Mesmer Feb 3 preview

[Xaylin.1860]

22 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Here is the problem with Mantras on mesmer, the fact that mesmers dont have any real form of sustainable stability makes it extremely punishing to cast mantras. For those who say mesmer has stealth/distortion there are classes out there that can insta-cast or slotted traits to give similar if not better effects then what mesmer mantras can provide. 

I partly disagree on this. Stability is an issue in large scale, encounters with environmental hazards or in narrow spaces. In small encounters or if there is space to kite Mesmers might have a better time at recharging than Firebrands. Not that it mattered too much as long as Firebrands have their strong effect on the final charge, meaning, the punishment of long charging is less meaningful.

 

This aside, I generally believe that current Mantras are just too similar to Shouts. Even more so since Shouts keep receiving charges as well. There should be differences. But there got to be a pay-off as well, of course.

 

Another thing I've been wondering... why now? Just for the Lols? In the past changes to Utility groups happened alongside the development of new elites. Sure, this is speculation. But maybe we will get another Mantra user in the future?

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Xaylin.1860

[Delta.1526]

On 2/8/2023 at 9:38 PM, Jitters.9401 said:

Can you move or are you stuck in one spot? Stuck in One spot is a death sentence just to not be able to actually use the mantras. 

my buddy in christ lmao, yes you can move. This isn't a new change, it's literally just the old system back.

[apharma.3741]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:38 AM, Jitters.9401 said:

No.

----Point

2 second cast time just to be able to use a Mantra... not actually use it hut be able to use it.....  absolutely nothing quick about it. What if you want to use more than 1 Mantra? Eeeks.

 

----Point

Easy to test in WvW... play an asura. Duel someone. During combat Summon a golem... 2 second cast time. Takes fricking forever and is easy "af" to interrupt. I tried it once to see what it was like.  Never again.

 

----Point

If I can interrupt a thief casting a 1 second hide in shadows, then 2 seconds is sinfully easy.. 

 

----Question

Can you move or are you stuck in one spot? Stuck in One spot is a death sentence just to not be able to actually use the mantras. 

 

I use two mantras for two reasons.

Pain, Distraction. 

(A) To use up the enemy aegis and/or apply vulnerability. 

(B) To use up the enemy aegis and/or daze.

 

Popping aegis is my main priority though.

 

Having to use a 2 second channel for each of 2 mantras when I should be dodging..... yikes. Do you want to sign the death certificate and my toe tag now or later? 

 

Much of the time I am fighting multiple opponents.  Being forced to channel mantras is ridiculously stupid. 

 

When people say "kite"... Rofl. 

How? Like literally... how? You cannot.

Melee will stay in range with you. They have insta cast closing abilities.  Many have increased speed.....

 or pets/mechs.

You cannot cast a 2 second Mantra and expect to kite that....

Ranged can just stand in one spot and pick you off with ease.

 

So to tell someone to "kite" is plain naive. 

 

So I do not like nor appreciate this change.  

 

 

Edit" Am I going to have to play a clunky bunker build mesmer instead of a fun build mesmer? "

OK so I'm going to make it super easy for you and everyone else with these complaints.
Before the fight starts you channel the mantra.
You don't use your last charge and it has the same cool down as now because the cool down on charges is abysmal NOW and is not changing.

If the "fight will be over by the time my first charge comes back to use" then use both and it would have made no difference except you might have been able to recharge them both much faster if you tried. Maybe even recharge in distortion/stealth or when they kite away.
For everyone else, they will be charging the mantra and consuming the charges asap as everything good about them is restored in the charging now.

In other words you can use them both ways! 😮

[semak.7481]

Long story short: Its good that the charge effect is back as without it, they were as terrible as cmc at balancing this "gaem"

Edited February 10, 2023 by semak.7481

[phokus.8934]

Change the channel from 2s to 1s and I'm fine with them bringing this back.

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

In other words you can use them both ways! 😮

So I can change maps, mount, die and respawn, swap skills, use all my charges etc without the pointless busy work of having to charge them for no reason?

Edited February 10, 2023 by Levetty.1279

[Delta.1526]

9 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

OK so I'm going to make it super easy for you and everyone else with these complaints.
Before the fight starts you channel the mantra.
You don't use your last charge and it has the same cool down as now because the cool down on charges is abysmal NOW and is not changing.

Exactly! The mantra revert is just giving people more options in how to use their skills. If the numbers in the livestream are anything to go by, Mantra of Concentration in particular will be far more powerful.

Current effect: 3s of 3 Stability stacks, 2 charges, 30-45s recharge (depending on gamemode)

"New" effect: 3s of 3 Stability stacks, 2 charges, 5 second cooldown between charges, 15s cooldown on the Mantra which gives 5s of Aegis and 5 Stability stacks.

 

 

Apparently it's a problem that Mesmer doesn't have 'sustainable stability'; with more flexible mantras, we absolutely do. Granted, it cannot cover its own cast time so there's counterplay to it, but it could cover the cast time of the other Mantras. Plus, like...in a scenario where you burn all your Concentration charges and die because the mantra got interrupted, you'd be just as dead waiting on that 45s cooldown lmao, this is a straight buff.

[ascii.1369]

Seems to me there is a lot of  people talking past each other when it comes to mantras. As far as I can tell the people who like the change and those who don't are talking about different things. The people who like the change do so because it's a straight up buff to what mantras do, which it is. The people who dislike the change do so because in their oppinion the gameplay is slow, clunky and just overall unfun. The latter is of course much more subjective, however it seems many people feel that way. After all that's why it was changed in the first place, because it played like kitten. Further, mantras had the issue that it offten wasn't worth to use the final charge because having to channel again was so bad compared to staying in "charge mode". While they did adress this by saying that it's not an issue, just needs to be balanced right, I have little faith they can manage that, given how balance is going at the moment.

 

Perosnally I just don't like the original design of mantras, having two similar/complementing abilities baked into one. To me it's just not fun to play. Having to cast one side of the mantra to get to the other, even though you wouldn't use this skill at that moment normally just doesn't feel good.

[Moradorin.6217]

57 minutes ago, ascii.1369 said:

Seems to me there is a lot of  people talking past each other when it comes to mantras. As far as I can tell the people who like the change and those who don't are talking about different things. The people who like the change do so because it's a straight up buff to what mantras do, which it is. The people who dislike the change do so because in their oppinion the gameplay is slow, clunky and just overall unfun. The latter is of course much more subjective, however it seems many people feel that way. After all that's why it was changed in the first place, because it played like kitten. Further, mantras had the issue that it offten wasn't worth to use the final charge because having to channel again was so bad compared to staying in "charge mode". While they did adress this by saying that it's not an issue, just needs to be balanced right, I have little faith they can manage that, given how balance is going at the moment.

 

Perosnally I just don't like the original design of mantras, having two similar/complementing abilities baked into one. To me it's just not fun to play. Having to cast one side of the mantra to get to the other, even though you wouldn't use this skill at that moment normally just doesn't feel good.

Personally, I feel like each has its benefits and drawbacks. I spent more time w Mantras before the current way they function so a revert back sounds fine to me. That said, its not really a big issue to me personally at the moment. I feel like I could adapt either way.

 

The bigger issue to me is STILL no mention of Mirage's other dodge that was supposed to be on the table last year when they gave Vindicator a 2nd dodge. I really think its the most important issue for Mesmer overall because it seems to potencially be related to some personal bias that needs to be overcome for Mesmer to get comprehensive balance.

That is, the one dodge issue is the biggest Mesmer issue because it seems to get at the heart of the obvious bias the balance team has demonstrated (and lets not forget what was said in the actual balance disc that was leaked).

At the very least Mirage should have a consistent amount of dodges across the 3 game modes (pvp/wvw/pve) be it 1, 2, or 3 dodges. So I really think its in everyones best interest to keep hammering on that nail.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:12 AM, Levetty.1279 said:

Mantra's have literally never had an effect strong enough to justify this.

Mantra of distraction is literally the strongest interrupt tool in the game, but I guess that means nothing

[Mungo Zen.9364]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Mantra of distraction is literally the strongest interrupt tool in the game, but I guess that means nothing

I was going to reply something about current Mesmer players having never played with Mantras prior to the May 11 2021 patch....and I was re-reading the patch notes and man, did they eviscerate Chrono with that patch.  It was also when they reworked Chaos and gave Mirage Staff/Staff Alac.

Part of that patch was the healing from Restorative Mantras being nerfed by 50%, and I had forgotten that.  It is actually really disappointing to read old patch notes and see the BS they did to this profession (and others, we aren't the only emo kids here).

Anyway, this part I found interesting and, you guys might want to contextualize it against what they are telling us now, nearly 2 years later.

Quote

Mantras (Mesmer and Firebrand)

We acknowledge that there are significant flaws with the core gameplay innate to mantra skills, and that this problem was exacerbated in Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire™ when we switched mesmer mantras to an ammunition system, creating an incentive to not use the final charge. This is a poor user experience and something we have hoped for a long time to be able to come back and address.

Needing to prepare for combat by using a sequence of skills with a long casting time is not fun, and in most cases, using the final charge of a mantra in combat felt like a mistake. It not only denied your use of the skill for a long time, but it also required you to prepare your mantras again after the cooldown expired. Instead of being rewarding to use, mantras have been a chore; something you need to remember to do every time you change maps or respawn, or deal with after every /gg in a fractal, strike, or raid. Holding your group up while you again prepare each of your mantras never feels great either!

During the development of this balance patch, we tried several alternatives, including automatic preparation while out of combat. Ultimately, we found that the best course of action was to simplify the mantra skills and remove the preparation mechanic altogether, as this ensures that we can have consistent behavior between mesmer and firebrand mantras, as well as consistent core functionality between PvE and PvP game modes. As a result, in this balance update, we have decided to rework both mesmer and firebrand mantras into simple ammunition skills.

What this means:

No more preparing mantras before use. They are always in the "ready" mode, storing up uses.

Firebrand mantras are no longer stronger on final charge. All uses are the same.

Mesmer mantras no longer do something on preparing.

Some related tuning and trait changes will happen as a result. While this results in a loss of some of the current flavor inherent to the mantra skill type, we have found that the ability to easily read, understand, and use these skills in normal gameplay is a strong improvement to the play experience.

ahhh what a trip down memory lane. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Mungo Zen.9364

[godfat.2604]

It’s just my guess, but I assume what this means is that Solar and CMC shared much different ideas about what is a good player experience, and this change was probably also quite controversial within the balance “team”.

I feel very complicated, because I did love the old mantra and I also miss the 600 toughness to tank damage while chanting, however on the other hand, I do agree it’s more complex gameplay and can be annoying to use. What I am certain is, it was a giant nerf to remove preparing effects, and I am very happy to be “buffed” by getting that back, as well as some group effects we don’t have back then. I would be also fine if they just buff mantras without getting preparation back. It’s just so freaking weaker comparing to Firebrand mantra that I am really unhappy about.

On the other hand, I am also quite fed up with the spamming everything gameplay they had introduced over the years, and mantra without preparation certainly contributed to that, too. So while this is sort of a silly revert, I do think it’s in the right direction. We can see how to fix the clunkiness next, and I do see people are already suggesting that. (Like, make it less likely to accidentally use the last charge, or somehow still make it auto-charge when it’s not prepared)

Lastly, mandatory to request mirage 2nd dodge! 😛

[Levetty.1279]

11 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Mantra of distraction is literally the strongest interrupt tool in the game, but I guess that means nothing

You are not interrupting anything with a 2 second cast time.

[Levetty.1279]

11 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Needing to prepare for combat by using a sequence of skills with a long casting time is not fun, 

They admit it themselves and still want to revert it for no reason. More proof that the current balance team actively hates people having fun with this game.

[Waffles.5632]

10 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

They admit it themselves and still want to revert it for no reason. More proof that the current balance team actively hates people having fun with this game.

After the last patch preview, I confidently believe that at the very least, CMC is heavily biased against Mesmers.

 

Edit:  I wanted to expand just a little bit and say that the above statement does not make me angry, but rather sad tbh. It just sucks when you feel like the lead dev has it out for your class, and I say that as someone who actually agrees with most of his balance decisions.

The treatment Mirage has gotten however is just downright unfair tbh and it's just honestly so out of character for him. It definitely feels like he looks at Mirage completely differently than any other class and I feel that I am not the only one who sees that. There's a bias in there. That is how I feel.

This coupled with the reality that realistically speaking, we're not going to see any pvp changes until 4-6months out, possibly a year or more.

Another year of one dodge in pvp/wvw....?

No thank you.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Xenesis.6389]

12 hours ago, Waffles.5632 said:

After the last patch preview, I confidently believe that at the very least, CMC is heavily biased against Mesmers.

 

Edit:  I wanted to expand just a little bit and say that the above statement does not make me angry, but rather sad tbh. It just sucks when you feel like the lead dev has it out for your class, and I say that as someone who actually agrees with most of his balance decisions.

The treatment Mirage has gotten however is just downright unfair tbh and it's just honestly so out of character for him. It definitely feels like he looks at Mirage completely differently than any other class and I feel that I am not the only one who sees that. There's a bias in there. That is how I feel.

This coupled with the reality that realistically speaking, we're not going to see any pvp changes until 4-6months out, possibly a year or more.

Another year of one dodge in pvp/wvw....?

No thank you.

 

Him putting in one dodge mirage in the first place didn't tell you that?

😐

[Waffles.5632]

8 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Him putting in one dodge mirage in the first place didn't tell you that?

😐

AFAIK that wasn't him, but someone else. I could be wrong, I just seem to remember that CMC wasn't always balance lead, and there was another balance lead during initial one dodge mirage. I think it was the same dev that said, and I quote "I buffed staff because I didn't like axe" (<--- this is the alac/8x might buff on staff ambush he's talking about)

 

Also pre-eod one dodge mirage was pretty fine. Here is a ranked match from scourge meta so you can see how much "slower" the game was before EoD.

 

Keep in mind, even back then, people called one dodge mirage unplayable, and Power Mirage hasn't been a thing for well over 2+ years at this point. Condi Mirage near PoF release was downright abusive and oppressive. The problem very much was having two dodges that could be used any time, as Mirage Cloak is still the best dodge in the entire game. However! Power Creep with EoD! More classes are on even playing fields than ever now, it's just some (cata/vindi) are seriously absurd so it makes everyone else look weak.

Don't get me wrong, whoever decided one dodge made a pretty terrible choice because it was just a quick short term fix, but it wasn't as bad as it is now. Also remember EoD brought about Vindi which was one dodge at first, this gave hope that Anet would change/buff Mirage traits to compensate around one dodge. Then out of nowhere Anet gave up on Vindi one dodge and the rest is history because Mirage has just been left behind in the dust. Anet basically lied to all Mesmers through Vindi tbh.

 

Sorry for long post, I just want to place blame correctly here, as CMC already gets a lot for stuff he didn't do, or had no control over. It's important we get the history right because we say "we want two dodges" but Mirage got nerfed way more than just halving dodges.

Mirage Cloak used to last 1 second, not 3/4ths, Vigor nerfs on traits, jaunt only having 2 ammo, they removed burning from staff, etc. There's a list somewhere, probably in the 2nd dodge thread.

If by some miracle a dev reads, then my hope is they understand it's not just one dodge. Mirage got hit nerf after nerf after nerf until Anet basically killed it, they did this with Chrono as well, with the final nail in the coffin being the removal of core distortion. (but they gave that back rather recently so)

I think the rationale is they are scared of re-awakening condi mirage from it's slumber, but I just don't think Condi Mirage is the terror it once was now that EoD is in the mix. All IMO tho!

Edited February 13, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Moradorin.6217]

34 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

AFAIK that wasn't him, but someone else. I could be wrong, I just seem to remember that CMC wasn't always balance lead, and there was another balance lead during initial one dodge mirage. I think it was the same dev that said, and I quote "I buffed staff because I didn't like axe" (<--- this is the alac/8x might buff on staff ambush he's talking about)

 

Also pre-eod one dodge mirage was pretty fine. Here is a ranked match from scourge meta so you can see how much "slower" the game was before EoD.

 

Keep in mind, even back then, people called one dodge mirage unplayable, and Power Mirage hasn't been a thing for well over 2+ years at this point. Condi Mirage near PoF release was downright abusive and oppressive. The problem very much was having two dodges that could be used any time, as Mirage Cloak is still the best dodge in the entire game. However! Power Creep with EoD! More classes are on even playing fields than ever now, it's just some (cata/vindi) are seriously absurd so it makes everyone else look weak.

Don't get me wrong, whoever decided one dodge made a pretty terrible choice because it was just a quick short term fix, but it wasn't as bad as it is now. Also remember EoD brought about Vindi which was one dodge at first, this gave hope that Anet would change/buff Mirage traits to compensate around one dodge. Then out of nowhere Anet gave up on Vindi one dodge and the rest is history because Mirage has just been left behind in the dust. Anet basically lied to all Mesmers through Vindi tbh.

 

Sorry for long post, I just want to place blame correctly here, as CMC already gets a lot for stuff he didn't do, or had no control over. It's important we get the history right because we say "we want two dodges" but Mirage got nerfed way more than just halving dodges.

Vigor nerfs on traits, jaunt only having 2 ammo, they removed burning from staff, etc. There's a list somewhere, probably in this very thread.

If by some miracle a dev reads, then my hope is they understand it's not just one dodge. Mirage got hit nerf after nerf after nerf until Anet basically killed it, they did this with Chrono as well, with the final nail in the coffin being the removal of core distortion. (but they gave that back rather recently so)

I think the rationale is they are scared of re-awakening condi mirage from it's slumber, but I just don't think Condi Mirage is the terror it once was now that EoD is in the mix. All IMO tho!

As far as I know the one dodge Mirage split-mode nerf was always attributed to CMC's balance decisions. Its hard to recall specifics off-hand from 3+ years ago but I do remember that for sure. IIRC it was done after he took over the pvp/wvw side or got some other promotion that put him in charge of that aspect of balance.

 

Also since then leaks have come out about flat out bias against mesmer between members of the balance team and its consultant players, specifically about Mesmer and keeping it undertooned intentionally. (aka the Bias we all talk about) Its a real factual thing, sadly.

 

One dodge Mirage is playable like anything. ANYTHING is playable and with enough practice and some luck can see some good moments and matches. That doesnt mean its balanced or good.

To me the biggest issue of one dodge was always that its a split-mode functionality so anyone who mains on a Mirage and plays between modes got screwed hard because you will hae 2 dodges in pve then your que is called for pvp and you have one dodge all of a sudden for the match (same for while in wvw) and its very disruptive to play continuity. Plus it was only done to balance dps numbers on Mirage clones which is lazy af imo.

So to me its a HUGE issue and it really had nothing to do with if I could make one dodge work in wvw/pvp or not. The issue is the split-mode functionality!

I really could be fine with one dodge in all 3 game modes if Mirage was balanced that way. I want a consistent number of dodges between pve/wvw/pvp for Mirage. Its that simple.

 

The one dodge split mode thing is 100% indefensibly bad design IMO.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Waffles.5632]

15 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

As far as I know the one dodge Mirage split-mode nerf was always attributed to CMC's balance decisions. Its hard to recall specifics off-hand from 3+ years ago but I do remember that for sure. IIRC it was done after he took over the pvp/wvw side or got some other promotion that put him in charge of that aspect of balance.

 

Also since then leaks have come out about flat out bias against mesmer between members of the balance team and its consultant players, specifically about Mesmer and keeping it undertooned intentionally. (aka the Bias we all talk about) Its a real factual thing, sadly.

Man has it really been that long? Wow, you are right. Mirage Cloak got halved on Feb 25th 2020. 😱💀 I just looked it up on wiki.

And I remember those leaks! If you are talking about that secret discord chat between the devs and some gw2 streamers/players I mean. Was CMC a part of that as well? I know he wasn't lead back then, but yeah, he most likely was still in the chat. It sucks because there was a whole thread about it in the pvp section, like 10+ pages, and Anet outright deleted it because no names were censored. It was even on reddit too, though the final version had to have every single name blacked out due to privacy so you couldn't really tell who said what.

Have there been other leaks also? Actually don't answer that because I don't want to get anyone banned. That discord chat is not something you can really talk openly about on the forums. The only silver lining was I do seem to remember that the lead balance dev at that time was positioned somewhere else because of the whole debacle and then CMC really took over as lead.

You are right, it's very hard to recall all the specifics because it has been entirely way too long. God I just want Mirage's second dodge back.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[viquing.8254]

The main thing about one dodge mirage is that it came AFTER nerfing  endurance/vigor generation skills/traits, which impacted core on many ways.

Mean "We nerf everything because mirage evade is OP" then we remove one dodge...

[Moradorin.6217]

10 minutes ago, viquing.8254 said:

The main thing about one dodge mirage is that it came AFTER nerfing  endurance/vigor generation skills/traits, which impacted core on many ways.

Mean "We nerf everything because mirage evade is OP" then we remove one dodge...

Right, tbh that was the big issue to me other than the split mode thing too. That they had already been super focused on nerfing Mirage's dodge and evade frequency in many ways that impacted core then they did one dodge later and that was why core was so weak for so long. I really just wish they would give Mirage a consistent number of dodges and balance it via ambush damage/effect output like they used to. If ambush while CCed is such an issue (I dont agree it is) then IH could get a 1.5-2 sec cooldown to stop people from being able to ambush a 2nd time back to back so the clones cannot attack on the 2nd dodge and done deal.

 

At

[Levetty.1279]

11 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Him putting in one dodge mirage in the first place didn't tell you that?

😐

Wasn't CmC the one who said Mesmer should never be allowed to be good in the first set of balance discord leaks that nobody cared about because the incels at reddit couldn't use them to cry about Elementalist?

[Moradorin.6217]

40 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Wasn't CmC the one who said Mesmer should never be allowed to be good in the first set of balance discord leaks that nobody cared about because the incels at reddit couldn't use them to cry about Elementalist?

mhmm

[Waffles.5632]

59 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Wasn't CmC the one who said Mesmer should never be allowed to be good in the first set of balance discord leaks that nobody cared about because the incels at reddit couldn't use them to cry about Elementalist?

I stand corrected since that does indeed seem to be the case.

I wonder now how long that bias has been there and what caused it to begin with. I also can't deny reality. Mirage was not even mentioned once during last stream, and the look on CMC's face when they got to Mesmer during the preview plus the tone just said it all for me personally. It felt like he was actively avoiding bringing up anything Mirage related.

 

Idk if I even set my expectations too high because all I was looking forward to was a mention, even a "We're still debating on returning 2nd dodge", something! But to get nothing really felt like a punch to the gut.

 

Well, see you all May 2nd! 😂😭

[Xenesis.6389]

Well Moradorin pretty much summed it up, so I won't go over it.

Just wanted to point out just because CMC is now in charge, doesn't mean the entire "team" was replaced, and also doesn't mean the "team" doesn't have a say in anything, including the time he wasn't the lead but on the team, which has been for years including his time in pvp and wvw balancing. So while everyone cheered after the fiasco last year, I groaned. Since that time Vindicators, a much newer spec, designed specifically with one dodge in mind, has had it's mechanic changed, meanwhile mirage dodge hasn't been touched still. Let's not forget the snicker he had over one dodge when he was announcing virtuoso.

Yes I'm still salty over one dodge mirage, yes I also want anet to do better, and treat this entire class fairly compared to all the others, that includes doing proper changes for chronos, not the underwhelming ones that somehow always involving wells and shield, while still shaking my head over the manipulation changes.