Vindicator Feedback Thread

[ProtoGunner.4953]

lol and as always, being in game I had a lot of fun and didn't think much about it. Tinkered around in PvE and felt strong. I had a blast. Then you check the forum and 90% is whining and quitting the game and losing faith in humanity. Wtf.

Edited September 22, 2021 by ProtoGunner.4953

[Kidel.2057]

All 3 jumps should be 100 endurance (the 50 one is honestly too much spammable), 75 min, do damage and give a damage buff. The GM traits should simply change the flavour to more damage, boons or healing+barrier. Slight nerf to Saint's Shield (plus a bit of damage), big buff to the other useless 2 jumps. Jumps should not leave you vulnerable to blind and ccs. 

F2 should only give endurance. Make F3 for flipout management and keep it simple (a reset or a lock).
idea 1: lock -> locks the current loadout, no flipover until deactivated.
idea 2: reset -> resets the loadout to default, the default can be picked with a trait allowing to choose if you want to be mopre offensive or defensive. 

Utilities should have no CD on a class with energy. And should be decent. 

Give a big CC to the Spear ultimate, Redo the Urn from scratch. The upkeep is way too expensivein energy and health, and takes 2 seconds to even doubletap (plus interrupts). Left as it is it should AT LEAST be insta cast and provide CC immunity on upkeep.

Give CC to GS and swap vuln and chill on 1st and 2nd AA. Make skill 5 do more damage or focus on chilled enemies. Skill 4 should NOT be shorter with quickness. 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Skyroar.2974]

Regarding the greatsword, I love 3 and 5. The dash looks really cool with Twilight's trail, and both create a smooth combo of leap in - aoe - even more aoe damage.

Everything else about the weapon just doesn't flows very well, is somewhat clumsy, and definitely very bland.

#1 is generic. There's nothing interesting, not even on the final strike. Chill doesn't do much in PvE. But I don't mind a generic AA.

#2 has no risk-reward mechanic. The thing I like the most about MH sword #2 and old hammer #2 is how the each of them have/had a conditional effect that had to maximized in specific contexts. Greatsword #2 is just like the reworkd hammer #2: big, boring and bland skill that you spam off cooldown. The radius is also weird: it seems to miss in situations where it shouldn't have, like when the target only slightly sidesteps you, or because the range is a little bit smaller than it should have been, IMO.

#4 just doesn't flows well. Having to disrupt your combo to stay iddle for a block is something that I never enjoyed in Ranger's greatsword, and revenant's version is even worse. The flip skill is boring, right down to the generic AA(?) animation. Even the block's visual effect is disappointing: it's basically staff's block, but without the cool whirling weapon animation. And without interesting effects. It's just a vanilla skill. I think this one would feel much better if it were rework so that the reven would block and deal PBAoE damage simultaneously. Currently, as it is, it simply disrupts your DPS combo, and it's not even interesting by itself.

[Deadvillager.1956]

3 minutes ago, ProtoGunner.4953 said:

lol and as always, being in game I had a lot of fun and didn't think much about it. Tinkered around in PvE and felt strong. I had a blast. Then you come to this forum and 90% is whining and quitting the game and losing faith in humanity. Wtf.

There is just a lot of people in here that want to have a fun AND viable spec coming february

[Kidel.2057]

3 minutes ago, ProtoGunner.4953 said:

lol and as always, being in game I had a lot of fun and didn't think much about it. Tinkered around in PvE and felt strong. I had a blast. Then you check the forum and 90% is whining and quitting the game and losing faith in humanity. Wtf.

you probably did low level open world content. Even Pikachu would be good at that. 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Additional feedback from me.

 

I absolutely love the dodge mechanic!  I have to hard disagree with the other posters here that the dodge animation with the Death Drop trait takes too long.  I think the time is perfect.   On the competitive side, I do think it needs to be made easier to land with because my targets can simply just walk away from the area of landing.  With that in mind, I think the movement Of the dodge needs to sped up so you can catch your targets.  This will probably increase dodge travel distance so I’m not sure how that will affect the balancing of it.  Also, once again, DPS numbers on the dodge need a little more of a numbers increase. 

On the Alliance legend itself.  The CDs feel bad and are too high for the energy costs as well.  The double penalties for skill usage really needs to go.   IMO, either reduce the CDs or energy costs.  Preferably the CDs.
 

 The flip over of the skills on use on top of this feel bad too and very annoying and unfun to use.  As it is now, there is way too much flip management, having a mixed up bar often.  You end up wasting a skill and CD just to flip it over, or use F2 to flip over the entire mixed up bar, only having to realize you needed one of the other skills of the same set but can’t get to because the bar is all mixed up.  IMO, when on Arch set, a skill use should not flip over the skill to Saint.  And the same when on Saint. Instead, it should just cost the energy and go on CD and not flip over.  F2 should Be the flip over only.  F2 flips over to Arch or Saint fully, not flip over a mixed up bar.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Mike.7983]

Quote

6 minutes ago, ProtoGunner.4953 said:

lol and as always, being in game I had a lot of fun and didn't think much about it. Tinkered around in PvE and felt strong. I had a blast. Then you check the forum and 90% is whining and quitting the game and losing faith in humanity. Wtf.

Sounds like a super casual response there, most of the whining is the fact the new spec is absolute garbage, casuals may not notice as much as the rest of us wanting a dedicated dps spec, not a half/half triple support elite.  Comparison to how berserker/dragonhunter can pull the numbers.

 

[Kidel.2057]

New ideas for F2/F3. Based on new user feedback (eg: Lonewolf Kai.3682)

F2 just gives Endurance (regardless of the Legend).
F3 is a reset -> resets the loadout to default, the default can be picked with a trait allowing to choose if you want to be mopre offensive or defensive. Should have a different effect when attuned to a core legend (a boon?)

or

F2 just gives Endurance (regardless of the Legend).
F3 is a lock -> locks the loadout to the current one and doesn't make the skills flip until toggled. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[ProtoGunner.4953]

5 minutes ago, Deadvillager.1956 said:

There is just a lot of people in here that want to have a fun AND viable spec coming february

Yeah of course, they will analyse data and change stuff. And yes of course it is good to give feedback, but please remain respectful towards what they did. It's not the end of the world, it's a beta. (not talking about you but btw)

[Kidel.2057]

3 minutes ago, ProtoGunner.4953 said:

Yeah of course, they will analyse data and change stuff. And yes of course it is good to give feedback, but please remain respectful towards what they did. It's not the end of the world, it's a beta. (not talking about you but btw)

most people are being respectful, praising what's to be praised and bashing what's to be bashed. 

The community seems unanimous on the fact that the spec is based on a cool idea (dodge, gs, double legend) but needs some major and minor tweaks. Some things (such as the jumps or the CC) just need minor adjustments. Other things require some deep changes (F2, Urn). 

I'll be maining this spec, since I've faith it will be fixed somehow. The fact is that I doubt they'll make the big changes required for F2. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Caligrafers Blade.3871]

I want to love the Vindicator,  I really do, but I'm afraid I will have to echo most of what has already been discussed. 

This is from a pvp pov. 

 

Flip Flop

Flip isn't working. For one, there's not enough energy to be able to use that many utilties. e.g to get to Vik, I have to go through Arch first. With weapons skills also being used, I'm almost of energy, so there' no point hitting F2 ti flip. I already need to switch out of Alliance by then. 

Then there's the CD anyway. So flip wasted right there. 

Plus they are way too expensive. Instant drain. Maybe cut it half? 

 

To the Viktor go the spoils

Battle Dance needs to be instant. 

Urn (with CD) is suicide.  Also, annoying animation.

Does this guy really heal? 

Um.. CC? 

 

Arche more fuss

We have his rage but no fury?

Spear cast too long and not much damage. 

Also single target. 

Underwhelming animation. 

Ahem.. CC? 

 

Not such a great sword

Almost a great idea. 

Needs more speed and movement.  And damage. And fury. And...CC? 

 

Dodge wiper

Another great idea but needs to be faster or more controlled.

Tool tip might need to mention LoS. 

Animation lock post dodge is a wipe out. 

 

Trait-tore!

Too much focus on endurance/Alliance. 

Could definitely do with some damage modifiers.

Leviathan is a monster of a problem. 

 

Vindicate Us!

Overall, I love the idea, and it's a brave and wonderful attempt. 

Just a bit more refinement, please? I really want to love it. 

 

 

 

 

[Kidel.2057]

1 minute ago, Caligrafers Blade.3871 said:

cut

10/10 titles. And content. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 hours ago, Cougre.6543 said:

I would like to point out that all of the art added by Vindicator ranges between unfitting and ugly. The bright blue/orange theme is garish and doesn't look right at all among all of the other legends that have one dominant colour and many gradients and shades of it, nearly every skill icon in the kit is missing the white-grayish and red accents that are a hallmark of revenant by now, and revenant weapon skills don't have those hues of blue in them like the greatsword does.

Since I’m seeing this comment a lot We should probably clear up this misconception:

 

 Gray and red color combo is ONLY a “hallmark” of CORE rev weapons. Every elite follows Elite colors. Herald’s shield icons maintain Herald’s white/light blue color palette.  Renegades shortbow icons are ALL Renegade’s dark blues/oranges/reds.  GS on Vindicator follows the “Blue/Red” theme of its respective legends. This doesn’t need to be changed as it’s internally consistent with the entirety of the class. 
 

Some Red accents could be added to the Viktor/Archemorous utility Skills, but I imagine they didn’t add those in order to have very clear differences between them since they’re flip skills and thus more confusing than regular revenant legends 

Edited September 22, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Kidel.2057]

2 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Since I’m seeing this comment a lot We should probably clear up this misconception:

 

1) Gray and red color combo is ONLY a “hallmark” of CORE rev weapons. Every elite follows Elite colors. Herald’s shield icons maintain Herald’s white/light blue color palette.  Renegades shortbow icons are ALL Renegade’s dark blues/oranges/reds.  GS on Vindicator follows the “Blue/Red” theme of its respective legends. This doesn’t need to be changed as it’s internally consistent with the entirety of the class. 

true, but it's still a bit too saturated. It's just a feedback

[Zaret.1450]

if i had to make changes on the dps side(wich i am more interested in)

1 an f3 to lock archemorus or vicktor and f2 simply refills the dodge without energy drain or swaps to vicktor if were not locked(most people will lock surely)

2 make the dodge trigeable i mean you press dodge once and start the dodge and press again to land when you want(of course if you dont press you stay on air a certain amount of time) also the dps dodge being 150 endurance is toooooo much make it 100 or make it stronger please.

3 buff archemorus dmg all skills deal dmg but please at least the lance and the explosion you should give it more dmg also the heal istead of a chanel make its dmg being pasive(so you can attack and have heal dmg tic, not much but less is what we have now)

4 gs needs more dmg, at least make gs5 deal more dmg or a way to land more hits on enemies because right now unless youre surounded you just land a couple of hits (i know it is meant this way but on smaller boses we need more targeted dmg instead of a, be lucky to land hits dmg)

[Sagarsdude.3209]

Idk if this has been mentioned but the dodge mechanic just needs to go away. It actively detracts from the viability of this class, because to get any value out of this class we now we have to maximize the gimmick that is our dodge. The same thing has happened with mirage, the only viable builds are ones where it perma dodges so that it can continue to spam its gimmick which is mirage cloak and have high invuln uptime. Here is my suggestion for the vindicator dodge:

 

1. Revert dodge to just being a normal dodge, please don't touch this

2. Scrap the current elite skills, they feel very bad and are very low value in most pvp/wvw scenarios

3. Move the current dodge mechanic to the elite, I think that having regular dodges and this aoe leap on the elite would make for a very fun playstyle

4. I suggest that the current dodge mechanic be used on the elite, I will further add that on the archemorus elite it should do the damage and on the other one it should do the heal (the effects of the current top gm trait and bottom gm trait)

5. Rework the GM traits into something else

 

Having only 1 dodge makes for very 1-dimensional gameplay (ironically) and just makes the entire class gimmicky. I think that greatsword and even the new alliance legend are fine but the dodge and elites have got to go.

[Infusion.7149]

From some testing yesterday it seems as though it is more of an openworld spec (5 target cleave does that). Fully buffed you can get 23-25K autoattacks with Impossible Odds or Vengeful Hammers and there's Battle Scars synergy on Greatsword due to vulnerability. If you try to use it in PVP/WVW I've noticed the reliability on the new legend is quite poor due to flip skills. I think it would be better if you were able to control which skill is default but I haven't quite looked in depth on that aspect.

What I noticed with the new legend is the elite (urn of saint victor) is more or less suicidal on one half and the spear of archemorus has a fake wind up and travel time. I would say the urn should probably stop external healing as the penalty, while not hurting the user as the healing coefficient is merely 0.22. Have it self-bleed or something would be more thematic I think and also more managable. In essence it is worse than Renegade's Soulcleave summit pre-nerf.

Part of what makes herald attractive is the stunbreak and the invuln on infuse light when stunbreaks are exhausted. Reaver's Rage (35 energy in competitive) could probably do no damage at all in competitive modes, right now it has the same downside as Lightning Reflexes on rangers.

Redemptor's Sermon needs reimagining. The skill is sort of passive and it will trigger when you don't necessarily want it. It should probably always clear poison, which is a soft counter to healing.

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[MatyrGustav.6210]

22 hours ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

Initial impressions on design:

Trait and Mechanic Design

• F2 needs a different mechanic or addition. The ability just feels unrewarding when using outside Legendary Alliance. I feel almost punished for using it any other stance. Idea for change at the end of feedback.
• Adept traits are another feelsbad design moment outside of Alliance stance. There are 2 traits that directly affect Legendary Alliance stance and the only other option is a 90 sec ICD in PvP that will be mandatory if you don't want to use Legendary Stance.
• Balance in Discord is nice Legend swap idea but yet again, another benefit to ONLY Alliance stance? Why are we being punished for not using Legendary Stance?
• Song of Arboreum and Saint of zu Heltzer synergy is real. It will be lots of dodge with this combo and will be really good. Like a 5 sec CD between dodges.

IMO, the design of traits around Legendary Alliance is frustrating as a player. It limits customization and build crafting. Renegade has a meta PvP build with Jalis/Shiro and doesn't use Renegade stance. I think this is good design and should be a design goal for all professions.

F2 Mechanic Suggestion

Unexpected Alliance - F2 now grants 50 energy and 1 free Legend Swap without a cooldown. Using Unexpected Alliance while in Legendary Alliance Stance will instead flip utility skills.

• This will allow players to use Vindicator without Alliance stance by "flipping" Legends for free without cooldown similar to how it is now for Alliance stance. This will create some fun plays with the free legend swap.

Will probably have more feedback after some more testing in PvP.

 

 

I play support Vindicator and use the healing stomp. Th F2 giving me endurance is my bread and butter allowing me to support very well when combined with Ventari tablet. The main new feature about the class is the dodge mechanic, the f2 is perfect. Please dont change Anet. 

 

 

[ens.9854]

1 hour ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

There's an easy solution to that, but I'm not sure if Anet is willing to go for it. It's typical of game designers - any game designer, regardless of company - to be proud of their unique mechanics and resist dismantling them. And the solution is simply: split the Alliance legend into two. There. It would fix a lot of other problems with the espec as well. For players that don't like the red side or the blue side, you would give them the option to pick one or the other, instead of the current frankensteined band-aid solution that is F2.

 

How about we just pick which utility we want individually? Then f2 can give you temporary access to the opposite skill or something. Preferably instant cast.

Edited September 22, 2021 by ens.9854

[Genesis.8572]

I'm not sure how I feel about the Vindicator after a day of playtesting. Overall, it feels like it's trying too much with no clear identity or internal synergy and as a result, it doesn't really pull anything off particularly well. 

 

Jump/Dodge: How does the "jump dodge" tie into the idea with being a Vindicator or the Luxon/Kurzick Alliance? The Daredevil gets triple dodges because it's more acrobatic. The Mirage gets the mirage cloak because it is being deceptive and illusory. The Vindicator dodge feels a bit like it's just trying to do something different for the sake of being different without really bothering to figure out whether it really adds anything to the gameplay, whether mechanically or thematically. It feels unintuitive, again in contrast with both the Daredevil and Mirage. It also feels a bit unrewarding overall despite the ridiculous amount of traits that are dedicated to make this gimmick dodge "viable." All the dodge traits seem to suffocate the traitline of other e-spec defining traits or damage buffs that really change how the e-spec is played. 

 

In a lot of open world large scale events, the Vindicator's dodge feels like a death sentence, where you will get battered and bruised around, CC'ed, and tossed around like a rag doll in all the AoE effects. So the best you can do is rely on your back jump evades and the stability skills to do the work that normally dodge does. But the dodge itself doesn't feel like it works well in these contexts either. I'm still not sure what the baseline Reward for this dodge is versus the massive Risks that come with using something so basic as dodging in a game that wants us to be constantly dodging in open world or more recent living story episodes. I guess the reward is being able to position your Vindicator in your AoE death-trap of choice? 

 

It also feels as if Energy sigils on weapons are a MUST HAVE just so you can have at least one working dodge, which does not feel good. I'm okay with at least one must have sigil, such as Force or Bursting, but a second MUST HAVE sigil just to make my dodge mechanic function more fluidly does not feel good. It feels crippling, especially for character customization and gearing. 

 

Greatsword: It feels pretty okay as a weapon. It has nice cleave and AoE, but it also lacks in damage compared to other weapons on the same gear set on other revenant specializations. More importantly, much as others in this thread have said, the Vindicator Greatsword doesn't really feel like a cohesive weapon kit. It feels more like a generic greatsword kit that was garbled together from other professions' greatsword kits but it seems to lack much synergy, functionality, or identity to it. Moreover, I'm not really sure how the Greatsword is supposed to fit in with the support side of the Alliance or thematically with the Alliance at all. 

 

* Aesthetics: The weapon icons look more like Guardian icons than Revenant ones colorwise. Also, I feel like the Virtuoso got the entirety of the animation budget, because the animation budget for the Vindicator feels incredibly underwhelming. It feels like a lot of reused animations were just recycled to make a generic greatsword. Contrasting the Vindicator Greatsword animations with the Renegade Shortbow animations is like night and day. 

 

Utilities: The utility flipping feels a little over-complicated and wonky, especially with the addition of cooldowns on top of the upkeep. It kind of reminds me of how clunky and unusable the entire Revanant profession was in HoT beta testing. Using the F2 to flip all the utilities generally meant that the utilities I wanted to use were a constant mess that was difficult to keep track of. As one commentator said, I felt more like I was playing the UI and having to pay attention to that than I was the action going on. I think that the stability and evade utilities are MUST HAVE and highly valuable for a specialization with a crippled dodge mechanic. But the whole selfish vs. support aspect wasn't really all that interesting, since I was more concerned with getting stability or evading than I was whether it was pro-DPS or pro-support. Also, the lack of CC on this specialization is pretty glaring, especially if this supposed to contribute to open world events. But I guess who needs CC on the spec when you added those annoying waystation tables that stick out like a sore thumb in the open world? Ugh. 

I think that being able to pick and choose the utilities that I want on this Alliance would be much better than a needlessly gimmicky flipping mechanic. Plus, it would offer the Revenant something that it doesn't have: i.e., utility choices on a "single" legend. Then we wouldn't need cooldowns on it. Then the identities of the DPS and support side could be clearer without having to perform double-duty or mirror image each other. 

 

Elites: I'm underwhelmed by both Elites, and I can't really imagine myself using them on a regular basis. I was using the standard Maruader gear, which is likely what I would use in open world or story. The Spear did only about 2K on the Maruader gear, which was just double the standard Greatsword 1 attack. Talk about underwhelming for a damaging elite. Maybe if there was a wind-up hold down mechanic for it, similar to the Bladesworn's ability, that allows you to get more damage for holding it down longer. Or maybe add some actual CC on this spec with this Elite, please! However, using the Spear (for lack of anything better) runs the risk of flipping the terrible Urn of Saint Victor elite, which I only found myself using out of combat. It feels more like a deadweight death-trap on a character who is not geared for support side of the Alliance. 

 

Legendary Alliance: I'm not sure what the identity of this Alliance Legendary is supposed to be. Is it a DPS/support hybrid? Okay? But this is something that Revanant could easily do with Shiro/Jalis or Shiro/Ventari. Like the Alliance, Shiro also has an engage and disengage utility, and it doesn't have to rely on utility flipping to have the right one up at a given time. So the Alliance kit feels almost redundant with the existing legends, and it doesn't offer anything new apart from an awkward and unintuitive dodge mechanic that doesn't really have much payoff. There are other legends and specializations who do similar things, if not better, than what the Alliance does. The Renegade and Herald both seem to offer so much more group boon support while still pumping out more reliable DPS.

 

So in the words of the Bobs from Office Space, when I'm looking at the Legendary Alliance I can't help but ask: "What would you say... ya do here?" Please give this e-spec a clear and competitive identity, both mechanically and thematically. Right now, the Vindicator feels like a garbled mess of half-baked mechanics rather than a specialization with a clear niche or identity. 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Genesis.8572

[MatyrGustav.6210]

I actually love the Elite Spec.

 

Love the new Dodge Mechanic, especially that we can select a healing version. Love that the f2 ability grants Endurance for more stomp dodging. I also would like a different animation when heal stomping. I wouldn't want the ground shattering since its strictly a heal.

 

What i would change is the Urn a little. The urn should also grant you stability while open, or control over the urn when stunned or knocked down  just like the ventari tablet. You can die if knocked down if you have the urn open because you cant control it.. 

[TheLastAaron.4923]

After playing with vindicator a while here are my thoughts. Greatsword is a pretty fun weapon and is very promising but most of my negative reaction comes with vindicator legend itself.

 

The dodge: Honestly I don't like the dodge. It makes the class feel clunky and more often then not gets you killed after you use it. Personally i feel like this skill should be like an f2/f3 rev skill thats an invuln that ends with damage or whatever the grandmaster traits are so that its not that spammable or its not an anchor that gets vindicator killed all the time. The way you have it set up with one dodge to make it less spamable is not really a solution to this. This is a work around that makes this skill a thing and you can control by putting a relevant cool down to it.

 

Vindicator legend utilities: This feels like a clunky herald. Whats the point of having two legends in one when its literally just herald but clunkier. The f2 should really be a legend swap when your in alliance stance that refreshes your energy. So you actually have two legends and can legend swap between them in alliance stance. The way you have it set up is way to confusing and impossible to plan for. You use 3/5 skills and then you swap to shiro for example. When you swap back from shiro its still the 3/5 skills used. You still wanna use all your half your skills on your hot bar and ideally the swapped skills but at that point its not worth swapping for the energy cost. It just promotes never using your f2 and leaving you with what feels like inferior herald. The only real other way outside of actually making vindicator two legends is  every time you swap from your legend (shiro jallis etcx) it resets to one alliance but thats just herald. Ideally make this alliance legend actually two legends in one and not budget herald.

 

Vindicator Elites: You go from shiro elite, herald elite, jalis elite and mallux elite and these alliance elites feel underwhelming. Personally I feel like rev elites have always been huge energy drains for big rewards if you know how to play with them. The spear is just like a press this and some extra damage (not even big damage). The urn just gets you killed. I dont understand it. The elites are super underwhelming.

 

Some skills also feel slow and clunky. The backroll in saint stance is like slower and clunkier shiro dodge roll.

[Caid.4932]

I like the endurance generation on the f2 skill. Its not perfect but that part of it feels good.

[Delgotta.3817]

using the utilities should make you WANT to flip it and weave the skills on a near rhythmic way. an offensive buff and ability that ties into a defensive buff and ability that empowers the next flip. it feels punishing to use the utilities.it opposes the nature of the flip instead of a harmonic unity. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The animation on greatsword skill 2 is identical to the first auto attack animation. They need to be different