The breakbar GATE!

[Obtena.7952]

57 minutes ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

You hover over the bar and it tells you that the enemy will be vulnerable while defiance is broken and it also mentions defiance a second time.

Then you could /wiki defiance or https://www.google.com/search?q=guild+wars+2+defiance

Maybe you didn't go that far. You just noticed a blue bar that shows up sometimes when fighting stuff https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=guild wars 2 blue bar

or /m /s /d /p /l /s /g "what is that blue bar that sometimes shows up on enemies?"

It is true that a person who has no interest in learning or improve probably won't know anything but if you apply that same attitude to the rest of the game then how is anyone supposed to know anything about anything?

Sure, but that doesn't change my question ... how does a player understand this is something they need to do?  Again, pretend you are new, you complete some content with some people where this is a boss, has some 'blue bar' you might not even notice and then the boss dies because people 'do something' that's completely transparent to you and you win ...

Why would that person EVER suspect they need to learn or do something related to that blue bar? They just won! Like, mission over ... didn't ever REALIZE they should be doing something when this blue bar appears, if they noticed it at all. 

People are assuming WAY too much about how the average person interacts with this game. The path for people to learn this stuff is absolutely broken and then people wonder why at level 80, people can't break bars or even successfully get into endgame instanced content. Well, it's because the game absolute sucks kitten at teaching people the basic mechanics. People only learn mechanics eventually because they fail at something, instead of the game teaching them those mechanics to succeed. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Maikimaik.1974]

6 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

"Now"? This has been the case since 2012.

Here's the respective information, by the way: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

Also, don't forget that the upcoming expansion will finally have a decent tutorial area where things like CC get explained to newbies. Yes, I agree, this should have been in the core game on release.

It's also just kind of how MMORPGs work.

There's so much information in an MMORPG, it's pretty much impossible to explain everything through tooltips. The genre relies on wikis to provide a big chunk of information, because that's the only practical way to do it.

[Khisanth.2948]

11 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

I know as an experienced player we need hard CC, I know which skills are a lot or a little.

How did you come to this knowledge? Why can't new players be expected to do the same? Did you have to sacrifice an eye or hang around an ash tree for a while?

 

10 hours ago, ShadowCatz.8437 said:

There is a limit how any Devs can design UI elements that will teach players to actually learn how things work in this game when most players aren't interested to take any time to read or search for information themselves. Don't know how many times in map chat that there have been somebody asking about things that they could have found out on GW2 wiki and get surprised that there is a GW2 wiki that documents most things.

Ooooh how about integration with RGB lighting? 😛

Just imagine! Need CC? Your whole room turns purple.

 

8 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

This feature is already in the game. If you have any skills with crowd-control effects in your skillbar and an NPC, for example a boss, activates its breakbar, those skills flash. It is a pulsing effect, telling the player "use me next please." A veteran probably misses this visual effect easily. But especially a new player, who spends more time looking at their break-bar would definitely get it. 

Unfortunately combo fields trigger the same effect. I guess "press all the flashing buttons" might work but what does anyone learned from that experience? Also lag can cause your skill to pulse as well but in a different way.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

To be honest, you seem like you're much more easily confused than the general pop

Which general population? The one that needs to be told that electric appliances work best when they're plugged in, and that hot coffee is hot, or the ones that need to be told that Superman costume does not allow you to fly?

[Khisanth.2948]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The one that needs to be told that electric appliances work best when they're plugged in

With wireless charging being used for more things this one might start becoming confusing. 😛

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Which general population? The one that needs to be told that electric appliances work best when they're plugged in, and that hot coffee is hot, or the ones that need to be told that Superman costume does not allow you to fly?

Probably the general population that doesn't consist of these cherry picked individual legal cases where company just has to make sure they don't get sued for obvious things, because someone burning their tongue needs a scapegoat for their own mistakes and can potentially get some some money out of it (and adding another line of text is easier/faster for the company than fighting anything in court). Lets not pretend that "I don't know coffee can be hot!" is the norm. It's not the norm, it's a set legal precedence that others can try following for easy money. Hence now they """have to be told""" hot is hot.

That said, as much as googling "gw2 blue bar" is easy enough to learn about it, I think it should be part of the ingame tutorial, at least have it as a level pop-up on one of the higher levels.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[kanemi.4903]

Quote

Most new players playing say.. a Ranger with a Longbow will look at skills like Point Blank Shot and just think, oh this skill does more damage if enemies are close and pushes them away.. cool.
They won't get any indication that the skill is a CC or that they should use it on breakbars.
The biggest thing they will take from that is that the skill does more damage at close range.
Something as simple as making the knockback icon purple will make a new player think, "this skill is different from the others" and that is important to get them asking questions and learning what those differences are.

I didn't realize some of my skills were actually a CC until I Wiki --> Slay the octovine! (southgate)
and see the list of recommended skills to use for example.

So how should I assume it is? because its a pull? because its a knockback skill?
There's is no information even on the WIKI for example: 

Shield of Absorption
Sanctuary

Both of those skills break bar, the question may be which is a hard/soft ( I'm not even adding the signets)
but the question remain, not a single information about it.


 

Edited November 15, 2021 by kanemi.4903

[Infusion.7149]

40 minutes ago, kanemi.4903 said:

I didn't realize some of my skills were actually a CC until I Wiki --> Slay the octovine! (southgate)
and see the list of recommended skills to use for example.

So how should I assume it is? because its a pull? because its a knockback skill?
There's is no information even on the WIKI for example: 

Shield of Absorption
Sanctuary

Both of those skills break bar, the question may be which is a hard/soft ( I'm not even adding the signets)
but the question remain, not a single information about it.


 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar
Sanctuary = 150 per pass , up to 750
Shield of Absorption = 150 (knockback)

[kanemi.4903]

16 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar
Sanctuary = 150 per pass , up to 750
Shield of Absorption = 150 (knockback)

Wiki:

Shield of Absorption
Number of Targets: 5
Knockback Distance: 320
Shield Duration: 4 seconds
Radius: 300
Combo Field: Light
*Break Bar: 150* (I'm calling for the addition of this)

Problems solved.

Edited November 15, 2021 by kanemi.4903

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, kanemi.4903 said:

Wiki:

Shield of Absorption
Number of Targets: 5
Knockback Distance: 320
Shield Duration: 4 seconds
Radius: 300
Combo Field: Light

No break bar information.

What you're proposing is we put breakbar info on every CC skill?

[kanemi.4903]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

What you're proposing is we put breakbar info on every CC skill?

For sure!
I'm about to make a call for the addition on wiki as well.

Edited November 15, 2021 by kanemi.4903

[Obtena.7952]

15 hours ago, battledrone.8315 said:

that would tank the servers on a unprecedented level.

That doesn't seem true, considering the hundreds of float DPS values that we can see and ground effects going on. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, kanemi.4903 said:

For sure!
I'm about to make a call for the addition on wiki as well.

I posted a comment on the skill fact template page for a global skill fact change.
As it is not an ingame feature or exposed in the API, having to change anything if your suggestion is implemented requires either a manual addition of a note on every page or a global field (i.e. a place to put said value) for the skill facts.

For now most people are better off realizing that hard CC includes disables: knockback, daze, stun, pull, launch, float, etc. Other than launch which does an odd 232 or 332 most are fairly straightforward 100 breakbar damage per second (i.e. a 4s knockdown is 400 breakbar) and 150 for knockback/pull. There's outliers such as Sanctuary, Basilisk Venom (with allies), and Darkrazor's daring that trigger multiple times of course.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar

Some pages already have breakbar damage as a note:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Basilisk_Venom
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Head_Toss
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wild_Blow

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol'_Bomb
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot
 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[kanemi.4903]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I posted a comment on the skill fact template page for a global skill fact change.
As it is not an ingame feature or exposed in the API, having to change anything if your suggestion is implemented requires either a manual addition of a note on every page or a global field (i.e. a place to put said value) for the skill facts.

For now most people are better off realizing that hard CC includes disables: knockback, daze, stun, pull, launch, float, etc. Other than launch which does an odd 232 or 332 most are fairly straightforward 100 breakbar damage per second (i.e. a 4s knockdown is 400 breakbar) and 150 for knockback/pull. There's outliers such as Sanctuary, Basilisk Venom (with allies), and Darkrazor's daring that trigger multiple times of course.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_bar

Some pages already have breakbar damage as a note:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Basilisk_Venom
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Head_Toss
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wild_Blow

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol'_Bomb
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overcharged_Shot
 

I was about to make a comment, already create an account.
Thank you.

[Linken.6345]

Dident they try to do a update that made all cc skills have a purple description then quickly took it out since it broke something?

[Ashantara.8731]

4 hours ago, kanemi.4903 said:

There's is no information even on the WIKI for example: 

Shield of Absorption
Sanctuary

There actually is: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knockback (yes, Signets are missing)

Once a player has come to understand which mechanic is a hard CC and which is a soft CC (knockbacks are always "hard CC"), it's not that difficult to get the breakbar mechanic.

And I repeat: the upcoming expansion will (hopefully) solve the problem of no in-game tutorial on CC'ing, so the discussion might become obsolete at that point.

[Baddxian.3851]

20 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I thought it was common knowledge what skills to use for break bars.

 

Heh, I've been playing since release, and I just figured it out the other night.  "Hey, look, hitting him with my 'Stun' spell made the break bar go down. Neato!"

 

Granted, I mostly solo PvE, with an occasional world boss thrown in, but I never connected the cause/effect.  I could've used a tutorial on it, and I could probably use a tutorial on a lot of stuff...  

[ShadowCatz.8437]

7 hours ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

It's also just kind of how MMORPGs work.

There's so much information in an MMORPG, it's pretty much impossible to explain everything through tooltips. The genre relies on wikis to provide a big chunk of information, because that's the only practical way to do it.

It is also a problem when games have TOO MUCH information at once for new (and returning players), so it is more likely to be ignored if it is pushed on players too fast or make them feel that this isn't a game they want to spend time in as it will take too much time to learn how things work.

Then we have a very large group of people that doesn't want to read anything (neither a tooltip or a wiki) as they do it enough while they are at school or during eduction, at work or simply don't have time to read before they jump into things in a game.
 

Edited November 16, 2021 by ShadowCatz.8437

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Which general population? The one that needs to be told that electric appliances work best when they're plugged in, and that hot coffee is hot, or the ones that need to be told that Superman costume does not allow you to fly?

Yes.

[Vidit.7108]

9 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

How did you come to this knowledge? Why can't new players be expected to do the same? Did you have to sacrifice an eye or hang around an ash tree for a while?

Well in my case I was there then the modern break bar was made and saw as all my best CC skills were slowly nerfed over the last 6 or 7 years of updates. I never needed resources because when hard/soft CC was introduced nearly every skill that did it was enough.

But yes, have the new players build a time machine to circa 2014-2015 where by the time it became an issue they would already have been playing the game for several years.

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, kanemi.4903 said:

I was about to make a comment, already create an account.
Thank you.

Just a small update on that: The person responsible for the skill template stated that unless the game tooltip has defiance bar value (it doesn't), they would not add it to the template.

Therefore any defiance bar value is to be kept as a note unless Arenanet changes course on that.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I for one am glad that our munificent overlords, ANet, don't see the need to hold our hands on everything.

[Ashantara.8731]

4 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

I for one am glad that our munificent overlords, ANet, don't see the need to hold our hands on everything.

😄

While I agree on that sentiment, a tutorial for new players on the game's basic, yet most important mechanics is a good thing. It will spare everyone a lot of frustration.

[OGDeadHead.8326]

On 11/14/2021 at 9:00 PM, Tiilimon.6094 said:

Dunno, we used to play just fine when games didn't even come with manuals of any kind.

And when was that? Oh, you mean pirated games? Afaik, manuals for games were a thing even in the old C64 days...

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Yes of course they should show the breakbar damage of skills who do breakbar damage. Why are some people even questioning? And of course there should be a mandatory tutorial which explains the very basics of the game; and - By Ural's Hammer! - breakbar damage _is_ basics.

I can't understand that people are even defending this omission. Anyways, at least there is a heart in the new expansion which is explaining the breakbar mechanic.