Why Everyone's Mad About This Patch In Particular: It's Not The Balance

[Ragnar.4257]

Every balance patch attracts complaints. That's unavoiadable. It's important to recognise that this time it's not just more of the same, it's different. I have never, in 10 years here since launch, seen the community so depressed and gloomy.

So why is this patch in particular generating such despair? It's not the actual content itself of the patch, on paper its fairly inoffensive and mild. The problem is the message that this patch gives of what the direction is going to be for the game going forward for the foreseeable future.

Over the last 2 years, first with Covid and then with the development of EoD, the community has been fairly understanding of the fact that balance patches and updates would be smaller and infrequent. Yes there's a whole host of issues that have gone unaddressed for 2+ years, but there was supposed to be light at the end of the tunnel. With EoD done, life mostly returning to normal after Covid, and by ANets own words (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/arenanet-studio-update-the-future-of-guild-wars-2/) through their communications in March/April/May, we were really hoping to see a fundamental gear-shift in the patches/updates. We were supposed to be moving away from the dark-days in the year up to EoD where all we saw was the occasional +2% damage to X and -3% healing to Y, and moving to actually getting stuff done with regards all the super-underperforming and under-used weapons/traits/specs/skills. And we were supposed to be seeing some serious attention paid to the classes/specs that have been non-meta for so long that people have forgotten they exist.

To illustrate this, a problem the community were hoping to see addressed was NOT that Core-Guard is 2% more effective at support than Tempest in PvP. That was NOT the problem. The PROBLEM was that nobody has even considered playing Druid as a support in the last 7 years. The problem is that nobody (above Gold) has even considered equipping a staff on their Tempest in the last 7 years.

Another easy case to see is the 300s traits that surely, surely, must be a top priority to fix.

The fact that Meta-Build-A is 1% more effective than Meta-Build-B is not the problem. The problem is that Build-C has been grief-tier for the best part of a decade. What this patch signals in big flashing letters is; "No, we are not going to go and fix up Build-C. We're going to go back to business-as-usual as it was before EoD, and continue to just make minor tweaks to Meta-Build-A and Meta-Build-B, because those are what 90% of the playerbase are playing, to make it look like something is happening".

This is what was communicated in the March 22 Studio Update:

Profession Updates
Balance and maintenance of Guild Wars 2‘s extensive combat system, including the latest elite specializations released with End of Dragons, is important for keeping gameplay engaging and varied across PvE, WvW, and PvP. Moving forward, we’ll be making professions and elite specialization updates a higher priority.

Our plan includes quarterly profession updates, with smaller releases in between as we monitor and respond to how the meta in each game mode takes shape. In addition to the number tweaks that you’re used to seeing, the team will be revisiting some underpowered and underused weapon skills, traits, or utilities for each profession in each profession update to help expand your arsenal. We will continue to make game-mode-specific balance adjustments as needed.

We’ll be releasing some PvP and WvW balance changes in the March 29 update, and our first major profession update will drop on June 28.

This is what we'd all been hoping to see. The fact that Willbender is 2% more effective than Herald isn't the problem. The problem is that NEITHER spec has considered using a Hammer in years. And yet, this update, the only actual meaningful changes to underused weapons/specs/traits/utils appears to be the tweaks to Engi Rifle. And they don't even appear to be very extensive, just adjusting the range values. The previewed patch notes is very long, with lots of lines of writing, but 99% of it is all just fluff. It's all +2% damage here, -2% healing there. This isn't going to do anything to address all the severly under-used weapons/skills/traits, because most of them or not just numerically broken but mechanically broken.

The community had been waiting to see if pain-points which they have been patiently waiting for years to be addressed, while they had patiently waited through the understandable disruptions of Covid and EoD, would finally now start to be picked up. And the message now appears to be that no, the game will continue to be balanced and updated in the exact same way as it was for the last 2+ years. That's why this particular patch is drawing such disappointment. Please, please, please, understand that it is not just a load of man-children being salty about Build-X being 1% more effective than Build-Y. This is the community discovering that what they thought was the light at the end of the tunnel, is just another tunnel.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Gibson.4036]

Amplified by a glimpse into apparent arrogance.

[Endaris.1452]

Well yeah.

When talking about underused weapons and utils, as an engineer I'm immediately thinking:

Pistol AA!

Turrets!

The rifle changes were nice but it was far from an underused weapon (which might be owed to the abysmal weapon selection on engi).

 

I think besides not holding to that promise is that the other changes feel very uninspired and lack both direction and consideration.

E.g. core Mesmer now loses Fury in solo play because its only trait for fury generation got its duration halved and is now a support trait for whatever reason.

Generally speaking a lot of Fury source were added to the game even though Fury was more or less the last problem for most comps because it was already one of the most prevalent boons to give out to others.

Meanwhile Guard still holds onto its quasi-monopoly for Stability.

Overall a lot of the changes feel like they are very strongly catered towards PvE squad play aka raids and strikes and they completely ignore that these changes often make the classes worse or less diverse in every other context. E.g. Draconic Echo was already a great trait that was likely already the most used option in the trait line. Now it is even stronger. Why still take other traits? And as compensation, facet consumes were nerfed. This is just too one-sided and narrow-minded. When trying to transform an e-spec into a new role, taking a more holistic approach than this is super important, otherwise you will just keep creating new problems.

[Dadnir.5038]

I think it's a bit more than that, thought.

A very large part of the vocal community of this subforum is dedicated to sPvP and this vocal community is tired of the uniformity of their gamemode. It's been a while since their was a shake to the meta professions there and the patch do not deliver any promise of change.

You sure can point out the minor things that have been begging to be fixed for years already, like elementalist's staff, revenant and guardian's hammer, the 300s CD traits, the "procs traits", hard CCs... etc. (Yes the list is very long). But the true main point of rage is that the competitive mode color won't change one bit after this patch.

[Hotride.2187]

56 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Please, please, please, understand that it is not just a load of man-children being salty about Build-X being 1% more effective than Build-Y. This is the community discovering that what they thought was the light at the end of the tunnel, is just another tunnel.

I mean if that is how you view your playerbase... The ship must have sailed already.

Otherwise really well put. Matches my view perfectly (aside from that last part, I really hope that is not how they see players).

[Galisaa.8304]

4 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

I mean, the current Harb/WB/Spectre meta has been in place for..... 3 months? We've had static metas before that lasted way longer than 3 months.

Complaints that Class-X is 5% better than Class-Y happen literally every patch, and happen in every patch in every game, not just GW2.

Complaints about balance are baseline that is always there. I am explaining here what is extra/different about this one.

.... I've been browsing forum and reddit gw2 all weekend. I have seen zero X > Y posts. Majority are from Class A main saying Class A changes make no sense.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Like i don't know, i was hoping they would try fix Mirage and give it's 2nd dodge back.

There isn't much complaint cos the balance is catered for PVE community as Mirage has 2 dodges there and if Anet had given 1 dodge to PVE, alot of ppl would have been upset.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Sleepwalker.1398
2nd dodge for PvP n WvW

[Sporks.4395]

The biggest complaint is that blue skill builds are just better still. You can get your utility and your damage. Every other class has to chose if they want damage or utility. They have to chose if they want healing or utility. It's almost a question as to why is most of the classes are balanced on the need to chose between x or y, while a small part of the class balance just gives it to you for free. Why would anyone play most of the builds? Removing things like spotter and AP just eliminates rangers and revs entirely. Every class can give tons of fury, spotter is gone. Why take a ranger? Every other class does fury better with better damage. There is no need for a ranger now. just run a better class. 

I like the idea to make every class fluid and useful, but the design of most of these classes fails to compare with blue skills. These classes need to be fixed. Why does warrior have so many traits that are 100% unusable. Ranger has so many traits that are just bad. This is like putting the cart in front of the horse. Fix the way the classes work before you eliminate one of the only reasons other classes would want them.  

This is why the balance patch is so disappointing. Most of the changes I'm ok with. There are a few that are just... why.. but the core issue of this game and the difference between classes still exists. A few builds are just to good. Either make every build overpowered, or make those few classes that are OP have to take tradeoffs in order to get the utility. The benchmark reaction is a failure for balance. 

[Dadnir.5038]

8 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

I mean, the current Harb/WB/Spectre meta has been in place for..... 3 months? We've had static metas before that lasted way longer than 3 months.

Sure, it's been 3 month for this meta, but the previous meta was already heavy on necromancer and guardian while thief is like fish in water in competitive mode whatever the meta.

Fact is that Scourge's design have had an heavy impact on both sPvP and WvW meta for all the duration of PoF and guardian and it's e-specs have been it's robin.

If we had PoF compressed into 2-3 years instead of 5 years, the hate might not be as heavy as it is right now. However, the past is what it is and what the vocal community need the most right now is a competitive mode with necromancer and guardian in silent mode for at least a year.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

This is pretty much exact.

Below focuses on PvE primarily

There was a lot of hype buildup and talk about shuffling the game around so that we'll use things we haven't in years. There were mixed messages ("we hear Warriors don't want to use banners so we're going to make banners more appealing") but overall the community was very excited by the idea that suddenly X weapon or Y utility that hasn't been relevant for almost the entire game's life may suddenly be viable.

By the sounds of things, that's the ultimate path ANet wants, where you can grab a mishmash of every type of Profession and that's fine BUT that only works if the other Professions/Specs are brought up to the same level OR if those overperforming are brought down to an equal playing field

And this patch has not done that. 

Instead we're given minor tweaks (as you said) in addition to a few mechanic changes that for the most part are universally negatively received due to the massive lack in benefit compared to those 3-4 Elite Specs that are dominating nearly every End Game role.

If build X singularly can perform the role of build A (DPS), B (Support), C (Utility) at 80-90% effectiveness of each of those 3 roles, why would anyone ever bring A, B, C, in the group? Just bring 3 of build X and it will perform 2.4-2.7 times better than a group using A, B, and C.

The dissonance between the marketing announcements and the reality of the patch is at minimum jarring because the biggest question you see (myself included) is:

"Why and how is this considered to be a "major profession balance" patch?"

Everyone's expectation was husbanded towards Feb 2020 in scale and instead we received closer to August 2021

[Camniel.7238]

Honestly, I think people are expecting too much too quickly. We've had a big change in leadership within what the last year and a half and that's when things started to change albeit slowly. People keep pointing to the Cata nerfs and precision on Arms (a trait line that is already more than 50% about crit chance) as the direction of the game without even acknowledging the rework to Engi Rifle which was an abysmal weapon that didn't work with half the traits it needed to work with, or the Bladesworn utility changes.

 

My point is that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, but the player base is unwilling to see it because they see the company name and think everything is the same as it was before. We also do have to account for income and pay for hours worked being a limiting factor in the speed of the patch notes we want. Engi Rifle is a sign that they are willing to work on old unplayed content, but they have to brainstorm what changes MIGHT work and do the development for those changes. It takes time and we can't expect it to all be done at once.

 

I refuse to read the leaks, so I won't speak to any perception of arrogance beyond this: the player base has thrown tantrums over every expansion and major change and demanded something opposite of what was done every time. HoT saw complaints that it was too hard and too Meta event focused, so they took out Metas in PoF which then saw almost no replay because the community complained that there were no repeatedly major events to do (aka Meta events). EoD tried to compensate for that complaint by reinstating a Meta event focus and difficulty which has been met with more derision. Everytime the community makes demands and get what they want it ends up shooting ANet in the foot. So, they have to be careful to not give in to these tantrums all the time because the community doesn't actually know as much about what they want as they think they do. And the fact that people are complaining about Arms getting a little extra crit chance to what it ALREADY HAD (not to mention the complaints that Ele Air is the only place Ele gets more crit chance when power Ele builds were already almost guaranteed to take Air for its precision and ferocity) are signs that the players don't know half as much about what they're talking about as they think they do. ANet has to be careful giving in to conditions like that because it will always work out poorly in the long run. It's very easy to get frustrated with a player base that is always complaining, whether they understand the details or not.

 

As for the Builds A, B, and C remarks, I do agree that Builds C need to be addressed more. I just see Engi Rifle as a pointer in that direction. Fixing some of Bladesworns' utility skills and Thiefs' Shadow Arts are steps in that right direction as well. As for the 300s traits, yes those need to be brought down to something more useful, but if they do that, they know the community will throw a tantrum about it being too much, no matter what number they actually pick. So, I'm guessing that they're wary of doing so, and understandably so. 

 

Ok I'll stop talking here and will not likely be responding to any quotes since I'm expecting to get insulted again for not being on the constant hate train. Are there mistakes in the patch? Probably yes. But I argue that things are not NEARLY as bad as people are making it out to be. There are a lot of unanswered questions about many details of how the patch will work and many are jumping to many assumptions without actually knowing those answers.

[Jski.6180]

This is the big balance patch we have been waiting for 2 years and it very much dose not live up to the time waited.

[draxynnic.3719]

The problem with the 300s traits is that we were told that they would be temporary - a means of getting them out of competitive right away to give them time to come up with less problematic replacements.

Not only has that not happened, but EoD brought in a NEW one.

[Zoser.7245]

In the way they sold/advertised for months  the  changes for this balance patch, i was expecting a mechanical rework of warrior banners, ranger spirits, the necromancer warhorn...   some of those advertised "Presents", at least!  Even with animations and sounds. But the most important, different mechanics that make all them appealing to use, more fun and effective.

So imagine the deception when I saw the work they did in 6 months...  The same small tweaks again and , a considerable number of them, really bad and poorly designed or thought out.  Laziness? Neglect? Little professionalism? Bias balancing? Or rather a little or a lot of everything...  Although, perhaps, they do not value the balance as something important in their game.  

Oh yeah, and as mentioned above, those traits with 300s cooldown are still there. The icing on the cake. 👊  LOL 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Zoser.7245

[Altonese.6542]

This is absolutely my favourite thread on this matter.

Including the response from Camniel as I think its important to get perspective. This community needs to get a sense of balance.

The Boy Who Cried Wolf is supposed to be a cautionary tale. That being said, ArenaNet are people. Not some all-knowing creator that Knows Whats Best. Which means they will make mistakes and not be perfect with the right intentions - But that doesn't mean we can't hold them accountable. There has to be a turn to a happy centre between death threats and 'the devs are babies who do no wrong uwu'.

Which is why I like this thread. It's struck that balance, at least to me, both in the OP and in Camniel's retort. Very solid discourse.

I believe 100% Anet wants their game to thrive. Do they make mistakes? Yes. Sometimes it -does- feel like they bump in to every coffee table in the proverbial room as it were. As a Warrior Main, I feel it. Still no Swim Suit outfits, and I feel it. Issues, but issues can be fixed with communication and dedication by both devs and community.

[Heika.5403]

Almost ten years have passed since the game was released. A lot of time to learn, to achieve goals. And we're still like this...

[Obtena.7952]

I think Anet are not asking the right questions. For me, the issue Anet has is prioritizing changes, not how to change things. 

For example, how did Anet decide that Necro needed WH and Banshee Wail improved? Literally, what triggered those changes? Because if it was some player consult ... that player needs to give their head a shake. 

So many examples of these thematic changes over the history of this game. 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Tycura.1982]

I'm moreover pissed because the incapable balance team, that pawns off crappy patches on me more often than not, has the gall to talk smack about the community they can't even properly serve. Another thing is we now know they balance off of personal preference with some of the changes coming from a balance team that has zero insight into the classes and how they function.

It's people like me that keep them employed. I've been a customer of this game for a decade. If they want me to I can easily take my patronage elsewhere. Thats the message they're sending.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Tycura.1982

[ixon.2496]

4 hours ago, Camniel.7238 said:

Honestly, I think people are expecting too much too quickly. We've had a big change in leadership within what the last year and a half and that's when things started to change albeit slowly. People keep pointing to the Cata nerfs and precision on Arms (a trait line that is already more than 50% about crit chance) as the direction of the game without even acknowledging the rework to Engi Rifle which was an abysmal weapon that didn't work with half the traits it needed to work with, or the Bladesworn utility changes.

Go read the Feb 2020 patch notes, come back and tell me if this feels like a "Major Profession Balance Patch" to you.

Edited June 27, 2022 by ixon.2496

[Dadnir.5038]

5 minutes ago, ixon.2496 said:

Go read the Feb 2020 patch notes, come back and tell me if this feels like a "Major Profession Balance Patch" to you.

To be fair, Feb2020 was a one of kind balance patch.

[solemn.9608]

A friend who is supposedly in the 'know' told me there was recently a dumpster fire regarding an anet dev who basically said - paraphrasing here - "I'm going to irritate so many people with this patch and I love it, I main guardian and don't even know what I'm doing hahaha eat it get rekt gw2 community"

Haven't seen it with my own eyes but I believe it.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Fair to say at this point they just don't care and neither should we. 

#GW2Exodus @DKRathalos.9625 lesgoo

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 minute ago, solemn.9608 said:

A friend who is supposedly in the 'know' told me there was recently a dumpster fire regarding an anet dev who basically said - paraphrasing here - "I'm going to irritate so many people with this patch and I love it, I main guardian and don't even know what I'm doing hahaha eat it get rekt gw2 community"

Haven't seen it with my own eyes but I believe it.

Wtf lmao. 

Be it fake, be it real, sounds like a great thing! 

Are we allowed to duel the devs? Idk make them get more salty and nerf our classes more somehow! 

[Asum.4960]

5 hours ago, Camniel.7238 said:

Honestly, I think people are expecting too much too quickly. We've had a big change in leadership within what the last year and a half and that's when things started to change albeit slowly.

I'm playing with the same clearly best weapons, the same clearly best Utility skills and largely the same clearly best Traits since the Beta almost 10 years ago. Any years apart meaningful changes made just changed out what was overwhelmingly clearly the new best thing, usually while dismantling some fun and interesting synergy within the profession that made it unique. 

 

I don't think people are expecting too much too quickly, maybe we've just been here longer. There has always been something, they've always been busy laying the ground work for (then promptly abandoned) systems, always busy with focusing on the next expansion, just went through layoffs (and let's not forget, secretly diverting most of their studio away from GW2 for the longest time while working on their next games while still swearing commitment to GW2, which is what after the failure of those other projects lead to the layoffs in the first place), limited by covid, just had leadership changes, etc. - not to say I don't empathise with any or most of these, but it's been a decade now.

 

This pattern of behavior is way too soundly established for me to still have any belief in the "but, this time, soon things will start to change slowly" - until I see these positive changes and Anet properly investing into the games future, consistently, with my own eyes, these promises and sentiments are nothing but smoke and mirrors. 

The skills and balance team clearly needs to be looked at and invested in, like a decade ago.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Asum.4960

[solemn.9608]

1 minute ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Wtf lmao. 

Be it fake, be it real, sounds like a great thing! 

Are we allowed to duel the devs? Idk make them get more salty and nerf our classes more somehow! 

Should be a pre-requisite for every anet dev to fight harbingers on elementalist/warrior (no antitoxin rune allowed) In WvW. Make them main ele/warr for an entire week and when they've given up/lost all hope, maybe we'll see some logical changes.