The Virtuoso in comparison to the other Elite Specs (Discussion)

[Tseison.4659]

Hoping to compile everyone's thoughts on the Virtuoso in comparison to the other Elite Specs that have now been revealed. What they got and what we didn't get etc. Will comeback to edit with my thoughts after watching the stream and going over everything that has been revealed. 🔮

Three of the Virtuoso’ skills are essentially the same: Rain of Swords, Sword of Decimation and Thousand Cuts, which if you turned Rain of Swords horizontally, it would literally “become” Thousand Cuts. If I had to choose a utility skill to keep, I would probably pick Rain of Swords. Have it’s damage and duration increased and then the other two can be turned into something else. 

I’m only gonna slightly cover what other elite specs are getting in comparison to the Virtuoso.

Harbinger

Have access to Harbinger Shroud which obviously is a given that they would be given five extra skills since it’s a part of their mechanic, but that still is EXTRA skills that we could’ve easily gotten if perhaps Virtuoso could dual wield daggers and oh I don’t know, if our shatters did something else other than the same crap over every.single.elite spec.

They gain Elixirs which in my opinion is a little basic and was wondering why they didn’t give Harbingers the ability to actually throw them as well to inflict conditions or something. Regardless, it’s still access to a lot of boons, and ones that last longer than what the Virtuoso gets. Additionally, the Harbingers were given our old Signet of Inspiration effect, allowing their boons from elixirs to be given to nearby allies. So, how is that fair to completely change and nerf our Signet of Inspiration and give it to another profession? Yeah no, that doesn’t fly with us and I suggest giving them THE SAME treatment SoI was given and have Twisted Medicine extend boon durations.

 Willbender

Access to 6 gap closers…Blink and Psychic Force won’t be enough. We can burn through whatever combo with have, use distortion to give us some breathing room, but that still wont be enough.

 Catalyst

Have quite a bit of good traits that really help optimize their overall stats. The knockdown and propelling the player so far away would’ve been perfect on Psychic Force. Atleast that would help with keeping enemies away since they want the Virtuoso to excel at single target damage from a distance while kiting.

 Vindicator

10 utility skills that interchange. Now for the Virtuoso, someone who can manifest psionic weapons via telekinesis, we could’ve been given a variety of interchanging utility skills with different effects. Telekinesis/Psionics branch off to many things, but in this case, they could’ve drawn inspiration from Hela in the Thor movie. Have us manifest various of weapons, blade-like structures, the possibilities are literally endless when it comes to “Psionics.” As well as plenty of traits that help with recovering endurance, that would've looked great on the Mirage too, but you know, people complaining about Mirage Cloak...

 Bladesworn

Yes they can’t weapon swap to another weapon apart from the Gunsaber, but they still gain access to additional weapon skills alongside their pistol. Additionally, three of their utility skills have charges. If anet was giving out charges for free, then I’ll definitely take some for some of our utility skills *cough* Blink *cough*.

 Specter

Very unique wells in comparison to the Chronomancers. The whole elite spec and traits are looking great for overall support and with that said, I’m wondering when our wells will be able to be cast off the Chronomancer themselves, which helps prevent allies from missing/stepping out of the wells, additionally, adding more boons to our current wells and giving the chronomancer more support traits.

 Lastly, I’m combining both the Untamed and Mechanist only because the synergy and bolstering of their A.I pets. I’m sure they won’t last long in WvW but atleast they would last longer than our illusions/clones before they could even reach our target to shatter. Obviously the Virtuoso “fixes” that by turning them into blades, but as we’ve all agreed to and said already…there’s too much reflects/blocks that completely nullifies the projectiles of Bladesongs. The Untamed reminds me of the Soulbeast and seem like their traits will synergize well with other core traits and then when it comes to our Blades, there's still a hand full of Illusion/clone affecting traits that haven't been translated to the blades/bladesongs. The Mechanist, yes I will say it's unfortunate that almost their entire traits are focused on the Mech but then I wonder if our clones/illusions should've been condensed into one traitline as well?

 We’re not asking for MORE, but we’re definitely not asking to be given less than what everyone else is getting. Regardless if every other new elite spec needs tweaking/changes. Virtuoso and you can say the Mesmer as a whole, needs to be refined.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Virt is the laziest of the nine, it's basically replace clones with blades and ship it.
Every other elite spec got something new and a new way to play.

[Emtiarbi.3281]

The virtuoso is extremely basic, they didn't even update the Shatters to be more interesting. 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

1 hour ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Hoping to compile everyone's thoughts on the Virtuoso in comparison to the other Elite Specs that have now been revealed. What they got and what we didn't get etc. Will comeback to edit with my thoughts after watching the stream and going over everything that has been revealed. 🔮

Three of the Virtuoso’ skills are essentially the same: Rain of Swords, Sword of Decimation and Thousand Cuts, which if you turned Rain of Swords horizontally, it would literally “become” Thousand Cuts. If I had to choose a utility skill to keep, I would probably pick Rain of Swords. Have it’s damage and duration increased and then the other two can be turned into something else. 

The other elite specs coming out have some form of mobility/shadow step/dash etc.. and we did not get anything aside from a ‘simple’ knock back.

Every other elite spec coming out (I guess you can exclude the Willbender), get access to more skills either it be in the form of a new form, tool kit, shroud etc. and we’re stuck with the bland skills from dagger AND the same F1-F3 “shatters”.

 

didnt see your thread.

So my main thought is its a good thing they were first cause they need a lot more time to tweak things mechanically.

They can't just tweak numbers and call it a day. Virtuoso needs a large revamp of traitlines (which are fundamentally uninteresting/redundant with core) and the amount of projectiles (which destroy its viability in wvw)

Edited October 22, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Genesis.5169]

It's a bootleg thief without regenerating initiative instead our initiative needs to have a cd used which forces us to waste a skill to set up a decent shatter. And most our clone generation traits don't work with dagger generation. And it has all of the mesmer weaknesses w/o clone pressure or misdirection so its extra weak.

Anet was like lets make a not mesmer, mesmer but lets also make sure most your traits for your class don't work and all of the weakness you have as a mesmer you keep. This is legendary on how horrible it is.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Genesis.5169

[Lethion.8745]

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt is the laziest of the nine, it's basically replace clones with blades and ship it.
Every other elite spec got something new and a new way to play.

I think the laziest goes to Catalyst but Virtuoso is definetly the second. I am more excited about to Specter and might drop mesmer for it.

[Levetty.1279]

45 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

I think the laziest goes to Catalyst but Virtuoso is definetly the second. I am more excited about to Specter and might drop mesmer for it.

Whatever you think of the Catalyst F5 and the 3 skills on hammer its something new. Virtouso doesn't even have a mechanic. 

[Kondor.2904]

I especially love how mechanist's mech can essentially be a pocket mesmer considering how of a copypasta those new F skills are compared to shatters. 

[Downstate.4697]

4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt is the laziest of the nine, it's basically replace clones with blades and ship it.
Every other elite spec got something new and a new way to play.

Explain catalyst

[mungozen.2379]

I want to give the developers the benefit of the doubt. It appears that the most recent eSpecs had more iterations before these previews  

I think conceptually virtuoso is there, but the execution is not. I’d hope that the final beta will showcase updates to Virtuoso and Catalyst (among others) that will help deliver the vision the developers wanted. 
 

right now though, none of these eSpecs are looking interesting enough for me to step away from Chrono. 

[Infusion.7149]

Virtuoso probably won't be unusable (outside fractals which are condi-focused right now, as well as a few condi raids where you would run mirage). At the end of the day it brings 42K+ DPS in its current iteration with boon rip on sword autos at the very least as well as focus pulls. Unlike chrono the 10% crit chance is easy to attain , you just need fury ; ferocity comes from vitality so you could even run marauder with lower penalty in competitive modes if the projectile nature of bladesongs is addressed.

see Tipcat's mesmer sheet v2.0
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uXN-8fBdasAYcFKjgyBGuV8XUvqHk81YywbtJP78tsU

Once the novelty wears off and initial nerfs happen I don't think people will rave about Bladesworn (literal one trick pony ... if it's <45K DPS or <80K burst expect it to be unused), Untamed (pet spec with 5 target hammer), Mechanist (pet spec with toughness that is borderline troll if you are in toughness tanking raid for example), or Catalyst (needs so much work it's incredible , don't let the 45K condi bench fool you when it is 30-32K on small hitbox). Vindicator DPS is not up to par with Virtuoso at all and self boons (might/fury) are scarcer as far as uptime. Willbender doesn't shake any meta classes and feels under-tuned even in its intended environment (competitive modes) as it has no support aspects (and traps on DH give you higher burst). Harbinger is a glassier quickness variant of CQB at best if the 45K cDPS is nerfed. By far the most promising spec is specter because it gives healing a single target (a designated raid tank for example) a new prospect while providing some alacrity on wells and torment output on scepter.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Chrolo.8536]

The problem with Virtuoso is that it brings no novelty to the class. You can describe it with one sentence and everyone who knows mesmer understands everything it does.

 

The main theme is that it is a type of mesmer who has given up deception and uses brutality instead to attack head on with its psychic daggers.

 

And altough this was not what I personally hoped for I can get behind the idea when implemented well. But what it is now is just a dumbed down form of mesmer that may appeal to non-mesmers who didnt like the class before and will go back to their main after 5 minutes of testing anyway.

 

The iteration we saw in the first beta had absolutely bland traits which dont motivate any theorycrafting, a dagger who doesnt know what to be and does not support the "brutality", utilities that are as uninspired as the traits (you allready know that some of them will never be used) and shatters that are the same they have been for 9 years, just slightly altered. They were not even changed to support the design, for example by making the f2 not about confusion for once since the spec is about brutality - it just remained the same it was. Despite of the head on, brutality approach a whole condi trait line was implemented as if that was needed or wanted by anyone after mirage. Besides that, a condi dps could also be achieved through the core traits by themselves if someone really wants to go the condi route on this spec (but for that Sharpening Images would have to properly interact with virtuoso...)

 

Its not just the numbers that need fixing. Compared to something like the specter, mecha or most others it's hard to believe the same people made these.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Chrolo.8536

[Salt Mode.3780]

Bias towards Mesmers have been the case for several years now this isn't new. Ofc there will be people that says their class is actually the worse, but honestly the only other class that can say that is Ele, Warriors only got the D because of the big balance patch that nerfed all CC to do zero damage.

[Reteiel.7063]

What are the chances the rumours of mesmer rework are true and virt is just a placeholder spec? Everything including the weapon just seems uninspired and it doesn't really even do a good job of being a simpler spec since you have to deal with all the issues core mesmer has.

The lack of depth is what sticks out to me the most, at least from what we have seen so far. Without any room to experiment and adapt to different situations, pressing the same couple of buttons over and over again will get boring fast.

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

It is medicore.  The best thing about Virtuoso is that it looks to be low maintenance:  You get the blades, you shoot the blades, and then you're done.  It can do high damage from 1200 range, making it one of the few specs that can really dish out the punishment at a distance.  This at least makes it n00b friendly.

[Joxer.6024]

1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

  This at least makes it n00b friendly.

Perfect for me!  😉

[Levetty.1279]

7 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Explain catalyst

We already did.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

7 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Explain catalyst

Even catalyst has something new. 

F5

A two handed weapon (mesmer is the only profession on game without 5 new weapon skills on an elite spec, which shows how much bias is against it) 

The traits aren't as bland as Virt. 

The heal, utilities and elite are at least usable. The only skill usable on Virt is blade renewal. 

Plus it has the while close to sphere gimmicky. 

Does it suck, yeah, but the ideas are there, Virt is literally a trade clone for blade and everything is the same, there's nothing new here. 

[Tseison.4659]

5 hours ago, Reteiel.7063 said:

What are the chances the rumours of mesmer rework are true and virt is just a placeholder spec? Everything including the weapon just seems uninspired and it doesn't really even do a good job of being a simpler spec since you have to deal with all the issues core mesmer has.

The lack of depth is what sticks out to me the most, at least from what we have seen so far. Without any room to experiment and adapt to different situations, pressing the same couple of buttons over and over again will get boring fast.

 

To be honest, I really hope it’s true and we get them some time after the release of EoD. I think the only ideas I can think of in what they “could” do, is like what they did for the Mechanist and made an entire trait line focused on the Mech. They could shove all clone/illusion related traits into one trait line or even for the Mirage since that spec tends to be the one having clones active at all times. Or simply have Core Mesmer and Mirage be the only illusion/clone focused builds.

F1-F3 skills need to be changed into something NEW for each elite spec released. 
They could bring back hexes onto Core Mesmer.

For Chronomancers they could have wells (except for Gravity Well) go off at the Mesmers location and perhaps increase their radius. Additionally, have the traits more support focused.

Essentially, just have two trait lines be illusion/clone focused and make room for new ones that mostly affect the Mesmer and perhaps traits that change our weapon skills?

Edited October 23, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[Xaylin.1860]

Personally, I do like the idea of Blades (the resource, not the Explosive like affix), I got to agree, that aside from the very vibrant visuals, Virtuoso is probably the least fleshed out. It could be playable if the numbers are good enough but the design is horrible. I still think, they can make it work. I'm hoping for a hefty overhaul of traits. And it needs more synergy with baseline skills and effects. Not sure wether that will happen, though. 

 

Overall, I do feel that the first 3 specs - even the Harbinger, where I basically mainly liked the Shroud - are way worse than the later specs. I might also include the Catalyst with the first three, because the mechanic is lazy, too close to Tempest and it's probably mainly carried by stat bloat. Untamed and Mechanist might face pet related issues. But that's not directly related to the spec itself. My favorites at this point are probably Bladesworm and Specter.

 

Talking about Specter. With EoD Quickness seems to be a more easily accessable boon. Maybe not to the level of Might but certainly no rarity anymore. Okay, I guess. I'm also all for introducing theme/class specific features to other specs like they did for the Mechanist. In case of the Mesmer, this could mean that a Necro or Specter had ghostly Specters or Shadow Clones. But I'm a bit annoyed by the Specter. Alacrity like on-release Chrono? Gravity Well? Wells with build in mobility? Don't get me wrong... Specter looks great to me. But with the context of Chronomancer...  [Edit]  Oh. And that CD reduction trait on Untamed for CC... meanwhile... Chaotic Interruption. Haha.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Xaylin.1860

[Infusion.7149]

Yes blades are boring but if you're moving from trash mob to trash mob as the majority of the player-base plays it is a huge QoL improvement. Meanwhile it still pulls top tier DPS on golem so any bosses can be dealt with in similar fashion.

As an example look at misterred's Boneskinner / Deimos / Samarog / CA videos or tipcat's Vale Guardian video:

Spoiler

"Virtuoso seems to work very well on sama dps wise, it has a good burst."

 

In PVE at least I don't see major flaws with it considering how most of the userbase plays. You would probably not run it in T4 fractals but that is more due to the exposed change than anything else , the ability to burst things in lower tier or even in phased fights with pre-stocked blades is going to be a plus. The coefficients and the projectile nature of dagger and bladesongs in general however are quite poor in competitive modes.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Fueki.4753]

Thematically and visually, I still like Virtuoso more than the other eight.

From the first two beta batches, I still like how Virtuoso feels to play best (with Harmbinger being a close second).

I'd rather have Virtuoso remain as simple and neat as it is, than having it be stuffed full of mechanics just for the sake of it.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Obtena.7952]

Comparisons between classes or especs isn't relevant when the existence of a class or new espec introduction isn't about equivalent profession performance in the first place. 

[Xaylin.1860]

While making 1 to 1 comparisons is probably indeed pointless, there most certainly is a point in discussing the capability of classes performing a certain role. At least from a balance perspective. Still, I do believe there also is merit in discussing themes or archetype even though ones personal opinion might differ from ANets vision - if there is a consistent vision to begin with. Because that's probably the next argument coming up. At least that's what my magic ball tells me. 😜

 

 

[Chrolo.8536]

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Thematically and visually, I still like Virtuoso more than the other eight.

From the first two beta batches, I still like how Virtuoso feels to play best (with Harmbinger being a close second).

I'd rather have Virtuoso remain as simple and neat as it is, than having it be stuffed full of mechanics just for the sake of it.

 

For me it is not about overstuffing Virtuoso with new mechanics or changing the core gameplay flow. There are many little thing that could be done to the spec to give it at least some depth. It is also not about the numbers, which are obviously high enough to be taken into endgame. Thats not a problem for mesmer anyway.

 

But for a player who played Mesmer since 9 years this spec offers nothing new. Core Mesmer is a very selfish class and aside of Chrono a classical supportive playstyle was never possible. Of course you always have great utilities, but thats it and it does not really satisfy the feeling of being a support. There is a reason people wanted a "Bard".

 

They could have leaned into it a bit and dedicate at least one of the traitlines and one or two utilities towards support. Together with inspiration something interesting would have been possible. Virtuoso sings beautifully, but no one can hear it I guess...

 

Instead you have one traitline dedicated to a condi spec with interesting traits like "bleeds when a blade crits" (which is what Sharpening Images should do when Virtuoso is equipped), another exciting trait which gives Fury on F2 and a buff to Bleeding as a Grandmaster. This feels slapped on and just doing something more interesting with the line would leviate some of the concerns/negative feelings.

 

Moreover, for a class who wants to be simple and without AI, why is there this strange Blade-mechanic (Phantasm shoot a Blade on death) which is used in a Master and Grandmaster trait? Which again relies on Phantasms and their weaknesses? And so on...

 

I like the look/visuals of this spec and I think the Blades/Bladesongs could potentially be fun, but only if they seriously think and rework the rest of the whole kit.

 

A simple spec is not bad, thats not the issue. Its only an issue because it is simple and there is nothing new to test and think about. And a spec should be interesting for both veterans and newcomers to the class, at least to a certain degree.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Chrolo.8536