Did these people play the same spec as we did?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

At this point, reddit might be saying its good, if only because Virtuoso met the standard of bare competency.  It's the Mendoza line for the EOD specs.  I sat and thought about the other specs for awhile, and as it stands a lot of these specs have a lot of problems that make me not want to play them.  My top 3 for going into EoD blind right now are the Mechanist, the Harbinger, and at third place is... Virtuoso.  I don't expect Virt to do a lot, except for shooting enemies at far range with glowing daggers.  I enjoy the Deadeye for doing the same thing, and it is good to learn new content with a healthy engagement range.  

Difference is DE has an interesting kit with stealth, mobility, cc and good damage whereas Virt lacks everything. 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Difference is DE has an interesting kit with stealth, mobility, cc and good damage whereas Virt lacks everything. 

Definitely, but I think that's the point.  The mesmer already has a diverse toolkit in core and complicated mechanics for its other specializations.  The lack of clones, the generic utilities, the traits that all customize blades, it is meant to pair down the mesmer into a simpler, more straightforward package.  It doesn't have the strengths of clones, but it doesn't have the weaknesses, either.

I know it sounds weird at first, but the Ele forum has been asking for something similar to this for awhile.  There's a reoccurring suggestion for a 2-attunement spec that has really strong skills, but limits itself to only having 2 attunements.  They didn't get that with Catalyst, but the Virtuoso is designed with a similar philosophy.  

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The mesmer already has a diverse toolkit in core

Half of which doesn't work with Virtuoso and the other half has been gutted to make sure Chrono is kitten.

[Tseison.4659]

38 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Half of which doesn't work with Virtuoso and the other half has been gutted to make sure Chrono is kitten.

Additionally, I think people are FORGETTING that the majority of us don't want to be carrying the SAME.UTILITIES every expansion. This would've been a perfect opportunity to get Virtuoso something fresh, some mobility, hard CC but no, we get two skills which are essentially the same (rain of swords & sword of decimation), a break stun knockback which to be honest, would've rather the Catalyst windstorm than what we got, Blade renewal which should've been on F4 to begin with and then a clunky elite which is essentially Rain of Swords but positioned horizontally.... 

 

In WvW/PvP situations, Blink is already a staple, then we need a breakstun and then our last choice is all situational. Anet is already handing out free mobility skills  and  yet we didn't get any. So no, the Mesmers kit isn't that diverse if we've been taking the same skills throughout all the expansions WITH the exception of 1 or 2 new ones from a new elite depending on the situation...

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Definitely, but I think that's the point.  The mesmer already has a diverse toolkit in core and complicated mechanics for its other specializations.  The lack of clones, the generic utilities, the traits that all customize blades, it is meant to pair down the mesmer into a simpler, more straightforward package.  It doesn't have the strengths of clones, but it doesn't have the weaknesses, either.

I know it sounds weird at first, but the Ele forum has been asking for something similar to this for awhile.  There's a reoccurring suggestion for a 2-attunement spec that has really strong skills, but limits itself to only having 2 attunements.  They didn't get that with Catalyst, but the Virtuoso is designed with a similar philosophy.  

Are you telling me that core thief doesn't have a diverse toolkit? And thus only DE support the elite spec with mobility and cc? 

The fact that core mesmer has blink and gs cripple is no excuse to the lack of mobility and cc on virtuoso. 

And again Virt is the only spec that hasn't given mobility at all from the 9. Even if the spec worked on range (and it doesn't) how the heck do you expect to keep the distance?

Eles wanted a two attunement with really strong skills, I get it, care to enlighten me where are the strong skills on Virt? 

[Borked.6824]

On 10/27/2021 at 7:13 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The spec isn't broken because it doesn't have clones. It is broken because it has nothing replacing them in the sustain and sustain damage department.

Mesmers use clones as defense, deception and they provide sustain damage on condi builds (staff and scepter without clones don't work). 

ANerf didn't thought about it and didn't add anything in compensation.

To add to this the new shatters are the sameish except they do lower damage, require more resource, have high cast times and are strafeable. 

F3 is the perfect example how clueless ANerf is, F3 is both use to setup burst (which you can't on Virt since IP is gone) and rupt - which you can't because of the high cast time. 

Virt also has no mechanic, and the dagger skills have no purpose (it is also the only profession without 5weapon skills on an xpac). 

It is a ranged damage dealer but doesn't have the tools to keep foes at bay and it doesn't have mobility, in fact it is the only spec without mobility on EoD). 

Traits are also bland and for the most part useless.

Virt doesn't need balance, it's a spec dead at birth and requires a total redesign. 

 

Here's the thing.  I'm one of those pesky non-mesmer mains lauding the changes.  I play my Mesmer somewhat frequently, but every time I do...every time, I ask myself the question.  "Why would I play this bloated, overly-complicated, outdated class that takes 10x the effort to get 1x the gain, over my other classes that at most have to invest 5x the effort to achieve equal gain?  Why would anyone?".  The profession as a whole needs "pruning" to reach people who have not been obstinately maining the class for a decade, and while the Virtuoso is not profoundly transforming it on the levels of some of the other specs, it's doing a very good job of improving quality of life.  If people like their Mesmer so much, they can disown the new spec altogether and continue doing what you're doing now.  

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

 

4 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Additionally, I think people are FORGETTING that the majority of us don't want to be carrying the SAME.UTILITIES every expansion. This would've been a perfect opportunity to get Virtuoso something fresh, some mobility, hard CC but no, we get two skills which are essentially the same (rain of swords & sword of decimation), a break stun knockback which to be honest, would've rather the Catalyst windstorm than what we got, Blade renewal which should've been on F4 to begin with and then a clunky elite which is essentially Rain of Swords but positioned horizontally.... 

 

In WvW/PvP situations, Blink is already a staple, then we need a breakstun and then our last choice is all situational. Anet is already handing out free mobility skills  and  yet we didn't get any. So no, the Mesmers kit isn't that diverse if we've been taking the same skills throughout all the expansions WITH the exception of 1 or 2 new ones from a new elite depending on the situation...

Honestly I can't think of a mesmer utility that wasn't used in some meta at some point in time.  They're really good:

• Reflects in Mirror, Feedback, Focus Skills
• Best Pull in the game with Focus
• Stealth with Decoy, Veil, Mass Invisibility, Signet of Midnight, Torch
• Boon Removal with Arcane Thievery, Null Field, the Domination line, 
• Portal
• Generic Toolkit (stun break, CC, Damage, cleanse) on instantaneous mantras
• AoE rez skill in Illusion of Life
• Hard CC on Diversion, Signet of Humility, Signet of Midnight, Mantra of Distraction, Pistol
• Invulnerability on Distortion
• The ability to double up most of these with Mimic
• Mobility with Blink

Look, I main Ele in WvW, and we'd kill to have that kind of skill diversity.  Nearly everything in the Ele toolkit is selfish buff, damage, stunbreak, condi cleanse.  Basically the entire core ele's utilities can be condensed down to the Mesmer Mantras, Distortion, and Blink.  That WvW/PvP situation is bog standard for every profession in the game right now.  Three out of every Five utilities is given over to the same stuff.  Engineers run Grenade Kit and Elixirs, Elementalists run Lightning Flash + Stun Break, Thieves run Stealth and Shadowstep, Guardians run a bunch of invulnerability skills and whatever DPS they can get, Warriors run a bunch of CC skills and Endure Pain, and so on.  The reason this is done is because there's usually a meta comp out there, and every profession has to run utilities to either beat this comp, or contribute meaningfully within it.  For example, WvW Mesmers don't take Feedback because Firebrand + Scrapper are the group buffers right now, and both of them have their own bubbles.  It isn't that Feedback is bad, it's role is covered elsewhere.

Your argument that it isn't diverse because it is old is nonsensical.  

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

53 minutes ago, Borked.6824 said:

Here's the thing.  I'm one of those pesky non-mesmer mains lauding the changes.  I play my Mesmer somewhat frequently, but every time I do...every time, I ask myself the question.  "Why would I play this bloated, overly-complicated, outdated class that takes 10x the effort to get 1x the gain, over my other classes that at most have to invest 5x the effort to achieve equal gain?  Why would anyone?".  The profession as a whole needs "pruning" to reach people who have not been obstinately maining the class for a decade, and while the Virtuoso is not profoundly transforming it on the levels of some of the other specs, it's doing a very good job of improving quality of life.  If people like their Mesmer so much, they can disown the new spec altogether and continue doing what you're doing now.  

Indeed, mesmer requires 10x the effort of the other professions for the same effect.
But guess what, virt will require even more effort because it's kitten.
 And I'm repeating myself again but w/e:
- Virt damage is pathetic, 2clones pb = 5 blades damage.
- Shatters are non trackable - a sidestep will make you miss all projectiles
- 5 blades takes much more effort to get than 3 clones
- No IP means no setup, again gl landing your 6k F1
- No IP also means no dry defense mechanism of blinding dissipation, rupt or f4 (oh did I say rupt? You can't rupt jackshit with the cast time and travel time of F3)
- Virt has no deception and bodyblock of clones to help sustaining
- Virt has no cc and no mobility to keep people from getting on, you meanwhile everyone else got teleports/shadowsteps.
- Heal is trash, all utilities except BR are trash, elite is the trashiest elite on game.
- Dagger is garbage, a simple aegis will nullify the only skill that deals considerable damage of the bunch (3).
- Staff and Scepter are trash on virt since there are no clones to keep pressure with autos
- GS2 is garbage and will only bounce once since there are no clones.

And no, Virt is not improving anything, Virt is a huge downgrade from core.


 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Reteiel.7063]

Not sure why people seem so stuck up on the blade retension thing. If little annoying, clone generation is pretty much never an issue, except you have to shatter the blades to get any value out of them so chances are you are not going to be starting combat with 5 blades anyway. Honestly i dont see the way virt is supposed to deal with harder ow content without the meatshields, unless somehow new maps are fundamentally different.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Are you telling me that core thief doesn't have a diverse toolkit?

No.  Dude, where are you getting that from?  I mean the exact opposite:  Deadeye is big numbers at a distance with stealth on dodge.  Virtuoso is just big numbers at a distance with some AoE skills.  These skills really do work at a distance, since they're all 1200 range.  

4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The fact that core mesmer has blink and gs cripple is no excuse to the lack of mobility and cc on virtuoso. 

And again Virt is the only spec that hasn't given mobility at all from the 9. Even if the spec worked on range (and it doesn't) how the heck do you expect to keep the distance?

Eles wanted a two attunement with really strong skills, I get it, care to enlighten me where are the strong skills on Virt? 

Mesmers already have a high mobility spec:  The Mirage.  Giving them a second one would be redundant.  Now, currently the Virt has the highest power benchmark out of all mesmer specs, so the strong skills would be Unstable Bladestorm, Rain of Swords, and Thousand Cuts.  Though I think you're exclusively talking about PVP, so there it would be Blade Renewal and Sword of Decimation.  

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

9 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

No.  Dude, where are you getting that from?  I mean the exact opposite:  Deadeye is big numbers at a distance with stealth on dodge.  Virtuoso is just big numbers at a distance with some AoE skills.  These skills really do work at a distance, since they're all 1200 range.  

Mesmers already have a high mobility spec:  The Mirage.  Giving them a second one would be redundant.  Now, currently the Virt has the highest power benchmark out of all mesmer specs, so the strong skills would be Unstable Bladestorm, Rain of Swords, and Thousand Cuts.  Though I think you're exclusively talking about PVP, so there it would be Blade Renewal and Sword of Decimation.  

Taking again thief as an example, DD is mobile and DE is also mobile with the rifle 4, and for a good reason - you can't do a ranged damage dealer without any sort of mobility and cc.

Yes, I'm talking PVP, sword of decimation is trash, you can't hit a one eyed dolyak with it due to the long animation.
BR and F2 are the only good skills in the entire elite spec. Everything apart from these two are garbage inferior to core mesmer.

[mortrialus.3062]

5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

No.  Dude, where are you getting that from?  I mean the exact opposite:  Deadeye is big numbers at a distance with stealth on dodge.  Virtuoso is just big numbers at a distance with some AoE skills.  These skills really do work at a distance, since they're all 1200 range.  

Mesmers already have a high mobility spec:  The Mirage.  Giving them a second one would be redundant.  Now, currently the Virt has the highest power benchmark out of all mesmer specs, so the strong skills would be Unstable Bladestorm, Rain of Swords, and Thousand Cuts.  Though I think you're exclusively talking about PVP, so there it would be Blade Renewal and Sword of Decimation.  

If you're playing a ranged spec, the spec needs to actually have to tools to operate as a ranged damage dealer.  Let's look at dagger's tool kit.

1. A Low velocity long range projectile that pierces. 

2.  A shotgun attack that for maximum effectiveness requires you to detarget the enemy, aim the camera at their feet and then fire.  No other utility.  At max range you can expect it to crit for about 2k on a berserker amulet vs medium golem for both sending it and the return.

3.  A projectile that fires other projectiles. No other utility.

And you can combo that dagger with either torch, or pistol, or sword, or focus.  Which gives you either a pull, a stun, or a stealth or all block but not all four. 

Right now Dagger simply does not have the tools required to be an effective ranged weapon in PvP.  And no combination offhands gets dagger up to being a viable ranged weapon.  Compare some of the other far better long range kits other classes have:

Ranger Longbow

1.  High Velocity Projectile

2.  Main damage skill, high velocity good at any range.

3.  Stealth to escape a target that gets close.

4.  Knockback to push a close target away.

5.  A long range AOE cripple that is ground targeted, applies cripple to keep targets away, and can rack up 10k damage.

Deadeye Rifle:

1.  High Velocity Projectile

2.   Cripple / Immobilize.

3.  Main damage skill, high velocity good at any range.

4.  A massive blink backwards that can be spammed if targets get close / a projectile destroying wall if someone tries to attack you from range. 

These are just more complete kits that have ways to keep people away, do good damage at max range, and get away from the target should they close the gap.   Dagger has none of these and regardless on what offhand you have it doesn't make the kit anywhere near as well rounded as those competitively.  You can get a stealth or a stun which doesn't compare to the quality of life on either of those weapon kits. 

It isn't about the idea that Virtuoso needs to be running laps around thieves for mobility.  But the kit needs to be designed with an actual strategy and win condition for the virtuoso.  A way to actually do good damage at range and not a shotgun, at least some option for when there is projectile hate, a way to keep opponents away, and an answer for when they get do get in close. 

Also why are you bringing up thousand cuts and rain of blades for PvP?  1. Both of those are balanced to do less than half of the damage as Dragon Hunter's Procession of Blades. 2.  Rain of swords has no way to trap people inside of it like ranger's Barrage applying cripple as well as doing half the damage of barrage in PvP.  3.  In PvP you will literally never hit anyone with Thousand Cuts, period. It's also balanced so that in PvP it's maximum damage is about 4k on a berserk's amulet vs medium golem.

Edited October 30, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

8 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Taking again thief as an example, DD is mobile and DE is also mobile with the rifle 4, and for a good reason - you can't do a ranged damage dealer without any sort of mobility and cc.

Yes, I'm talking PVP, sword of decimation is trash, you can't hit a one eyed dolyak with it due to the long animation.
BR and F2 are the only good skills in the entire elite spec. Everything apart from these two are garbage inferior to core mesmer.

You see, the Virtuoso has two invulnerability skills that the DE doesn't have, which lets you fire off the shotgun attacks and the sword skills when they get into melee.  Charging a virt usually results in a chain of blocks and invulnerability skills while they engage you at point blank range.

Step back for a moment.  This whole "expound on limited minutia" fight doesn't end.  It goes nowhere and takes forever.  If your emphasis is so heavy on the PVP aspect of Virtuoso, then why are you specifically trying argue against my PVE stance on the whole thing?  When I was talking about learning the new content in EoD, was it not clear that I was referring to the PVE side of the expansion?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

4 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

If you're playing a ranged spec, the spec needs to actually have to tools to operate as a ranged damage dealer.  Let's look at dagger's tool kit.

1. A Low velocity long range projectile that pierces. 

2.  A shotgun attack that for maximum effectiveness requires you to detarget the enemy, aim the camera at their feet and then fire.  No other utility.  At max range you can expect it to crit for about 2k on a berserker amulet vs medium golem for both sending it and the return.

3.  A projectile that fires other projectiles. No other utility.

And you can combo that dagger with either torch, or pistol, or sword, or focus.  Which gives you either a pull, a stun, or a stealth or all block but not all four. 

Right now Dagger simply does not have the tools required to be an effective ranged weapon in PvP.  And no combination offhands gets dagger up to being a viable ranged weapon.  Compare some of the other far better long range kits other classes have:

I'm going to have to dice this post up, because it is gigantic and there's a lot of things to cover.  First, Dagger 3 does have utility.  It works as area denial.  Other players don't want to stand in it, which means you can walk inside of it and snipe them.  Second, your argument that dagger isn't a ranged weapon because it's currently bad at it doesn't follow.  The rational deduction would be that dagger needs to be buffed to be better at ranged combat than it currently is.  Of the 12 damage-inducing skills that the Virt introduces, 10 of them work at 1200 range.  The exception being Psychic Force (450 range knockback) and Bladeturn Requiem.  This is a very strong indication that, yes, Virtuoso is supposed to be a ranged spec.  If the projectiles are too slow to be of use in PVP, then expect to see their speed get buffed.  That's what usually happens for specs that are heavy into ranged attacks.  Also, there's only one skill that loses damage while being at far range, which is dagger 2.  This means that a virtuoso is capable of doing nearly full damage at nearly full range.  

 

 

4 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Ranger Longbow

1.  High Velocity Projectile

2.  Main damage skill, high velocity good at any range.

3.  Stealth to escape a target that gets close.

4.  Knockback to push a close target away.

5.  A long range AOE cripple that is ground targeted, applies cripple to keep targets away, and can rack up 10k damage.

Deadeye Rifle:

1.  High Velocity Projectile

2.   Cripple / Immobilize.

3.  Main damage skill, high velocity good at any range.

4.  A massive blink backwards that can be spammed if targets get close / a projectile destroying wall if someone tries to attack you from range. 

These are just more complete kits that have ways to keep people away, do good damage at max range, and get away from the target should they close the gap.   Dagger has none of these and regardless on what offhand you have it doesn't make the kit anywhere near as well rounded as those competitively.  You can get a stealth or a stun which doesn't compare to the quality of life on either of those weapon kits. 

Since we're talking PVP here, it is my duty to inform you that you're putting way too much emphasis on the utility of these weapons.  The reality of each one is this:

Ranger Longbow: It has 1 skill that does good single target damage, and one skill that works on sleeping zergs.  Everything else is nearly negligible fluff that exists solely to make rapid fire hit easier.  If rapid fire fails to kill, which it usually does, the ranger then has to turn around and run like a chicken, hoping they don't get caught upon or DPS'ed down before Rapid Fire comes off of cooldown.  The entire weapon is nullified by one stunbreak and any of the multitude of skills used to stop projectiles.

Deadeye Rifle: The combat tactic for the rifle is to spam 2 while standing and lean heavily into other utilities for defense.  Skill 3 had most of its damage gutted, giving it the same damage per initiative of skill 2 while standing, but also immobile and more cumbersome to use.  In particular Death's Retreat is rarely used as an escape, because it drains the initiative pool, thus gutting the damage that the rifle can do.  The standard DE setup runs Withdraw, Shadowstep, Shadowmeld, and Roll for Initiative to avoid using Death's Retreat, because non-glass enemies have too much sustain to be killed by rifle's auto attack.  

This is all a whole lot of words to say you wish projectiles on Virt were faster.  In any practical sense, these aren't much better than dagger + x, because the number of meaningful skills they provide is either 2 or 3.  

 

4 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

It isn't about the idea that Virtuoso needs to be running laps around thieves for mobility.  But the kit needs to be designed with an actual strategy and win condition for the virtuoso.  A way to actually do good damage at range and not a shotgun, at least some option for when there is projectile hate, a way to keep opponents away, and an answer for when they get do get in close. 

 

They do, actually.  I mentioned this to Lincolnbeard above, but I wasn't being cheeky when I said it: the ability to chain invulnerability skills together is really useful.  During the entire WvW beta with the first 3 specs, while roaming solo I lost to the Harbinger 2-3 times, the Virtuoso once or twice, and the Willbender not once.  The most memorable time when I lost to a Virt solo was when I went in close for damage, and proceeded to eat and endless supply of blades from Requiem, Rain of Swords, Blade Renewal, and I assume every damage skill they had.  It was then I learned that it is a bad idea to try and power through a Virtuoso's abilities.

The Virtuoso is a ranged spec, but it isn't purely a ranged spec.  Much like Dragonhunter and Renegade, Virt still has all of the core abilities.  Virt responds to all of those problems you listed the same way that Dragonhunter and Renegade respond: weapon swap.

 

4 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Also why are you bringing up thousand cuts and rain of blades for PvP? 

When I started posting in this thread, I was originally talking about PVE.  It is an important thing to consider the spec from all angles, and not just one.  For example, in WvW I've seen every utility skill used to varying levels of effect in Zergs.  Thousand Cuts and Rain of Swords put down damage patches that shred siege and halt advances, and Sword of Decimation's 4 second immobilize is enough to isolate and kill small groups of players.  All the issues of placement and casting speed don't matter much when fighting a group of 30 keyboard turners.  

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You see, the Virtuoso has two invulnerability skills that the DE doesn't have, which lets you fire off the shotgun attacks and the sword skills when they get into melee.  Charging a virt usually results in a chain of blocks and invulnerability skills while they engage you at point blank range.

Step back for a moment.  This whole "expound on limited minutia" fight doesn't end.  It goes nowhere and takes forever.  If your emphasis is so heavy on the PVP aspect of Virtuoso, then why are you specifically trying argue against my PVE stance on the whole thing?  When I was talking about learning the new content in EoD, was it not clear that I was referring to the PVE side of the expansion?

Virt has one invuln skill, BR which if cancelled let's you attack at the same time while losing the blade gain.
There is no chain of blocks and invuln. Block of F4 is less than 2 sec, the invuln from BR is 3sec. So in total it gives roughly the same as a 4 clones distortion from core, except the block of F4 is channeled so you can't do a thing.
So the "engange you at PB" is only BR if cancelled.
 

[Tseison.4659]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt has one invuln skill, BR which if cancelled let's you attack at the same time while losing the blade gain.
There is no chain of blocks and invuln. Block of F4 is less than 2 sec, the invuln from BR is 3sec. So in total it gives roughly the same as a 4 clones distortion from core, except the block of F4 is channeled so you can't do a thing.
So the "engange you at PB" is only BR if cancelled.
 

(Sometimes I too don’t know why we even bother explaining 💩 to people)

On another note, I still think BR should swap places with Bladeturn Requiem. Not only because we’re so conditioned to having distortion on F4, but would rather have it on there instead of being forced to bring it as a utility when there’s already others that are staple. The blocks damage even though it’s defensive isn’t good, it will reveal you when used in stealth and to be honest, I think that would work better as a utility or even placed on the dagger weapon skill.

Heck, if we got dagger off hand, Bladeturn Requiem could’ve been placed on dagger 5…

[Artyport.2084]

All I think the virtuoso needs is to get rid of the phantasms and do those attacks on their own. 

 

meanwhile gaining a psionic  shield that adds extra defense and all traits effecting phantasm would effect you.

 

then you could have traits that effect the psychic shield.

 

Examples.

Psionic burst: after using your phantasm attack your psychic shield burst damaging and stunning enemies around 

 

Empathy: if a target attack you while your psychic shield is active  they receive a portion of damage applied

 

Sympathy: share your psychic shield to allies.  Allies gain extra defense and also would receive all the effects of the phantasms traits. so now the virt can give allies quickness and aegis! 
 

Also y’all need to stop complaining so much and make your feedback more positive and interesting 

[mortrialus.3062]

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm going to have to dice this post up, because it is gigantic and there's a lot of things to cover.  First, Dagger 3 does have utility.  It works as area denial. Other players don't want to stand in it, which means you can walk inside of it and snipe them.

For starters, no.  Dagger 3 is not an AOE.  It is a nondamaging projectile that fires projectiles.  There is no damage from the storm and no area denial.  The main nondamaging projectile can also be blocked with aegis and projectile destroyed negating the entire attack. 

Compare dagger 3 with Ranger Longbow 5.  Longbow 5 can be placed anywhere in range and line of sight with ground targeting.  It is a pulsing AOE that last long after the cast time.  In SPvP on a berserk amulet it can rack up over 10k damage.  It applies cripple both to keep people away from you in general and to keep people inside of the AoE.  It also gives the ranger an option for when team fights get projectile hate heavy as they have an option that will give them damage without projectiles.

Dagger 3 is a slow moving projectile that shoots projectiles that is not long range and slowly travels from the virtuoso at their location.  It has no other utility.  

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 Second, your argument that dagger isn't a ranged weapon because it's currently bad at it doesn't follow. 

I didn't say dagger wasn't a ranged weapon. I said it does not have the tools it needs to be an effective ranged weapon.  Which it doesn't.  There's no win condition or strategy to dagger.  The only thing it has is standing at range and hoping you're allowed to free cast on your opponents without them aggressing you as you have no options on dagger to set up kills.

Dagger does not have the utility to set up kills at range, it has no way to keep opponents away from you and it has no answer for when opponents get close.  You were talking about how virtuoso doesn't need additional tools.  It does. Maybe it doesn't need to be mobility in specific, although a Death's Retreat style back step would be very helpful, but it does need some way to keep people away and an answer for when they do get into melee. 

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Since we're talking PVP here, it is my duty to inform you that you're putting way too much emphasis on the utility of these weapons.  The reality of each one is this:

Yeah no, Ranger Longbow on both Soulbeast and core ranger has been meta for literally years now in SPvP alongside Greatsword. 

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Ranger Longbow: It has 1 skill that does good single target damage, and one skill that works on sleeping zergs. 

I don't care about WvW which is inherently unbalanceable .  I play SPvP. 

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Ranger Longbow: It has 1 skill that does good single target damage, and one skill that works on sleeping zergs.  Everything else is nearly negligible fluff that exists solely to make rapid fire hit easier.  If rapid fire fails to kill, which it usually does, the ranger then has to turn around and run like a chicken, hoping they don't get caught upon or DPS'ed down before Rapid Fire comes off of cooldown.  The entire weapon is nullified by one stunbreak and any of the multitude of skills used to stop projectiles.

Rapid fire is very spammable and is easily set up with Longbow 4.   And when enemies do get close you have the stealth arrow to help you get away.  Ranger longbow is an excellent kit that is well designed and has the tools it needs to succeed as a ranged damage kit.  It has been meta on ranger and soulbeast for literal years. 

If ranger longbow is nullified by one stunbreak, Virtuoso dagger is nullified without needing a stunbreak at all. 

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Deadeye Rifle: The combat tactic for the rifle is to spam 2 while standing and lean heavily into other utilities for defense.  Skill 3 had most of its damage gutted, giving it the same damage per initiative of skill 2 while standing, but also immobile and more cumbersome to use.  In particular Death's Retreat is rarely used as an escape, because it drains the initiative pool, thus gutting the damage that the rifle can do.  The standard DE setup runs Withdraw, Shadowstep, Shadowmeld, and Roll for Initiative to avoid using Death's Retreat, because non-glass enemies have too much sustain to be killed by rifle's auto attack.  

Deadeye has completely vanished from SPvP after the megabalance.  But that isn't a result of the fundamental design of the rifle.  It is an excellent kit.  It's because the megabalance is kitten for pretty much everything that isn't necromancer, herald, and ranger.

Even then, deadeye are relatively difficult to kill and have a wealth of ways to keep themselves away from a target.  

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

This is all a whole lot of words to say you wish projectiles on Virt were faster.  In any practical sense, these aren't much better than dagger + x, because the number of meaningful skills they provide is either 2 or 3.  

Faster projectiles are a must, but that's one of like 6 things that should happen.  There's a number of things dagger needs to make it viable.

1.  Dagger 2, Bladecall, needs to be good damage at any range. 

2.  Bladecall should flip over into a retreat skill as an answer for when enemies get in range.

3.   Dagger 3, Unstable Bladestorm, needs to be an AoE and not a nondamaging projectile.

4.  Unstable Bladestorm needs to have chill or cripple to trap people and keep them away from the virtuoso.

5.  Unstable Bladestorm, needs to be a ground targeted AoE that you can drop whereever you want in range and with line of sight.

If you did that, then you'd actually have a good and solid ranged kit on dagger that can be flexibly rounded out with core mesmer offhands based on preferences and needs. 

And this doesn't even cover making the Bladesongs themselves not terrible.  The F3 and F4 are especially bad. 

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

They do, actually.  I mentioned this to Lincolnbeard above, but I wasn't being cheeky when I said it: the ability to chain invulnerability skills together is really useful.  During the entire WvW beta with the first 3 specs, while roaming solo I lost to the Harbinger 2-3 times, the Virtuoso once or twice, and the Willbender not once.  The most memorable time when I lost to a Virt solo was when I went in close for damage, and proceeded to eat and endless supply of blades from Requiem, Rain of Swords, Blade Renewal, and I assume every damage skill they had.  It was then I learned that it is a bad idea to try and power through a Virtuoso's abilities.

If you're losing to Virutoso's, that's a you problem.  If Virtuoso was live in the game right now it'd be down there with Core Engineer and Ele as the worst builds in SPvP. 

In SPvP Virtuoso will run into the problem that every high damage ranged spec has to deal with; thieves.  Competent thieves are notorious for how they completely muscle out glassy high damage ranged builds like Fresh Air Ele/Weaver, Rifle Warrior, and Power Mesmer out of the game. 

Virtuoso is as big of a sitting duck free kill for thieves as you can get.  Even if you never let yourself leave no port spots and are as careful as can be stealth thieves will make their way to you and jump you and thieves always zero in on the mesmers first.  If you are lucky enough to have blades and F4 for the block, you will immediately be unblockably swiped and dazed negating your block.  If you use the invulnerability utility, you have no capacity to counter pressure the thief which as a mesmer or mirage is your only way to not get absolutely steamrolled by thieves.  And against thieves blink will not save you from them. 

This is why while mesmer and mirage aren't particularly great right now, Chrono is particularly bad, as it does not have distortion, is among the absolute bottom tier in PvP.

Like maybe if the F4 block was also a pointblank AOE that could rack up 10k damage like Dragon Hunter's blade trap it would actually discourage thieves but in SPvP it will crit for 2k if all packages of damage crit and no thief is going to be frightened away by that.  And with unblockable daze it won't even save you for the duration of the block.

This is also why Longbow Ranger is doing pretty good for itself and has been for years while Fresh Air Ele/Weaver and Power Mesmer are not particularly great.  Ranger has a gameplan for when they get attacked by thieves in being able to stealth, then from stealth very quickly knock back and rapid fire the thief also their pet provides inherent counter pressure which is the counter when jumped by thieves.  This is by no means a guaranteed win for the ranger but is is an answer whereas virtuoso has literally no response to a thief. 

8 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

When I started posting in this thread, I was originally talking about PVE.  It is an important thing to consider the spec from all angles, and not just one.  For example, in WvW I've seen every utility skill used to varying levels of effect in Zergs.  Thousand Cuts and Rain of Swords put down damage patches that shred siege and halt advances, and Sword of Decimation's 4 second immobilize is enough to isolate and kill small groups of players.  All the issues of placement and casting speed don't matter much when fighting a group of 30 keyboard turners.  

No one should care about PvE as that's a matter of "Do numbers go BRRRR?" and as long as there's a level of fluidity and enjoyment to play.  And balancing that is easy.  WvW while balance does kind of matter, it's ultimately a deliberately unbalanced game mode.  And while composition might matter on super super dedicated zergs fighting, 99/100 it's just bigger groups steamrolling smaller groups and it isn't really that much more important if one of the bigger zerg members is a thief or a necro or a virtuoso.  SPvP is where balance is uniquely immensely important. 

I can't believe you are actually talking about thousand cuts in a positive light.  You will literally never hit anything with it in SPvP. 

I also am not sure I believe the eating zergs alive hype you're talking.  Rain of Swords and Thousand Cuts in PvP/WvW both have the same damage modifier as warrior rifle 3.   And like rifle 3 is okay damage I guess but I doubt groups of warriors are just obliterating zergs casting rifle 3.

Also while placement and casting speed don't matter much when fighting keyboard turners, nothing matters when fighting keyboard turners as long as you aren't one of them. 

Virtuoso:  OP vs Keyboard Turners is not exactly a good sales pitch.

Edited October 30, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Tseison.4659]

1 hour ago, Artyport.2084 said:

Also y’all need to stop complaining so much and make your feedback more positive and interesting 

A reminder that all of our constructive feedback is in the Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged] 👍

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Artyport.2084 said:

 

Also y’all need to stop complaining so much and make your feedback more positive and interesting 

Plenty of people gave positive and interesting feedback, which is hard, because virt doesn't have any concept or design behind it, it's like they got a team of people and each one of them contributed with one idea. - A clusterkitten of nothing.

If they really wanted to solve Virt they first of all should pick ONE theme between musician, psionic and mindblade and then get the design around the one they choose.

Of course this will not happen, ANet are too proud of their own dumb ideas to acknoweldge a mistake.
 

[SkinnyT.5382]

Every time I come back to and catch up on this thread, it reinforces my original comment that some people are over reacting. Saying the spec is trash, it's kittened, it's a huge mistake;  then writing down  a laundry list of things that can very easily be addressed while still maintaining the specs current function.

Chances of Anet redoing the spec is pretty much 0. So we gotta accept the fact that it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea, and shitting on it is not going to change that. I personally hate Scourge. Just absolutely hate how it plays when compared to other specs, but I'm not gonna go over there and kitten on people who like it, because I know it wasn't meant for me.

So you got 2 options. You take the spec for what it is, and give constructive  criticism and suggestions on how to improve it's current BETA state of play. Or you can just sit and be mad about it.

 

 

 

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

Every time I come back to and catch up on this thread, it reinforces my original comment that some people are over reacting. Saying the spec is trash, it's kittened, it's a huge mistake;  then writing down  a laundry list of things that can very easily be addressed while still maintaining the specs current function.

Chances of Anet redoing the spec is pretty much 0. So we gotta accept the fact that it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea, and shitting on it is not going to change that. I personally hate Scourge. Just absolutely hate how it plays when compared to other specs, but I'm not gonna go over there and kitten on people who like it, because I know it wasn't meant for me.

So you got 2 options. You take the spec for what it is, and give constructive  criticism and suggestions on how to improve it's current BETA state of play. Or you can just sit and be mad about it.

 

 

 

Where is the option where you stop ignoring everything everybody says and stop insulting them?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2:36:55

Not only WP says it's the worst, both Brazil and Bootts say it aswell.

[SkinnyT.5382]

34 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

2:36:55

Not only WP says it's the worst, both Brazil and Bootts say it aswell.

 

Actually they didn't. The teapot guy actually said the ele first, meanwhile the guy on the bottom left even forgot about the ele and guardian's specs altogether. They basically said that the traits needed to be better for the Virt, which everyone can agree on, and it's not that hard to address when looking at the grand scale of things. It is much different then saying the new mechanic is kittened all together.  They said ele, guard, mesmer, and necro got short end of the stick. With ele being the one who they all agreed needed to have their mechanic addressed. And necro being in the same boat as the mesmer as far as traits. Also this was released before the last beta, so they didn't have actual game play opinions on the last 3 specs.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

19 minutes ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

 

Actually they didn't. The teapot guy actually said the ele first, meanwhile the guy on the bottom left even forgot about the ele and guardian's specs altogether. They basically said that the traits needed to be better for the Virt, which everyone can agree on, and it's not that hard to address when looking at the grand scale of things. It is much different then saying the new mechanic is kittened all together.  They said ele, guard, mesmer, and necro got short end of the stick. With ele being the one who they all agreed needed to have their mechanic addressed. And necro being in the same boat as the mesmer as far as traits. Also this was released before the last beta, so they didn't have actual game play opinions on the last 3 specs.

"who got screwed the hardest?"
in unison - "virtuoso"

"I remembered virtuoso but forgot about catalyst, so I don't know which one is worse"

Even non mesmer players such as those three can see that virtuoso isn't worth a kitten.
Mesmer players know that it's not only the traits that are the issue.
Again the only two things good about virtuoso is F2 and BR, everything else is trash, traits, dagger, some core weapons (gs, staff, scepter) on virt, the remaining shatters, utilities, elite, heal, concept, blade "mechanic", everything, pure garbage.
 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735