Did these people play the same spec as we did?

[Entropo.1524]

imagine complaining that people are enjoying something that u arent 

[Zoser.7245]

8 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I actually think that Minion Reaper and Necromancer are far simpler. Just summon your minions and only focus on your weapons/shroud.

Glint-camping Herald can also be played far simpler than Virtuoso.

And then there is also Five-Signet Warrior, which isn't as strong anymore, but still somewhat decent and simpler than Virtuoso.

There probably are even more builds that are simpler than Virtuoso.

Reaper and Herald  are far more deeper specializations because they offer you the option to choose the play style you want together with their core professions. The Virtuoso does not give you alternatives, it literally removes the core main mechanics remaning only remaining the phantasms as remove them for normal skills would have been an advantage... as phantasm are more countereable because you can not only interrupt the cast of the mesmer's skill itself, you can do it too with the phantasm's skill too and also kill the phantam in between  lol.  So is undestandable that they decided to keep phantasms...  If you add to our wonderful phantasms the new "Bladesong" skills with high cast times, high cooldowns and ranged... good luck. And that's without thinking about how to survive after failing your attacks with the marvelous defensive capabilities that the Virtuoso offers.

Those specializations and core professions you mention have more complex builds and play styles to play together. But...  What deep builds and different play styles can be played with the Virtuoso?  Your single mechanic is to stack blades and throw them, end of your deep specialization. It also lacks fundamental defensive capabilities and also supporting ones so  i can't watch other specialization as simple as the Virtuoso, if you remove its dps,  more than a Virtuoso is a Virtunada,  a virtuoso of nothing (nada), as it has nothing relevant to offer aside dps.

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[OriOri.8724]

On 10/16/2021 at 8:27 AM, Zoser.7245 said:

The Virtuoso has a key feature for that kind of players. It is a ranged dps with AoE cleave... so they can be safe in some far spot while others do the hard mele job. They also can kill easy mobs at range before receive a single hit. So scary players will play it a lot and love it. With luck, others will carry them.

Well that's what its supposed to be. But the spec as a whole doesn't really mesh with that archetype.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

First time, eh?  You've come up against the bane of every ideology and activist the world around: low information consumers (LIC). 

• Do you think that modern music is flat and repetitive?  Too bad, because the LIC will buy songs with simplistic beats by the dozens.
• Do you think that movies are full of plot holes and have bad morals in them?  Too bad, because the LIC will cheer at every emotional beat no matter how nonsensical they are.  
• Do you hate how YA books have been aping Harry Potter for the past 20 years?  Too bad, because the LIC loves reading the same story over and over again, just with different characters.
• Do you hate remakes?  Too bad, because the LIC will buy anything with the brand logo name on them.
• Do you hate the bizarre politics, practices, and donations that a company has?  Too bad, because the LIC believe company statements and corporate lines without question. 
• Do you hate the bizarre politics, practices, and grants that your government has?  Too bad, because the LIC makes political decision based on snappy slogans and who they heard first.

It doesn't matter how well reasoned or important the things you care about are.  When it comes to any cultural, social, or political issues, numbers matter.  The optimal choice is the one with the most people.  If you want something changed, you have to get enough people on board.  Otherwise, everything you want will be ignored out of convenience.  Granted, the forums are quite negative.  I've found many of the complains here to be greatly exaggerated.  But, never forget that there's going to be players who like the Virtuoso because it goes pew pew with glowing purple daggers, no matter what balance problems that it has.  

[Mik.3401]

I think this problem is a direct consequence of the game over investing in gemstore and underinvesting in the endgame.

casual players are being taught that focusing on shinies and doing kind of nothing is the goal of the game.

Of course they will defend virtuoso in such context because yes - it is pretty and shinny there is no denying that. They will never find it is basically a downstate spec because they just don’t play the content.

 

Meanwhile it is close to impossible to find a casual training raid group without a guild. So you either do high tier endgame content requiring 300+kp or just do open world pew pew.  The devs are to blame for this problem 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

I think this problem is a direct consequence of the game over investing in gemstore and underinvesting in the endgame.

casual players are being taught that focusing on shinies and doing kind of nothing is the goal of the game.

Of course they will defend virtuoso in such context because yes - it is pretty and shinny there is no denying that. They will never find it is basically a downstate spec because they just don’t play the content.

 

Meanwhile it is close to impossible to find a casual training raid group without a guild. So you either do high tier endgame content requiring 300+kp or just do open world pew pew.  The devs are to blame for this problem 

That doesn't make sense to blame the devs at all. They don't decide how the business works and they definitely don't determine what customers want. It's simply wrong to conclude that if users want something, the developers are to blame if they deliver those wants to the users. 

The reality is that this game was always leaning towards appealing to the casual crowd ... so appeal to the casual crowd it must always do, or otherwise risk losing the core of it's revenue generation. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

On 10/16/2021 at 11:54 AM, Lethion.8745 said:

 

Look at the comments. It's all Virtuoso. Did they launch a different Virtuoso in some servers because I am losing my mind here.

1. Virtuoso is a Mesmer that is weak and reddit hates Mesmer

2. Virtuoso is a less complicated (I don't know how clones are complicated but this is what people say) Mesmer and reddit hates complicated things.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Its quite simple really if gw2 thinks going more casual and simplistic is the way to go with class and specs they can follow the same route as WoW where they neutered the talent trees past WotLK and look how that did for them, only diff is WoW has a playerbase way larger then gw2 (dont know about now) as well as more complicated and harder raids and i do dare say better PvP options then gw2.

[Leonidrex.5649]

these people are a different breed, those are the people that like visuals on firebrand, where every other player knows that yes, its cool looking but it also covers entire kittening screen and is annoying to everyone and everything, and any time FB is viable in pvp its aoe kitten-fest where nobody cant see anything.
Hurr durr new utilities look cool! I wonder how long will it last after they do 50man dragonfall and their screen is permanently cover by this dog kitten purple thing covering half the screen.
And dont even get me started on "mechanics" If I wanted to have no cool mechanics I would have played necromancer and not a mesmer.

[GutterRat.1269]

I wonder at what point it was that, in parlance, casual came to equal lazy, unengaged, and unintelligent. This spec might not appeal to all the former, but the latter ought to lap it up.

[Levetty.1279]

Reading through the posts of people defending Virtuoso, its pretty clear that not a single one have any experience with Mesmer, I'm not even sure some of them have played Virtuoso itself.

Here is an example of the ridiculous claims I have seen proving this

• clones are complicated
• virtuoso doesn't have to rely on phantasms for shatters like core does
• Virtuoso is illusionless
• Its hard to get clones up
• You can only shatter with 3 clones out
• Virtuoso provides a new way to play mesmer because it just does ok
• Virtuoso doesn't have to appeal to mesmers who cares if that means they don't get a new elite spec this expansion
• OMG what about my minor gripe about this elite spec that I am going to spam in every Virtuoso topic

 

I can only hope that Anet sees through them and actually addresses the numerous issues the spec has.

[Lethion.8745]

8 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Reading through the posts of people defending Virtuoso, its pretty clear that not a single one have any experience with Mesmer, I'm not even sure some of them have played Virtuoso itself.

Here is an example of the ridiculous claims I have seen proving this

• clones are complicated
• virtuoso doesn't have to rely on phantasms for shatters like core does
• Virtuoso is illusionless
• Its hard to get clones up
• You can only shatter with 3 clones out
• Virtuoso provides a new way to play mesmer because it just does ok
• Virtuoso doesn't have to appeal to mesmers who cares if that means they don't get a new elite spec this expansion
• OMG what about my minor gripe about this elite spec that I am going to spam in every Virtuoso topic

 

I can only hope that Anet sees through them and actually addresses the numerous issues the spec has.

They keep saying that but I just don't understand what is complicated about clones? They are autopiloted. Heck, Ranger pets are more complicated than Mesmer clones.

[Obtena.7952]

The best part is that no one needs to defend it ... we aren't in court here and there isn't a jury to decide the fate.  Virtuoso is simply the concept and design Anet is going to create.  If you want to influence that design, I can assure you that pretending everyone that likes it has no idea what they are talking about isn't the way to do it. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Downstate.4697]

I dont have a deep understanding of mesmer and virtuoso needs some work, but I appreciated how it played. I hope it gets stronger since thats better for the mesmer mains who hated it and the filthy casuals who enjoyed it.

[AquaBR.9250]

On 10/16/2021 at 9:27 AM, Zoser.7245 said:

You can find a legion of casual players that will like it.  They only care about  kill some mobs by simply smashing their heads on the keyboard and don't care if they are downed every few seconds, can't solo hard content, etc.  People that will love it for it's visual animations, its look, that don't care of be competitive, manage their skills and don't have a clue of how to win a match, what stragegy means, how the score system works, etc. Waste some skills and get some laughs is the goal and it works for them. 

The Virtuoso has a key feature for that kind of players. It is a ranged dps with AoE cleave... so they can be safe in some far spot while others do the hard mele job. They also can kill easy mobs at range before receive a single hit. So scary players will play it a lot and love it. With luck, others will carry them.

Developers will love it too.  The single thing to balance is keeping its dps below a certain level and that's it.  There is no mechanics in that specialization that need to be balanced less, maybe, few cooldowns. 😆🤣

So yeah, they tested the same specialization and it's an easy going for the casuals. Competitive players and those who like to solo challenging content will play something else.

 

"Those damm casuals with their fun and their not stacking *spits in a can*"

[desu.2514]

the real issue is, listen to the rando's who find the local moa a challenge and they dissatisfy a large portion of the playerbase. instead of listen to players that actually understand things and fix it and then everybody happy. besides the ones who say oh yes its amazing its fine will be the ones to switch off it after a week when they realize there just dying all the time and its easier to let minions kill everything or go back to non virt and have clones take the agro of pve openworld mobs.

 

lets be blunt and honest. do you take advice from a person who says they find the topic you talking about is confising? or one who understands it and can give valid reasons why..

in the same light, you don't take advice about mesmer from people who don't understand mesmer and somehow find "clone" confusing. because simply put their opinion's past either enjoying or not enjoying it are completely invalid and useless. its good they enjoy it, and they should continue to be able to do so. but it by no means its ok or even acceptable to use that as a excuse to shaft an elite for all content outside of farming silverwastes...... leaving it with a majority of useless traits, underwhelming utilities, botched f4 and a new dagger that's kitten.

 

virt needs work, and a fair amount of it due to rookie mistakes that wouldn't happen if the dev's actually understand the game they make.

[Obtena.7952]

33 minutes ago, desu.2514 said:

the real issue is, listen to the rando's who find the local moa a challenge and they dissatisfy a large portion of the playerbase. instead of listen to players that actually understand things and fix it and then everybody happy. besides the ones who say oh yes its amazing its fine will be the ones to switch off it after a week when they realize there just dying all the time and its easier to let minions kill everything or go back to non virt and have clones take the agro of pve openworld mobs.

 

lets be blunt and honest. do you take advice from a person who says they find the topic you talking about is confising? or one who understands it and can give valid reasons why..

in the same light, you don't take advice about mesmer from people who don't understand mesmer and somehow find "clone" confusing. because simply put their opinion's past either enjoying or not enjoying it are completely invalid and useless. its good they enjoy it, and they should continue to be able to do so. but it by no means its ok or even acceptable to use that as a excuse to shaft an elite for all content outside of farming silverwastes...... leaving it with a majority of useless traits, underwhelming utilities, botched f4 and a new dagger that's kitten.

 

virt needs work, and a fair amount of it due to rookie mistakes that wouldn't happen if the dev's actually understand the game they make.

LOL. Yes, good strategy, insulting everyone that likes the spec, including Anet, just because you think you know better than they do about what they want the spec to be. I can already tell you how well that's going to work. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[desu.2514]

if u read it properly im not talking about what the spec wants or should be, im talking about making sure its viable when released in things other than the silverwastes. if u actually go look at the mechanincs/traits currently on it and say its actually be thought about and not just given 2 minutes of attention then said erm yea next then well your clearly missing the point. the only devs who put any sort of effort or thought into virt are the artist's because it is super pretty

[mortrialus.3062]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:54 AM, Lethion.8745 said:

 

Look at the comments. It's all Virtuoso. Did they launch a different Virtuoso in some servers because I am losing my mind here.

Like 95% are exclusively PvErs where everything is viable.

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, desu.2514 said:

if u read it properly im not talking about what the spec wants or should be, im talking about making sure its viable when released in things other than the silverwastes. if u actually go look at the mechanincs/traits currently on it and say its actually be thought about and not just given 2 minutes of attention then said erm yea next then well your clearly missing the point. the only devs who put any sort of effort or thought into virt are the artist's because it is super pretty

I'm not missing the point at all ... you have assumed things about how Anet develops classes that don't really matter at this point. I get you want to perpetuate the myth it's a '2 minute' spec because you think it's trash ... but that's not actually going to improve it. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Tseison.4659]

11 hours ago, desu.2514 said:

if u read it properly im not talking about what the spec wants or should be, im talking about making sure its viable when released in things other than the silverwastes. if u actually go look at the mechanincs/traits currently on it and say its actually be thought about and not just given 2 minutes of attention then said erm yea next then well your clearly missing the point. the only devs who put any sort of effort or thought into virt are the artist's because it is super pretty

Exactly. Don’t feed the troll though, they’re literally on every profession thread defending Anet because you know, they can do know wrong and “clearly know what they’re doing.”

As I posted in the Virtuoso feedback discussion, they did say in the livestream on Friday when they replied to my comment saying that they do read the feedback on the main forums AND have also read the ones in Virtuoso AND that there would be small changes. The “small changes” is obviously loosely used and can be towards any/all the previous elite specs shown and tested. But at the end of the day, Virtuoso needs more than just “small changes.”

Edited October 25, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[OriOri.8724]

On 10/23/2021 at 4:17 PM, FrownyClown.8402 said:

I dont have a deep understanding of mesmer and virtuoso needs some work, but I appreciated how it played. I hope it gets stronger since thats better for the mesmer mains who hated it and the filthy casuals who enjoyed it.

There are some big problems in virtuoso in regards to its own traitline and skills not having good synergy with itself. But outside that, it doesn't have good synergy with core memser right now. That will hopefully be addressed by Anet, including fixing some bugs with it.

 

But even if that synergy with core mesmer is increased, virtuoso still feels bad to play as a mesmer. And that's the key that a lot of non mesmer mains seem to be missing. The spec might seem fun to someone who doesn't play a mesmer, but to mesmer players it was incredibly jarring. The bladesongs are worse than shatters in every regard: we lost instant cast on them in exchange for incredibly long cast times; we lost the ability to target anyone with them (like players behind you); we lost the ability to do a shatter without any clones out (which core mesmer, chrono and mirage can all do); our shatters turned into projectiles that can be blocked or reflected now.

 

Even one of the "main" selling points of virtuoso, being able to keep blades while out of combat, is not as much of a good change as it seems on the surface. A mesmer can generate 2-3 clones incredibly quickly, so its not like being able to carry over a handful of blades between fights really changes anything. In the cast time of a bladesong, a core mesmer could already have 2-3 clones out and have cast a shatter anyhow, so this doesn't add anything to mesmer.

 

Your photo is a tempest icon, so to try and give you some idea of how the virtuoso felt to mesmer players, imagine if the new ele elite spec added a 1/2-3/4 sec cast time to changing attunements. The core ele mechanic would feel like absolute kitten to play with, and that's what virtuoso feels like.

 

 

[Xenesis.6389]

On 10/23/2021 at 6:45 AM, Levetty.1279 said:

I can only hope that Anet sees through them and actually addresses the numerous issues the spec has.

 

They didn't see through them when they cried and got mesmers nerfed over and over again throughout the years, why would they start now....

[SkinnyT.5382]

I think some of ya'll are blowing this way out of proportion. Virtuoso is different and some of you just don't want to admit that a lot of people may just like it. Is it perfect? No. But let's be honest here, neither is any of the other Mesmer specs. They all have fundamental issues.

[GutterRat.1269]

Virtuoso is fine. Since Mesmer is the only class I play, it saves me the cost of the expansion. Plus, I can't wait to farm them with my eyes closed.