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Please reevaluate barrier

mes.4607mes.4607 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited March 27, 2021 in PVP

Barrier as a mechanic has never made sense to me. Some classes need more healing than others, that's fine. That healing should be integrated into healing skills, regen, etc. I think removing menders amulet would be a good first step, but it doesn't make sense to me how certain barrier savvy classes can "over-heal" themselves by so much. I believe barrier should not be shareable. It should only affect the caster. If barrier was supposed to be scourges form of shroud, then make it only effect them... and tone down how much is applied

Edit: Why is Blood Bank a real trait???

How the heck do I get 5 stars?
<1

Comments

  • cymerdown.4103cymerdown.4103 Member
    edited March 25, 2021

    Totally agree that the biggest issue in the current meta isn't AOE prot, which is fairly vital given the low toughness on today's support amulets. Its the high AOE healing + barrier possible in teamfights slowing the game to a crawl. Reeling in some AOE healing and barrier should bring teamfight length down but be careful not to overnerf solo survivability.

    Kensuda
    NA Support Guardian

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Barrier is fine.

    It's Blood Bank + Sanctuary Rune that is making it look broken and OP on Scourge.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2021

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Barrier is fine.

    It's Blood Bank + Sanctuary Rune that is making it look broken and OP on Scourge.

    This makes sense. Can we focus on certain skills rather than barrier as a whole.

    I think the mechanic in general is needed, especially for low health classes

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just buff damage across all classes. Makes no sense that long casting easy to tell skills do 0 damage because they have some cc attached. Makes me cry every time I land Backbreaker or Drop the Hammer on a foe to get 10 damage... So much useless weapons and skills due they do 0 damage while blocks, evades, blinds and so on remain the same...

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Barrier is fine.

    It's Blood Bank + Sanctuary Rune that is making it look broken and OP on Scourge.

    Remember how the entire necromancer community was complaining that blood bank is useless?

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Barrier is fine.

    It's Blood Bank + Sanctuary Rune that is making it look broken and OP on Scourge.

    Remember how the entire necromancer community was complaining that blood bank is useless?

    Not entire. There were many who disagreed and just got told by the masses/ very vocal individuals that they were wrong...

    IIRC, one of the quotes that got me I believe was something along the lines of "if you ever want to use a healing skill outside of healing then the skill is poorly designed"

    Edit: Thread for those who are interested.. Didn't realise there were so many suggestions to turn it to an objectively far more powerful, and oppressive, trait.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2021

    Yeh, look more on skills and roles
    good egzemple is scrapper that have self barrier, but in same time he got -vitality from trait so his hp is around low hp classes, nerfing his barrier wuld make him not inaf good to be front linder bruiser as he will die while try iniciate fight with enemy for your team

  • Abelisk.5148Abelisk.5148 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Barrier is fine.

    It's Blood Bank + Sanctuary Rune that is making it look broken and OP on Scourge.

    Hahahahahahahahahaha

    YES

    At long last I found the secret build!

    Thank you!

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Barrier is fine.

    It's Blood Bank + Sanctuary Rune that is making it look broken and OP on Scourge.

    Preemptive healing really isn't fine for anyone except maybe necro. Other classes should preemptive damage negate/reduction. Necro is more of an absorb class with life force/death shroud and of course barrier.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭

    Barrier will become even more broken once Menders is gone

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • mes.4607mes.4607 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Remove "Blood Bank"

    How the heck do I get 5 stars?
  • Shogen.5071Shogen.5071 Member ✭✭
    edited March 27, 2021

    barrier pisses me so much at the moment, great for pve but why the hell should players be rewarded with so much overheal, honestly the rotation you have to do in most games to get barrier is rather long or drains all your mana, i get we dont have mana but why the F is their so much freaking barrier just give them passive heals atleast then poison and stuff can nullify it

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    To be fair, if you have an issue with blood bank, you'll probably have the same issue without since the barrier come from the incoming healing. Without BB the heal just need to be timed right, that's all.

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    Just buff zerker tree for dps vs bar then adding a reason to war.
    Remember adding counters is better than nurfing

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What we need is more Barrier pierce or Barrier breaking traits.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    What we need is more Barrier pierce or Barrier breaking traits.

    And didn't they nerf warrior's trait for that almost as soon as they released it? Shame, would be helpful now wouldn't it?

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    What we need is more Barrier pierce or Barrier breaking traits.

    And didn't they nerf warrior's trait for that almost as soon as they released it? Shame, would be helpful now wouldn't it?

    If they want to hand out barrier-busting traits I request they rework minor traits which apply barrier passively. It's really not fair, for instance, to have glass weavers taking massively increased damage from warriors just because every dual attack applies a small amount of barrier. That sort of trait is meant to punish builds that invest heavily into barrier with trait selections and utility, but as usual we'll cause the problem for other builds instead!

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    What we need is more Barrier pierce or Barrier breaking traits.

    And didn't they nerf warrior's trait for that almost as soon as they released it? Shame, would be helpful now wouldn't it?

    If they want to hand out barrier-busting traits I request they rework minor traits which apply barrier passively. It's really not fair, for instance, to have glass weavers taking massively increased damage from warriors just because every dual attack applies a small amount of barrier. That sort of trait is meant to punish builds that invest heavily into barrier with trait selections and utility, but as usual we'll cause the problem for other builds instead!

    Oh I don't disagree. Those traits probably should grant large barrier amounts, but on 10-15s CDs.

    Then you could have things like unnerfed Warrior's Cunning as a hard counter and be fair.

    Edit: if they did that, then impact savant should have the vitality penalty removed.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    What we need is more Barrier pierce or Barrier breaking traits.

    And didn't they nerf warrior's trait for that almost as soon as they released it? Shame, would be helpful now wouldn't it?

    If they want to hand out barrier-busting traits I request they rework minor traits which apply barrier passively. It's really not fair, for instance, to have glass weavers taking massively increased damage from warriors just because every dual attack applies a small amount of barrier. That sort of trait is meant to punish builds that invest heavily into barrier with trait selections and utility, but as usual we'll cause the problem for other builds instead!

    Oh I don't disagree. Those traits probably should grant large barrier amounts, but on 10-15s CDs.

    Then you could have things like unnerfed Warrior's Cunning as a hard counter and be fair.

    Edit: if they did that, then impact savant should have the vitality penalty removed.

    Or they could make the +50% damage only affect the barrier itself, or thry could make it pierce through barrier like unblockable does to blocks. It's really easy, and I don't understand how they botched the design so much.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    What we need is more Barrier pierce or Barrier breaking traits.

    And didn't they nerf warrior's trait for that almost as soon as they released it? Shame, would be helpful now wouldn't it?

    If they want to hand out barrier-busting traits I request they rework minor traits which apply barrier passively. It's really not fair, for instance, to have glass weavers taking massively increased damage from warriors just because every dual attack applies a small amount of barrier. That sort of trait is meant to punish builds that invest heavily into barrier with trait selections and utility, but as usual we'll cause the problem for other builds instead!

    Oh I don't disagree. Those traits probably should grant large barrier amounts, but on 10-15s CDs.

    Then you could have things like unnerfed Warrior's Cunning as a hard counter and be fair.

    Edit: if they did that, then impact savant should have the vitality penalty removed.

    Or they could make the +50% damage only affect the barrier itself, or thry could make it pierce through barrier like unblockable does to blocks. It's really easy, and I don't understand how they botched the design so much.

    Because its probably not as easy as you're making out.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    What we need is more Barrier pierce or Barrier breaking traits.

    And didn't they nerf warrior's trait for that almost as soon as they released it? Shame, would be helpful now wouldn't it?

    If they want to hand out barrier-busting traits I request they rework minor traits which apply barrier passively. It's really not fair, for instance, to have glass weavers taking massively increased damage from warriors just because every dual attack applies a small amount of barrier. That sort of trait is meant to punish builds that invest heavily into barrier with trait selections and utility, but as usual we'll cause the problem for other builds instead!

    Oh I don't disagree. Those traits probably should grant large barrier amounts, but on 10-15s CDs.

    Then you could have things like unnerfed Warrior's Cunning as a hard counter and be fair.

    Edit: if they did that, then impact savant should have the vitality penalty removed.

    Or they could make the +50% damage only affect the barrier itself, or thry could make it pierce through barrier like unblockable does to blocks. It's really easy, and I don't understand how they botched the design so much.

    Because its probably not as easy as you're making out.

    It would be easier to make barrier traits grant more barrier, but with 10-15s CDs, and then give a few classes anti barrier traits like prenerfed Warrior's Cunning. It could be things like increased condition damage, or condition durations. Barrier needs a hard counter to it.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    anti barrier traits could make the barrier timer (currently 5 sec) degrade faster, something like 1s faster degrade on a 1s icd. i like the bonus damage vs any barrier tho and yeah it shouldn't be too high, something like 10-15% is cool.
    cents, 2 of them.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    Rather than creating more anti-barrier traits, I'd prefer them to simply reduce the barrier generation in PvP.

    Introducing more anti-barrier traits might cause Arenanet to also introduce more barrier-using enemies in PvE,
    which would end up being another massive pain in the bacon.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Rather than creating more anti-barrier traits, I'd prefer them to simply reduce the barrier generation in PvP.

    Introducing more anti-barrier traits might cause Arenanet to also introduce more barrier-using enemies in PvE,
    which would end up being another massive pain in the bacon.

    I disagree. Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2021

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

    You can always just making the game harder by taking off your gear and using a less effective build.
    There literally is no need to make the game harder (and for many people this also means more tedious and less enjoyable) for people who don't want it.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    they should just make barrier degrade over its duration. that way you GAIN or are GIVEN barrier when you are about to get hit, instead off kitten spaming it off cooldown

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Rather than creating more anti-barrier traits, I'd prefer them to simply reduce the barrier generation in PvP.

    Introducing more anti-barrier traits might cause Arenanet to also introduce more barrier-using enemies in PvE,
    which would end up being another massive pain in the bacon.

    I disagree. Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

    Lmao, slapping more boons and more hp/barrier on enemies in PvE =/= challenging content, it'll still be no brainer but longer fight, how you even came up with that conclusion is beyond me. Only few classes can deal with boons in PvE, same goes for barrier...

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    they should just make barrier degrade over its duration. that way you GAIN or are GIVEN barrier when you are about to get hit, instead off kitten spaming it off cooldown

    This is how barrier was when it was first released. What we have now is what they changed it to.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

    You can always just making the game harder by taking off your gear and using a less effective build.
    There literally is no need to make the game harder (and for many people this also means more tedious and less enjoyable) for people who don't want it.

    Nah, I spent too much effort making Purple Gear to do that. Besides just making enemies hit harder does not necessarily make them more difficult gameplay wise.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Rather than creating more anti-barrier traits, I'd prefer them to simply reduce the barrier generation in PvP.

    Introducing more anti-barrier traits might cause Arenanet to also introduce more barrier-using enemies in PvE,
    which would end up being another massive pain in the bacon.

    I disagree. Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

    Lmao, slapping more boons and more hp/barrier on enemies in PvE =/= challenging content, it'll still be no brainer but longer fight, how you even came up with that conclusion is beyond me. Only few classes can deal with boons in PvE, same goes for barrier...

    Because having more mechanics to counter and overcome raises the difficulty in a more meaningful way than giving damage floaters an extra digit.

    From what I recall every class in PvE has access to Sigils of Nullification and Absorption, so every class can deal with boons in PvE. Barrier, well hasn't this conversation turned to having more anti barrier traits in the game?

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I disagree. Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

    a better way to do that would be to reduce the 10 sec window in between pve mob attacks, have them move out of damage/ dodge, do combo attacks (stun + burst), and actually change tactics every now and then. for some reason i'm always disappointed when i start a new game and all i encounter are hp sponges and 1 hit kills/ cc lock mobs. its like no one wants to design actual artificial intelligence but cater to the lowest skilled person (or masochists) to supply them with low strength dopamine fuel.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I disagree. Enemies in PvE need more boons and barrier to make it actually challenging and let anti boon and anti barrier traits be useful there. But that is my opinion.

    a better way to do that would be to reduce the 10 sec window in between pve mob attacks, have them move out of damage/ dodge, do combo attacks (stun + burst), and actually change tactics every now and then. for some reason i'm always disappointed when i start a new game and all i encounter are hp sponges and 1 hit kills/ cc lock mobs. its like no one wants to design actual artificial intelligence but cater to the lowest skilled person (or masochists) to supply them with low strength dopamine fuel.

    Yeah, but can you imagine the typical GW2 player in a PvE environment like that?

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    they should just make barrier degrade over its duration. that way you GAIN or are GIVEN barrier when you are about to get hit, instead off kitten spaming it off cooldown

    Totally agree. It should spike when first cast, and then degrade proportionally each second until it becomes 0 upon expiration.

    Kensuda
    NA Support Guardian

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    An idea for a fix would be to make barrier like any other buff source where they don't stack.

    So if 2x Scourges are in a team and were to use their heal utilities that use barrier at the same time, only the stronger barrier would apply to the team.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    An idea for a fix would be to make barrier like any other buff source where they don't stack.

    So if 2x Scourges are in a team and were to use their heal utilities that use barrier at the same time, only the stronger barrier would apply to the team.

    That would work.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    An idea for a fix would be to make barrier like any other buff source where they don't stack.

    So if 2x Scourges are in a team and were to use their heal utilities that use barrier at the same time, only the stronger barrier would apply to the team.

    That would work.

    Barrier stacks from other barrier sources should stack, just not sources from the same exact skill.

    So a scourge could land sand shades on you with barrier and stack that barrier with his heal utility, but a 2nd scourge doing the same thing, his sand shades and utility would not stack with the 1st scourge's skills.

  • Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

    Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @QuirkyDM.2351 said:
    Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

    Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

    At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely again.
    The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

  • @Kodama.6453 said:

    @QuirkyDM.2351 said:
    Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

    Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

    At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely again.
    The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

    They would have to rework scourge completely also

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @QuirkyDM.2351 said:
    Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

    Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

    At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely again.
    The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

    It would have to become:

    Impact Savant: Gain100%/50% of the damage you inflict as barrier. CD of 5s/10s (PvE/Competitive spits).

    Or something like that.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @QuirkyDM.2351 said:
    Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

    Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

    At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely again.
    The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

    It would have to become:

    Impact Savant: Gain100%/50% of the damage you inflict as barrier. CD of 5s/10s (PvE/Competitive spits).

    Or something like that.

    I fear that even with a change like that, the trait would simply feel terrible to use.
    Your suggestion would mean that you always want to open a fight with a hard hitting skill to get the most out of this trait.
    And now here is the funny thing... which options do you actually have for these?

    Our hard hitting skills are either multi-hits (ex: grenade barrage, mine field) which won't work with this trait since the first small hit will trigger it and put it on CD, or they are highly telegraphed so that you won't hit them unless the enemy is CCed (ex: rocket). And using CC is not really an option either since most CC spells deal a tiny amount of damage, triggering the trait for a laughable small barrier once again.
    I guess the only real combo that would make sense with this trait would be magnet into prybar in this case....

    Engineer just is not designed to work with this kind of trait.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2021

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @QuirkyDM.2351 said:
    Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

    Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

    At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely again.
    The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

    It would have to become:

    Impact Savant: Gain100%/50% of the damage you inflict as barrier. CD of 5s/10s (PvE/Competitive spits).

    Or something like that.

    I fear that even with a change like that, the trait would simply feel terrible to use.
    Your suggestion would mean that you always want to open a fight with a hard hitting skill to get the most out of this trait.
    And now here is the funny thing... which options do you actually have for these?

    Our hard hitting skills are either multi-hits (ex: grenade barrage, mine field) which won't work with this trait since the first small hit will trigger it and put it on CD, or they are highly telegraphed so that you won't hit them unless the enemy is CCed (ex: rocket). And using CC is not really an option either since most CC spells deal a tiny amount of damage, triggering the trait for a laughable small barrier once again.
    I guess the only real combo that would make sense with this trait would be magnet into prybar in this case....

    Engineer just is not designed to work with this kind of trait.

    its problematic for scourge since it leans hard on barrier to stay alive, since its squishier than reaper.

    isn't there some trait or something they can buff to make it feel better for engi?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @QuirkyDM.2351 said:
    Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

    Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

    At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely again.
    The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

    It would have to become:

    Impact Savant: Gain100%/50% of the damage you inflict as barrier. CD of 5s/10s (PvE/Competitive spits).

    Or something like that.

    I fear that even with a change like that, the trait would simply feel terrible to use.
    Your suggestion would mean that you always want to open a fight with a hard hitting skill to get the most out of this trait.
    And now here is the funny thing... which options do you actually have for these?

    Our hard hitting skills are either multi-hits (ex: grenade barrage, mine field) which won't work with this trait since the first small hit will trigger it and put it on CD, or they are highly telegraphed so that you won't hit them unless the enemy is CCed (ex: rocket). And using CC is not really an option either since most CC spells deal a tiny amount of damage, triggering the trait for a laughable small barrier once again.
    I guess the only real combo that would make sense with this trait would be magnet into prybar in this case....

    Engineer just is not designed to work with this kind of trait.

    True... I tend to forget about that. Scrapper is my favorite Engi spec, but I don't play it nearly enough. Outside of Explosives I haven't really encountered barrier to be a problem versus an engineer though, so I suppose this debate is more centered on Scourge+Blood Bank in the end. Perhaps give it the Dhuumfire treatment?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @QuirkyDM.2351 said:
    Non stacking barrier sounds like a good idea. Though it does make blood bank somewhat useless again. Blood bank works well because of all the continuous leeching that happens from blood magic, minions and other sources. Same with Runes of Sanctuary. Most necros get a big boost off these based on all the little damage that adds up. And considering that necros have no other damage mitigation techniques, this is the tough part.

    Maybe maximum barrier needs to limited to something less than half hit points. Maybe not based off base hitpoints at all. 5K max, period.

    At least that's just an optional trait becoming useless. If barrier becomes non-stacking, this would result in Anet having to rework scrapper entirely again.
    The power damage into barrier conversion just works well because you can stack multiple hits up to a good amount of barrier, this change would make this minor trait absolutely useless.

    It would have to become:

    Impact Savant: Gain100%/50% of the damage you inflict as barrier. CD of 5s/10s (PvE/Competitive spits).

    Or something like that.

    I fear that even with a change like that, the trait would simply feel terrible to use.
    Your suggestion would mean that you always want to open a fight with a hard hitting skill to get the most out of this trait.
    And now here is the funny thing... which options do you actually have for these?

    Our hard hitting skills are either multi-hits (ex: grenade barrage, mine field) which won't work with this trait since the first small hit will trigger it and put it on CD, or they are highly telegraphed so that you won't hit them unless the enemy is CCed (ex: rocket). And using CC is not really an option either since most CC spells deal a tiny amount of damage, triggering the trait for a laughable small barrier once again.
    I guess the only real combo that would make sense with this trait would be magnet into prybar in this case....

    Engineer just is not designed to work with this kind of trait.

    True... I tend to forget about that. Scrapper is my favorite Engi spec, but I don't play it nearly enough. Outside of Explosives I haven't really encountered barrier to be a problem versus an engineer though, so I suppose this debate is more centered on Scourge+Blood Bank in the end. Perhaps give it the Dhuumfire treatment?

    It's just Blood Bank, Rune Of Sanctuary, and how they synergize with constant life stealing and heals from other supports.

    Blood Bank just needs to be changed and Rune Of Sanctuary probably shouldn't be working with life steal. When you have 2x life steal traits that do not have CDs on them, every AoE thrown out in team fights, especially multi tick attacks like wells or Axe 2 or Dagger 2, is generating a ton of barrier. Like A LOT of barrier.

    After playing Scourge a lot lately, to take advantage of what's going on, I can say that it isn't the AoE party support from barrier that is the problem. It is the self sustain on the Scourge that is the problem. That self sustain is coming from the broken interaction with Blood Bank + Rune Of Sanctuary + massive Life Steal.

    So you tell me how to fix it. But that is definitely what's wrong here. If the Scourge itself was a killable target, it wouldn't be such a problem.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Arenanet should just remove Blood bank and put back in Vampiric Rituals.

    And Superior Rune of Sanctuary should either be reduced to 10% or only work on overheal.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    It's just Blood Bank, Rune Of Sanctuary, and how they synergize with constant life stealing and heals from other supports.
    Blood Bank just needs to be changed and Rune Of Sanctuary probably shouldn't be working with life steal. When you have 2x life steal traits that do not have CDs on them, every AoE thrown out in team fights, especially multi tick attacks like wells or Axe 2 or Dagger 2, is generating a ton of barrier. Like A LOT of barrier.

    You know I never used those runes on my necro. I'm surprised they work on life stealing.

    After playing Scourge a lot lately, to take advantage of what's going on, I can say that it isn't the AoE party support from barrier that is the problem. It is the self sustain on the Scourge that is the problem. That self sustain is coming from the broken interaction with Blood Bank + Rune Of Sanctuary + massive Life Steal.

    So you tell me how to fix it. But that is definitely what's wrong here. If the Scourge itself was a killable target, it wouldn't be such a problem.

    I'll have to throw the runes on my necro and dive into it sometime in the next few days. But I propose the question to you Trevor, without Blood Bank how is the build? Without Runes of Sanctuary how is the build? Without Healing Power how is the build? It might not be the Healing Power from the amulet that is the problem, it might not be the runes, it might not even be the trait. I suspect at this point it has more to do with the Runes of Sanctuary proccing off of life stealing. But it's better to pick the build apart piece by piece to see which part ultimately breaks it and address that specific piece rather than taking the lazy path of removing an amulet.