the spectrum, they have very little active defense. Low mobility, no blocks, no evades, no stealth. Having a large health pool and healing are the only thing they have here.

    You can apply the same logic to other classes. Guardian has many blocks and protective boons.
    Elementalist has alot of mobility and literally always access to additional healing regardless of the build thanks to water magic.

    They even applied the logic to an elite spec with scrapper. Scrapper adds quite alot of defense to the engineer, with the rework it got a bit counterbalanced by giving scrapper a vitality malus in the minor traits. So if you get through their defense, then they are a bit easier to burst down.

    That the point classes have build in def with skills and passive effect that has NOTHING to do with there armor and hp

    Its the exact opposite. These things all consider the class as a whole including the amount of base HP they have. You can't compare things in isolation like you are doing.

    Right hp and armor plays a roll in how tankly a class in but its not part of the class it self as there are skills and effects build into the class to make them already tankly.

    You think classes would have the exact same skills and effects they do now if their hp/ armour was all the same?

    Your only defing anet inability to keep with any thing and giving them a free pass to simply move on before they finnish something.

    Not really. Just because you don't like, understand, or accept the reason something is the way it is it in no way means its not finished.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Changing Armor, would definitely change the theme of a class imo. It also stems back to GW1, where it played a significant role in gameplay (and thematically as well).

    But again, those base health pool differences in GW2 has been a really strange and arbitrary decision from ANet and imo, I can't see any real thematic and/or lore reasons why there are differences between classes like that. (Except for maybe one class: the Daredevil). It only somewhat affects the gameplay, and imo is far less of a factor now, than it it used to be back in 2012.
    A good time to level those health pools to one and the same base pool! Obviously, combined with a well extensive balance patch which most of us have been waiting for, for a long time now.

    No... the theme of the class comes from its wepon effects and its F1-5 if armor played that big of an roll then it would of too been changed with the trait line update.

    And that thing thing the armor / hp system is an hold over from an much older system where you got most of your power hp armor etc.. from your build not your gear. This was balanced for what the class would use (some classes would have a hard time getting hp from the trait lines and good dmg but they had high base hp / def to start with.) Now we lost all of the theme base for trait lines in way of hp / def but we still have this out dated hp / def armor class system.

    This is kinda ignoring the skill sets the different classes have access to, tho.

    Thief, for example, has a low health pool because they have alot of active defenses in their skills. Evades, stealth, tons of mobility, etc.
    Necromancer is on the other side of the spectrum, they have very little active defense. Low mobility, no blocks, no evades, no stealth. Having a large health pool and healing are the only thing they have here.

    You can apply the same logic to other classes. Guardian has many blocks and protective boons.
    Elementalist has alot of mobility and literally always access to additional healing regardless of the build thanks to water magic.

    They even applied the logic to an elite spec with scrapper. Scrapper adds quite alot of defense to the engineer, with the rework it got a bit counterbalanced by giving scrapper a vitality malus in the minor traits. So if you get through their defense, then they are a bit easier to burst down.

    That the point classes have build in def with skills and passive effect that has NOTHING to do with there armor and hp

    Its the exact opposite. These things all consider the class as a whole including the amount of base HP they have. You can't compare things in isolation like you are doing.

    Right hp and armor plays a roll in how tankly a class in but its not part of the class it self as there are skills and effects build into the class to make them already tankly.

    You think classes would have the exact same skills and effects they do now if their hp/ armour was all the same?

    What? No i am talking about base hp and armor. Each class has skills to make them self tankly in there own way and you can chose to use them or not base off of your utility and build. The base hp / armor is like saying a class should always have an utility or an wepon class regardless what build they are.

    "Not really. Just because you don't like, understand, or accept the reason something is the way it is it in no way means its not finished."

    Sneak that in there hehe. Anet is known for doing this they start with a new system only to abandoned it and start another new system. They do this a lot with currency once there too much of it in the game they move on to another currency see living story. Anet is realty bad at burning bridges before they corse them comply.

    We are talking about an update that is 5? years old now with no real talk about why they seem to have left overs of that old balancing system.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2021

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Different hp/armor values > different stat distribution (because you basically get "free stats" in that area) > different dmg dealt/received values > possibly needing to make changes in class mechanics (at the very least active defenses) and numerical values of the skills > you don't know how in the end it would impact each of the class and their balance > if you don't know that, then you don't know if it would blur the differences between the classes more or not. Sure, it wouldn't suddenly make everything "play the same", but suddenly suggesting same hp/armor values while trying to pretend nothing would need to change around them is pretty short sighted.

    And I'm not sure what you're even arguing here. What do you think is the chance of all of the classes suddenly having normalized -as in equal- hp/armor values? I think it's just not going to happen and there's no reason for it to happen. If there are problematic areas in some of the classes in someone's subjective opinion, then they're most certainly not solved by just "equalizing hp/armor values". I fail to see the point here.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Different hp/armor values > different stat distribution (because you basically get "free stats" in that area) > different dmg dealt/received values > possibly needing to make changes in class mechanics (at the very least active defenses) and numerical values of the skills > you don't know how in the end it would impact each of the class and their balance > if you don't know that, then you don't know if it would blur the differences between the classes more or not. Sure, it wouldn't suddenly make everything "play the same", but suddenly suggesting same hp/armor values while trying to pretend nothing would need to change around them is pretty short sighted.

    And I'm not sure what you're even arguing here. What do you think is the chance of all of the classes suddenly having normalized -as in equal- hp/armor values? I think it's just not going to happen and there's no reason for it to happen. If there are problematic areas in some of the classes in someone's subjective opinion, then they're most certainly not solved by just "equalizing hp/armor values". I fail to see the point here.

    Why not have Different Power/Precision its all the same when it comes to balancing of skills. If you have 1 more hp then your def skills are 1 hp stronger if you have 1 def then your def skills are 1 def stronger.

    I am just asking to remove this small varyation of hp / def from the game to make things easier to balance. Its silly to think its ok to have the game on the tankly side of balance but NOT of the offsite side of balance.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2021

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Different hp/armor values > different stat distribution (because you basically get "free stats" in that area) > different dmg dealt/received values > possibly needing to make changes in class mechanics (at the very least active defenses) and numerical values of the skills > you don't know how in the end it would impact each of the class and their balance > if you don't know that, then you don't know if it would blur the differences between the classes more or not. Sure, it wouldn't suddenly make everything "play the same", but suddenly suggesting same hp/armor values while trying to pretend nothing would need to change around them is pretty short sighted.

    And I'm not sure what you're even arguing here. What do you think is the chance of all of the classes suddenly having normalized -as in equal- hp/armor values? I think it's just not going to happen and there's no reason for it to happen. If there are problematic areas in some of the classes in someone's subjective opinion, then they're most certainly not solved by just "equalizing hp/armor values". I fail to see the point here.

    Why not have Different Power/Precision its all the same when it comes to balancing of skills. If you have 1 more hp then your def skills are 1 hp stronger if you have 1 def then your def skills are 1 def stronger.

    I don't know what and why you're trying to explain to me right now.

    I am just asking to remove this small varyation of hp / def from the game to make things easier to balance. Its silly to think its ok to have the game on the tankly side of balance but NOT of the offsite side of balance.

    I don't think suddenly flipping core parts of the game after 8+ years will make it "easier to balance".

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Different hp/armor values > different stat distribution (because you basically get "free stats" in that area) > different dmg dealt/received values > possibly needing to make changes in class mechanics (at the very least active defenses) and numerical values of the skills > you don't know how in the end it would impact each of the class and their balance > if you don't know that, then you don't know if it would blur the differences between the classes more or not. Sure, it wouldn't suddenly make everything "play the same", but suddenly suggesting same hp/armor values while trying to pretend nothing would need to change around them is pretty short sighted.

    And I'm not sure what you're even arguing here. What do you think is the chance of all of the classes suddenly having normalized -as in equal- hp/armor values? I think it's just not going to happen and there's no reason for it to happen. If there are problematic areas in some of the classes in someone's subjective opinion, then they're most certainly not solved by just "equalizing hp/armor values". I fail to see the point here.

    Why not have Different Power/Precision its all the same when it comes to balancing of skills. If you have 1 more hp then your def skills are 1 hp stronger if you have 1 def then your def skills are 1 def stronger.

    I don't know what and why you're trying to explain to me right now.

    I am just asking to remove this small varyation of hp / def from the game to make things easier to balance. Its silly to think its ok to have the game on the tankly side of balance but NOT of the offsite side of balance.

    I don't think suddenly flipping core parts of the game after 8+ years will make it "easier to balance".

    That the point saying def/hp is fine as would also logically be ok to add in higher power / precision base off of classes.

    Its been less then 8 years + from the update that changed up the trait line system and agen anet is realty bad at forgetting there old plans for new ones so you need to keep on them about it.

    The game is NOT balanced by any meaning of the world and its mostly from classes whom have high version of an def effects that caused massive unbalancing. We are just in a current def game play is the main op effect due to last years balance update (we are at a year + for an real update and i find over complex things with this hp / def class system IS part of the delay.)

    So yes we are living with the problem of the current system for your 8 years +.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Different hp/armor values > different stat distribution (because you basically get "free stats" in that area) > different dmg dealt/received values > possibly needing to make changes in class mechanics (at the very least active defenses) and numerical values of the skills > you don't know how in the end it would impact each of the class and their balance > if you don't know that, then you don't know if it would blur the differences between the classes more or not. Sure, it wouldn't suddenly make everything "play the same", but suddenly suggesting same hp/armor values while trying to pretend nothing would need to change around them is pretty short sighted.

    And I'm not sure what you're even arguing here. What do you think is the chance of all of the classes suddenly having normalized -as in equal- hp/armor values? I think it's just not going to happen and there's no reason for it to happen. If there are problematic areas in some of the classes in someone's subjective opinion, then they're most certainly not solved by just "equalizing hp/armor values". I fail to see the point here.

    Why not have Different Power/Precision its all the same when it comes to balancing of skills. If you have 1 more hp then your def skills are 1 hp stronger if you have 1 def then your def skills are 1 def stronger.

    I don't know what and why you're trying to explain to me right now.

    I am just asking to remove this small varyation of hp / def from the game to make things easier to balance. Its silly to think its ok to have the game on the tankly side of balance but NOT of the offsite side of balance.

    I don't think suddenly flipping core parts of the game after 8+ years will make it "easier to balance".

    That the point saying def/hp is fine as would also logically be ok to add in higher power / precision base off of classes.

    Sure, but then it would need to be balanced around it and it isn't. This game also could have 3 or 329 classes, but it doesn't. It could use 250 times higher hp values but it doesn't. It could do many things differently, but then it would need to be balanced around them and it isn't. So I still don't see the point of what you're saying right now.

    Its been less then 8 years + from the update that changed up the trait line system and agen anet is realty bad at forgetting there old plans for new ones so you need to keep on them about it.

    Forgetting about what?

    The game is NOT balanced by any meaning of the world and its mostly from classes whom have high version of an def effects that caused massive unbalancing.

    You'll need to specify, because atm I disagree.

    We are just in a current def game play is the main op effect due to last years balance update (we are at a year + for an real update and i find over complex things with this hp / def class system IS part of the delay.)

    And the last year balance update was put in place, because everything was dying way too fast.

    So yes we are living with the problem of the current system for your 8 years +.

    And suddenly making everyone's hp the same solves absolutely nothing.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Different hp/armor values > different stat distribution (because you basically get "free stats" in that area) > different dmg dealt/received values > possibly needing to make changes in class mechanics (at the very least active defenses) and numerical values of the skills > you don't know how in the end it would impact each of the class and their balance > if you don't know that, then you don't know if it would blur the differences between the classes more or not. Sure, it wouldn't suddenly make everything "play the same", but suddenly suggesting same hp/armor values while trying to pretend nothing would need to change around them is pretty short sighted.

    And I'm not sure what you're even arguing here. What do you think is the chance of all of the classes suddenly having normalized -as in equal- hp/armor values? I think it's just not going to happen and there's no reason for it to happen. If there are problematic areas in some of the classes in someone's subjective opinion, then they're most certainly not solved by just "equalizing hp/armor values". I fail to see the point here.

    Why not have Different Power/Precision its all the same when it comes to balancing of skills. If you have 1 more hp then your def skills are 1 hp stronger if you have 1 def then your def skills are 1 def stronger.

    I don't know what and why you're trying to explain to me right now.

    I am just asking to remove this small varyation of hp / def from the game to make things easier to balance. Its silly to think its ok to have the game on the tankly side of balance but NOT of the offsite side of balance.

    I don't think suddenly flipping core parts of the game after 8+ years will make it "easier to balance".

    That the point saying def/hp is fine as would also logically be ok to add in higher power / precision base off of classes.

    Sure, but then it would need to be balanced around it and it isn't. This game also could have 3 or 329 classes, but it doesn't. It could use 250 times higher hp values but it doesn't. It could do many things differently, but then it would need to be balanced around them and it isn't. So I still don't see the point of what you're saying right now.

    Its been less then 8 years + from the update that changed up the trait line system and agen anet is realty bad at forgetting there old plans for new ones so you need to keep on them about it.

    Forgetting about what?

    The game is NOT balanced by any meaning of the world and its mostly from classes whom have high version of an def effects that caused massive unbalancing.

    You'll need to specify, because atm I disagree.

    We are just in a current def game play is the main op effect due to last years balance update (we are at a year + for an real update and i find over complex things with this hp / def class system IS part of the delay.)

    And the last year balance update was put in place, because everything was dying way too fast.

    So yes we are living with the problem of the current system for your 8 years +.

    And suddenly making everyone's hp the same solves absolutely nothing.

    They already do balance arone it by making skills do less scaling or more scaling but def skills are the same way when it comes to hp effectiveness but no one seems to want to admit it. More hp and more def has value to it even if it just add living for 1 hit longer.

    The big update was after the game came out and they did not comply rework every thing to fit that trait line update. Anet dose that a lot. I am sill bugged to no end that anet added in one aura transmutation trait when it feels like as core to ele class as applying auras them self. Its all part of anet problem of moving on as soon as they add something new with out expanding on that new effect or new ideal at all.

    Well max armor classes can get away with running higher power then lower def classes and max hp classes can get away with running much more power then low hp classes. Just simple truths of the game. Living for that 1 hit longer then other classes passive adds up when you have you class def skills added to that. The game is NOT balanced because of this.

    Some classes where dying too fast and some classes where doing too much dmg. Condi was not realty hit and you still have classes able to one shot. Hint lower hp / def classes got hit harder the higher hp / def classes because every class got its dmg hit about the same making the classes whom have higher hp / def stronger as passive def of hp / def was not hit. How do ppl not see this is beyond me.

    Your right it will not fix every thing but the current system and all of the updates we gotten to this point have been mostly bad for the game so a real change to the base game is needed. Any different in the base of the game become aplflyed every time they update the game with out fixing the base differences. That why we only see number updates and not real skill updates. It would be too complex to update skills in a meaningful way in our current system.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2021

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    All classes should have medium armor and medium health its kind of silly that the vary of hp / def is still in the game even though the reason for such effects are long gone as in the old trait point system that had hp def build into it to where some classes would get more from there hp line that where low hp and high hp classes would get a lot less.

    If every class had the same health and armor, than that would change the theme and balance of the classes, wouldn't it?

    How would that change the theme? A class is tankly or glass though its gear combo build more then any thing else. By letting all classes have the same hp / armor you would get away from class just simply getting free hp / armor over other classes that done there by letting them build more glassly. In an odd way the high tankly classes though the current hp / def system are more able to go glassly then the lower hp / def making them more likely to build tankly.

    Different hp/armor values > different stat distribution (because you basically get "free stats" in that area) > different dmg dealt/received values > possibly needing to make changes in class mechanics (at the very least active defenses) and numerical values of the skills > you don't know how in the end it would impact each of the class and their balance > if you don't know that, then you don't know if it would blur the differences between the classes more or not. Sure, it wouldn't suddenly make everything "play the same", but suddenly suggesting same hp/armor values while trying to pretend nothing would need to change around them is pretty short sighted.

    And I'm not sure what you're even arguing here. What do you think is the chance of all of the classes suddenly having normalized -as in equal- hp/armor values? I think it's just not going to happen and there's no reason for it to happen. If there are problematic areas in some of the classes in someone's subjective opinion, then they're most certainly not solved by just "equalizing hp/armor values". I fail to see the point here.

    Why not have Different Power/Precision its all the same when it comes to balancing of skills. If you have 1 more hp then your def skills are 1 hp stronger if you have 1 def then your def skills are 1 def stronger.

    I don't know what and why you're trying to explain to me right now.

    I am just asking to remove this small varyation of hp / def from the game to make things easier to balance. Its silly to think its ok to have the game on the tankly side of balance but NOT of the offsite side of balance.

    I don't think suddenly flipping core parts of the game after 8+ years will make it "easier to balance".

    That the point saying def/hp is fine as would also logically be ok to add in higher power / precision base off of classes.

    Sure, but then it would need to be balanced around it and it isn't. This game also could have 3 or 329 classes, but it doesn't. It could use 250 times higher hp values but it doesn't. It could do many things differently, but then it would need to be balanced around them and it isn't. So I still don't see the point of what you're saying right now.

    Its been less then 8 years + from the update that changed up the trait line system and agen anet is realty bad at forgetting there old plans for new ones so you need to keep on them about it.

    Forgetting about what?

    The game is NOT balanced by any meaning of the world and its mostly from classes whom have high version of an def effects that caused massive unbalancing.

    You'll need to specify, because atm I disagree.

    We are just in a current def game play is the main op effect due to last years balance update (we are at a year + for an real update and i find over complex things with this hp / def class system IS part of the delay.)

    And the last year balance update was put in place, because everything was dying way too fast.

    So yes we are living with the problem of the current system for your 8 years +.

    And suddenly making everyone's hp the same solves absolutely nothing.

    They already do balance arone it by making skills do less scaling or more scaling but def skills are the same way when it comes to hp effectiveness but no one seems to want to admit it. More hp and more def has value to it even if it just add living for 1 hit longer.

    It seems you didn't understand what you've read in my posts. Try re-reading.

    The big update was after the game came out and they did not comply rework every thing to fit that trait line update.

    What exactly did they not rework to fit it? Because the example about auras you gave here is a "miss" for me:

    Anet dose that a lot. I am sill bugged to no end that anet added in one aura transmutation trait when it feels like as core to ele class as applying auras them self. Its all part of anet problem of moving on as soon as they add something new with out expanding on that new effect or new ideal at all.

    They did what they consider being enough considering their vision of the game and you disliking it or trying to claim that it's such a key aspect that it should have however-many-traits-you-want-it-to-have does nothing for the claim that they "abandoned it [or anything else] at the trait rework patch".

    Well max armor classes can get away with running higher power then lower def classes and max hp classes can get away with running much more power then low hp classes. Just simple truths of the game. Living for that 1 hit longer then other classes passive adds up when you have you class def skills added to that. The game is NOT balanced because of this.

    Interesting "simple truths of the game", because that's not exactly the case from my experience. It's like you're trying to pretend that each class consists of 3 same offensive abilities and their basic hp/armor values and then heavy armor/high hp classes win by default (which then could be considered a "simple truth of the game"), but that's just not the case. So... just false.

    Some classes where dying too fast and some classes where doing too much dmg. Condi was not realty hit and you still have classes able to one shot. Hint lower hp / def classes got hit harder the higher hp / def classes because every class got its dmg hit about the same making the classes whom have higher hp / def stronger as passive def of hp / def was not hit. How do ppl not see this is beyond me.

    I also disagree with this -not sure what exactly you're experiencing in-game, but apparently it's something different than what I experience.

    Your right it will not fix every thing but the current system and all of the updates we gotten to this point have been mostly bad for the game so a real change to the base game is needed. Any different in the base of the game become aplflyed every time they update the game with out fixing the base differences. That why we only see number updates and not real skill updates. It would be too complex to update skills in a meaningful way in our current system.

    No, no, I didn't say "it will not fix everything" -I said "it will not fix anything".

    Ah and btw, isn't there only one high health heavy armor class in the game? If what you've said was true and it was so unfair and impactful on the end-result of the combat/balance then that single class would absolutely dominate anything else and that's just not the case. Your feelings about this whole thing seem to be a bit misguided and mostly baseless. Change for the sake of change and "do it because I need symmetry".

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Tbh this has annoyed me a bit for years after I realised it was a thing.

    Yes there should be a high HP medium armour class and while many say it should be Engineer I say it should be Ranger due to the fact that Engineers are already capable of making highly durable and slippery builds.
    Engineer would be too OP with a health buff, Ranger would not alas Ranger deserves it more.

    Ranger would be too OP. Especially in sPVP. you're tanky AND can have a pet that CC's? And/or Does decent deeps? Pets already feel imba in some scenarios in sPVP, we don't need ranger being pushed over the top.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Unpopular opinion: There already is a High HP Medium armor profession.

    It's Ranger. It's just the HP is split between the character and the pet(s).

    If it's, for whatever reason, required that some medium armor needs an HP bump to make people's OCD happy, just bump up the Ranger's pet's HP higher. The end.

  • frareanselm.1925frareanselm.1925 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2021

    Put carrion or dire in a condi ranger, this is high health armor and looks even excessive in my opinion.

  • @Leo G.4501 said:
    Unpopular opinion: There already is a High HP Medium armor profession.

    It's Ranger. It's just the HP is split between the character and the pet(s).

    If it's, for whatever reason, required that some medium armor needs an HP bump to make people's OCD happy, just bump up the Ranger's pet's HP higher. The end.

    So would you also say that Necromancer, Mesmers, Elementalist, and Engineers share their health with their summons?

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    Unpopular opinion: There already is a High HP Medium armor profession.

    It's Ranger. It's just the HP is split between the character and the pet(s).

    If it's, for whatever reason, required that some medium armor needs an HP bump to make people's OCD happy, just bump up the Ranger's pet's HP higher. The end.

    So would you also say that Necromancer, Mesmers, Elementalist, and Engineers share their health with their summons?

    Necromancer, elementalist and engineer are not really fair comparisons, considering that their summons are optional.
    Not every engineer you fight has turrets, but every ranger does have a pet.

    Mesmer is a fair point, tho, considering that all mesmer weapons inherently summon clones or phantasms. Every mesmer you encounter will summon these.