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Please reevaluate barrier

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  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    It's just Blood Bank, Rune Of Sanctuary, and how they synergize with constant life stealing and heals from other supports.
    Blood Bank just needs to be changed and Rune Of Sanctuary probably shouldn't be working with life steal. When you have 2x life steal traits that do not have CDs on them, every AoE thrown out in team fights, especially multi tick attacks like wells or Axe 2 or Dagger 2, is generating a ton of barrier. Like A LOT of barrier.

    You know I never used those runes on my necro. I'm surprised they work on life stealing.

    After playing Scourge a lot lately, to take advantage of what's going on, I can say that it isn't the AoE party support from barrier that is the problem. It is the self sustain on the Scourge that is the problem. That self sustain is coming from the broken interaction with Blood Bank + Rune Of Sanctuary + massive Life Steal.

    So you tell me how to fix it. But that is definitely what's wrong here. If the Scourge itself was a killable target, it wouldn't be such a problem.

    I'll have to throw the runes on my necro and dive into it sometime in the next few days. But I propose the question to you Trevor, without Blood Bank how is the build? Without Runes of Sanctuary how is the build? Without Healing Power how is the build? It might not be the Healing Power from the amulet that is the problem, it might not be the runes, it might not even be the trait. I suspect at this point it has more to do with the Runes of Sanctuary proccing off of life stealing. But it's better to pick the build apart piece by piece to see which part ultimately breaks it and address that specific piece rather than taking the lazy path of removing an amulet.

    Ok you ask actual good questions that are important, so let me elaborate on this with an actual video demonstration.

    People need to see what's going on if they don't yet understand it:

  • Very good video, @Trevor Boyer.6524 .

    For non-scourge necromancers, Blood Bank is the opportunity to compensate for one of shroud's biggest weaknesses: no healing in shroud. Blood Bank provides a method of allowing a "heal", provided you're at full health going into shroud, which would also allow longer time in shroud, enhancing a necromancer's usefulness. Reapers and core necros going into shroud at 100% is a somewhat rare occurrence from my experience. And I honestly don't know if any non-Scourge builds use blood bank.

    Scourge doesn't have this shroud weakness, so they can always benefit from incoming healing. Considering that Scourges can already heal and provide barrier reliably, it is not difficult to be at 100% health and then proc blood bank. And once you start procing it, it's hard to overcome the barrier.

    Maybe the solution should be that blood bank only procs while in shroud. Any healing received while in shroud applies barrier. (regardless of health level) Desert shroud is 6 seconds long, so Scourges would have limited time to use this and even if they did, the barrier disappears in 5s. Chances are the barrier would go to waste since Desert Shroud already provides a large amount of barrier. Or if you don't want to remove the Blood Bank utility out of shroud completely, have it only proc at a lower percent when out of shroud and still allow full proc when in shroud.

    I think this would serve to not only reduce Blood Bank utility for Scourges, but make it more appealing for other necros that can't get any decent use out of Blood Bank.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    It's just Blood Bank, Rune Of Sanctuary, and how they synergize with constant life stealing and heals from other supports.
    Blood Bank just needs to be changed and Rune Of Sanctuary probably shouldn't be working with life steal. When you have 2x life steal traits that do not have CDs on them, every AoE thrown out in team fights, especially multi tick attacks like wells or Axe 2 or Dagger 2, is generating a ton of barrier. Like A LOT of barrier.

    You know I never used those runes on my necro. I'm surprised they work on life stealing.

    After playing Scourge a lot lately, to take advantage of what's going on, I can say that it isn't the AoE party support from barrier that is the problem. It is the self sustain on the Scourge that is the problem. That self sustain is coming from the broken interaction with Blood Bank + Rune Of Sanctuary + massive Life Steal.

    So you tell me how to fix it. But that is definitely what's wrong here. If the Scourge itself was a killable target, it wouldn't be such a problem.

    I'll have to throw the runes on my necro and dive into it sometime in the next few days. But I propose the question to you Trevor, without Blood Bank how is the build? Without Runes of Sanctuary how is the build? Without Healing Power how is the build? It might not be the Healing Power from the amulet that is the problem, it might not be the runes, it might not even be the trait. I suspect at this point it has more to do with the Runes of Sanctuary proccing off of life stealing. But it's better to pick the build apart piece by piece to see which part ultimately breaks it and address that specific piece rather than taking the lazy path of removing an amulet.

    Ok you ask actual good questions that are important, so let me elaborate on this with an actual video demonstration.

    People need to see what's going on if they don't yet understand it:

    Awesome video. I wish you had time in it to swap amulets and see how it goes without the +1000 healing power, which if it were still broken would indicate to the Devs that the amulet isn't the problem.

    My take away from the video:
    1. Just life steal and Runes of Sanct. isn't broken.
    2. Just life steal and Blood Bank isn't broken.
    3. The fact that it is ANY incoming healing source may very well be the biggest problem in a match, and this could be fixed like how Abrasive Gift was fixed.
    4. Together BB+Sanctuary is a extra 120% 'healing' from all non-regeneration based healing which sticks out to me as the breaking point on top of scourge's other sources of barrier.

    This makes Blood Magic's life stealing into something like 276 barrier per AA if you are hitting 2 targets on each hit, and it is a fast hitting AA chain, so I can see how it adds up fast. Dagger 2 is giving you something like 4.5k on the setup (9 pulses, 415 healing per pulse, at full hp with sant and BB is ~4500 barrier).

    It seems to me that what needs to happen is that Blood Bank needs a mode split for 50% in PvP at least. That may be too big of a nerf, but Dagger 2 would give you something closer to 2.6k barrier and the AA life steal procs would give 161 barrier for each pair of targets. Its a question then of what output rate is fine? I'm personally convinced now that the issue isn't the rune, or the amulet, or even the rune proccing off of life steal. It very much seems to be the 100% conversion rate from Blood Bank.

    EDIT: I think dropping Healing Power altogether would only reduce the barrier gain on dagger 2 to 3.4k, or 75% less barrier and the Barrier gain per 2 foes on AA hits to 182, a 66% reduction in barrier. Its a good data point to consider in what amount to adjust Blood Bank too. Getting rid of each 1000 healing power amulet will not solve the problem.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2021

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    It's just Blood Bank, Rune Of Sanctuary, and how they synergize with constant life stealing and heals from other supports.
    Blood Bank just needs to be changed and Rune Of Sanctuary probably shouldn't be working with life steal. When you have 2x life steal traits that do not have CDs on them, every AoE thrown out in team fights, especially multi tick attacks like wells or Axe 2 or Dagger 2, is generating a ton of barrier. Like A LOT of barrier.

    You know I never used those runes on my necro. I'm surprised they work on life stealing.

    After playing Scourge a lot lately, to take advantage of what's going on, I can say that it isn't the AoE party support from barrier that is the problem. It is the self sustain on the Scourge that is the problem. That self sustain is coming from the broken interaction with Blood Bank + Rune Of Sanctuary + massive Life Steal.

    So you tell me how to fix it. But that is definitely what's wrong here. If the Scourge itself was a killable target, it wouldn't be such a problem.

    I'll have to throw the runes on my necro and dive into it sometime in the next few days. But I propose the question to you Trevor, without Blood Bank how is the build? Without Runes of Sanctuary how is the build? Without Healing Power how is the build? It might not be the Healing Power from the amulet that is the problem, it might not be the runes, it might not even be the trait. I suspect at this point it has more to do with the Runes of Sanctuary proccing off of life stealing. But it's better to pick the build apart piece by piece to see which part ultimately breaks it and address that specific piece rather than taking the lazy path of removing an amulet.

    Ok you ask actual good questions that are important, so let me elaborate on this with an actual video demonstration.

    People need to see what's going on if they don't yet understand it:

    Awesome video. I wish you had time in it to swap amulets and see how it goes without the +1000 healing power, which if it were still broken would indicate to the Devs that the amulet isn't the problem.

    My take away from the video:
    1. Just life steal and Runes of Sanct. isn't broken.
    2. Just life steal and Blood Bank isn't broken.
    3. The fact that it is ANY incoming healing source may very well be the biggest problem in a match, and this could be fixed like how Abrasive Gift was fixed.
    4. Together BB+Sanctuary is a extra 120% 'healing' from all non-regeneration based healing which sticks out to me as the breaking point on top of scourge's other sources of barrier.

    This makes Blood Magic's life stealing into something like 276 barrier per AA if you are hitting 2 targets on each hit, and it is a fast hitting AA chain, so I can see how it adds up fast. Dagger 2 is giving you something like 4.5k on the setup (9 pulses, 415 healing per pulse, at full hp with sant and BB is ~4500 barrier).

    It seems to me that what needs to happen is that Blood Bank needs a mode split for 50% in PvP at least. That may be too big of a nerf, but Dagger 2 would give you something closer to 2.6k barrier and the AA life steal procs would give 161 barrier for each pair of targets. Its a question then of what output rate is fine? I'm personally convinced now that the issue isn't the rune, or the amulet, or even the rune proccing off of life steal. It very much seems to be the 100% conversion rate from Blood Bank.

    EDIT: I think dropping Healing Power altogether would only reduce the barrier gain on dagger 2 to 3.4k, or 75% less barrier and the Barrier gain per 2 foes on AA hits to 182, a 66% reduction in barrier. Its a good data point to consider in what amount to adjust Blood Bank too. Getting rid of each 1000 healing power amulet will not solve the problem.

    It's definitely not the fault of the amulets. Its' the traits & rune that are just amplifying things to a ridiculous extent.

    I just went in game and ran some tests while running full dps amulets like Sinister as example. You still benefit significant barrier/life steal padding just latently because of how Blood Bank/Sanctuary synergizes. Any other class/build would have their support gimmick bottomed out if they didn't run heal stat. This shows that it's the traits & the rune that are powerful, not the amulets.

    It would be unfair to remove mender/marshal from other classes for this reason, and in general it dumbs down our in-game options which isn't good.

    And what happens when Mender/Marshal is gone? Well then Scourges will use Sage and we'll have the same problem with a different mathematical skew. Now the Scourges deal damage and still have a lot of support. The counter offensive pressure from the damage will make up for the loss in barrier. If they don't use Sage, they'll use Avatar and it'll still be good support that is complained about and a bit more damage than they have now. <- You see the problem is not amulets, it is the strength of the class Scourge, regardless of what amulet it is wearing.

    Arenanet must stop this "just remove it" game philosophy. It is only ruining the game mode and avoiding the actual balance issues.

    They need to address Rune Of Sanctuary and Blood Bank. They do not need to remove more amulets. Removing amulets is killing the dynamic of the game mode. It's actually destroying the 4 job role dynamic that has always been good, an reducing it to this shallow meta of "things that are somehow all team fights and supports at the same time" and then "thief for decaps and +"

    If they keep down this route, long gone will be the days of: Team Fighter / Support / Roamer +er / Side Node Duelist or Bunker.

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    I personally think barriers need to be toned down across the board.

  • SteepledHat.1345SteepledHat.1345 Member ✭✭✭

    Just make barrier a boon and let it be strip/steal-able

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Just make barrier a boon and let it be strip/steal-able

    Wouldn’t help classes with no way to strip boons tho.

  • @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Just make barrier a boon and let it be strip/steal-able

    Wouldn’t help classes with no way to strip boons tho.

    But, it would help the classes that have boon strips, which somehow are already counters to a degree to classes that have access to barrier.
    Looks at teef icon ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Just make barrier a boon and let it be strip/steal-able

    Wouldn’t help classes with no way to strip boons tho.

    But, it would help the classes that have boon strips, which somehow are already counters to a degree to classes that have access to barrier.
    Looks at teef icon ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    If that’s the case then they don’t need any more help lol

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    I personally think barriers need to be toned down across the board.

    Barrier application brought with it plenty of nerfs....nerfs that would no need to exist otherwise

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    Buffing core buffs elites also....so I doubt that's what on your mind and I remind you that average ranger needs barrier more than average ele...we're used to dodge for dear life already but your average ranger can't...and will use protect me as a lifeline more times than not

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    Buffing core buffs elites also....so I doubt that's what on your mind and I remind you that average ranger needs barrier more than average ele...we're used to dodge for dear life already but your average ranger can't...and will use protect me as a lifeline more times than not

    thats the entire point, if you buff core. elites become overpowered. By nerfing barrier you hit both scourge, AND weaver, meaning you can buff core ele without making weaver overpowered as kitten.

    As for protect-me giving barrier, nobody relies on it man, you can get away without using it easy peasy, its just a really kitten good due to synergy it has with other traits.
    barrier = effective hp
    gives regen = hp
    gives protection = barrier is more effective + heal due to traits
    signet of stone can replace protect me fairly easily

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    Buffing core buffs elites also....so I doubt that's what on your mind and I remind you that average ranger needs barrier more than average ele...we're used to dodge for dear life already but your average ranger can't...and will use protect me as a lifeline more times than not

    thats the entire point, if you buff core. elites become overpowered. By nerfing barrier you hit both scourge, AND weaver, meaning you can buff core ele without making weaver overpowered as kitten.

    As for protect-me giving barrier, nobody relies on it man, you can get away without using it easy peasy, its just a really kitten good due to synergy it has with other traits.
    barrier = effective hp
    gives regen = hp
    gives protection = barrier is more effective + heal due to traits
    signet of stone can replace protect me fairly easily

    The more you buff core ele, the less reliance on barrier will be, the end result would not change

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    Buffing core buffs elites also....so I doubt that's what on your mind and I remind you that average ranger needs barrier more than average ele...we're used to dodge for dear life already but your average ranger can't...and will use protect me as a lifeline more times than not

    thats the entire point, if you buff core. elites become overpowered. By nerfing barrier you hit both scourge, AND weaver, meaning you can buff core ele without making weaver overpowered as kitten.

    As for protect-me giving barrier, nobody relies on it man, you can get away without using it easy peasy, its just a really kitten good due to synergy it has with other traits.
    barrier = effective hp
    gives regen = hp
    gives protection = barrier is more effective + heal due to traits
    signet of stone can replace protect me fairly easily

    The more you buff core ele, the less reliance on barrier will be, the end result would not change

    which is the kitten point ?
    core ele becomes stronger, weaver stays as strong as it is right now

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    Buffing core buffs elites also....so I doubt that's what on your mind and I remind you that average ranger needs barrier more than average ele...we're used to dodge for dear life already but your average ranger can't...and will use protect me as a lifeline more times than not

    thats the entire point, if you buff core. elites become overpowered. By nerfing barrier you hit both scourge, AND weaver, meaning you can buff core ele without making weaver overpowered as kitten.

    As for protect-me giving barrier, nobody relies on it man, you can get away without using it easy peasy, its just a really kitten good due to synergy it has with other traits.
    barrier = effective hp
    gives regen = hp
    gives protection = barrier is more effective + heal due to traits
    signet of stone can replace protect me fairly easily

    The more you buff core ele, the less reliance on barrier will be, the end result would not change

    which is the kitten point ?
    core ele becomes stronger, weaver stays as strong as it is right now

    Unexpected reply, I am used to people wishing to gut everything but the profession they play, so much that it's uncommon for somebody here asking for buffs to another class

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    I personally think barriers need to be toned down across the board.

    Barrier application brought with it plenty of nerfs....nerfs that would no need to exist otherwise

    Yeah, and then everything was nerfed in the doomsday patch while barriers remained unchanged from what I can recall. Unless I’m missing something in a more recent nerflogs.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    I personally think barriers need to be toned down across the board.

    Barrier application brought with it plenty of nerfs....nerfs that would no need to exist otherwise

    Yeah, and then everything was nerfed in the doomsday patch while barriers remained unchanged from what I can recall. Unless I’m missing something in a more recent nerflogs.

    Yeah it's called selective memory ...they recently nerfed both stone resonance(trait and utility) and the trait giving out barrier on dodges...nerfed it twice

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

    1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art
    2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship
    3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution
    4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy
    ....

    Too lazy to type other professions

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Abyssisis.3971Abyssisis.3971 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2021

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Abyssisis.3971 said:
    I personally think barriers need to be toned down across the board.

    Barrier application brought with it plenty of nerfs....nerfs that would no need to exist otherwise

    Yeah, and then everything was nerfed in the doomsday patch while barriers remained unchanged from what I can recall. Unless I’m missing something in a more recent nerflogs.

    Yeah it's called short memory ...they recently nerfed both stone resonance(trait and utility) and the trait giving out barrier on dodges...nerfed it twice

    My memory generally doesn’t include ele stuff as I don’t play the class, I stick to ranger and guardian. Guess I’ll see how weaver goes when I get back home and able to pvp without being on mobile hotspot.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy

    Scrapper's hammer specifically gets buffed with explosion tag on hammer 2 for explosives synergy
    "Let's forbid scrapper to take explosives!"

    404 logic not found.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

    1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art
    2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship
    3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution
    4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy
    ....

    Too lazy to type other professions

    if you take mirage you lose access to honor and dignity of a human being

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

    1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art
    2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship
    3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution
    4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy
    ....

    Too lazy to type other professions

    if you take mirage you lose access to honor and dignity of a human being

    No no, that happens when you decide to run condies on any class.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

    1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art
    2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship
    3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution
    4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy
    ....

    Too lazy to type other professions

    if you take mirage you lose access to honor and dignity of a human being

    No no, that happens when you decide to run condies on any class.

    I find it interesting that loads of people complain about 1shots and bursts, yet are 100% fine with power builds and absolutely hate condis

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

    1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art
    2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship
    3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution
    4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy
    ....

    Too lazy to type other professions

    if you take mirage you lose access to honor and dignity of a human being

    No no, that happens when you decide to run condies on any class.

    I find it interesting that loads of people complain about 1shots and bursts, yet are 100% fine with power builds and absolutely hate condis

    RNG, boring, annoying, uninteractive, passive, unbalanced and many others things that could describe condi in GW2. I'll probably never understand people that enjoy condies, it's one of the worst and most boring gameplays I've ever seen. Tried it few times and I feel like falling asleep by using them, 0 fun or entertainment.
    They should stay as "support" mechanic, but instead they were changed into this abomination because PvE complained about bosses.
    Giving so much freedom by A-net was a curse, which in long run took away that "freedom".

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    Applies to power as well, because of crit.

    boring, annoying

    Highly subjective, other people might say the same for power builds.

    uninteractive, passive

    Depends on the builds you are running, but the fact that you can cleanse conditions unlike power damage adds interactivity in my opinion.

    I personally use power builds 90% of the time myself, but I think many of your statements are not really fair for the archetype.

    They should stay as "support" mechanic, but instead they were changed into this abomination because PvE complained about bosses.

    Problem is they were never truly designed as "support" mechanic to begin with.
    Bleed always did nothing but ticking damage, so how is that supportive? Same for burning.
    And if you have a weapon like engineer's pistol, which was always condition focused with very little power damage, how is that weapon supposed to function with conditions not being usable as a main damage source?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

    1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art
    2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship
    3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution
    4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy
    ....

    Too lazy to type other professions

    if you take mirage you lose access to honor and dignity of a human being

    No no, that happens when you decide to run condies on any class.

    I find it interesting that loads of people complain about 1shots and bursts, yet are 100% fine with power builds and absolutely hate condis

    RNG, boring, annoying, uninteractive, passive, unbalanced and many others things that could describe condi in GW2. I'll probably never understand people that enjoy condies, it's one of the worst and most boring gameplays I've ever seen. Tried it few times and I feel like falling asleep by using them, 0 fun or entertainment.
    They should stay as "support" mechanic, but instead they were changed into this abomination because PvE complained about bosses.
    Giving so much freedom by A-net was a curse, which in long run took away that "freedom".

    RNG? how is condi rng? it has set damage and it deals this damage, its the power that is rng with crit chance and weakness glancing, making hits jump between 2k and 8k from the same skill
    Balanced? almost every meta is power meta
    Passive? depends on the build really
    annoying and boring is subjective, I like condis as they bring something new to the game and add a new layer to combat, instead off current brainded I landed 3 skills so you die

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

    1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art
    2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship
    3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution
    4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy
    ....

    Too lazy to type other professions

    if you take mirage you lose access to honor and dignity of a human being

    No no, that happens when you decide to run condies on any class.

    I find it interesting that loads of people complain about 1shots and bursts, yet are 100% fine with power builds and absolutely hate condis

    RNG, boring, annoying, uninteractive, passive, unbalanced and many others things that could describe condi in GW2. I'll probably never understand people that enjoy condies, it's one of the worst and most boring gameplays I've ever seen. Tried it few times and I feel like falling asleep by using them, 0 fun or entertainment.
    They should stay as "support" mechanic, but instead they were changed into this abomination because PvE complained about bosses.
    Giving so much freedom by A-net was a curse, which in long run took away that "freedom".

    RNG? how is condi rng? it has set damage and it deals this damage, its the power that is rng with crit chance and weakness glancing, making hits jump between 2k and 8k from the same skill
    Balanced? almost every meta is power meta
    Passive? depends on the build really
    annoying and boring is subjective, I like condis as they bring something new to the game and add a new layer to combat, instead off current brainded I landed 3 skills so you die

    The reason why people prefer power is because those 3 hit kill requires mostly a glassy set up that can be either dodged or blocked way easily than condi attacks, which tend to be AoE on short CD( necro wells, scepter, focus - mesmer shatter, clone bounces etc etc etc) and condi burst still requires a single stats investment and doesn't require the player to pay any particular attention to the enemy....just unload everything you have and doesn't matter whether he dodges or not.

    Realistically speaking the meta is power only at the top where people can coordinate well enough to bring down condi bunkers, from there all the way down is full condi spam and that cannot be negated given the huge presence of necros, burning build and others.

    In WvW smallscale is dominated by condi builds too and the only reason condi doesn't dominate zerg fight is due to Purity of Purpose

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

    1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art
    2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship
    3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution
    4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy
    ....

    Too lazy to type other professions

    if you take mirage you lose access to honor and dignity of a human being

    No no, that happens when you decide to run condies on any class.

    I find it interesting that loads of people complain about 1shots and bursts, yet are 100% fine with power builds and absolutely hate condis

    RNG, boring, annoying, uninteractive, passive, unbalanced and many others things that could describe condi in GW2. I'll probably never understand people that enjoy condies, it's one of the worst and most boring gameplays I've ever seen. Tried it few times and I feel like falling asleep by using them, 0 fun or entertainment.
    They should stay as "support" mechanic, but instead they were changed into this abomination because PvE complained about bosses.
    Giving so much freedom by A-net was a curse, which in long run took away that "freedom".

    RNG? how is condi rng? it has set damage and it deals this damage, its the power that is rng with crit chance and weakness glancing, making hits jump between 2k and 8k from the same skill
    Balanced? almost every meta is power meta
    Passive? depends on the build really
    annoying and boring is subjective, I like condis as they bring something new to the game and add a new layer to combat, instead off current brainded I landed 3 skills so you die

    The reason why people prefer power is because those 3 hit kill requires mostly a glassy set up that can be either dodged or blocked way easily than condi attacks, which tend to be AoE on short CD( necro wells, scepter, focus - mesmer shatter, clone bounces etc etc etc) and condi burst still requires a single stats investment and doesn't require the player to pay any particular attention to the enemy....just unload everything you have and doesn't matter whether he dodges or not.

    Realistically speaking the meta is power only at the top where people can coordinate well enough to bring down condi bunkers, from there all the way down is full condi spam and that cannot be negated given the huge presence of necros, burning build and others.

    In WvW smallscale is dominated by condi builds too and the only reason condi doesn't dominate zerg fight is due to Purity of Purpose

    exept power shatter has like half the CD off condi one and most classes dont get pulsing aoe condi kitten and those that do dont even do all that much damage and are easy to cleanse
    in fact most power builds are more degenerate then condi, cough thief perma-stealthing, rev teleporting through walls with quickness and unblockable.
    And meta is power since power kills you NOW, and condi kills you MAYBE in the next X secounds, giving time for people to heal, cleanse, escape, invuln or get healed by teammates. Mechanically power is superior and has LESS counterplay so its played more often.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

    1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art
    2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship
    3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution
    4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy
    ....

    Too lazy to type other professions

    if you take mirage you lose access to honor and dignity of a human being

    No no, that happens when you decide to run condies on any class.

    I find it interesting that loads of people complain about 1shots and bursts, yet are 100% fine with power builds and absolutely hate condis

    RNG, boring, annoying, uninteractive, passive, unbalanced and many others things that could describe condi in GW2. I'll probably never understand people that enjoy condies, it's one of the worst and most boring gameplays I've ever seen. Tried it few times and I feel like falling asleep by using them, 0 fun or entertainment.
    They should stay as "support" mechanic, but instead they were changed into this abomination because PvE complained about bosses.
    Giving so much freedom by A-net was a curse, which in long run took away that "freedom".

    RNG? how is condi rng? it has set damage and it deals this damage, its the power that is rng with crit chance and weakness glancing, making hits jump between 2k and 8k from the same skill
    Balanced? almost every meta is power meta
    Passive? depends on the build really
    annoying and boring is subjective, I like condis as they bring something new to the game and add a new layer to combat, instead off current brainded I landed 3 skills so you die

    The reason why people prefer power is because those 3 hit kill requires mostly a glassy set up that can be either dodged or blocked way easily than condi attacks, which tend to be AoE on short CD( necro wells, scepter, focus - mesmer shatter, clone bounces etc etc etc) and condi burst still requires a single stats investment and doesn't require the player to pay any particular attention to the enemy....just unload everything you have and doesn't matter whether he dodges or not.

    Realistically speaking the meta is power only at the top where people can coordinate well enough to bring down condi bunkers, from there all the way down is full condi spam and that cannot be negated given the huge presence of necros, burning build and others.

    In WvW smallscale is dominated by condi builds too and the only reason condi doesn't dominate zerg fight is due to Purity of Purpose

    exept power shatter has like half the CD off condi one and most classes dont get pulsing aoe condi kitten and those that do dont even do all that much damage and are easy to cleanse
    in fact most power builds are more degenerate then condi, cough thief perma-stealthing, rev teleporting through walls with quickness and unblockable.
    And meta is power since power kills you NOW, and condi kills you MAYBE in the next X secounds, giving time for people to heal, cleanse, escape, invuln or get healed by teammates. Mechanically power is superior and has LESS counterplay so its played more often.

    Power doesn't kill you now unless you're both glass and you get caught by surprise with no CD left, condi kills you regardless of what stats you are running as it depends all on how many condi cleanse have you got left, we had this discussion on this forum countless times already , power is all about mind games where condis is all about using skills off CD to overwhelm opponent condi cleanse , all the while you're tanky as hell

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 lol you say that power doesnt kill you unless you have no CD left and then say condi kills you when you run out of cleanse.
    isnt this the same kitten ?
    Same way power build tries to overwhelm your defences and take you down, condi build does the same exept you also have to go through cleanse

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    RNG? how is condi rng? it has set damage and it deals this damage, its the power that is rng with crit chance and weakness glancing, making hits jump between 2k and 8k from the same skill

    I guess he is referencing the fact that many classes have traits with a chance to inflict conditions on enemies.

    Examples:

    • sharpshooter (engi firearms minor), double RNG components, since it requires you to crit and then has 33% chance to inflict bleed on that crit
    • sharpened edges (ranger skirmishing major), same like sharpshooter
    • barbed precision (necromancer curses minor), same like sharpshooter
    • incendiary powder (engi firearms major), the RNG component here is crit
  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Arheundel.6451 lol you say that power doesnt kill you unless you have no CD left and then say condi kills you when you run out of cleanse.
    isnt this the same kitten ?
    Same way power build tries to overwhelm your defences and take you down, condi build does the same exept you also have to go through cleanse

    You can try all you want in convincing yourself that condi build are equal to power builds in terms of effort requirements....that won't change the actual facts : to play condi builds you need a single stats...rest goes all in defense , easier than trying to juggle between dmg, sustain, crit dmg and precision that must reach a certain threshold to be actually useful: crit chance 40%+ and crit dmg 185%+ to be worth the investment

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Arheundel.6451 lol you say that power doesnt kill you unless you have no CD left and then say condi kills you when you run out of cleanse.
    isnt this the same kitten ?
    Same way power build tries to overwhelm your defences and take you down, condi build does the same exept you also have to go through cleanse

    You can try all you want in convincing yourself that condi build are equal to power builds in terms of effort requirements....that won't change the actual facts : to play condi builds you need a single stats...rest goes all in defense , easier than trying to juggle between dmg, sustain, crit dmg and precision that must reach a certain threshold to be actually useful: crit chance 40%+ and crit dmg 185%+ to be worth the investment

    show me that magical amulet that gives only condition damage and survival stats.
    oh wait, the only 100% effective stat amulets are power, cough cough berk/maruder/demolisher, everything condi is forced to take power/precision

    @Kodama.6453
    this is also what I suspected, but thos traits usually suck or are REALLY small portion of the damage, expecially after feb where you dont even get much if any crit chance on condi builds, meanwhile every single power build will juggle RNG damage, even running 95% crit chance soulbeast I still have times where maul-> WI just doesnt crit and enemy runs away # praise rng

  • Jayce.5632Jayce.5632 Member ✭✭
    edited April 8, 2021

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Arheundel.6451 lol you say that power doesnt kill you unless you have no CD left and then say condi kills you when you run out of cleanse.
    isnt this the same kitten ?
    Same way power build tries to overwhelm your defences and take you down, condi build does the same exept you also have to go through cleanse

    You can try all you want in convincing yourself that condi build are equal to power builds in terms of effort requirements....that won't change the actual facts : to play condi builds you need a single stats...rest goes all in defense , easier than trying to juggle between dmg, sustain, crit dmg and precision that must reach a certain threshold to be actually useful: crit chance 40%+ and crit dmg 185%+ to be worth the investment

    So what we need is either:

    1) A true one stat Condition Damage Amulet. Since we don't need those defensive stats or Power mucking up the point allocation, let's just put those numbers to good use and add them to the one we do need. 3000 Condition Damage primary with no secondaries Amulet should work here.

    2) Condition Damage has been uncoupled from Power Damage and is now affected by Precision, Ferocity, Weakness, Armor, and Protection. Bleeding, Burning, Confusion, Poison, and Torment can no longer be removed. Damaging Conditions from a single source will no longer stack in intensity, only in duration.

    But hey, why stop there. I'm generally curious now to see what a critical heal looks like against light and heavy armored allies under various condition effects such as vulnerability for the ally and/or weakness for the caster. Thank you for this.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    just make barrier decay after like 2-3s, its all it takes. If you do that you might actually be able to buff core ele without making weaver broken for example

    We can buff core ele by nerfing all other core professions , claiming that nerfs to weaver would benefit core ele at all...
    I don't know who you are trying to convince....

    im claiming that buffing core ele would make weaver overpowered, so by nerfing barrier ( weaver ) we make space for core buffs

    It won't work and you even wrote why, but still belive that nerfing barrier would make a space for core buffs, which still would be a buff Weaver indirectly(even Tempest).
    The real problem here is that most e-speces are built on top of core classes, which include Elementalist.
    Look at Necromancer and it's Reaper and Scourge, do you see how it really do change how you play your class? Compare it to Eles Tempest or Weaver:
    Tempest: whirly stuff, added just few skills ON TOP of Core mechanic and that's it.
    Weaver: added few skills, copy-paste of teef and that's it.
    Nothing is "different" in playstyle, you do the same kitten with few more button presses and effects.
    In Necromancers case, you can buff it's Unique skills, which won't affect it's e-spec counterparts.
    Elementalist doesn't have anything Unique to buff that it wouldn't affect e-speces, none, which is the real problem with this class(and many others).
    I was thinking about "locking-out" specific traitlines for e-speces, e.g.:
    If you pick Tempest, you lose access to Water and losing as well traitable skills (Cantrips);
    If you pick Weaver, you lose access to Arcane and losing as well traitable skills (Arcane);
    Core of course would be able to pick both Water and Arcane.
    This way you could buff traitlines which mostly core could take advantage of them fully, but I'm pretty sure it would create it own balance problems...
    Too lazy to think about solutions~

    1) if you pick Deadeye or daredevil you lose access to Shadow art
    2) if you pick druid, you lose access to beastmaster, if you pick soulbeast you lose access to Markmanship
    3) if you pick Herald you lose access to Invocation, if you pick Renegade you lose access to Retribution
    4) if you pick Spellbreaker you lose access to Strength, if you pick Berseker you lose access to Discipline
    5) if you pick Scrapper you lose access to Explosive, if you pick Holosmith you lose access to Alchemy
    ....

    Too lazy to type other professions

    if you take mirage you lose access to honor and dignity of a human being

    No no, that happens when you decide to run condies on any class.

    I find it interesting that loads of people complain about 1shots and bursts, yet are 100% fine with power builds and absolutely hate condis

    RNG, boring, annoying, uninteractive, passive, unbalanced and many others things that could describe condi in GW2. I'll probably never understand people that enjoy condies, it's one of the worst and most boring gameplays I've ever seen. Tried it few times and I feel like falling asleep by using them, 0 fun or entertainment.
    They should stay as "support" mechanic, but instead they were changed into this abomination because PvE complained about bosses.
    Giving so much freedom by A-net was a curse, which in long run took away that "freedom".

    I like condis

    You need to go wash your mouth out with soap.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Arheundel.6451 lol you say that power doesnt kill you unless you have no CD left and then say condi kills you when you run out of cleanse.
    isnt this the same kitten ?
    Same way power build tries to overwhelm your defences and take you down, condi build does the same exept you also have to go through cleanse

    You can try all you want in convincing yourself that condi build are equal to power builds in terms of effort requirements....that won't change the actual facts : to play condi builds you need a single stats...rest goes all in defense , easier than trying to juggle between dmg, sustain, crit dmg and precision that must reach a certain threshold to be actually useful: crit chance 40%+ and crit dmg 185%+ to be worth the investment

    no, condi builds require MORE effort to play optimaly then power builds, in power builds you have X,Y,Z nukes and you toss them together and fill with other skills.
    with condi you need to actually know how much and when your enemy cleanses, and sometimes even NOT attack them to not put your damaging condition on top of the cleansing list, meanwhile power is hurr durr me do dmg.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    What we need is more Barrier pierce or Barrier breaking traits.

    And didn't they nerf warrior's trait for that almost as soon as they released it? Shame, would be helpful now wouldn't it?

    If they want to hand out barrier-busting traits I request they rework minor traits which apply barrier passively. It's really not fair, for instance, to have glass weavers taking massively increased damage from warriors just because every dual attack applies a small amount of barrier. That sort of trait is meant to punish builds that invest heavily into barrier with trait selections and utility, but as usual we'll cause the problem for other builds instead!

    Would not be fair for a single trait to counter a whole class/spec as well.
    If you still insist on that idea I want a trait for necro that just ignores all blocks and invulns of enemies it hits. Seems pretty busted right?