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Upcoming Changes to Fall Damage and Revival

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  • Sarrs.4831Sarrs.4831 Member ✭✭✭

    Signet of Mercy change seems strange. Guardians still have that Signet proliferation trait right? It seems like this might mess with boonstackers' builds whereas healing power would scale infinitely. I don't think it's a problem if you're boonstacking on your own, though, it'd let you fit a piece of Marshal's in instead of Seraph's or whatever.

    That new Curses trait looks very appealing, though. I like that it's not Fear-based with how many Reaper control skills not being Fear-based. The Signet of Undeath passive change is also interesting; there's a very silly Signets of Suffering build hidden in there.

    I'm a bit worried about the WvW concerns as well. While it's not what I do in WvW I can see why it'd be useful to load up your Scourges and Warriors with these traits to strip stacks of Stab.

  • Largo Cifer.3495Largo Cifer.3495 Member ✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    I hope Anet doesn't make these changes right away after seeing all the negative reactions on the fall damage and signets change from the majority of the player base. In my opinion the fall damage traits should be left as it is and if there are still buffs needed to the trait, do it on the other bonus it has. Personally, i feel these traits are in a good position and doesn't affect the balance of the game in any manner so, better leave them untouched.

    "All the talent in this world won't take you anywhere without your Teammates
    Trust them, Res them, Support them
    "

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    No reduction to engi's Toss Elixir R cooldown while powering up everyone else's ress skills...feels sad. Currently 99% of peoples don't seem to even know about its existence due to how niche it's considered. (Though even more clutch than necroresses in certain situations.)
    Though guess Kitty can still laugh about falling to death on her heal engi.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who recorded videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks. Not active anymore.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    Necromancer

    The cast time reductionon on Signet of Undeath is huge. The current skill's cast time is so long that every other resurrection technique across all professions is both faster and more reliable. The ground targeting tacks on additional time and effort to cast time. The AoE diameter was another reason for failure as it was not large enough to capture 3 targets outside of PvE stacking. Trying to overlap more than one target added real cast time. The signet also does not provide any other group benefits. It is extremely stingy and easy to make fail.

    The new version will still be a challenge with its ground targeting and substantial cast time but it will probably be more useful. I do not think anyone will miss the deletion of 2 targets. Concerns about PvP with all of the fast res'ing are warranted so please set up an open beta preview weekend.

    The large health sacrifice on the revised Signet of Undeath, though, is very Necro-like and will result in Necro needing incoming healing from babysitters. Is that going to actually be a reasonable play style? Will taking SoU be valuable enough to pay for a babysitting build?

    How failures will be handled? Will a health shortage trigger Unholy Sanctuary? Will it fail to consume health if it fails to proc on a target and res' successfully? Will barrier help or even be required?

    One last question is whether it will be competitive with the revised res skills of other professions.

    Insidious Disruption reminds me of Reaper's Protection, which did not have Protection until it was changed into Dark Defiance. Anyway, I like the Torment more than a Fear proc because of Necromancer's limited mobility. Make the ICD reasonably low, please.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    I am on the side of those who do not really care about the fall damage reduction so ok.

    For the rez changes I just think that Guard rez + defense changes look crazy. The mesmer feedback also looks super strong (maybe too much?) and will become one of the top rez (Large aoe rez + immune to projectiles).

  • Laivine.9308Laivine.9308 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    Please do not remove fall damage reduction from WvW. Nobody was annoyed from this trait, neither asked to be changed all those years.

  • Xion.5694Xion.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    Hi Robert,

    Thank you for sharing the Quality of Life part of Balance Update and a sneak peek on the Rez skills changes.

    I really love the changes with Fall Damage Reduction traits.
    It means a lot to me, as a player, that you and balance team focuses on such important ascpect of this game while preparing for balance updates.

    From my experience I can only share that, as you pointed out, I've never took them, beside WvW, where we cant glide as we please nor use mounts masteries.
    I hope that you thought about WvW community while planning this changes, as those were a life saviour in many scenarios.
    Not to mention the satisfaction, when chased by holo you jump down the cliff avoiding death, but the oppent splats.

    Love to hear more about the rest of planned changes in the Balance patch.
    Please keep the good work going!

  • Well, the Necro change will be strong for condi Reapers.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I was about to be real upset fall damage was going and revival was being reworked but I overreacted and this is actually really good

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Regh.8649Regh.8649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Largo Cifer.3495 said:
    I hope Anet doesn't make these changes right away after seeing all the negative reactions on the fall damage and signets change from the majority of the player base. In my opinion the fall damage traits should be left as it is and if there are still buffs needed to the trait, do it on the other bonus it has. Personally, i feel these traits are in a good position and doesn't affect the balance of the game in any manner so, better leave them untouched.

    And what does this "majority of player base" takes positively?
    I don´t agree with every change, but the goal seems pretty much clear and viable, so I welcome the changes.

    Formula for success: Rise early, work hard, strike oil.

  • Lesser grenade barrage
    Having lesser grenade barrage on healing skill use seems weird to me. If I wanan heal I sure as hell dont wanna sit ontop of the enemy player in most cases. Hhow about changing it to cast lesser nade barrage when equipping nade kit or something more offensive rather than mixing defensive plays with offensive ones

  • Tiny Doom.4380Tiny Doom.4380 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm curious as to who you think your audience is if you imagine they're finding the description of falling damage reduction over-complicated. It's about as straightforward and basic a concept as you could imagine. If that's too complicated then most of the game must be completely incomprehensible.

    I'll also +1 the request to split this between game modes, if you insist on going ahead with the pointless and unecessary change. I've survived so many lemming rushes over cliffs in WvW thanks to having fall reduction traited. Bear in mind that gliding is frequently not an option in that game mode and there are no flying or hovering mounts there. The original functionality of the trait in WvW is largely unchanged after seven years.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    edited out. Was answered.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
    No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

    At least some of us expected using Signet of Undeath with 50% health, or less, and going straight to downed state would not be possible. The concerns are over someone else easily one-shotting the Necro during, or immediately after, the skill use.

    Consider splitting the health cost with the available LF pool.

  • Kain Francois.4328Kain Francois.4328 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    The changes for PvP and WvW are completely understood.

    However, do keep in mind many of us do favor the fall damage traits for when we really need them. Not just for JPs, but also for the Twisted Castle raid, and maybe even Chak Gerent's Nuhoch lane.

    Because of that, I'm holding out hope for the damage reduction to become a mastery. Maybe for LS5, or maybe even a new line for Core Tyria masteries? (The latter I think would make it more accessible to new players.)

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Donari.5237 said:

    @Treize.3578 said:

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
    Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

    Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.
    The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

    I'll add that since Griffonrook is made so you can do it without the bomb, many if not most seem to ignore the bomb mechanic in favor of taking the time needed to line up the tricky jumps since the final chest really doesn't hold much worth the effort of a speed run. The bomb buff only lasts 3 minutes, and that only if you make it that long without taking any damage, so to get the jp achieve or the skyscale the bomb is bypassed. Now you want to require people to use a timed, easily lost buff to navigate this puzzle's legitimate path without dying? I hope you're willing to hand out huge bundles of free revive orbs.

    and what is wrong with expecting people to do a JP as the designer intended? O_o

    I have nothing against people coming with alternate solutions but "you shouldn't make X changes because people will have to do the content as designed" is a weird stance. Fall damage reduction is not even required for Griffonrook if you are not carrying the bomb since you have all the time in the world to heal up before making any of the big jumps.

  • Cronos.6532Cronos.6532 Member ✭✭✭

    That's some really thoughtful balance consideration. I don't think the bomb needs the fall reduction buff, though, as most people don't do that JP with the fall reduction trait.

    Though it might leave some players confused; many people also run the JP without the bomb just for the achievement or whatever without actually opening the chest. With this change, running with the bomb will be easier, then players who decide to give up on the bomb will suddenly experience an increase in difficulty. Perhaps give the whole JP area a unique buff, or make it so the bomb is mandatory for the achievement. I like all these changes, but I wouldn't add the buff at all.

    signature

  • Treize.3578Treize.3578 Member ✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Reverielle.3972 said:

    Games are for fun/relaxation/enjoyment, but just what those things are varies from players to player, so in the end for the most part development must persist with their vision of the game (we all know you cannot please everyone). After all it is their game, not ours. We choose to play or not. The game is not a public service, and we do not have any rights as such to demand X or Y from them.

    Can we then please have raids that are not possible to success with less than 10 players fighting perfect?

  • While you're in the process of making toss R unblockable; can you do the same with all elixir tosses? Random reflects counteracting toss U's superspeed is annoying and shouldn't be a thing as they don't do any damage. Please/thanks

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kolzi.5928 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    You guys need to change twisted castle then. RIght now you have two options to make that jump, dodge roll of the edge or fall damage trait. However, dodge rolling off the edge is counter intuitive with no in game explanation. By dodge rolling off the ledge, you fall faster, but don't die from the fall. That's incredibly confusing.

    Edit: people don't believe me, so I made a video showing this:

    That jump isn't part of the intended way of doing things, it's a player-found shortcut, so worrying about it being counter intuitive is a bit silly imo :p It's still totally doable.

    Yes but it is also part of the meta now. Any new players who watch a video or even just play with a player who has any experience are going to encounter this and think it is the correct path.

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @Donari.5237 said:

    @Treize.3578 said:

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
    Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

    Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.
    The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

    I'll add that since Griffonrook is made so you can do it without the bomb, many if not most seem to ignore the bomb mechanic in favor of taking the time needed to line up the tricky jumps since the final chest really doesn't hold much worth the effort of a speed run. The bomb buff only lasts 3 minutes, and that only if you make it that long without taking any damage, so to get the jp achieve or the skyscale the bomb is bypassed. Now you want to require people to use a timed, easily lost buff to navigate this puzzle's legitimate path without dying? I hope you're willing to hand out huge bundles of free revive orbs.

    and what is wrong with expecting people to do a JP as the designer intended? O_o

    I have nothing against people coming with alternate solutions but "you shouldn't make X changes because people will have to do the content as designed" is a weird stance. Fall damage reduction is not even required for Griffonrook if you are not carrying the bomb since you have all the time in the world to heal up before making any of the big jumps.

    I don't have a problem with people porting. Since Anet is reading this thread though, I wish they would make the area around the chest kick you to the beginning when you log back in. I really don't agree with people placing 70 toons at a chest and just logging them on one at a time for free loot every day.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • I have a suggestion for WvW fall damage. Why not create a new upgrade line like you did for gliding and the warclaw? Have it tier up to different amounts of fall damage resistance and have the final tier be a CC effect like what Warrior currently has. It seems to me that this would be an effective way of keeping the mechanic in WvW without adding it to traits or skills.

  • Za Shaloc.3908Za Shaloc.3908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Robert Gee.9246, does your team have any plans on creating a new rez trait and/or skill for Revenant? Currently it is the only class that has no access to one.

  • I have a suggestion for WvW since it is very needed there only. Rather than completely deleting the trait effects, move the effects into a new WvW Mastery, and each profession gets their respective effect after acquiring it. Of course they keep their current cooldowns and all.

  • I like the revive changes and think they will be interesting in all modes

  • Ragi.7291Ragi.7291 Member ✭✭✭

    @Robert Gee.9246

    Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
    No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

    Yes, health is a resource and it is very good that there are skills with health strokes.
    But unlike adrenaline, initiative or other.
    When you lose life by inflicting damage or conditions on yourself, you go into combat and so you run slower, you can't regenerate yourself,... (all the disadvantages of the combat mode)
    A thief who uses weapon skills for stealthy past with a combo or tp and moves, he does not go into combat strangely though, he uses a resource (initiative).
    Isn't that strange?

    Putting more and more skills like that is good, but putting it on the class that has the least mobility, the least means of passing out of combat, and the only class that needs a baby sitter if it doesn't want to be demolished, which is gardian in competitive modes.
    It's very strange, especially since most of the skills that ask us to sacrifice ourselves are far from being good compared to other classes that don't ask for any sacrifice.

    If the active sign of it really someone definitely dead and not just a target down.
    The active would be played, but from what we see here, it's not the case.

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Stalwart Courage (Courageous Return) is definitely too strong.
    Talked this one over with Cal and we're going to split the protection duration in PvP/WvW to 1 second. We considered an ICD for this trait, but think it's more interesting without it so we will only add one if this split proves insufficient to balance it.

    Can you reconsider this split? At the moment this split heavily favors FB because FB has significant aegis access. With no ICD that means every aegis removed will grant protection, however with DH and Core you don't really have a lot of aegis unless you opt for super niche builds, so the benefit is less than what it would be under an ICD. Given how much stronger FB is than DH/Core in sPvP, wouldn't it be better to opt for the change that has more benefit for the latter two over the former? At 1s its really doesn't have any impact unless you run FB. Something like a 10 or even 15s ICD wouldn't be that different for FB over the current split but would be a nice buff for DH/Core.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    @Treize.3578 said:

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
    Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

    Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.
    The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

    just use two portalers or something
    but I don't think being able to cheese content needs to be something that's taken into consideration when making changes to the game

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Treize.3578 said:
    The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips.

    If by "portal skips" you mean "ways to allow people to gain reward without effort", then sure... yes.

    With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys.

    1. There are 11 other dailies. 3 in PvE. No one is being denied their 2g because you can't cheese a JP for them.
    2. Why should achievements be given to people who do not achieve them?

    We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

    I don't think there's really anything "special" about helping someone get reward for zero effort.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • Kondor.2904Kondor.2904 Member ✭✭✭

    Can people, who find this fall dmg reduction so incredibly useful in wvw, give some examples ? Because I do play wvw myself, mostly roaming, and I have yet to witness any real benefit to me or my enemy from the trait. Although, I do get annoyed when it triggers the icd if I fail to anticipate the height when jumping off something.

  • Falling damage traits are unique and beautiful.

    Losing them would be a tragedy.

  • Reverielle.3972Reverielle.3972 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Treize.3578 said:

    @Reverielle.3972 said:

    Games are for fun/relaxation/enjoyment, but just what those things are varies from players to player, so in the end for the most part development must persist with their vision of the game (we all know you cannot please everyone). After all it is their game, not ours. We choose to play or not. The game is not a public service, and we do not have any rights as such to demand X or Y from them.

    Can we then please have raids that are not possible to success with less than 10 players fighting perfect?

    It's not really relevant, and somewhat of a clumsy retort, but sure, if that becomes part of Anet's vision for the game to have such difficult content that it can't be completely by anyone but the very best, then so be it. It's not really the point of this thread though is it.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reapex.8546 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Why? what is the point in all of this? Why not focus on actual balance issues like druids and chronomancers..

    I don't see anything wrong with druids after all the nerfs.

    The fact no one uses them outside of raids and maybe fractals says different.

  • Petcho.3256Petcho.3256 Member
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Moira Shalaar.5620

    JPs:
    Removing fall damage not only impacts those who regularly run JPs & portal trains as mentioned earlier by @Treize.3578, but also impacts those who are unskilled at jumping puzzles, for whom this trait may mean the difference between restarting part way through, and having to jump back to the nearest unlocked waypoint and run back to the beginning and start all over again. While the first is frustrating, I can guarantee that the second is going to end up being the difference between retrying and giving up for some of those trying to learn.

    Honestly don't see where you are coming from at all. When the game first came out, people had to restart JP's all the time and most of them didn't give up. What they were left with was a sense of accomplishment instead for actually doing it themselves. Now JP's are just a huge freaking joke, seeing clusters of 20+ people standing still waiting for a portal to the end is just sad.
    I am fully aware that this is a really unpopular opinion, but I honestly wish they would disable portals in jumping puzzles. If people cant do them as intended then why do them at all.

  • edited November 9, 2019

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
    Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

    Hello. Would you consider adding it to the Not So Secret jumping puzzle as well? This is already one of the least forgiving JP in the game, and while it's not necessarily a game changer for the people climbing, it's very valuable to the people making portals for those who struggle to reach the chest, or worse, the diving goggles. In other words, keeping fall damage reduction in this JP would mostly help those who help others.

    I understand you can probably use that last sentence to make a case for any jumping puzzle, but other hard jumping puzzles usually have some mechanic to alleviate the difficulty, like NPCs that will rez you when you fall, checkpoints, or an easy way to restart. The Not So Secret JP has none, and this is the only reason why I think you should make an exception for it.

  • Reverielle.3972Reverielle.3972 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Gamander.7269 said:

    @Reverielle.3972 said:

    @Treize.3578 said:

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
    Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

    Hi, this is Trixx from [PINK] Community Portal, the EU JP portal guild.
    The reduced falling damage is essential for many portal skips. A save way down is often blocked due to the no flight/mount zones and only with a fall damage reducing trait a save portal to the end of a jumping puzzle is possible. With this changes you will lock out the ppl that can not jump, due handicaps or lack of patience or skill or ... , from achievements and dailys. We provide a special service to the communtiy and we won't be able to continue this service in its entirety with these future changes.

    I'm fairly sure Jumping puzzles were never meant to be 'risk free' parts of the game, nor were they designed to be skipped and completed in many ways they are today. Many are are designed to be challenging content, either exploratory wise (finding the right path) or mechanically wise (being able to make the right jump). Players that are too impatient (that is all jumping puzzles essentially really need: patience, this is coming from a bad jumper myself) simply must accept not to do them. Players need to realise that there will - and should - be some challenging aspects in the game, and many jumping puzzles were designed to fall under that category. The game can't continually be simplified/diluted down to the lowest common denominator.

    Think before you babble. Jumping puzzles are required content for all legendary weapon precursors. If you make portals impossible you exclude handicapped players from completing any precursor collection.

    So? That's part of the legendary weapon journey. It has always been the intent of development to span multiple play-styles/requirements on the journey to getting a legendary. "They’re designed to stand out and show everyone that you are a true master of Guild Wars 2". These are the top items in the game. You do have to do some work, and put in some effort for them, you know? Your comment makes me think you have not been playing the game (or at least paying attention) for very long.

  • mbhalo.1547mbhalo.1547 Member ✭✭✭

    @Robert Gee

    How about giving us a craftable gizmo that gives temporary fall damage reduction as a compromise.

  • @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:

    First of all: thanks for the reaction!

    One thing I was missing is a stance on the damage-on-heal issue engineers would have. Putting a damaging skill on healing is something that puts players longer into combat or out of stealth exactly at moments they might not want to do exactly that. There are always situations when you want to heal but want to avoid damage. This comes especially if it is combined with a trait everyone using that kit would call essential. Please: reconsider combining healing with damage. It would make for terrible game-play.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    teef and revs gets only nerfs, no compensate .... i feel GG again