"Fixed a bug that caused legend swapping to activate certain sigils that activate when swapping weapons."

[Clownmug.8357]

I don't really care about this change, but if they're going to call it a bug fix how about "fixing" other unique profession mechanics?  Maybe take a look at something like thief weapon skills being unaffected by chill and interrupts... How about that Karl Anet?

[Flying.6509]

On 2/28/2022 at 6:26 PM, Skyroar.2974 said:

The logic is that revenants weren't meant to have weapon swapping before HoT, and they then got it. This "bug" is a leftover design decision from beta days that Anet only decided to address now.

I mean, I know that. But this "bug fix" does not make sense because Eles have conjures AND atumements which all trigger swap sigils. Conjures were why Ele couln't swap weapons in combat, they count as weapons. Same goes for Engi and kits. And then we have FB who can triggers those sigils on weapon swap and with tomes. Then SB and Dudu and their class mechanics on top of their weapon swap. I'm gonna stop listening classes, this gonna get too long. If ANET did this to stop perma dodge Vindi exploiting Energy sigils, they could have just adressed Vindi. Not all Rev builds.

Edit: listing not listening classes

Edited March 1, 2022 by Flying.6509

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 hour ago, Justine.6351 said:

next up,

phase smash no longer triggers traps and marks.

this actually can happen, wow

[Justine.6351]

2 hours ago, Clownmug.8357 said:

I don't really care about this change, but if they're going to call it a bug fix how about "fixing" other unique profession mechanics?  Maybe take a look at something like thief weapon skills being unaffected by chill and interrupts... How about that Karl Anet?

Pretty sure thief weapon skills are affected by interrupts.

[The Boz.2038]

6 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

Pretty sure thief weapon skills are affected by interrupts.

They don't get cooldown on interrupt.

[Justine.6351]

34 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

They don't get cooldown on interrupt.

but they lose the initiative I presume.

[Flying.6509]

3 hours ago, Flying.6509 said:

I mean, I know that. But this "bug fix" does not make sense because Eles have conjures AND atumements which all trigger swap sigils. Conjures were why Ele couln't swap weapons in combat, they count as weapons. Same goes for Engi and kits. And then we have FB who can triggers those sigils on weapon swap and with tomes. Then SB and Dudu and their class mechanics on top of their weapon swap. I'm gonna stop listening classes, this gonna get too long. If ANET did this to stop perma dodge Vindi exploiting Energy sigils, they could have just adressed Vindi. Not all Rev builds.

Edit: listing not listening classes

So Devs ,either nerf everything or reverse this. You're not being consistent.

[Angesombre.4630]

As I said in a previous message the sigil has a 9s CD where is the problem? (I'm talking about the modification, if it was on different CDs I could have understood but it is the same timer ....)

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

This change's interaction with sigil of Energy single-handedly ruined vindicator for me. Already was feeling like most of the new elite specs were pretty lame and vindicator was the only silver lining. I ended up playing the entire expansion on renegade, a class I've already been playing for 5 years, thanks to this change, despite having the point to unlock vindicator straight away. 

 

 

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

Double post

 

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Vennyhedgie.5369
Double post

[The Boz.2038]

8 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

but they lose the initiative I presume.

So?
Rev loses energy *and* gets the cooldown slap. Thief can just immediately click the same button.

[Justine.6351]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

So?
Rev loses energy *and* gets the cooldown slap. Thief can just immediately click the same button.

That doesn't mean that they are not affected...

[Clownmug.8357]

3 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

That doesn't mean that they are not affected...

 

Sorry to derail this discussion, but to clarify I meant the interrupt cooldown.

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 2/28/2022 at 11:18 AM, Flying.6509 said:

So swapping attunements on ele triggers swap sigils, swapping kits on engi triggers swap sigils, going in and out of shroud on necro triggers swap sigils, but swapping legends on rev DOES NOT trigger swap sigils and it is a BUG. What's the logic here? Just.. why? 😕

Engineer and Elementalist can not weapon swap in combat so how else would they proc weapon swap sigils? Weapon swap sigils proc on anything that changes your 1-5 skills, Rev legend swap does not change your 1-5, it changes your 6-10 skills.

[Charybdis.3695]

It's understandable, as a rev you were able to gain the effect of all unique weapon swap sigils equipped across both weapon sets by swapping your legend then swapping weapons (while in combat). Though this trick isn't possible for engineers and elementalists, it is still available for classes such as necromancers and guardians.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Echo.6310

[Vennyhedgie.5369]

Pretty sure Death shroud and celestial avatar also trigger On weapon swap effects. Again, this seems like it was a change for balance reasons more than bug fixes. It goes against revenant gameplay. Revenants don't swap weapons as part of a "rotation" most of the time, but for the sake of utility.

[Buran.3796]

   The change affects the most to the hybrid/condition Herald builds used in WvW roaming, since they oftenly pair Invoke Torment + Diabolic Inferno with sigils of Hydromancy and Doom to support the condi pressure of mace & axe. Was a important tool since swapping to swords or sword + shield didn't provide much benefits in terms of condition damage and was dome mostly for defensive purposes. It doesn't affect PvE builds since most of them trend to camp in mace + axe and run Malice and Torment or Bursting for the constant buffs, and the Invoke Torment + sigil swap builds don't deliver the same amount of damage asthe later ones.

   In terms of damage the change doesn't affect those roaming builds (tested), and neither the changes inthe Tormenting runes, but in terms of opportunity is sub optimal: as have been said, sometimes you want to stay in a set of weapons, but since the cooldown of swapping legends (which provokes Invoke Torment) and the activation of the sigils is shared, and in roaming and duelling those builds want spikes of damage, so activating the sigils and the traits at the same time chosing carefuly the leged swap delivered a crucial burst of conditions.

   Now if you want the same effect you need to both swap legend and weapons, and that is less flexible. It doesn't affect too much PvP since those WvW builds are empowered by stat combinations that doesn't exist in PvP (trailblazer, celestial...), but anyway weakens builds which already were off meta. That is bad, due nerfing builds which already underperforn promotes the diminishing of variety and worsens the game.

 

   By the way I also tested the Tormenting runes: same damage but the regeneration delivers ~150-200 HP x tick depending on how much trailblazer or celestial you run. I think that now condi Renegade enhanced the advantage it had over condi Herald in OW PvE: previously Herald was more tanky and overally safe but slower at killing, and IMO Tormenting worked better with Herald due the main condis were torment and burns, whereas Renegade has a much wider access to a mix of  bleeds, torment and burns and therefore Nightmare runes were superior. Now, with the nerf in sustain from the  runes (+ the nerf in siphoning) the mele focused Herald becomes more exposed, whereas condi Renegade keeps the advantage in damage and has the extra safety of range. That's how I see it.

[Iniak.9815]

I don't see why this change was necessary.  This may have been a bug originally but has existed for years.  At what point does a bug become an established mechanic?

 

This was an interesting interaction and I'm sad to see it go.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Iniak.9815

[rial.9123]

Thanks anet for castrate even more the mechanics that make revenant unique. And of course, continue rewarding the mediocrity of spam grenades, bow's 2, perma aura reflects... Trash balance team. 🖕

[Strider.7849]

15 hours ago, Iniak.9815 said:

I don't see why this change was necessary.  This may have been a bug originally but has existed for years.  At what point does a bug become an established mechanic?

 

This was an interesting interaction and I'm sad to see it go.

It was because you could proc 4 sigils at the same time by legend swapping first, then weapon swapping. At a glance that doesn't seem like much, but when you consider every 9 seconds you're either dumping significant condi spread having constant offense + defense at the same time, it was making some builds (like hybrid revenant) overwhelming.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

8 minutes ago, Strider.7849 said:

It was because you could proc 4 sigils at the same time by legend swapping first, then weapon swapping. At a glance that doesn't seem like much, but when you consider every 9 seconds you're either dumping significant condi spread having constant offense + defense at the same time, it was making some builds (like hybrid revenant) overwhelming.

 

Yeah, I can understand the logic behind the change and looking past my personal bias, I do agree with it to a certain extent, but the biggest issue I have with the change is how they call it a bug after all these years. To take away something that Rev has had since its inception under the guise of it being a bug just doesn't sit well with me. The change was for sure a big nerf and it has made sigil selection much more boring (or fair? lol), but it was definitely extremely strong in WvW especially and when fighting something like a condi/hybrid Rev, it was very unfun to fight against. Feels surreal to even consider dropping hydro sigil now on pRev lol.

[Angesombre.4630]

Quote

It was because you could proc 4 sigils at the same time by legend swapping first, then weapon swapping. At a glance that doesn't seem like much, but when you consider every 9 seconds you're either dumping significant condi spread having constant offense + defense at the same time, it was making some builds (like hybrid revenant) overwhelming.

It is not possible to do it 4 times as you say there is a 9s CD on the change of sigils......
Because in your logic an elementalist would often cast it with the element change which is less than 9s and not to mention the engineer who can equip and remove a kit quickly......
A war like this one can reduce his weapon change in this case and it also works on a necro although he has the right to change weapon ..... And others that I didn't mention.
So this in no way justifies its removal, it's just a stupid nerf....

And above all a thing that many forget we take a legend we do not choose our skills

Edited March 4, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Strider.7849]

6 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

It is not possible to do it 4 times as you say there is a 9s CD on the change of sigils......
Because in your logic an elementalist would often cast it with the element change which is less than 9s and not to mention the engineer who can equip and remove a kit quickly......
A war like this one can reduce his weapon change in this case and it also works on a necro although he has the right to change weapon ..... And others that I didn't mention.
So this in no way justifies its removal, it's just a stupid nerf....

And above all a thing that many forget we take a legend we do not choose our skills

I don't think you understand because you haven't played hybrid or condi rev before. 

 

It worked like this:

1. Swap legends - this activates the sigils on your current weapon set. To illustrate this, let's say you have hammer with doom and geomancy in it. Those sigils go on cooldown for 9 seconds.

2. Immediately following that you weapon swap to your secondary set. Let's pretend that is staff with hydromancy and cleansing. They also go on cooldown for 9 seconds.

3. Repeat.

 

In effect you are now getting bleed/poison/chill (with corruption also torment)/3 conditions cleanse and other swap traits from corruption/invocation (such as burning/poison/slow/boon rip/damage/weakness/etc). 

 

This is not possible on elementalist or engineer because they can't equip 4 on swap sigils due to no weapon swapping in combat; in response to you questioning my logic.

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

When people don't understand how the game works ... they claim Anet doesn't have 'logic' to the changes they make. It's awesome to see sometimes. 

It is weird they call it a bug ... but it could have been an unintended effect on Revenant and they just never got to changing it. I mean, without understanding their timetable, you could argue almost every change is illogical because it's been in the game for a certain amount of time. That's just a fallacy. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[InsaneQR.7412]

There is only one way to compensate this: remove energy cost on wepaon skills.