New player experience is the games biggest detriment

[Redfeather.6401]

2 hours ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

There should be a middle ground. The veteran has a all sorts of mounts for free, a newbie would have a slower than raptor horse mount that can't jump for instance that would cost currency, currency that is hard to come by for new heroes .

Gw2 didn't start with mounts but they made the best ones out there and that's a fact.

 

I don't know why you are being downvoted. Giving new players a weaker version of something to see what it feels like and want more is a good thing. It's how to design stuff. Who are these people downvoting all the thoughtful comments.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Redfeather.6401

[Farohna.6247]

Oh another thread about how new players should have mounts.  

Some points could be agreed upon, like skill unlocks or off hand weapons.  However, sounds like this isn't the game for your friend, who prefers the solo content of LA.  They're very different games, some people just don't enjoy the same styles.  And if not having all the shinies right off is an issue, an MMORPG may not be the game for some players.  Most have a grind to give you a sense of accomplishment in an imaginary world.  

 

[Xerxez.7361]

19 minutes ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

I don't know why you are being downvoted. Giving new players a weaker version of something to see what it feels like and want more is a good thing. It's how to design stuff. Who are these people downvoting all the thoughtful comments.

 

You can give your friend a Raptor Mount as long as they have Path of Fire unlocked at any level. Just take them with you through your story instance for the first story of Path of Fire and they will unlock the mount.

[Ravenmoon.5318]

 

1 hour ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Oh another thread about how new players should have mounts.  

It's but one of the issues, but glad you see it that way. Good luck inviting friends over from other games though.

A game shouldn't require you to play it for 100 hours before it becomes fun. That's how games die. You can hear more about it at Josh strife Hayes YouTube channel

Edited April 24, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[Dante.1508]

Core tyria needs overhauls. The hero points need to give 5 points not 1. that would bring customers back to tyria. They need more events that bring newer customers into line with post 80s good exotic rewards even if they are basic skill sets. better loot drops for new customers dyes and gears not useless stuff they cannot use.

Boost gold values as well for new customers so at 80 they can afford and unlock at least two specs worth of gear.

Add rental mounts to all the core tyria maps and have all the mounts as rentals to give new customers incentives to buy the expacs.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Izzy.2951]

The core game experience is terrible in every single aspect. Its boring, confusing, lack of direction, doesnt prepare you for endgame (boons, dodges, combo fields, builds, squads etc...), the way they tell the story is bad in my opinion with those static "cinematic" talking. So yeah, you need to really dedicate lots of hours and money into Xpacs/LWS to enjoy the game and start seeing its beauty. And even after all of that you start seeing a lot of bad things in the game.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[Westenev.5289]

I remember starting the game in 2015 as a sword and board warrior. The experience made me almost quit the game, since I thought I was the reason my build sucked when in fact I should have played Warrior more like a viking or barbarian (Axes, maces and greatswords for the win). I then tried to play Mesmer as a magician (scepter/torch-staff, they both sucked) when I probably should have played it as a class with a cool laser sword.

 

I think a new player's first impressions of a class will dictate their success and engagement with the game, since many weapon/utilty choices are not made equal or even situational.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I wish the core maps were designed more like the later maps, in particular LS/HoT.  These maps are story-driven.  They feel like they have a purpose that directly relates to our character and our story.  By comparison, core maps seem to exist just to give us a place to level through.

For example, in Verdant Brink there's an event chain where we assist the Itzel hylek tribe.  We also do this in the story as well.  Why do we do this?  Because the Pact is scattered and lost in hostile territory and the entire focus of the map is on regrouping and mounting the counter-offensive that occurs during the night cycle.  It all ties together and creates both a purpose and a flow to each map.

Compare to core maps.  We're saving farms from bandits, escorting cattle, etc.  Why?  Because it's there, I guess?  Kryta has a bandit problem.  So what?  What does that have to do with me and why am I doing all of these random, unassociated tasks?

There are way too many core maps and nearly all of them feel aimless, pointless, bland, and boring.  Why do I care about any of this except as a vessel to gain experience and levels?  There are some world bosses and sometimes an interesting story thrown in here and there, but for the most part it's hearts and pointless one-off events just for the sake of not having traditional WoW-style fetch/kill quests.

[Hesione.9412]

16 hours ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

I've shared my experience with Lost Ark and with the same friend with Guild wars 2 and he kept on playing LA solo while I gave up on playing solo, being unable to hook any of my MMO buddies to Gw2 because the NPE is boring. It comes down to hearts and dynamic events (if you're lucky) 

Oh also low level dynamic events are trash, all the high level players that farm nearby one shot everything and you basically need to be lucky to even hit something before it evaporates. They could play with scaling, both of downlevel scale and spawn rate scaling. 

I agree that the higher level players one-shotting everything is off-putting, as are the AFK farmers in core Tyria who are interfering with people doing quests. 

[HowlKamui.5120]

Agreed. GW2 has one of the worst new player experience for people who wish to do group pve, meanwhile it has the best new player experience for people who want to do pvp.

I don’t see how they can fix the new player experience for the pve side of things though since core tyria is super outdated design-wise, and the first taste of group content new players getis dungeons content and no virtually no one does that anymore. 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by HowlKamui.5120

[Hotride.2187]

Actually gw2 was my best new player experience in an online game. Its after learning the game and becoming a veteran that I find the game to be lacking.

But just leveling up, going through areas and doing hearts and exploration? That was a ton of fun. I still do world exploration for the variety of things you do.

My partner doesnt play games much so she was reluctant to start gw2, thinking it will be a demanding game and things would go badly. But she actually liked it a lot, in fact I think I'm ruining her fun when I'm always around to 2 shot things and pick where to go.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[kettering.6823]

9 hours ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

 

A game shouldn't require you to play it for 100 hours before it becomes fun. That's how games die. You can hear more about it at Josh strife Hayes YouTube channel

Yet Final Fantasy 14 remains one of the most popular MMOs out there... (don't shoot me, I play it too)

That being said, having just tried to get a couple friends into the game and them both bouncing off due to the NPE, I have to agree that it needs some looking at. Luckily for all of us, ArenaNet is doing just that right at this moment! They're currently doing testing for some new players for modifications to the NPE. It's on their radar and being actively worked on, as was mentioned in the latest studio update. Huzzah.

Edited April 25, 2022 by kettering.6823

[Danikat.8537]

14 hours ago, Naxos.2503 said:

I feel like that feeling is trumped in some way. Obviously for anyone who already -has- a level 80 char with most skills and traits unlocked, restarting feels like a slog. I agree on that standpoint.

What's key here, is that new players dont start with a level 80 char with most skills and traits unlocked, unless they boost.
Hence the new player argument falls short.

To a new player, while getting up the steps might feel slow, and that is a point worth debating, they are also unlocking and discovering their characters along with discovering the game, a feeling that from what I saw and been told, many enjoy. Doing it a second time immediately after is definitely not as enjoyable and that very much makes sense.

I was thinking about this yesterday. I made a character who was technically a key runner but as I usually do I levelled them up by playing rather than using tomes, not using mounts. I was thinking about this thread and the fact that even then what I was doing was not the equivalent of being a new player. It took me an hour to get to level 10, but if I was new after an hour I'd probably still be in Astoria doing the first few hearts because I'd want to talk to all the NPCs (including before, during and after events and hearts to see if the dialogue changes), look at the scenery, check out all the merchants etc.

I was never worried about exactly how long it would take me to get to level 80 because I didn't feel any need to do it quickly. As far as I was concerned the game started as soon as I got out the character creator. The open-world PvE content is what interests me most (and I love that this game actually puts it on an equal footing with other modes instead of treating it as something to be endured and then forgotten as quickly as possible). To me the fact that new players have to spend time playing open world PvE is not a problem to be fixed, it's just...playing the game. Losing that would be a real shame for me.

I know that's not how everyone likes to play, but maybe rather than changing what's already there Anet could add an alternative, like a dungeon that starts at level 10.

 

13 hours ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

There should be a middle ground. The veteran has a all sorts of mounts for free, a newbie would have a slower than raptor horse mount that can't jump for instance that would cost currency, currency that is hard to come by for new heroes .

Gw2 didn't start with mounts but they made the best ones out there and that's a fact.

 

This never makes sense to me. If the premise is that new players don't like seeing other people rushing around on mounts and using their special abilities then how will giving them a slow mount with no special abilities help? They still wouldn't be able to keep up with the people rushing past on their raptor. To me it just sounds like an insulting "compensation prize".

Also as someone else pointed out you're always going to see other people having and doing things you can't when you first start a game, unless you start on day 1 and are one of the people who rushes through it. People are forever saying GW2 doesn't have any good rewards, and giving everything you can unlock to new players right away is only going to make that worse.

 

4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I wish the core maps were designed more like the later maps, in particular LS/HoT.  These maps are story-driven.  They feel like they have a purpose that directly relates to our character and our story.  By comparison, core maps seem to exist just to give us a place to level through.

For example, in Verdant Brink there's an event chain where we assist the Itzel hylek tribe.  We also do this in the story as well.  Why do we do this?  Because the Pact is scattered and lost in hostile territory and the entire focus of the map is on regrouping and mounting the counter-offensive that occurs during the night cycle.  It all ties together and creates both a purpose and a flow to each map.

Compare to core maps.  We're saving farms from bandits, escorting cattle, etc.  Why?  Because it's there, I guess?  Kryta has a bandit problem.  So what?  What does that have to do with me and why am I doing all of these random, unassociated tasks?

There are way too many core maps and nearly all of them feel aimless, pointless, bland, and boring.  Why do I care about any of this except as a vessel to gain experience and levels?  There are some world bosses and sometimes an interesting story thrown in here and there, but for the most part it's hearts and pointless one-off events just for the sake of not having traditional WoW-style fetch/kill quests.

But that does tie into the story. All 3 human personal stories start with you dealing with bandits and finding out more about the people behind them and why they've gotten to be such a problem. It's the same with the other races and their enemy factions. Those early hearts and events help set the scene for the story and let you know this is a bigger issue than just your friends getting into a scrap with some random city gang.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Danikat.8537

[Izzy.2951]

The real question is, are the changes from arenanet gonna be enough to have a good new player experience? I doubt it. Core game is a mess, it hasnt got a proper tutorial (like EoD have), story is badly told, Zaithan fight is everything but epic.

Also they should look at improving LFG and some systems before launching in Steam.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Izzy.2951

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I was thinking about this yesterday. I made a character who was technically a key runner but as I usually do I levelled them up by playing rather than using tomes, not using mounts. I was thinking about this thread and the fact that even then what I was doing was not the equivalent of being a new player. It took me an hour to get to level 10, but if I was new after an hour I'd probably still be in Astoria doing the first few hearts because I'd want to talk to all the NPCs (including before, during and after events and hearts to see if the dialogue changes), look at the scenery, check out all the merchants etc.

I was never worried about exactly how long it would take me to get to level 80 because I didn't feel any need to do it quickly. As far as I was concerned the game started as soon as I got out the character creator. The open-world PvE content is what interests me most (and I love that this game actually puts it on an equal footing with other modes instead of treating it as something to be endured and then forgotten as quickly as possible). To me the fact that new players have to spend time playing open world PvE is not a problem to be fixed, it's just...playing the game. Losing that would be a real shame for me.

I know that's not how everyone likes to play, but maybe rather than changing what's already there Anet could add an alternative, like a dungeon that starts at level 10.

 

This never makes sense to me. If the premise is that new players don't like seeing other people rushing around on mounts and using their special abilities then how will giving them a slow mount with no special abilities help? They still wouldn't be able to keep up with the people rushing past on their raptor. To me it just sounds like an insulting "compensation prize".

Also as someone else pointed out you're always going to see other people having and doing things you can't when you first start a game, unless you start on day 1 and are one of the people who rushes through it. People are forever saying GW2 doesn't have any good rewards, and giving everything you can unlock to new players right away is only going to make that worse.

 

But that does tie into the story. All 3 human personal stories start with you dealing with bandits and finding out more about the people behind them and why they've gotten to be such a problem. It's the same with the other races and their enemy factions. Those early hearts and events help set the scene for the story and let you know this is a bigger issue than just your friends getting into a scrap with some random city gang.

It feels like comparing water to whiskey.  Like I said, I wish the core maps were more like HoT/LS in terms of their story integration, sense of direction, and event structure.  Core feels bland, boring, and disconnected from me as a player.  It's just there to level through.

[Ravenmoon.5318]

4 hours ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

Agreed. GW2 has one of the worst new player experience for people who wish to do group pve, meanwhile it has the best new player experience for people who want to do pvp.

Yeah the PvP aspect is cool, always has been even with the weird balancing. It's one of the games that allows you to simply just hop into and have at it. My problem is solely with the PvE experience, especially group one.

 

As for group content, it's fine as I can solo some of the encounters, used to run arah solo back in the day so I can pull my weight. But asking my boys to level to 30 while having most of their hero mechanics locked away behind hearts and exploration is kind of off-putting. 

 

I agree the design of core Tyria is old. It's an old game. It is what is it is. But we have fractals and I don't see why a lower level hero shouldn't be able to play fractals. WoW is old too but they keep it fresh with each expansion. 

[Ravenmoon.5318]

3 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

This never makes sense to me. If the premise is that new players don't like seeing other people rushing around on mounts and using their special abilities then how will giving them a slow mount with no special abilities help? They still wouldn't be able to keep up with the people rushing past on their raptor. To me it just sounds like an insulting "compensation prize".

The problem is, and it shines the most in older games, is that there's no "catch-up mechanic" and at some point you fall in a little bit of despair like ... "I'll need ages to reach this guy, rather play that piece of kitten New World, at least I have an even start with everyone". It's a conscious decision. New player definitely need catch-up mechanic. ANet devs figured that as well otherwise there wouldn't be a lvl 80 boost. I just think the boost itself is a band-aid.

Even EVE Online has catch-up mechanics. I'm not saying to throw legendaries at new players btw, or full mount experience. But just give them a taste of what's to come. The systems are solid.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[DeanBB.4268]

22 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Someone who enjoys grinding mobs prefers a game which has you grinding mobs over a game which discourages it. What a surprise.

Which is funny because one of the TERRIBLE!!! NPE changes is to halve the exp requirement for lv1-15. Do people want leveling to be slower? 😂

Also it is more like lv3-15 because you will be lv2 as soon as you exit the first instance and then level 3 after you walking by a PoI or some other map objective.

I did just create a new free to play account last week. I finished the starter instance and was leveled to 4 before moving on to explore the map, so Anet has definitely tweaked the XP gain. I'm good with that.

I have multiple accounts, most of which are core-only. I've leveled over 100 toons to 80, though on my main those are now insta-80 with the tomes etc. I have no objections to the NPE. I do get impatient at times wishing the next specialization would open up, but it all happens so fast as-is that it really is no issue to me. And I still get a sense of satisfaction when I hit level 80 and get to gear them up for their "final" build, and apply some sweet looks.

I wonder if those who object are just more into their ideal game, probably the one that hooked them in the first place. Thus all the "I wish" posts -- I wish GW had this thing from WoW, I wish dungeons were like FF14, etc. GW2ers are guilty as well. "I wish GW2 was more like GW1."

[Ravenmoon.5318]

57 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

I wonder if those who object are just more into their ideal game, probably the one that hooked them in the first place. Thus all the "I wish" posts -- I wish GW had this thing from WoW, I wish dungeons were like FF14, etc. GW2ers are guilty as well. "I wish GW2 was more like GW1."

Like I said in some of the posts, I play since headstart and I much prefer the original experience but even it would've been outdated by now. I hop a lot through MMOs and honestly, the startup in Gw2 is one of the worst. On par with FFXIV's start up. But at least the FFXIV's community admits their NPE is trash.

Steam launch, with the NPE as it is would turn Gw2 into the MMO with the fastest lost player-base. Okay, maybe the second MMO that did that. I forgot NWO is a steam game, lul.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318

[Khisanth.2948]

27 minutes ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

I did just create a new free to play account last week. I finished the starter instance and was leveled to 4 before moving on to explore the map, so Anet has definitely tweaked the XP gain. I'm good with that.

Right now things are slightly confusing in terms of that because they are currently running a A/B test with some accounts randomly getting 2x exp. Not sure if that only applies to new accounts.

I am always wary of people who write for their friends. What are the friends' preferences? How well does the author know their friends' preferences? Why should GW2 be changed to match those friends' preferences?

The complaint about high level characters is also a bit suspect. That problem exist but mainly on days when there is the event daily. The only time any of OP's friends tried the game was when that was the daily?

1 hour ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

I wonder if those who object are just more into their ideal game, probably the one that hooked them in the first place. Thus all the "I wish" posts -- I wish GW had this thing from WoW, I wish dungeons were like FF14, etc. GW2ers are guilty as well. "I wish GW2 was more like GW1."

I am sure we all have things we don't like and want to see changed about the game.

Most of us just don't try to assert that the game should be catering to our (friends') preferences. 🙂

Those types of posts often comes across as if the other game is some super amazing game that did everything right but for some reason the author is not playing despite it doing all those right things.

I for one am glad GW2's early game doesn't feature janky looking stunlock based game play that Lost Ark has.

[deadsyeren.9583]

I can agree, I am a returning player and even for me everything is overwhelming. There are definitely some QOL changes they could make to make leveling more fun and maybe incentives to keep story dungeons going.

And although I love the game... I feel like they could try to lean a little less on the shop and try putting more stuff to earn in the game.

AND A BARBER. There is honestly no reason to have to pay all the time to change up the appearance a little bit, this is probably one of the few MMOs I know of that tries charging for it even for very basic changes. 

That being said, I am still enjoying it, but it could be so so so much better!

[DeanBB.4268]

38 minutes ago, deadsyeren.9583 said:

And although I love the game... I feel like they could try to lean a little less on the shop and try putting more stuff to earn in the game.

Just looking at head gear, there are 78 gemstore pieces (I have 25 unlocked). There are 158 earnable in-game (I have 79 unlocked).  So there is plenty to choose from in-game. I included my numbers just so you know what a "filthy casual" can acquire easy enough.

I found those numbers via gw2efficiency.com. I highly recommend it for any GW2 enthusiast.

[Ashen.2907]

20 hours ago, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

A game shouldn't require you to play it for 100 hours before it becomes fun. That's how games die. You can hear more about it at Josh strife Hayes YouTube channel

Luckily the game doesnt require 100 hours of play before it becomes fun.

I am a subscriber to JSH's channel because I enjoy his approach to content delivery, but even as a fan I feel comfortable saying that I think he is wrong as often as he is right.

[disco.9302]

On 4/24/2022 at 1:30 PM, Ravenmoon.5318 said:

It's a personal opinion over many years. Every time I've hyped a buddy (that plays MMOs) they stop playing after an hour or two. The game is super boring after the "new player experience revamp" they made before HOT if I remember correctly. 

 

Of course if you purchase an expack and boost yourself to the good stuff it's better, however, nobody drops money on something that has a trial and that trial isn't fun. 

 

The abilities are boring until lvl 30 and even after that you basically just swing a sword until 80. 

 

I've been with the game since it's headstart, I know what's good about it but there's no chance of doing group content with someone that isn't level 80. Dungeons? Nope. Fractals? Lol nope 😂 . Raids? Nice joke. 

 

Compare this experience with Lost Ark where you can start running dungeons and group content since level 10 with your character kicking kitten all the way through. The game itself (lost ark) is rng kitten but boy is the onboarding experience is awesome until you hit the rng wall 

Another post about inaccessibility for newbies. How considerate of you to create a new thread ignoring the many other identical threads and also offer absolutely no constructive comments other than compare the game to another entirely different title. Mission accomplished.

[Ravenmoon.5318]

41 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

Another post about inaccessibility for newbies. How considerate of you to create a new thread ignoring the many other identical threads and also offer absolutely no constructive comments other than compare the game to another entirely different title. Mission accomplished.

It's not for me to tell the developers how to develop their game. Much on the contrary of what you guys have come to expect. It is okay to point out that something isn't right. Just the same way I can point to a faulty rocket and say - Hey, this rocket isn't flying straight. See, I don't have to be a rocket engineer to point the obvious, but it's outside of my comfort zone to come up with solutions. 

Also I actually searched for such posts but I suppose they got burried. 

But ultimately, if you don't have anything constructive to say, why don't you try what you're selling? 

About the guy talking about my friend's preferences, as I said I MMO hop a lot. I have friends across the whole genre - wow players, ffxiv players, lineage 2 players, lost ark players, BDO players - none of them likes the first few hours of Gw2. Have you tried BDO? This game has maddeningly good start. It gets tedious at the end, but the start, the thing that hooks you, is amazing. Eve Online is constantly revamping it's starting tutorial. They recently introduced EVE Academy as well. And you sit here telling me that Gw2's NPE is all fine and dandy? Yeah, hard disagree on that one buddy. MMOs evolve. Get on with the times or get forgotten like Everquest. It's still running, but nobody gives a kitten

Edited April 25, 2022 by Ravenmoon.5318