Vindicator Feedback Thread

[scerevisiae.1972]

36 minutes ago, SidewayS.3789 said:

After i tested a few hours, i can truly say this spec is for Open World/Story. It isn't for Raids/Fractals and i doubt it will have a place in WvW, maybe in PvP. So those who are into pve endgame content, we will remain being alac/condi dps for the next expansion.

You can't be serious. I am just deleting people with alliance/shiro GS/hammer. The damage and mobility are awesome.

[Hanysix.8342]

So far the vindicator feels like it is strugling with its identity. On one hand we have a greatsword, which is supposed to be a pdps weapon, on the other hand we have talents that don't support the greatsword in any way. The talets feel more like they're meant for a support/healer class and for keeping players in the alliance stance more then for doing damage with the greatsword. For WvW it is a decent class for buffing and healing, but I don't see it performing well against it's competition in other mods. 

In PvE for Vindi to be considered as a healer or tank, they should have access to more relevant buffs for the party, at least give it 5man quickness, otherwise I don't know why should we chose Vindi instead of chrono or firebrand. 

The dodge mechanics' performance feels clumsy, especially in PvP. But maybe it's just me, since I don't really play this mode.

Skills:
As many people mentioned, elite skills are not really that usefull. Before Archemorus can throw his spear, the enemy is already behind an obstacle or outside it's range and the skill itself really doesn't do anything interesting. The torment on that skill feels completly out of place, since whole stance feels more like power/support hybrid than anything else. Urn of Saint Victor is not really that good apart from PvE mods, where you don't get stun locked easily. Maybe decreasing the cooldown between placing and dropping the urn would help a little bit.

I wouldn't change anything about the Nomad's advance and Battle Dance. Both stun breaks also do their thing very well
Selfish Spirit is fine as it is, but Selfless Spirit feels like it should do more than just heal 5 people. The same goes with Scavenger Burst, as every other skill gives buffs to allies, this one should give quickness to other 5 people. I don't know if it works as intended or it is a bug, but at this point it does give quickness only to the Vindi.

Traits:
The T2 and T3 majors have a nice synergy and the between each other. The vertical "theme" of each tier is obvious, but I would change a little bit also the horizontal relation of the traits. Focus first line of talents on damage, Reaver's Curse and Forerunner of Death already work well with each other, but the Leviathan Strenght doesn't really follow that idea.
The second horizontal line seems like it should be focused on buffing, but the Angsiyan's Trust again doesn't really follow the other two talents on that line. Maybe swap it with Song of Arboreum.
And the third line follows healer's path, but the T2 talent doesn't support the other two talents. Another problem with this path is that Redemptor's Sernom is too passive. I would change it to more active form, like % of damage done with a greatsword is transfered to allies in form of health. That would also give more synergy between the weapon and the traits. 

 Conclusion
Traits and some skills could use a rework. The synergy between T2, T3 traits and the dodge is good, but could use some minor changes. So far there's no synergy between the greatsword and the talents, which is kinda sad. Most of the utility skills work well, but the elite skills are rubbish

[Kazeshini.8210]

Vindicator feels disappointing at its current state. I wanted to play Vindicator as a selfish DPS but this is alliance duo trait doesn't mesh well at its current state it's leaning as a support but underwhelming. We already have Glint + Kalla that can outperform boon support + output DPS efficiently for PVE.

 

- Either Have F2 Changed so that when used we change to support alliance or offensive alliance stance or add F3 button if anet still wants to keep both stances under 1 alliance they need to make more utilities that does both offensive and defensive rather than separating them apart then they opt in-out of each other.

 

- Our dodging isn't even a combo blast finisher

- Forerunning of Death should've been the trait where we get 2 or more dodges. It feels unjustified for a grandmaster trait we can increase our dps uptime comparing to daredevil bouncing trait. We don't have enough endurace regained even with sigil of energy+traits to refresh that buff before its timer runs out 

- Saint of zu Helter had better jump iframe comparing to the other 2 grandmaster dodges, theyre just bad game design how long we have to wait. Even sword 3 skill has better dodge skill comparing to just 1 damage burst.

- Urn elite needs to re-adjusted, get rid of unable to self heal and its selfishness amount of energy expenses per tick. Its worse than impossible odds consumption rate when it was first release

- GS skills doesn't have a combo finisher like guardians, warriors, ranger, reaper has

- GS skill 3 needs range to be longer 

- Using dodge skill should give us the ability to have terrain advantages such as getting ontop of a ledge or aiming across another platform rather than having been forcefully rooted to the ground while waiting for the dodge skill to end. You cant even jump while trying to self adjust position during these dodge frames.

- Even using Forerunner of Death its frame its too long had to rely on jalis hammer or mallyx elite to dps during these downtimes

- Using alliance stance is already stressful that it F1 but you are forced to be tunneled with skill management for dps spec.

- The offensive alliance abilities cost are expensive in a bad spot they cost between 10-15-20 then they opt out to a different ultility that doesn't do any damage but been force to spend resource to either convert back 

- Feeling punished having 

Why is it the same problem again with revenants being underperforming since they introduced elites. Even during their first weeks of release of PoF renegade was underperforming very bad we didn't bother using short bow + kalla stance and just used mailyx + jallis until they've improved renegades few weeks later. Even after few weeks when raids first came out druids + banner slaves warriors can outperform herald with boons + other class can pick up the slack with breaking CC bars than relying on staff 5 rev skill and we still suck at picking up our weight with dps until renegades came out. 

 

Even the current state of Vindicator GS feels underwhelming comparing to the dual sword/sword power build. I don't like these philosophical design for the 3rd time that they favor support utilities again. Vindicator does not offer good CC that will break defiance bar efficiently comparing to its previous core+elite specs. 

The only thing that urn does right what tablet couldn't do consistently have is being attached to the player when its spawned and it follows us consistently. Tablet feels obsolete in most high-end PVE scenario especially when they removed alacrity from tablet skill. I don't like the fact that DPS vindicator doesn't feel like it exist at its current state in high end pve comparing to another support elite. Barriers could've stayed with Kalla heal skill/Ventari Tablet skills/ or added with glint elite spec rather than being stuck to a dodge grandmaster trait.

 

My attempt with golem dps small as a power DPS full berserker I had 28k burst but it dropped down to 25-24k dps. This is just me using jalis+shiro with all boons + using warrior + ranger group buffs. Comparing to using alliance the short delay using the utilities is making them awkward to use them I cant see any way bring it up further than 20k dps. My attempt using condi just dips lower the dps even lower using mallyx+alliance around 18k using vipers.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

Tested:

3~ hours in Wvw,  (larger scale clouding since nobody tags properly during betas)

 

so yeah

 

please anet, can u make all new specs without these huge animation lags? like the new Elite skill, that one that has a dash forwards and a other backwards, the backwards one has a cast time.

 

like, whats the thinking there? sth alike has to go off immediately, or it totally messes up the fluidity of a class!

 

i technically like it in wvw, yet the class is not very brutal. it feels yet nerfed, which ain't a good feeling for a new class.

 

and same as harbinger and virtuoso, it may look nice and fun, but it doesn't provide significant things for larger scale i fear.

[sgtmiles.5712]

Maining rev for quite a while now. I love the Renegade. I also want to thank ANet for giving us the greatsword for which I believe, many have been waiting for a long time.

However, this final elite supposedly is a better progression on targeting its purpose and goal, in my opinion a power machine, not a healer, not an alac slave, etc. It is still in beta, I know, but this one disappoints me. I don't want to repeat what others have already commented. Make this work better ANet. Thank you.

[Phil.1074]

My 2 cents to the discussion.

 

Overall the new espec feels awul to play. While I expect the Revenant to be a clunky class that somewhat has long-ish cast times,  i'm missing the pay-off in damage. Also: No Furry available? 

The idea of 2 legends seems like a cool idea, but plays horrible. I don't want to change between heal-support skills and damage skills. Give me an option to lock the skills in place. Some F3 ability, or split the Luxon and Kurzick Legend entirely. The skills itself are fine, I guess but feel unexciting and boring. Cool animation where? And I think there was enough said about the worst skill in other posts: the urn!

The Greatsword itself feels more like a hammer than a GS, which is fine by me, again I expect Revs to be more clunky than others, but please stop recycling old animations. The GS5 is Reaper GS2, the GS4 i've seen one too many times in-game. Talking about the block: How useless is this stuff? I expect to have a worthwhile pay-off of blocking a skill, but here there is nothing I deem worth the effort.

Let's talk about the dodge: To me, personally, the dodge feels as kitten as it gets. Not only do I lose DPS using it, I also get animation locked after coming down. I'm subject to conditions when midair (and can be somewhat CCed, seems like a bug though) and I only have one of it. Thing is none of the trait variations make this more rewarding, they are all just meh. In a game where there is all about a dynamic combat with dodging big AoE-effects that stun/knockdown/knockback/daze etc. this dodge is just a waste of potential, as there is only one stunbreak in the Alliance skills.

The Traits itself are fine, but they are all targeting the Alliance skills which makes me feel forced to play them on this spec, not giving me the chance to make a worthwhile decision. Also as a non gw1-vet: how am I supposed to know which are Kurzick and which are Luxon skills?

 

I've been yearning for a GS-Spec for the rev ever since the class got introduced, but this is a heartbreaker for me. Guess i'm staying a Renegade until something cool for Revs gets introduces, so ... probably forever.

[BadSanta.6527]

guess this post were right after all

[Le Bram.4291]

On paper the Vindicator seems awesome, but it could use some tweaks/revisits in practise. 

 

General impressions: tried it so far with a Retribution/Devastation build, primarily using Enduring Recovery, Unwavering Avoidance, Notoriety, Targeted Destruction and Dance of Death in these trees. Works well imo, more endurance/vigor is great, Targeted Destruction and Dance of Death work well with the vulnerability application of Vindicator. (I'll be using keeping these traits the same for comparison reasons.) Gameplay is fun, but clunky (more on this later). Vindicator does lack some class identity, it is difficult to spec into either DPS or Support, running a hybrid is not ideal either since i feel that you don't excel at either.

 

Speaking of traits: Leviathan Strength is not fun or very useful, needs a rework. This is more tied in with the general CD-issue of the skills, but being able to reset everything once every 40 seconds does not feel rewarding. Redemptor's Sermon is alright, but stands in the shadow of Amnesty of Shing Jea, definitly the best choice of Adept Trait. the Master Traits are very dependent on what dodge you're running, so we'll talk about those first. Forerunner of Death takes way too long for the animation to finish and compared to the cost. Being able to dodge only once is already a bit of a drawback, but being in the air for almost 3 seconds is not rewarding, especially as it takes almost 25 seconds to be able to dodge again, without using any other vigor/endurance gain (besides the Minor Traits in Retribution). Saint of Zu Heltzer is a lot faster, leaving for about 1.5s and taking about 8s to recharge at base. Vassals of the Empire is the best imo, as the Might application works great with Notoriety. the dodge time of 2s is still long (all the dodge times could be reduced in duration) but is doable, although the 16s-ish recharge is still long.

 

A general comment on the dodge is that the "leap-up" animation looks unfinished, there's hardly any revenant mist-particles or a portal to jump into of sorts. Although activating the dodge can be done whilst moving, landing locks you into place for a moment, making it feel quite clunky. The landing animation is cool though, but it does not outweigh the gameplay element sadly. Having only one dodge that you want to use offensively is also not ideal for situations where you want a defense evade dodge, and although there are evade frames on other skills, it doesn't feel great.

 

To finish of the traits, let's talk Master traits. Angsiyan's Trust is... ok I guess, although you get the endurance on F2 anyways, so instead it adds endurance gain on legend swap and AoE for both. Song of Arboreum is great in general imo, more endurance regen regardless of situation, as well as being complemented by Unwavering Avoidance (Retribution). Reaver's Curse is a weird one, as generally the top traits are more for Archimorus (DPS) and bottom for St Viktor (support), I feel like Reaver's Curse works the best with Vassals of the Empire, as it activates on allies as well, working better in zergs. I have yet to try wether Reaver's Curse or Song of Arboreum gives the most dodge uptime.

 

Weapon Skills: the vulnerabilty application on skill 1 and 2 is great, works with Targeted Destruction and Dance of Death (Devastation). The multi-hit capabilities of GS are great too. HOWEVER, some sort of AoE pull or grouping mechanic would be nice on GS, since it benefits so much from grouped enemies. GS2 animation needs something different, currently using the same animation as GS1.1, not good (on C harr at least). The dash duration on GS3 feels bugged, it doesn't go as far as it should (900 range is the same as shortbow). The RNG on GS5 is clunky as well, perhaps better to have a pull mechanic here (whirl your greatsword, using Mist energy to pull in nearby enemies (5 targets) or something)

 

F2: this ties into more of the dual skill swap as well. In general, flipping the skills over to the other version is fine. The endurance gain is nice too, but it needs some other buffs if not used with LA stance. Kalla had good buffs/damage regardless of stance, and Glint grants enhancements based on the channelled legend. Vindicator currently only gives endurance, regardless of stance. Giving boons such as "gain quickness/fury as Shiro, stability/protection as Jalis, might as Mallyx and regeneration/alacrity as Ventari" would massively improve the F2 as it is.

 

Skills: General note: using a skill and having it flip over is cool, but not if it still goes on cooldown. It removes the flow of combat, in which you're micromanaging your skills, in combination with resetting with F2, in combination with legend swap, in combination with weapon swap. A better idea is to have both the Luxon and Kurzick versions have individual cooldowns (would require a rework of Leviathan Strength as well, as mentioned before) which would result in more of a "ammunition" mechanic, similar to mantra's. This would allow us to use a Luxon skill, it swaps Kurzick, which is automatically ready to be activated, whils the Luxon skill recharges in the background. F2 would still swap everything to the other side, allowing for more fluid gameplay.

 

Heal skills are fine, although i see more solo gameplay use for Selfish Spirit (which is in accordance with the flavor). Nomads Advance is good, Battle dance needs to be an instant cast, more similar to base dodge. Then Battle Dance could be used as a defensive dodge, off-setting the single offensive dodge Vindicator has. Reaver's Rage and Awakening, general stunbreaks with boon application, no issues here. Scavenger's Burst and Tree Song are fine too, although the burning is weird on a power-focussed spec imo. The Spear of Archimorus and Urn of St Viktor have got some real issues though. Spear applying torment is weird, again condi on a power spec. Additionally, it only does damage, a knockdown/knockback here would be good to offset the lack of hard-CC Vindicator has. Urn of St Viktor should be able to be double-tapped, gaining the boons and healing instantly. Activating this skill when low health feels like a death sentence, as you're locked into the urn for 1.8s before you're able to gain the benefits.

 

Visuals on the skills: these feel... underwhelming. The animations on the healing skills are fine, but could be more flashy. Nomad’s Advance needs more mist particles during the leap, Battle Dance just needs more of it. Same goes for Reaver’s Rage and Awakening. Scavenger Burst and Tree Song both need a ground target ring (similar to Renegade SB4 or any other ground target instant AoE), as well as a different animation (give both of them the Tree Song character animation). F2 needs some particles as well.

 

In conclusion, Vindicator looks to be very cool, but there are some things that really need a revisit for it to be playable imo. In it’s current state, I don’t see any reason for me to swap off Renegade, besides the flavour of Vindicator, which sadly is not enough.

[Kidel.2057]

What worries me is that now people are saying that Bladesworn does 53k dps while Vindicator is below 30k. 

DPS is an issue but it's NOT the main issue here. I'm worried they'll just tweak the numbers instead of doing the right thing: get rid of Alliance Tactics and just use Energy Meld + F3 loadout lock. 😢

[Kidel.2057]

37 minutes ago, The Urps.8379 said:

The idea of 2 legends seems like a cool idea, but plays horrible. I don't want to change between heal-support skills and damage skills. Give me an option to lock the skills in place. Some F3 ability, or split the Luxon and Kurzick Legend entirely. The skills itself are fine, I guess but feel unexciting and boring. Cool animation where? And I think there was enough said about the worst skill in other posts: the urn!

I agree, but the skills themselves also need CC and no cooldowns. There is seriously no reason to have a 10s cooldown on a skills that are almost a direct copy of Riposting Shadows (0s) and Phase Traversal (5s)

[Kidel.2057]

2 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

You can't be serious. I am just deleting people with alliance/shiro GS/hammer. The damage and mobility are awesome.

It's quite decent in wvw mostly because people don't know how to counterplay some of the skills and because Sain'ts Shield is good for that game mode and is the best dodge overall. I can assure you that Jalis+Shiro Vindicator is far better (you even dps during dodge with Vengeful Hammers)

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Vindicator isn't nearly as bad as people are making it out to be. It has some clunky skills such as the F2, but overall it's the strongest new espec being released. 

Some feedback for sPvP:

Pros:

-Greatsword is fun. The fact that GS has a block and LAS has a good condi clear means Rev is finally free to not just be stuck on Staff in PvP. Things like GS/Sw+Axe, GS/Mace+Axe, GS/Sw+Sw, all can be played. 

-"Doomfist" is fine mechanically. I was skeptical of 1-dodge but the vigor trait allows it to still have decent survival. Possibly too much, but I wouldn't blame the vigor trait, I would blame the fact that the heal/barrier on the bottom GM trait is slightly too high and could be toned down by 20% or so. 

-Alliance stance is alright when you get used to it.  I like how it not really having an upkeep skill changes the playstyle ( No, urn doesn't count )

Cons:

-Urn elite is absolute dogs**t. Easily the worst skill in the entire game. Not just Revenant, I don't think there is any ability on any class that is remotely this bad. Any rev attempting to use this  skill in sPvP might as well scream "please kill me I am dumb".  The only time I use this is out of combat so that I have SoA available instead.

-Battle dance doesn't need to have a delay on it. 

-F2 skill could be split into two different skills, or at the very least do something useful in other legends besides LAS

-Doomfist animation sometimes glitches out. This could be a lag thing, perhaps just better netcode on the skill would fix it.

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Erkki.9145]

I think that the greatsword and the utility skills could use more chill application, so that the condihybrid would work with the trait ''abyssal chill''. For example if the greatsword 5th skill added half a second of chill on every impact, that would make a huge difference and be more versatile. Or there could be a trait that gives the chill applications to the skills, just like there's a condi trait for Virtuoso. 

Please like the comment, I'd really like this to happen!  ❤️

Edited September 22, 2021 by Erkki.9145

[wolfyrik.2017]

Some Copy/pasta from another thread, warning.

I can't stand the flip skills. For me it has the same problem as bladesworn; you're playing the UI, not the game. Too much time spent checking the skills, which ones are flipped, all the cooldowns. It's the worst aspect of elementalist weapon skills, combined with a suicide flip-skill. which offers no benefit to the user.

Having one dodge is crippling, forcing you to take very specific traits which kills build diversity or hope that the near-gamble of unchangable skill flip cooldowns, mean the skill you need is available. Frankly I find the spec kinda boring to play. Dull, reused animations, dull skills, with dull sounds mean that when you actually can look up from the UI, you're not really seeing anything worth seeing. The great sword needs pulls or some other CC, it needs skills with impact. Right now it feels like a naff version of main hand sword, with some rather naff off-hand comprised of a downgraded Scrapper Hammer 4 and a watered-down meteor storm on 5.

As far as I can tell, Vin is a gimmic. It offers nothing over the other elites, but loses a lot of their utility and damage.

It reminds me of Beta core Rev. Needlessly hobbled.

I like the idea of an F3 to lock the bar. Alternatively, I'd suggest that the heal represent Viktor, using it switches your skills to his selection. Elite Represents Archemorus, using it switches to his set. This kills the god-awful urn and the fairly pants-archy heal. Frees up the F2 for something better. Also frees the player from having to constantly check the UI.

Edited September 22, 2021 by wolfyrik.2017

[Cougre.6543]

I would like to point out that all of the art added by Vindicator ranges between unfitting and ugly. The bright blue/orange theme is garish and doesn't look right at all among all of the other legends that have one dominant colour and many gradients and shades of it, nearly every skill icon in the kit is missing the white-grayish and red accents that are a hallmark of revenant by now, and revenant weapon skills don't have those hues of blue in them like the greatsword does.

The image of the legend itself is bad too, it looks like two generic armored guys while every other legend has a very distinct and recognizable mugshot. I get that those are faction armors from GW1, but it just doesn't really work.

[Deadvillager.1956]

Although I like what the spec wants to be, I have some issues with the traitlines and utility skills. All the comments and suggestions are coming from a PvE power spec background.

 

- F2 and red utility spells feel unrewarding and free of impact

- Major adept traits dont offer any choice because they all sound bad

- Major master traitline feels excessive to only offer three variants of the same thing

- only the bottom grandmaster trait feels good to use, although the middle one still kinda works. The top grandmaster trait makes the class feel clunky with its 4 second airtime and doesnt even offer any real upside. 15% damage bonus is not as big of a deal in the specs current state as you make it out to be.

- no breakbar damage/hard cc

 

In general, the spec seems stuck in its hybrid design. You gave us damage and support options but dont give us the traits to fully commit to one of them. Right now there is no reason to even slot the alliance legend or even equip the elite spec if you want to do damage. Aside from numbers bumps, we need trait options that let us empower the damage utility slots. I would suggest to swap the master traitline to adept and design new traits for the master tier where we can choose which of the two legends we want to be good in.

It would also be a shame to give us this fun new dodge mechanic and force us out of it as much as possible like the top grandmaster trait does. At the very least, all dodges should give us only 1 second airtime independent of eventual cost penalties. The longer dodges just feel clunky and counterintuitive with a class that needs to be at its target to get damage done.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Deadvillager.1956
wrong legend

[Savoren.3910]

Played the spec yesterday and I have three issues with it.

 

First, and the most important one, is the lack of CC. Neither greatsword nor any of the legend abilities have any CC, which means we have can't do anything against breakbars. I had to swap both legend (Jalis worked best) and weapon (both sword/sword and hammer were decent) whenever I had to deal with a breakbar. Adding a slow effect to GS3 or the first blast of GS5 that hits the target, as well as adding a daze or immobile effect to Archemorus elite skill and removing torment from it (since torment has no synergy with that skill anyway) would fix our CC problem.

 

Second, cooldowns. Flipover skills should definitely have separate cooldowns. Having the cooldown of the skill you've just used carry over to the next skill hurts the flow of the spec. This is especially bad when you use Nomad's Advance, you'll have to wait for 10 seconds before you can use Battle Dance. Speaking of Battle Dance, having a cast time on a dodge ability completely defeats the purpose of a dodge ability, and currently Battle Dance is just a worse Riposting Shadows. I'd also like them to remove the cooldown on urn drop skill, because that prevents players from picking up the urn and dropping it right away to switch back to Archemorus elite skill.

 

Lastly, dodge. New dodge will take some time getting used to and I have no problem with that. What bothers me is that it doesn't gives immunity like a dodge should. I have been feared and knocked back during the dodge, which ended the dodge early and made me waste endurance. I didn't have the chance to try this against other types of CC, but I saw a few other people mention that they've been blinded or slowed during the dodge (and one said he even took damage while dodging). I don't know whether this is intended or not though, because this looks more like a bug to me.

 

Also, as a QoL feature, I'd like to have the ability to customize alliance legend skills. As in, let players choose which version of the ability they'll have on their bars. This would be particularly good for support builds, because currently after getting downed and getting back up, all legend skills revert to Archemorus skills.

[Gehenna.3625]

As a player of GW1, I really don't like how they just threw 2 legends together into one spec. The luxon and kurzick identity should've been preserved instead of lumping them together. For me it should've been a choice between them, not both together. The other elite specs are of a single entity. Please make it so there is a choice between them and the utility skills aren't always that when you use one, the other one appears. I want to stay permanently in one of the two. That way you can also choose to gear for either a support build or a dps build. 

[Loules.8601]

8 hours ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

You guys got given the best GS in the game for damage, mobility and defence all in one, yet still you complain?

Where is this mythological “best GS”? Current one -boring, plain and almost without unique identity 

[Aeolus.3615]

ELites Skills:

Archmoorus spear failed almot 100% of the moving targets

Urn  is a selfkill button, this skil needs to be redesigned.

Leap/dodge:  Can be spammed non stop,  its clunky and class has no trade off mechanics for a mechanics like this, since can't dodge avoid atack well, and leaping into combat with this class is a certain death against most PoF and HoT specs.

 

Traits:; felt always forced to run 3-1-3 

 

Testes MIN/MAX:

Damage is  decent some skills could be slightly buffed but felt ok. 4k-8k crits seams decent.

Noted some healing in Victor side of the skills, remove the regen and give better direct heals on condi removals(arround130 on heavy healign power stats), the scale of Healing power is awfull. specially in slefless spirit healing skills wich says 930 hp ticks.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Catchyfx.5768]

Henlo there,

i was trying this spec whole day, somewhat I found a way how to kinda play it, with healdodge, and vigor trait, but as others I have few points to point out. (WvW/PvP)
I played with GS+SW/Axe so i didnt have problem with CC (Shiro Jalis too)

What I like
-Dodge mechanic - it looks cool, if you sacrifice everything for endurance gain, you can dodge pretty quickly.

-Greatsword - feels good, even there are some tooltips(GS3) and animations(GS2/AA), it felt good.

-If you dont pick Legendary Aliance, it works pretty good.

-It is very diferent playstyle from other classes and specs.

 

What I Dislike

1) Urn Elite is very bad, upkeep and dmg for nothing, even in group play Selfless Spirit was better heal. It just brings nothing. You get more from dodge.

2) Whole Alliance kit is very clunky to use, aside of heals and breakstuns you dont have to use anything, not impactfull skills
     Even Spear is meh, it is just filler ability between dodge. both ranged options are very situational, outside of blob fights, they are very very weak, not worth of energy. Red ones are little bit better, Blue ones if you are alone are very weak.

3)F2- you need that endurance for emergency dodge, but lose so much.

4) dodge is now everything, i found myself in this state, where all I do is dodge and after that, im finding my way to dodge again.
Legends are just fillers to get that endurance back and dodge again. Otherwise, I was dead on floor.

5) minor traits are good but rest...jeesus

6) "Vindicator wants to be in that biggest fights" well, you have to nonstop dodge, and have friends with lot of boons. Or take Jalis+Shiro/Mallyx. And you are fine(core rev 😉 )

 

Only way I was able to make Alliance working was, if I was fighting lesserclasses 1v1, or I went full heal in PvP where i just jumped :), Dodge-> block->swap to sword3->Sw3+axe5 -> dodge-> swap to shiro-> dodge-> riposting shadows-> dodge -> riposting shadows-> dodge ->riposting shadows-> dodge swap to alliance heal stunbreak for stab and F2 for another dodge.

without dodging, ez targer

In Alliance using weapons, in other legends using utility skills.

I saw in pvp Lobby really crazy 1v1 builds where dudes were just deleting others, so maybe there is a way(but they went Shiro/Jalis too)
**Quick PvE edit** IDK if anybody found good dps variant for this I was 25k with jalis Shiro, but suport wise, outside of barrier, it have nothing to offer, no boons, nothing.

Maaybe its done for lore purposes Shiro>Arch/StVictor   🙂  😄 

[Kidel.2057]

1 hour ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

I like the idea of an F3 to lock the bar. Alternatively, I'd suggest that the heal represent Viktor, using it switches your skills to his selection. Elite Represents Archemorus, using it switches to his set. This kills the god-awful urn and the fairly pants-archy heal. Frees up the F2 for something better. Also frees the player from having to constantly check the UI.

Both "F3 to lock" and this new suggestion of heal/elite are way better than the current flipover mechanic. At the moment we are "playing the UI" as most people are saying. 

 

[Kidel.2057]

50 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Traits:; felt always forced to run 3-1-3 

3-3-3 is also viable (if not better) if you have good vigor uptime (using Retribution). It gives you better Vigor overall and allows to go past the 10% endurance per second.
I'm not sure if Retribution is viable in current PvP. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

You guys got given the best GS in the game for damage, mobility and defence all in one, yet still you complain?

Having 'the best' GS isn't what makes a good espec or not. 

Frankly, at best, I think the GS is pretty bland. AT WORST, it's a second rate Sword/Sword mimic. Sword/sword is actually a BETTER setup in Alliance than GS is. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Nightstar.9574]

Hey, Revenant main here.

I always wished for a competent Power DPS specialization for the Revenant and when I first saw the Vindicator trailer I felt really conflicted about it. I saw it as something what can be really fun to play but on the other hand it seemed to be something what can easily backfire and become a trainwreck. I was especially nervous about the new dodge mechanic. Then I watched the Stream and that made me feel even more conflicted about this specialization but I still had hope that it might just look bad at first glance.

Yesterday the moment of truth came and I jumped into it without prejudices. Oh boy, that was something else.
Vindicator feels like the biggest waste of a specialization I ever witnessed. I feared that it will be bad but in fact it's even worse than I've expected.

 

So let's go through the pros and cons and then let's go in-depth into the issues.

Pros:
    -Greatsword
    -Nice looking dodge what works with other weapontypes as well

Cons:
    -Greatsword
    -Only 1 dodge
    -The way the dodge works
    -Really lacking damage
    -Archemorus feels incredibly weak
    -Saint Viktor is a support
    -Useless F2 ability outside of Alliance Legend
    -Traits
    -No reliable perma-Might unlike with Renegade

 

Now that we finished going through the summary, let's dive deep into the specialization, shall we?

    I. Greatsword: As you could see the Greatsword is mentioned both as a pro and a con in this. At first that might seem like a mistake but let me explain. The weapon itself was a much needed one for the Revenant and it kinda works, except when it doesn't. The first issue with Greatsword here is the lack of synergies between the abilities. There's no flow between them like there is with a Reaper for example.
    
    In case of Reaper you are encouraged to utilize your weapon in an engaging way (Grasping Darkness to pull in and chill your foes from a safe distance then followed by Death Spiral for a good amount of Vulnerability just to finish it off with Gravedigger for some nice damage. Auto-attack while your main combination is on cooldown and nightfall if you need some boon removal.)
    
    Vindicator feels like the opposite of this. We have no pull but we have a rush instead which endangers us more. We have Imperial Guard to protect ourselves but this interrupts our DPS. Mist Unleashed only gives us a measly 3 Vulnerability and then we must rely on auto-attacks. We have no control over Eternity's Requiem's AOE and based on my experience it likes to not hit the enemies. (Happened multiple times that all of the hits happened behind me or only 1 hit went forward which barely even did any damage). This makes the 5th ability an unneeded dicethrow in hope of some decent damage. The other issue with the 5th is the fact that you can't precast it to reach the enemies by the time it will hit. If you cast it then the hits will happen at your original location even if you moved away already.
    
    So now that we went through the issues of the Greatsword let's look at options to fix them:
        1. Increase the damage numbers. In its current state the Greatsword has worse DPS than the Renegade Shortbow or the Dual Swords.
        2. Change Eternity's Requiem. Have the impacts hit at our last position at the end of channeling. Instead of locking us into an animation give it a quick starting animation (like just lifting our sword in the sky for a brief second) and then allow us to use other abiltiies while it still channels. That way we could have a synergy with Phantom's Onslaught. You start casting 5 from a bit of a distance and then use 3 to rush to your target and reach it by the time your channeling finishes so you can do some starting burst. That can be followed by 2 to add Vulnerability and do some more damage. On top of that please make Eternity's Requiem have a fixed impact pattern instead of the current random one.
        3. Double the Vulnerability inflicted by Mist Unleashed.
        
        
        
    II. Dodge: The dodge is interesting but it turns some AOE heavy fights into a deathtrap. You can't react fast enough to some fights with only 1 dodge especially if that one has such a big gap between uses if you don't use Retribution. In addition this new dodge doesn't ignore height differences even tho we are jumping up in the sky. You can actually finish the slam in the middle of the air if you try to use it to get off from high cliffs and then fall into your death.
    
    Solution: Give us back the normal dodge but reduce its amount to 1 only. Make the new dodge into an F1 ability instead what we need to charge up by fighting (similar to Catalyst spheres) and the charge stays until we finally use it, even out of combat. Add Forerunner of Death and Reaver's Curse to it by default. That way by using the new F1 strike we need to decide if we want a quick damage buff from it or we want to save it as an additional dodge for the near future. The Reaver's Curse helps us reacharge our normal dodge and do some riskier manoeuvres (like using our dodge to avoid an AOE, then using F1 to jump into the middle of a group and do some damage to them while regenerating enough endurance to try to retreat with another normal dodge by the time of the next AOE). In addition let us cancel the ability and do our strike earlier if we want to.
    
    
    
    III. The Legends: Both Archemorus and Saint Viktor feels really lackluster and useless. I could get way better performance if I simply replaced them with Shiro and Jalis or even Shiro and Malyx. That shows how bad their design is. The worst part of their duo is the flip mechanic. It forces you to do Support even tho the whole purpose of Vindicator is DPS. Let's go a bit deeper:
    
        A. Archemorus: His kit is unimportant, lacks any kind of pull or decent damage. Some abilities even give conditions like Burning and Torment what doesn't make sense in a Power DPS. It feels like ArenaNet tried to make a Power/Condition hybrid here but both sides fell flat thanks to this attempt.
        
        B. Saint Viktor: A generic Support legend. Completely useless for a DPS specialization. If someone wants to give Boon Support then they can simply go with Herald or Renegade. If someone wants to be a dedicated healer then they can bring Ventari. Viktor gives nothing new and just limits a promising specialization even more. What's even worse that Battle Dance is literally a Riposting Shadows (Shiro) ripoff but with a bit of support flavour. The Elite of Viktor is a suicide button if you get CCd in any way.
        
    Revenant already has Full Support - Herald, Condition/Power Support - Renegade, so why not give a pure DPS option then as Vindicator?
    
    Solution: Let's make Archemorus into a full-on Power DPS specialization with no conditions other than the ones what benefit power like Chill. Then let's take Saint Viktor and erase everything what made him into a support to turn him into a Condition DPS. That way Vindicator will be finally the DPS class what most Revenants were wishing for. Remove the flips and make F2 into a legend switch between Archemorus and Viktor, Between Power and Condition. That way Vindicator can use the Alliance legend with Shiro if they want pure Power DPS, with Malyx if they want pure Condition DPS, with Jalis if they want some more survivability, with Ventari if they want to give some healing or even try to experiment with a new Condition/Power hybrid. Add some bonus from the F2 to other legends as well if activated outside of Alliance.
    For example:
        Shiro: Might, Fury
        Malyx: Torment, Burning
        Jalis: Resolution, Weakness
        Ventari: Regeneration, Vigor
        
    
    
    IV. Traits: The traits suffer from a really simple issue. The adept ones are all borderline useless. They offer nothing valuable enough to justify their use.
        Adept:
            Leviathan Strength: F2 switch without cooldown on the abiltiies but the cooldown of F2 increases massively. Makes it unusable knowing the fact that you will use up all the abiltiies before even getting halfway in the increased cooldown.
            Amnesty of Shing Jea: Gives a bit of regeneration and might, sadly not nearly enough to make it a valid option for anything.
            Redemptor's Sermon: I won't lie personally I didn't really try this one so I don't know if it applies to the Vindicator as well or only on allies. If it does then this is the only somewhat palatable one, the other 2 are trash.
        
        With the rest of the traits the issue is really simple. Literally every single one of them only boosts your dodge. 6 whole traits only for the dodge. That's outrageous. No selectable boost for actual DPS like with Kalla (Vindication(ironic, huh?) - Gaining Kalla's Fervor grants you Might), no interesting traits like Draconic Echo or Forceful Persistance from Glint, nothing what would affect anything other than your dodge. A dodge what you can only use once and then wait varying amount of time based on your selected traits to use again. Not even a single trait to boost Greatsword use like with previous specializations (Hardening Persistance - Shield, Heartpiercer - Shortbow).
        
        Solution: Rework the whole trait tree of Vindicator. Tenacious Ruin (the new dodge) should only get 1 trait for itself, 1 should be for Greatsword use, the rest should be traits what builds can actually use even outside of Alliance Legend. For example if we go with my idea and make Alliance into a choice between Power and Condition dps then we can simply give a Grandmaster Trait like "Gain Might when you inflict vulnerability" and another "Gain Might when inflict Torment". You have an actual meaningful choice then, you either go Power for your boon or you go Condition.

 

 

 

In conclusion Vindicator has massive potential but currently held back by some really serious design choices. I hope you will listen to the people and fix it because in its current state Renegade stays the only viable DPS option.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Nightstar.9574
I fixed some typos what I noticed