Sevenshot needs a nerf (WvW)

[Loke.1429]

Half second activation / cast time, 7sec cd,
798 (x7) coeff 2,19 (coeff per hit 0.31)

+7 stacks of torment

the damage also comes out in so fast, like below a second. Double dips on a power skill (with way too high base dmg) with a lot of condi. The 7sec cd is the most ridiculous part.

I realise most rev players wont agree, but im posting here nonetheless

The fact that the power portion of this skill was untouched during the feb 2020 balance patch is really confusing.

I have no idea about pve benchmarks, but ask for this in wvw. It is already weaker in pvp (0.24 coeff per hit).

Edited September 12, 2021 by Loke.1429
more context and typos

[Ragnarox.9601]

this is only revenant build that is viable, everything else sucks. 

[RabbitUp.8294]

It's the only way left for revenant to do ranged damage at this point. I agree that this skill is overtuned, but before nerfing it, they really need to fix hammer and remove some of shortbow clunkiness (like not having skill 4 be cancelled if you move in front of the center of the circle during the cast)

[Za Shaloc.3908]

26 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

It's the only way left for revenant to do ranged damage at this point. I agree that this skill is overtuned, but before nerfing it, they really need to fix hammer and remove some of shortbow clunkiness (like not having skill 4 be cancelled if you move in front of the center of the circle during the cast)

I think this is a pretty fair take tbh.

Sevenshot was true garbage before it got reworked but they brought it from like a 2 to a 10 and made it too easy to use for its strength. I agree that it is too strong in WvW but there are also a lot of other outlier skills that have evaded certain damage passes. I think it would be warranted if they also revisited some of the other stuff at the same time, such as Engi's Grenades or Necro's Lich Form. Hard to say what exactly their vision for WvW balance is tbh (they probably don't have one).

 

[Scoobaniec.9561]

What is reflect

[Telgum.6071]

Kinda funny coming from an Elementalist player.

[Buran.3796]

8 hours ago, Loke.1429 said:

The 7sec cd is the most ridiculous part.

 

  It made sense since Sevenshots fires a volley of 7 arrows in a 7 seconds cooldown which stacked torment for 7 seconds until the recent nerf to 6 seconds. Also, the changes in torment nerfed its performance in both PvP and WvW.

   Historically Renegade's short bow was a joke at the release: a weak ofensive  weapon which most of their skills didn't land ( Sevenshot  initial "reversed shotgun" mechanics made almost impossible to hit but freezed mobs, Spiritcrust unable to be casted except in perfet leveled terrain) and with larger cast times (0.75") that skills from Thief's and Rager's short bow (0.5"), plus a weapon with no block/evade and no mobility (again if clear disadvantage vs Thieves and Rangers comparing their short bows).

 

   But adjust were made over time and with the introduction of the new Sevenshot mechanic and the overall reduction in damage across all game modes in Feb 2020 the Renegade became viable and shortbow even meta...   Which is no longer the case: short bow works well but is easily countered by reflects and blocks so that's why you don't see much of them in AT lately. In WvW in large groups is easily neutered since the amount of skills which block it (2 hammer revs in a squad can block 7S forever... ). Meanwhile, Rev's hammer have been heavily nerfed in both dps and mechanics.

 

   Let's be clear: your class (Ele) has plenty of tools to deal against Renegade's short bow. Some of them will imply trade offs which will make your build less capable against other builds in exchange to be able to hard counter this build. You can aslo play in small groups with other memebers taking that anti-projectile role. Sevenshot is strong, but mostly when you get cced and have no breakstun at hand. 

 

 

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

The spec is fairly glassy overall and the Sevenshot animation is delayed enough that you can dodge at least half of the damage if you're paying attention.  Shortbow was trash before they buffed it repeatedly and later nerfed everything else, which is why Sevenshot is actually competitive now. However,  Sevenshot is still fairly comparable to plenty of other ranged nukes, many of which come out at the same speed or inflict as much damage in a single packet or from even farther distances.  True Shot on DH for example has nearly double the range while also having similar damage and CD.  Rapid Fire on Ranger deals far more damage from nearly double the range while having a 10s CD (granted this skill is easier to mitigate due to longer overall cast time, but the huge range makes up for it).  Gun Flame on Berserker has extreme burst too and with the right build can be fired back to back several times, even with Unblockable at nearly double the range of Sevenshot.  There are plenty of other examples as well.  Imo the skill is fine and balanced, especially given the much shorter range for comparable damage to other classes for similar abilities in WvW.  No nerf is needed here really. 

If you're having issues with Renegade w/ Shortbow though try kiting around it from extremely close distance.  With the exception of Bloodbane Path the shortbow kit requires the revenant to face their target entirely.  If you get too far to the side or behind them, they can't fire off most of their abilities.  LOS around objects and such works as well, or even keeping it farther away than 900 is a choice you can make too if your build allows.  Reflects, CC, and Condi Damage are also god tier against the build.  If you're playing condi, then building into a tanky set like Trailblazer or Celestial is an option to offset a lot of the damage as well

Edited September 13, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[genjonah.1253]

Yeah, I gotta hard disagree on this. It’s a potent attack, absolutely, but I have never been insta-downed by it like I have from several ele builds or a particularly well-timed Mesmer shatter. Given its other limitations (being in the only class that also has energy mechanics, short-bow range, and line of fire, among others) it’s fine as is 

[Shao.7236]

Two cents, there's a lot more than just Sevenshot that makes it good. Such as Brutal Momentum which helps keep crits in. This is a multi-hit afterall.

 

Coming from PvP it did need a nerf for how often it can be used with up to 8k per Sevenshot if done properly.

 

If it does just as much in WvW I'd consider a small co-efficient change but everything else is dandy since Shortbow is purely offensive as a weapon, it needs that.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I find life is cruel in it's coincidental and ironic ways.  As it stands right now I'm trying to convince people that Ele's have high offense in WvW and everyone there is telling me "no itz bad rev is good" and yet on these forums everyone is saying "Revs have bad damage except for sevenshot, ele's are strong and can handle it."

 

I don't play renegade, but from I've seen of them, as well as what I've played with power herald/renegade, they definitely are lacking in the offense department.  I found it cruel and unusual that so much of the damage on power herald is in consuming their facets, particularly facet of nature in Shiro.  I know what happened here: they noticed that a combination of traits and abilities (Draconic Echo, mostly) were strong, so they balanced the entire profession assuming people take that combo.  Now power herald lacks the damage to take down tank builds, even in full berserker.  

[Buran.3796]

7 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Now power herald lacks the damage to take down tank builds, even in full berserker.  

   Power Herald has plenty of damage but needs to expose himself in mele range ro deliver it, and that's hard when at the moment the main tanks in the game can pulse fear on will against a built that lacks stability. Renegade can both pressure at range for more safety and rely in Jalis for stability and damage mitigation if is required.

[Virdo.1540]

Renegade needs a nerf as whole. Its ,like firebrand, an completely overtuned class thats ,besides condi rene in pve, very easy to play.

 

It may need a nerf in Sevenshot for PvP/WvW, a tiny nerf in sustain

 

And an nerf for Icerazor in PvE. I mean even an condi build prefers that over the Bleeding guy, due to producing way too many battle scars. (Maybe change 2->1 Vulvn)

[Buran.3796]

50 minutes ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Renegade needs a nerf as whole. Its ,like firebrand, an completely overtuned class thats ,besides condi rene in pve, very easy to play.

 

...Aaand Firebrand got destroyed and no one plays it in PvP. No one. Zero. Imagine paying PoF to get the Firebrand only to find out that doesn't work in one of the game modes.

 

  Also don't understand the problem with "being too easy to play". What do you want then, to delete Warrior, Ranger and Necro because they are easy? And making the Weaver the convoluted gold standard of how classes should be made in this game?

[Virdo.1540]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

...Aaand Firebrand got destroyed and no one plays it in PvP. No one. Zero. Imagine paying PoF to get the Firebrand only to find out that doesn't work in one of the game modes.

 

  Also don't understand the problem with "being too easy to play". What do you want then, to delete Warrior, Ranger and Necro because they are easy? And making the Weaver the convoluted gold standard of how classes should be made in this game?

Firebrand is still top tier in WvW and PvE. pretty much everything in pvp is garbage by now. (PvP is getting close to combat like in the SAB)

 

Renegade is able to perform equal, if not better, than Warrior, ranger and necro ,just with way less effort. 

 

I mean have u seen the snowcrows build for the condi alac?   It has to take celestial gear just to get down to other supporters  damage-wise.

[Uruboz.9213]

This is funny because any skill against elementalist is mortal PD. The OP is a ele

 

 

 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

On 9/12/2021 at 5:42 PM, Ragnarox.9601 said:

this is only revenant build that is viable, everything else sucks. 

Renegade doesnt need any changes.. its on good spot.

BUFF HERALD! OR RIOT!

Edited September 13, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

11 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Power Herald has plenty of damage but needs to expose himself in mele range ro deliver it, and that's hard when at the moment the main tanks in the game can pulse fear on will against a built that lacks stability. Renegade can both pressure at range for more safety and rely in Jalis for stability and damage mitigation if is required.

Out of curiosity, is there a public build for WvW Renegades?  I wouldn't mind taking a rev back into there.  

[otto.5684]

6 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Renegade doesnt need any changes.. its on good spot.

BUFF HERALD! OR RIOT!

I have been rioting for a while. It does not seem to be working 🙁

[Shao.7236]

11 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Renegade doesnt need any changes.. its on good spot.

BUFF HERALD! OR RIOT!

To buff Herald you have to buff Core, therefor buff Core or riot.

Herald has Shield, not like they can do anything about it. There's nothing you can ask from Anet to make Herald any different, you can go Devastation with Retribution with all damage traits on Herald as well. What else more is to do? Most values end up the same with the same options. Renegade is just better because of the Shortbow in most cases, utilities can be done in different but yet similar ways.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Shao.7236

[GrayHawk.7560]

46 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

To buff Herald you have to buff Core, therefor buff Core or riot.

Herald has Shield, not like they can do anything about it. There's nothing you can ask from Anet to make Herald any different, you can go Devastation with Retribution with all damage traits on Herald as well. What else more is to do? Most values end up the same with the same options. Renegade is just better because of the Shortbow in most cases, utilities can be done in different but yet similar ways.

I agree.  Short of Herald getting the scrapper treatment and them adding quickness to one of its buffs (since Rene has Alac) I can't see Herald being specifically buffed in lieu of Core.

[Virdo.1540]

2 hours ago, GrayHawk.7560 said:

I agree.  Short of Herald getting the scrapper treatment and them adding quickness to one of its buffs (since Rene has Alac) I can't see Herald being specifically buffed in lieu of Core.

Herald doesnt need something like a scrapper treatment. But it does deserve what its supposed to be. 

 

Its an Defensive Support legend.  Thus it should change the Might-Facet into Resolution. Besides Guardian (blue class best class, still) it would be the only good source of resolution.

+ to make up the underwhelming support, it could get a good buff for facet of Nature. Make it improve the group more, without making it overpowered itself.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Virdo.1540

[GrayHawk.7560]

30 minutes ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Herald doesnt need something like a scrapper treatment. But it does deserve what its supposed to be. 

 

Its an Defensive Support legend.  Thus it should change the Might-Facet into Resolution. Besides Guardian (blue class best class, still) it would be the only good source of resolution.

+ to make up the underwhelming support, it could get a good buff for facet of Nature. Make it improve the group more, without making it overpowered itself.

Not sure I agree with Herald strictly being Defensive Support.  I would classify it more as being pure Boon Support (I.e. Offensive and Defensive).  There's nothing particularly defensive about perma Fury and a good stream of might.  Coupled with this Elemental Blast, Burst of Strength and Chaotic Release are all strictly offensive.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

7 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

To buff Herald you have to buff Core, therefor buff Core or riot.

 

That's not true.  The buffs Herald needs can easily be targeted at the Herald line. 

For example, if you want Herald to provide better/easier might generation (support) then you can buff Facet of Strength or Shared Empowerment

If you want Herald to do more damage (and I don't think anyone wants it doing more than 34k anyway), then you can easily rework Shining Aspects into a damage trait (doesn't have to be just a % increase) since SA is a useless trait overall.  Could also buff Reinforced Potency, Forceful Persistence, Facet Actives, or the damage buff from Burst of Strength further as well. 

[ArthurDent.9538]

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

That's not true.  The buffs Herald needs can easily be targeted at the Herald line. 

For example, if you want Herald to provide better/easier might generation (support) then you can buff Facet of Strength or Shared Empowerment

If you want Herald to do more damage (and I don't think anyone wants it doing more than 34k anyway), then you can easily rework Shining Aspects into a damage trait (doesn't have to be just a % increase) since SA is a useless trait overall.  Could also buff Reinforced Potency, Forceful Persistence, Facet Actives, or the damage buff from Burst of Strength further as well. 

I've been thinking shining aspects should be reworked as its just a selfish survivability trait that directly competes with another selfish survivability trait in the same tier. Making it a selfish damage mod would make a more definitive choice between the shared empowerment support, the self sustain of hardening persistence, or the selfish damage of new trait. A roughly10% damage mod would be greatly appreciated there.