Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Obtena.7952]

These changes are good from a PVE perspective. The skills ensure a focus on energy management vs. CD (which is how all Revenant skills should work HINT HINT ANet) and the F3 is a clincher. Still slightly disappointed that GS still shares lots of S/S features ... but that's a minor issue. 

[Kidel.2057]

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Good. Was usable and not straight garbage at PvP/WvW as Renegade at the release. The new legend provided nothing interesting and the greatsword felt slow and weak, so at least the dodge was interesting and useful, instead of a "dead on arrival" as the Willbender.

To be completely honest, the single skills of the legend were not garbage. The main issues were 4: hard management, energy consumption for the management (both F2 and the skills costed), HUGE cooldowns, high energy cost. So overall it required too much energy for its usefulness and useful skills were unavailable most of the time. I'm confident that with the new F3 and the reduced cooldowns of the patch, the legend will be useful. Except the elite skills, most of the utilities are quite nice and the healing is solid. It also provides some strong Condi cleanse on the blue side (which is something Rev doesn't really have access to). 

 

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Now we not only lost the second stack of the dodge, but the cost of the endurance is doubled. And the traits which gives us vigor procs...  After dodging, which now happens 1/2 of the time. Plus weakness wreacks vigor. Where's our Blurred Inscriptions to get i-frames to compensate the lack of evades? Why the greatsword has neither evades nor cc nor condition damage sources to allow alternative builds?

I agree with the GS part. Let me add another reason: the dodges have to be used offensively (or to actively heal), not for actual dodging. This means Rev should have access to more dodges. This is somehow mitigated by the fact that Saint Viktor skills have an extra dodge (so 2 if we also include Shiro). However GS may get some huge competition from Sword and Staff, since both provide evade frames (and strong CC). So yeah, you may have a point here.

That being said, Sain't Viktor was really too strong with that low energy cost. Also it would be better to have a stronger effect but a higher cost, otherwise you just keep spamming dodge, which is not ideal (we need to use skills somehow!)
 

 

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I called awful the Vindicator on paper, but in the beta, after ditching the useless legend and taking advantage of the viable choices, changed my mind: albeit lacked deepth in buildcrafting, at least has potential as a bruiser. Now is nothing.

I don't quite get this. Vindicator is flat out improved by those changes under every single aspect. Sure, GS may still have some problems, but has been only improved in damage and functionaly; Alliance has been improved a lot (going from flat out unusable, to actually interesting); the damaging dodges may have become actually usable (especially the big one).

What's the issue? Saint of zu Heltzer being 100 endurance? If they improved the barrier and healing accordingly, this made it much better. Less dodges to have the same healing results means that you have more time to actually use skills between dodges, for more support and more damage. This is a good change. 
 

 

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   The changes are nasty. The ones related to the Alliance and their mechanics are wellcomed, but Vindicator won't be used at PvE, and at competitive gameplay is a sitting duck.

I'd get if you said "Vindicator was awful and this did nothing", but you claim you liked it. It only got buffed, I see no nerfs (unless Saint of zu Heltzer had its healing reduced, since the notes only say that they changed it, but don't say if it has been increased or decreased)

 

[Kidel.2057]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

These changes are good from a PVE perspective. The skills ensure a focus on energy management vs. CD (which is how all Revenant skills should work HINT HINT ANet) and the F3 is a clincher. Still slightly disappointed that GS still shares lots of S/S features ... but that's a minor issue. 

Uhm Why do you say that?
S/S has invulnerability (quite long), CC, blink, block.
GS only has dash and block, plus a lot of aoe damage (I'm excited to test the new GS5), which is quite unique in Rev's arsenal. 

I wish it had some CC too (daze?) since it's something EVERY Rev weapon has. At the moment I fear it may have a lot of competition from S/S and Staff. 

[Obtena.7952]

25 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Uhm Why do you say that?
S/S has invulnerability (quite long), CC, blink, block.
GS only has dash and block, plus a lot of aoe damage (I'm excited to test the new GS5), which is quite unique in Rev's arsenal. 

I wish it had some CC too (daze?) since it's something EVERY Rev weapon has. At the moment I fear it may have a lot of competition from S/S and Staff. 

Because many of the things that S/S does, GS does as well (chill, Vuln, block/evade). It's very similar feel. But like I said ... it's a minor issue to me. The changes in Beta 4 are addressing much more significant issues I had with the spec and I'm more eager than ever to try them. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kidel.2057]

33 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Because many of the things that S/S does, GS does as well (chill, Vuln, block/evade). It's very similar feel. But like I said ... it's a minor issue to me. The changes in Beta 4 are addressing much more significant issues I had with the spec and I'm more eager than ever to try them. 

Well, chill/vuln/torment are the general condi of Revenant. All main-hand Rev weapons have at least one of them, most have at least 2. 

GS has no evade, just block, while Sword has both block and evade (kind of like staff), plus hard CC. The 2 weapons are quite different (to the point that most successfull Vindicators ditched GS for Sword or Staff), and that's not very good, since most rev weapons have invulnerability frames and CC (and that has never been an issue, it's good redundancy).

To be quite honest, I'm ok with GS not having CC and much invulnerability, I'm ok with it staying different, but there must be something to compensate for that. Especially on Vindicator because of the utility-dodges. 

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Kidel.2057 said:

To be completely honest, the single skills of the legend were not garbage. The main issues were 4: hard management, energy consumption for the management (both F2 and the skills costed), HUGE cooldowns, high energy cost. So overall it required too much energy for its usefulness and useful skills were unavailable most of the time. I'm confident that with the new F3 and the reduced cooldowns of the patch, the legend will be useful. Except the elite skills, most of the utilities are quite nice and the healing is solid. It also provides some strong Condi cleanse on the blue side (which is something Rev doesn't really have access to). 

[...]

   I agree with the GS part. Let me add another reason: the dodges have to be used offensively (or to actively heal), not for actual dodging. This means Rev should have access to more dodges. This is somehow mitigated by the fact that Saint Viktor skills have an extra dodge (so 2 if we also include Shiro)

   The only decent legend skills were the stunbreaks and the Nomad's Advance/Battle dance.

   The heals (as with the Renegade) are terrible, having a 1.5 second cast time and having a base healing ~700, which is like not having heals (actually Jalis hammers + steadfast rejuvenation TRIPLES the healing x second of those two heals combined).  The elites are even worse: a team heal which kills youself and a ranged single target burst with a 12 s cooldown which makes less damage than greatsword #2 does every 7 seconds (in AoE). It should be a cc, like a AoE pull or knockback, as any other legend for Revenant has a cc.

   Finally: you can't take the "Shiro has an evade, Battle Dance is another" as an exchange for having a single dodge with a 100 endurance unit cost. First of all, evades have a different mechanic and cost which is common to every class aside their defensive tools in weapons, skills, traits and special mechanics., whereas Ripoting Shadows (40 energy units) and battle dance (15 energy units) have a cost which share with another skills they are competing with. Using Daredevil's evades DOESN'T consume initiative, why have we to chose between preventing enemy damage and using our other skills? 

   There are builds in the game (Rangers specially) focused on rooting/dazing/chain stunning players to kill them, which works wonders in temfigths: that's why having a single evade which takes 100 endurance units to rebuild makes the Vindicator a crippled class for competitive gameplay. If they persist in having a single dodge so expensive then give us a 1200 unit mobility ranged evade so I can jump away from the source of damage, instead of a "evading attack" which hits for 1/4 of the damage of what a Deadeye strikes with a 1500 ranged attack. It' won't make the Vindicator usable, but at least they could say that the made something different.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Buran.3796
typos

[Kidel.2057]

That's fair criticism, but I'd wait to see how it plays out. And frankly that's way different from your previous comment, where you claimed that Vindicator is actually worse now. I'd also need to see if the 100 endurance dodge needs compensation or not, since endurance generation on Vindicator is crazy. I'm not quite sure about that since I don't really remember how the middle dodge felt in the first beta (I mostly used the 50 endurance one and I could easily spam it non stop)

[Caid.4932]

7 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Saint of zu Heltzer was probably a bit too strong. So much so that it alone carried Vindicator in the first beta, despite everything else being useless. Vin kicked kitten in pvp only with Saint of zu Heltzer, no GS, no Alliance. Keep in mind that, despite being 100 endurance, the endurance generation on Vindicator is off the charts and can be maxed out with no food. 

I was expecting just the endurance increase tho, not a change on barrier/heal. The notes don't say if they've nerfed or buffed the effect. We'll have to see. 

Overall I'm quite happy with the fact that the +15% strike damage dodge is now 100 endurance AND 66% stronger. This will overall increase the dps of the spec considerably, while adding a +10% from the new trait. 

I agree it still needs CC on GS, or GS needs to bring something else in exchange (invuln frames? Since dodges are offensive) and probably a rework on the 2 elite skills.

Overall we're on the right track. 👍
 

its an issue of feel and fun more than balance for me. I found the 150 endurance dodge painful and terrible, the 100 endurance dodge wasn't much better. Only the zu heltzer dodge felt like an improvement over the baseline dodges rather than a pretty significant nerf.

[TheeBlackDeath.5692]

One more change you guys need to add to Vindicator is to add a Chilled condition proc to the mist bursts of Eternity's Requiem since not only does it make more sense given the Mists, but it'll also add more viable options for Vindicator as well, especially since the damage of the bursts is reduced per target each time they are struck by them.

[Buran.3796]

7 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

That's fair criticism, but I'd wait to see how it plays out. And frankly that's way different from your previous comment, where you claimed that Vindicator is actually worse now. I'd also need to see if the 100 endurance dodge needs compensation or not, since endurance generation on Vindicator is crazy. I'm not quite sure about that since I don't really remember how the middle dodge felt in the first beta (I mostly used the 50 endurance one and I could easily spam it non stop)

   The Alliance has been improved (a lot, giving the chance of staying all the time in Archy or Kurzik) but doesn't matter to me because is still weaker than core legends so for me has no use and I don't think that will change: has been 4 years since PoF and 6 since HoT and I still don't use Ventari or Kalla, so I'm pretty confident the Alliance is not a reason for me to play the Vindicator.

   On the other hand, the evade proved to work better than I guessed, and I liked it, so there was a window for potential, even if the damage from the gs was subpar. Now, the changes nerf the evade mechanics to the point of being worse than in the Mirage, so the tradeoff is now clear: we give two dodges and in exchange we get a a new legend I have no use for (but which fortunately can ditch as with Kalla) and a new weapon which does no damage. So why I would use the Vidicator? Working in reverse order: in exchange for not running a Vindicator we earn a double evade, better sustain and much higher dps builds based on conditions.

   So: improvements in the legend qol and features but nerfs in the main mechanic which makes the spec less usable and appealing to use. I'll buy my gems with gold this Black Friday because this is heading towards 2-3 years keeping Herald and Renegade without touching the Vindicator, and that makes me feel bad about money whichj already spent in the expansion...

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Changes sound really good.  Can’t wait to try them out.  I wonder if the landing animation has been completely removed altogether though. Really hope not. Sure it locked you in place, but it looked so freaking cool.  Hopefully it’s just the animation lock and not the animation fully.

 

@Kidel.2057 I’m pretty sure it’s only slightly adjusted.  It was fairly op with 50 endurance. Making it 100 is more balanced if the numbers don’t change much. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Ulysses.2058]

Loving the changes, the feedback assessment and the communication. This is definitely the way to go, so we should give our devs credit for all of this.

There's still stuff to work on (I still think the master traits need a rework, all three of them working around endurance is the opposite of diversity and the trait system goal), but seeing how they addressed the most important stuff I'm confident the e-spec is on the right track.

Overall really nice work on the spec, looking forward to playing next beta and hoping they keep up listening to our feedback and improving Vindicator! 

[DonArkanio.6419]

The animation for Vindicator's dodge could be jumping in and out of the Mist Portals.

Something similar to the VFX on the character during regular dodge, Sword 3, Staff 5. Or a portal resembling one from Renegade's Citadel Bombardment, or the Revenant's Mail Courier.

I think this would perfectly fit the profession's theme and look so much better than the weird 100m jump.

[Pariax.9674]

I feel like the changes have huge implications for the gameplay mechanic as well as feel of the vindicator, without addressing core issues of the spec. 

I am not quite clear on the direction Anet is taking the Vindicator now, so here are a couple of suggestions that could improve the Vindicator, based on direction taken. If you are no fan of suggestions, just scroll by! 🙂 

 

Option 1:

Make Archemorus and St. Victor separate Legends.

Pro:

3 Legends as clear fantasy and synergy with established legend swapping

Space for interesting F2

Contra:

Focus on 1 Legend leads to 1 lackluster Legend

partially underused fantasy and skills

 

This is basically what Beta 4 will play like. Having the defacto legend swap as F2 keeps it from having any synergy while having the same Issues as this suggestion. 

 

Option 2:

Make Skills swap on Use but combined with the cheap Switch-Over F2 from Beta 4

Pro:

Close to original

Playstyle adaptable

Contra:

cluttered skillset with non-optimizable effects

Powerbudget used for unattractive options

partially underused fantasy and skills

 

This is a combination of Beta 2 and Beta 4. It creates a dynamic and demanding hybrid playstyle with high player-control. Does not adress the "hybrid trap" issues a lot of people worry about.

 

Option 3: 

I created a medium range suggestion for changes that would keep the Design idea and current playstyles 

intact while opening up more playstyles that focus more strongly on damage or support. You can find it here: 

 

The Attention to community feedback is greatly appreciated and the changes so far give hope! Hope we have the time to get there and make Vindicator an awesome experience! 

[duck.6804]

Yeah just make 2 separate legends seems like a great idea to me.. I mean why not? It would make space for interesting f2,3,4s..

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

20 hours ago, Pariax.9674 said:

I feel like the changes have huge implications for the gameplay mechanic as well as feel of the vindicator, without addressing core issues of the spec. 

I am not quite clear on the direction Anet is taking the Vindicator now, so here are a couple of suggestions that could improve the Vindicator, based on direction taken. If you are no fan of suggestions, just scroll by! 🙂 

 

Option 1:

Make Archemorus and St. Victor separate Legends.

Pro:

3 Legends as clear fantasy and synergy with established legend swapping

Space for interesting F2

Contra:

Focus on 1 Legend leads to 1 lackluster Legend

partially underused fantasy and skills

 

This is basically what Beta 4 will play like. Having the defacto legend swap as F2 keeps it from having any synergy while having the same Issues as this suggestion. 

 

Option 2:

Make Skills swap on Use but combined with the cheap Switch-Over F2 from Beta 4

Pro:

Close to original

Playstyle adaptable

Contra:

cluttered skillset with non-optimizable effects

Powerbudget used for unattractive options

partially underused fantasy and skills

 

This is a combination of Beta 2 and Beta 4. It creates a dynamic and demanding hybrid playstyle with high player-control. Does not adress the "hybrid trap" issues a lot of people worry about.

 

Option 3: 

I created a medium range suggestion for changes that would keep the Design idea and current playstyles 

intact while opening up more playstyles that focus more strongly on damage or support. You can find it here: 

 

The Attention to community feedback is greatly appreciated and the changes so far give hope! Hope we have the time to get there and make Vindicator an awesome experience! 

 

4 hours ago, duck.6804 said:

Yeah just make 2 separate legends seems like a great idea to me.. I mean why not? It would make space for interesting f2,3,4s..

No thx

[Za Shaloc.3908]

22 hours ago, DonArkanio.6419 said:

The animation for Vindicator's dodge could be jumping in and out of the Mist Portals.

Something similar to the VFX on the character during regular dodge, Sword 3, Staff 5. Or a portal resembling one from Renegade's Citadel Bombardment, or the Revenant's Mail Courier.

I think this would perfectly fit the profession's theme and look so much better than the weird 100m jump.

 

Yeah I wish they would do this. The jumping animation just goes too far into the realm of cheese for me. It looks so comical to me. Devs are probably too proud of the "Death Drop" trait name to wanna change it though 😂.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

34 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

Yeah I wish they would do this. The jumping animation just goes too far into the realm of cheese for me. It looks so comical to me. Devs are probably too proud of the "Death Drop" trait name to wanna change it though 😂.

I like the way it is personally, but what maybe cheese to you is cool to me. /shrug

[Za Shaloc.3908]

22 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I like the way it is personally, but what maybe cheese to you is cool to me. /shrug

 

Surely, it is a matter of taste, I just happen to value my taste more lol.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

5 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

Surely, it is a matter of taste, I just happen to value my taste more lol.

Well you know what they say about opinions, ie tastes, everyone has one.  Although, mine happens to be right 😁👍

[Jah Warrior.9682]

If greatsword got some cc ability and the archemorus spear elite dmg was buffed, Vindicator would be in a really good spot. Very good changes already though. 

[Kidel.2057]

21 hours ago, duck.6804 said:

Yeah just make 2 separate legends seems like a great idea to me.. I mean why not? It would make space for interesting f2,3,4s..

No thanks. The way it is now after the change is basically having 3 legends. It's much better to have a full extra kit compared to "a useful f3,4,etc" (f2 is already useful). 

Example given: I can be a fully damage-oriented Vindicator and decide to use f3 (for free) to quickly heal back. Or I can use 2 healing skills back to back. Or I can play safe with the blue side, using the dodge and the defensive buffs, until I can do damage bursts with Shiro + Archemorus. 

If they do like you suggested, then it means you have to pick between one of the 2 at build time. This could also require a lot of work to adjust the lore and the dialogue, since the 2 legends talk to each other (and to Shiro). 
 

On 11/26/2021 at 8:13 PM, DonArkanio.6419 said:

The animation for Vindicator's dodge could be jumping in and out of the Mist Portals.

Something similar to the VFX on the character during regular dodge, Sword 3, Staff 5. Or a portal resembling one from Renegade's Citadel Bombardment, or the Revenant's Mail Courier.

I think this would perfectly fit the profession's theme and look so much better than the weird 100m jump.

For the love of god, no. Please don't put extra unnecessary effort into an animation that is already fine. If they had budget for animations I'd like them to use it to make GS animations look cooler and unique (floaty GS?)
 

On 11/26/2021 at 1:49 AM, Buran.3796 said:

   The Alliance has been improved (a lot, giving the chance of staying all the time in Archy or Kurzik) but doesn't matter to me because is still weaker than core legends so for me has no use and I don't think that will change: has been 4 years since PoF and 6 since HoT and I still don't use Ventari or Kalla, so I'm pretty confident the Alliance is not a reason for me to play the Vindicator.

   On the other hand, the evade proved to work better than I guessed, and I liked it, so there was a window for potential, even if the damage from the gs was subpar. Now, the changes nerf the evade mechanics to the point of being worse than in the Mirage, so the tradeoff is now clear: we give two dodges and in exchange we get a a new legend I have no use for (but which fortunately can ditch as with Kalla) and a new weapon which does no damage. So why I would use the Vidicator? Working in reverse order: in exchange for not running a Vindicator we earn a double evade, better sustain and much higher dps builds based on conditions.

   So: improvements in the legend qol and features but nerfs in the main mechanic which makes the spec less usable and appealing to use. I'll buy my gems with gold this Black Friday because this is heading towards 2-3 years keeping Herald and Renegade without touching the Vindicator, and that makes me feel bad about money whichj already spent in the expansion...

I don't know if they nerfed the healing jump. The notes are a bit unclear but we'll have to see. If they mad the effect stronger to compensate for the greater endurance needed, I'd argue it's better now. It lets you do other stuff instead of jumping around all the time doing only mitigation. And, to be honest, it was a bit overpowered in the latest beta and didn't even allow to test out the rest of the class properly. 

I agree on what you sait about Kalla. That's still terrible to use in some game modes, but that's more of an issue with its core design (and I think it is usable in pve, not sure tho). 

Play the next beta and give feedback. I'm sure that it's going to be more constructive now that they addressed the elephant in the room and now that Saint's Shield is not going to overshadow everything else in pvp. 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Kidel.2057
added another reply

[Pariax.9674]

On 11/28/2021 at 11:27 AM, Kidel.2057 said:

No thanks. The way it is now after the change is basically having 3 legends. It's much better to have a full extra kit compared to "a useful f3,4,etc" (f2 is already useful). 

Example given: I can be a fully damage-oriented Vindicator and decide to use f3 (for free) to quickly heal back. Or I can use 2 healing skills back to back. Or I can play safe with the blue side, using the dodge and the defensive buffs, until I can do damage bursts with Shiro + Archemorus. 

If they do like you suggested, then it means you have to pick between one of the 2 at build time. This could also require a lot of work to adjust the lore and the dialogue, since the 2 legends talk to each other (and to Shiro). 
 

For the love of god, no. Please don't put extra unnecessary effort into an animation that is already fine. If they had budget for animations I'd like them to use it to make GS animations look cooler and unique (floaty GS?)
 

I don't know if they nerfed the healing jump. The notes are a bit unclear but we'll have to see. If they mad the effect stronger to compensate for the greater endurance needed, I'd argue it's better now. It lets you do other stuff instead of jumping around all the time doing only mitigation. And, to be honest, it was a bit overpowered in the latest beta and didn't even allow to test out the rest of the class properly. 

I agree on what you sait about Kalla. That's still terrible to use in some game modes, but that's more of an issue with its core design (and I think it is usable in pve, not sure tho). 

Play the next beta and give feedback. I'm sure that it's going to be more constructive now that they addressed the elephant in the room and now that Saint's Shield is not going to overshadow everything else in pvp. 

 

My Suggestion to make them separate Legends didnt mean you would have to choose one, but rather giving you Both (+ 1 Core) when choosing vindicator.

Like you said, currently its basically a legend swap, but it doesnt synergize in any way with swapping. So this idea was basically: make it 2 full legends so we profit from swapping synergies and to remove the clutter (allows to swap freely between core and any of the vindicator legends with 1,2,3)

[Kidel.2057]

7 minutes ago, Pariax.9674 said:

 

My Suggestion to make them separate Legends didnt mean you would have to choose one, but rather giving you Both (+ 1 Core) when choosing vindicator.

Like you said, currently its basically a legend swap, but it doesnt synergize in any way with swapping. So this idea was basically: make it 2 full legends so we profit from swapping synergies and to remove the clutter (allows to swap freely between core and any of the vindicator legends with 1,2,3)

3 equippable legends is either OP (no global CD for swap) or flat out worse (global CD for swap). Plus requires to change the UI and would probably mess up the template system. 

[TheeBlackDeath.5692]

Gimme Chill on GS5 PLS