What is a "non-cheese build"

We've heard of many abusive builds like condi spam, stealth spam, runaway, one shot builds. What exactly is a non-cheese build you would consider legit? What would be your top build that you would respect another for running for?

Ah crap the post submitted before I could finish. This must be the worst forum software I've ever seen before. It's okay, we all know the remaining classes are cheese anyways. :s

EDIT: This is about builds. if a class has 99% cheese builds, but has the most legit w/e build IYO, then you would vote that choice.

I voted anyway :)

I dont respect builds, I respect players.

I've seen what at a glance appear to be good players on good builds that afterwards whisper toxic garbage about how you suck, your guild sucks and every insult between heaven and earth (yes, I recently had a whisper with someone saying he is god just because we couldnt catch a 100% evade built kite soulbeast). They know what they play. Zero respect for everyone until they prove themselves worthy of it.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:I dont respect builds, I respect players.

I've seen what at a glance appear to be good players on good builds that afterwards whisper toxic garbage about how you suck, your guild sucks and every insult between heaven and earth (yes, I recently had a whisper with someone saying he is god just because we couldnt catch a 100% evade built kite soulbeast). They know what they play. Zero respect for everyone until they prove themselves worthy of it.

lol I notice the salt usually starts pouring in when you kill someone that drops a lot of wxp (meaning they usually escape death) and they just get very angry that they got killed.

Also seems to get worse the higher tier you go. Someone whispered and called me names because they were "helping us double team the 3rd server" and I shouldn't have killed them. And then they told me to tell my server to join in the double team. Exactly why would I assist someone that just called me a hygiene product And this was like several hours before reset so lol.

And there's also the hacking allegations for doing perfectly normal stuff. It's somewhat amazing how players cannot comprehend what is going on in a not very hard game. I guess someone got angry because they didn't know you can cata hills outer and inner at the same time.....

warrior. so weak the shout but feels good that its a viable option

Warrior control & personal sustain is pretty cheesy. Its arguably the best core profession. Don't delude yourselves. =<I guess of the four listed Guardians are generally the least cancerous by my subjective understanding of what qualifies as an non-cheese-but-legit build.

~ Kovu

Every class has a cheese build. Every class. So its impossible to pick an option in the poll.

"Anyone that beats me obvious has a cheese build."

Seems to be the closest I can find to a definition.

Also, feels relevant: https://www.nerfnow.com/comic/681

@Doug.4930 said:Every class has a cheese build. Every class. So its impossible to pick an option in the poll.

That's not the question tho. Asking about builds. Granted the poll is messed up because it posted before I could finish it.

@"joneirikb.7506" said:"Anyone that beats me obvious has a cheese build."

Seems to be the closest I can find to a definition.

Also, feels relevant: https://www.nerfnow.com/comic/681

Probably true.

There are no cheese builds. Playing to the strengths of the class and adapting to the situation to get an advantage is not cheese.

@"joneirikb.7506" said:"Anyone that beats me obvious has a cheese build."

Seems to be the closest I can find to a definition.

This

Before I share about non-cheese builds, let me share my opinions about cheese builds.

Cheese builds ignore opponent mechanics and still win

IMO, any build that allows a player to ignore the mechanics of other players' builds and still win is a cheese build.For example, Hizen vs Vaans at 16:12 in the video below.When we fight spellbreakers, we try to bait their full counters and not trigger them.But his build allows him to trigger full counters repeatedly without any care and still overwhelm Vaans.That's a cheese build to me.

Cheese builds are stealth related

I am not against stealth, but stealth combined with high damage openers/combos is cheese.Every class has one-shot or one-combo-KO builds. However, to me they are not all cheese.One-shot / one-combo-KO builds that are acceptable comes with proper animation tells and non-stealth engages.This would naturally categorize stealth one-shot builds like Invis quickness DJ/backstab Thieves, Invis bomb Engineers, Invis Maul/bear Rangers, Invis Mantra shatter Mesmers etc cheese.

So what is a non-cheese build?

Builds that requires a player to respect the mechanics of their opponent and with proper tells in their skills is a non-cheese build.In that regard, I would say most Warriors and Guardians builds are rather even when it comes to non-cheese.

Warrior is total cheese. They have shield and dmg immunity.

@"joneirikb.7506" said:"Anyone that beats me obvious has a cheese build."

Seems to be the closest I can find to a definition.

Also, feels relevant: https://www.nerfnow.com/comic/681

Bursts? Cheese build!Survives? Cheese build!Mobile? Cheese build!

I can easly kill it? Now THAT'S a pro player using a legit build!

I really dont mind condi spam, but what I do find stupid is stealth and hitting like a truck from stealth. It just makes no sense to me why you would put that in a game.And its not stealth, its totally invis.

A build bad players don't lose to.

I remember years ago when the devs called mesmer clone death builds "purple cheese." Considering what most professions can do now, I'd say everything would be labelled "cheese" based on their old metric.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:In that regard, I would say most Warriors and Guardians builds are rather even when it comes to non-cheese.Hahahaha... good joke there.

Cheese is meta, and meta is cheese. Twas ever thus.

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Before I share about non-cheese builds, let me share my opinions about cheese builds.

Cheese builds ignore opponent mechanics and still win

IMO, any build that allows a player to ignore the mechanics of other players' builds and still win is a cheese build.For example, Hizen vs Vaans at 16:12 in the video below.When we fight spellbreakers, we try to bait their full counters and not trigger them.But his build allows him to trigger full counters repeatedly without any care and still overwhelm Vaans.That's a cheese build to me.

Cheese builds are stealth related

I am not against stealth, but stealth combined with high damage openers/combos is cheese.Every class has one-shot or one-combo-KO builds. However, to me they are not all cheese.One-shot / one-combo-KO builds that are acceptable comes with proper animation tells and non-stealth engages.This would naturally categorize stealth one-shot builds like Invis quickness DJ/backstab Thieves, Invis bomb Engineers, Invis Maul/bear Rangers, Invis Mantra shatter Mesmers etc cheese.

So what is a non-cheese build?

Builds that requires a player to respect the mechanics of their opponent and with proper tells in their skills is a non-cheese build.In that regard, I would say most Warriors and Guardians builds are rather even when it comes to non-cheese.

From my experience playing mesmer full counter will be triggered by a clone if you yourself don’t trigger it. If you don’t have any clones up then it us worth stowing weapon.

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:IMO, any build that allows a player to ignore the mechanics of other players' builds and still win is a cheese build.For example, Hizen vs Vaans at 16:12 in the video below.When we fight spellbreakers, we try to bait their full counters and not trigger them.But his build allows him to trigger full counters repeatedly without any care and still overwhelm Vaans.That's a cheese build to me.

The game gives him the ability to regain full adrenaline repeatedly so he can full counter repeatedly. How is that ignoring opponent mechanics?

Also, what's so wrong about kiting outside of the duel area? Does the game disconnect him if he does? Obviously he's going to kite for his cooldowns since that's the way the game works. Or is standing around inside some made-up area to get hit by the opponent what you mean by not ignoring opponent mechanics?

@Chaba.5410 said:The game gives him the ability to regain full adrenaline repeatedly so he can full counter repeatedly. How is that ignoring opponent mechanics?

Also, what's so wrong about kiting outside of the duel area? Does the game disconnect him if he does? Obviously he's going to kite for his cooldowns since that's the way the game works. Or is standing around inside some made-up area to get hit by the opponent what you mean by not ignoring opponent mechanics?

It's ignoring the game mechanics because you're supposed to be able to not activate the full counter when the war uses it by not attacking the war. However it is not possible for a mesmer as clones automatically make it proc.

Why can't people just range the full counter? If they just keep using it, well...

@"Dawdler.8521" said:I dont respect builds, I respect players.

I've seen what at a glance appear to be good players on good builds that afterwards whisper toxic garbage about how you suck, your guild sucks and every insult between heaven and earth (yes, I recently had a whisper with someone saying he is god just because we couldnt catch a 100% evade built kite soulbeast). They know what they play. Zero respect for everyone until they prove themselves worthy of it.

I'm of similar opinion here. I let solo roamers have their 1v1's or 1vX without adding to the fight, and will intentionally engage them for my own 1v1's even if I know they're better than me because it's good practice ( and usually fun even if I lose ). If they've been rude in the past by sending messages, bm or what have you, I still respect that they're skilled, but I won't respect their opportunities for good fights. I'll outnumber them if I get the chance and I'll avoid fighting them 1 on 1 because it tends to be 100x more effective bm than corpse jumping ( ::triggered:: "can't 1v1 so bad" ).

I know lots of players that are very good that I don't like. I still respect that they're skilled and take extra caution when fighting them, I just don't respect their space.

A cheese build is any build not so severely screwed up that it has no chance to win the encounters it finds itself in.

WvW has always been a cheesefest.

But then that is to be expected when:

• The combat in GW2 itself is not particularly skilled, so running whatever build/class/composition is strong counts more than it does in more skilled games. (and skill counts less)
• That as a game mode WvW is basically non-functional, so unlike most PvP games where the game mode provides a large slice of balance (and skill), WvW provides virtually none.
• The classes/combat/mechanics were designed around a completely different game mode (5v5 conquest PvP) and break to varying degrees when transferred to WvW, so again a larger gap between what is weak and strong (or cheese as people refer to it)