So what do you all want Specifically to be changed about Firebrand?

I see a lot of Request to nerf Firebrand Guardians. So what specifically do you want changed?

MI. /morecharacters

mmm...

lessen but strengthen the mantras from 3 to 2 - like other classes

@Sovereign.1093 said:mmm...

lessen but strengthen the mantras from 3 to 2 - like other classes

So that's all

I don't think people realize how integral fb is at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if people are forced to take 2 guards if fb is nerfed in any big way.

other support classes need access to critical boons like stab/ prot/ resist, but they won't cuz anet has decided that theme+identity > variance+viability.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I don't think people realize how integral fb is at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if people are forced to take 2 guards if fb is nerfed in any big way.

other support classes need access to critical boons like stab/ prot/ resist, but they won't cuz anet has decided that theme+identity > variance+viability.

Increase jalis zerker whammer, and Ventari user ;)

It’s fun to get out of the Spam meta.

The moment FB gets an heavy nerf is the moment this forum will be flooded with flame.

Who stealths and pushs first wins.

People think that just cause enemies are able to push and kill you, its all cause of firebrands. While its true that the class does offer benefits on making movements but a ton of players are completely blindfolded by the real reasons of death - you are dieing cause you are facing DPS classes that can 2 shot you to the floor with a push of a button.

It is not firebrands fault that DPS classes has the ability to kill everyone way too fast. If anyone who complains about firebrand had even played from years 2012-2015 then you would know for a fact that back then stability didnt get removed so heavily like these days, meaning melee pushes were very frequent and guess what, nobody died on the first pushes (aside newcomers to WvW).All the 1 shot magic started to came out on HoT rlease when revenant was released amongst with class specs (not to mention stability nerf which killed melee gameplay for many years to follow).

Stop complaining about firebrands making any sort of melee movements possible and complain about the real actual cause - DPS being way too damn high.

You dont see players in games like World Of Warcraft 2-3 shoting in PvP. Imageon the outcry if that were the case.

Unnerf Boon Chrono.

Revert Stand Your Ground back to 5 targets

Nerf Merciful Invervention's res to 10%

Make all anti-projectile skills only able to block/reflect 10 attacks.

Do not allow reflected attacks to hit allies.

Make Tome 3, 3 block projectiles instead of reflect them.

Also stop hating on ranger longbow. You're just making it worse btw. It's Firebrand/Scourge, and ranger counters half of that. But because FB can just instantly undo any sniping, well... why do I have to even say this?

As for the rest, form an actual comp, get on real builds/classes and organize. Otherwise, you'll still get run over by a group that is running whatever the meta is.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I don't think people realize how integral fb is at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if people are forced to take 2 guards if fb is nerfed in any big way.

other support classes need access to critical boons like stab/ prot/ resist, but they won't cuz anet has decided that theme+identity > variance+viability.

Quoted for truth.

Also, it's not necessarily that there's an overall lack of critical boon application like that, but that there is such a gross overabundance of other resources (control effects, offensive boons etc.) that people generally do not value the perfectly usable critical boons provided by eg., Scrappers, Elementalists or Mesmers. There's so much spam of CC that the spam of Book 3 is the only feasible offset. There is so much spam of soft CC that adding Scrappers ontop is required to keep up. There is so much spam of might and fury (and relative traits) that prot has become so much more valuable. That is the problem here, scarcity and application creates value.

Compare the ease of getting 25 might to the ease of getting 25 stab to the ease of stacking 25 hard-CC effects or rips. You will see stability grossly lagging behind and that is what makes the FB so valuable. He has the most stab and he has the only spammable stab that can mitigate some of the rip/CC bombs.

That something is extremely valuable is not the same as being overpowered. The alternative is to play the not-get-to-move and not-get-to-press-buttons game. Who wants to play that? The only people who would advocate such a thing is useless bagfarmers who hide behind the tags they want to nerf but will also leave the mode the second that same tag does not carry them. The people who are bad at moving and pressing buttons so they want to bring everyone else down to their own level.

@Arctisavange.7261 said:People think that just cause enemies are able to push and kill you, its all cause of firebrands. While its true that the class does offer benefits on making movements but a ton of players are completely blindfolded by the real reasons of death - you are dieing cause you are facing DPS classes that can 2 shot you to the floor with a push of a button.

It is not firebrands fault that DPS classes has the ability to kill everyone way too fast. If anyone who complains about firebrand had even played from years 2012-2015 then you would know for a fact that back then stability didnt get removed so heavily like these days, meaning melee pushes were very frequent and guess what, nobody died on the first pushes (aside newcomers to WvW).All the 1 shot magic started to came out on HoT rlease when revenant was released amongst with class specs (not to mention stability nerf which killed melee gameplay for many years to follow).

Stop complaining about firebrands making any sort of melee movements possible and complain about the real actual cause - DPS being way too kitten high.

You dont see players in games like World Of Warcraft 2-3 shoting in PvP. Imageon the outcry if that were the case.

You only got half the problem correct. DPS is wildly out of tune at the moment, but a big contributing factor to BOTH DPS and FB issues is one thing: Boon Spam.

Boons are ridiculously overtuned and overproduced, and Anet’s solution was to buff DPS and boon removal like Scourge and Spellbreaker while never actually addressing the real issue. They started to by gutting chrono, but when Firebrand came along it threw things way out of proportion. It was bad in HoT, but not THIS bad.

FB needs major nerfs, but so does DPS, CC, and boon removal, and until we see major reductions to all of them, things will just stay the same.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:other support classes need access to critical boons like stab/ prot/ resist, but they won't cuz anet has decided that theme+identity > variance+viability.I think support chrono would probably want a word with you on that point.

Honestly ANet shot themselves in the foot by making a game with no specialist roles, then introducing specialist roles with xpacs. So the specialist, erm, specialisations, are either going to be best in slot or utterly pointless as a result. It doesn't help that guardian was already the central support for WvW before that either.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:other support classes need access to critical boons like stab/ prot/ resist, but they won't cuz anet has decided that

theme+identity > variance+viability

.I think support chrono would probably want a word with you on that point.

I agree. But for the last part, since Guardians are already the themed support, why do everybody have a problem with the Firebrand Guardian doing what it does?

Maybe the game needs other combat elements to hard counter support Firebrand. Idk. Trying to see what generally people don't like about it and want changed.

I would like to see Force of Will's +300 vit changed to something else so the other two GMs would see use, both providing something interesting to the support FB table but completely overshadowed by the giant 'I get rid of guardians primary weakness of low hp' trait.

Everything else is basically fine on the support side of things. Maybe give another main hand some support options so they aren't forced into mace.

People fail to understand that yes, FB is a problem and needs to be toned down, as they are part of the power creep on the boon/sustain side, however the DPS/condi/aoe side also needs to be toned down. If you only do one or the other, things will probably get worse before they get better, as you are going to end up with far lower TTK if you nerf support, or you might end up with unkillable blobs if you only nerf the power creep.

Not that big of a deal for me, as I roam mostly, however I can see lots of unhappy people incoming who don't understand that when they are in their own blob, it's also the FB/support keeping them alive as well, not just the other side.

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:People fail to understand that yes, FB is a problem and needs to be toned down, as they are part of the power creep on the boon/sustain side, however the DPS/condi/aoe side also needs to be toned down. If you only do one or the other, things will probably get worse before they get better, as you are going to end up with far lower TTK if you nerf support, or you might end up with unkillable blobs if you only nerf the power creep.

Not that big of a deal for me, as I roam mostly, however I can see lots of unhappy people incoming who don't understand that when they are in their own blob, it's also the FB/support keeping them alive as well, not just the other side.

Nah man it ok, nerf hammer rev more and then people will need less firebrands and with less firebrands people will need less scourges. It will definitely bring chronomancer back into play as there will be more open slots for anet's reworked classes that fell out of meta over night.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I don't think people realize how integral fb is at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if people are forced to take 2 guards if fb is nerfed in any big way.

That's exactly what'll happen if they diminish FB support, right back to pre-pof 2xguard.Big group WvW needs stability, there's just too much CC being laid down.And if there's only 3 slots left per group that means less comp diversity, ancillary builds find no place.

To top it off, parceling out stability to more classes will destroy guardian.

@Arctisavange.7261 said:People think that just cause enemies are able to push and kill you, its all cause of firebrands. While its true that the class does offer benefits on making movements but a ton of players are completely blindfolded by the real reasons of death - you are dieing cause you are facing DPS classes that can 2 shot you to the floor with a push of a button.

It is not firebrands fault that DPS classes has the ability to kill everyone way too fast. If anyone who complains about firebrand had even played from years 2012-2015 then you would know for a fact that back then stability didnt get removed so heavily like these days, meaning melee pushes were very frequent and guess what, nobody died on the first pushes (aside newcomers to WvW).All the 1 shot magic started to came out on HoT rlease when revenant was released amongst with class specs (not to mention stability nerf which killed melee gameplay for many years to follow).

Stop complaining about firebrands making any sort of melee movements possible and complain about the real actual cause - DPS being way too kitten high.

You dont see players in games like World Of Warcraft 2-3 shoting in PvP. Imageon the outcry if that were the case.

this in a way is true. and that ppl just stand and take the blow. :pensive:

@phreeak.1023 said:The moment FB gets an heavy nerf is the moment this forum will be flooded with flame.

Who stealths and pushs first wins.

ah you're enlightened :)

sometimes, ppl just need to get good. :/

Boons vs corruption was always a terribad direction to take combat into, and they keep adding stuff on top to support/counter for each thing they add, more damage, more condi damage, more spike damage, more boons, more boon spamming, more condi spamming, more corruption, taking off stack limits, blasting light fields(lol), adding barriers, more shields, more stealth, and look what's next more bonus damage when fighting barriers.

So much kitten added on top, and never really kept in check no real limitations, like boons probably shouldn't last more than 30s. Firebrand and Scourges needed nerfs, but they're also the most needed classes in the game now because of how combat has evolved. Chronos were made awkward to play and is a dead spec, Scourges were made awkward to play maybe less will play them and now boon ball will get worse? Who the kitten knows.. Then Firebrands (who bring a hell of a lot more to groups than druids tempest engs do) will get nerfed 6 months down the line, front line will die and everyone will complain about pirateship as usual. Problem isn't entirely the classes, it's the systems that need looking at, the only constant through all this is health pools but everything else is going above it's limits.

Scale back the excessive Unblockable attacks and excessive Damage Bonus percentage increases and while your at it lower the number of stacks of Conditions so many of the other classes can put out as aggressively as they do on the Guardian(Ex. Eternal Armory in July they increased Burn stacks from one to two and in 3 months now the lowered it back to one stack for 4 seconds instead 3 seconds) that would go a long way to improve options in both WvW and PvP then you could scale back the FB pretty much as much as you want without handing the combat over to all of the One shot One Kill builds. They have a habit of Nerfing a couple of classes into the ground and then Buffing a couple (usually to MUCH! as shown by what happened with the Scrapper Buff than Nerf(-300 to Vitality oh wait that's to much now it's -180 they should have never touched Vitality they should have adjusted Barrier by either how much you get, how often you can get it or how long it lasts messing with Stats like that wrecks build crafting) I'm certain that the Warrior Buff is going to turn into a problem and I expect that their reaction to how to fix it is going to just as messed up as the Scrapper was.

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I don't think people realize how integral fb is at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if people are forced to take 2 guards if fb is nerfed in any big way.

FB still needs massive nerfs, but not on stability though. If the balance team gives good stability access to one or two other supports and they make it so that FB can't give 9 different boons at the same time while having the best res potential, then you won't see 2 guardians per subgroup. It's everything except for stability that needs nerfing on FB. Stability should stay. Also giving stability out to other will not destroy guardian. It's the best healer in fractals and PvP as well, and it's definitely not the stability that makes it the best in fractals. It's just plain overtuned is so many different ways except for stability. You will be fine

Just so you know this thread is related to WvW specifically, but of course they had to move it to the profession sub-forum.

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I don't think people realize how integral fb is at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if people are forced to take 2 guards if fb is nerfed in any big way.

It's the best healer in every single format by a LARGE margin. The problem is nothing should heal and provide as much support as they do and do as much damage as they do. Right now they can do every damn thing in the game, and do it well while healing. Dear god tomes need a fucking nerf from a low orbit , they can't have weapons that heal, utilities that heal, tomes that heal, every thing heal while doing damage and boonspamming, it's just too much something has to give.

@Atticus.7194 said:It's the best healer in every single format by a LARGE margin. The problem is nothing should heal and provide as much support as they do and do as much damage as they do. Right now they can do every kitten thing in the game, and do it well while healing. Dear god tomes need a kitten nerf from a low orbit , they can't have weapons that heal, utilities that heal, tomes that heal, every thing heal while doing damage and boonspamming, it's just too much something has to give.

What you are saying is completely wrong. FB is far from the best healer in terms of heal output - and yes, this includes WvW too. (Hint - scrapper/tempest/ ventari have higher raw healing than FB). In group PVE, FB is only 'accepted' in FOTMs and casual raids. Because, guess what - most opt out for no healer for fotm or 1 healer for raids. As for PVP - a support FB is utterly useless without a good scourge.. DPS to class.

The only place it slightly over-performs is WVW - and that's largely not because of healing, but boons output - specifically aegis. Aegis is he core guardian's class flavour - similar to alacrity / boon share on Chrono....Oh wait....So sure, go ahead and cry about FB being OP ---- Just keep in mind that core class identity will be erased.

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