Hello Commanders, quit putting people in line 1 and make subgroups! Holy Jesus!

[Kal Durak.2830]

Hello Commanders, quit putting people in line 1 and make subgroups! Holy Jesus!

The skills per toon are matched to help a subgroup, L2P please@!

[RisenHowl.2419]

Join comms to get out of party 1

[ArchonWing.9480]

Being useful helps too.

Many of these squads run arcdps so if you're placing decently for.... something, you will get placed eventually. Build doesn't matter; results do.  If they're refusing to give their top 5 dps a proper spot, it's their loss really.

I had a friend that rarely played WvW but always brought the damage, so he never had much trouble finding a spot.

Alternatively, you can just bring some friends in the squad and have your own comp.

Edited February 21, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Dahkeus.8243]

Eh, if someone is willing to take on the added stress responsibility of tagging up, then they can do as they please.  Managing subgroups is work that case be tedious when people are constantly joining and leaving.  
 

At the end of the day, if you don’t like how someone runs their tag, then run your own how you want.  If your way it’s really better, you’ll get plenty of followers.

[Chaba.5410]

Party 1 is the "lobby".  They do it in PvE squads too.  I don't see the problem.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Stand The Wall.6987]

thats the job of the lieutenant the commander appoints

[KeyOrion.9506]

Should have thrown Arcdps into the Garbage File.  That's one reason why classes and professions are not wanted or needed.  This is what causes Shut Outs overall to entire swaths of professions and specializations. "Oh, your THIS class.  Your DPS should be XX,XXX." Or, "Oh your a healer, well your healing should be XXX,XXX."  If I had the option, and I was in charge of Arenanet, I would make sure that particular program had no proper access to the game.  Before it's implementation, nobody questioned what profession/specialization you were.  Now?  Now it's gotten out of hand.

[MarzAttakz.9608]

The onus is on the commander for sure and if you're running boon ball with proper squad builds then it makes absolute sense to do so.

On the other hand if you're clouding or commanding pugs there's very little value in doing so, especially when you only have enough firebrands for two sub-groups.

Personally I prefer sub-groups but it is what it is.

ArcDps to a degree can be seen as elitist. However having oversight on what is happening within the squad is useful - it's what you do with the information that matters most. For example, the recent influx of newer players running bad builds is very noticable in both Arc logs and fight results. And by bad I don't mean not running zerg builds, I mean running something they cannot DPS or survive with. For those of us aware of this it tells us we have a serious job to do to improve as a community. It may be different on your server, but ours is full, without a link and it's a problem we have to solve internally ourselves.

[Sahne.6950]

Alot people have "unlocked Subgroups", sometimes you can just join the subgroup you want. 

When i lead a pug, i dont give a kitten about the groups. i just unlock them and let people sort it out themselves.

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Ombras.2853 said:

The reason why classes and professions are not wanted, is because they are not needed.

If they are bad in a zerg fight, they are bad.

If you play healers that don't provide either stab nor cleanses, you are trolling your subgroup.

If you play dps that don't provide boonstrips nor reflects, you are trolling your own blob.

Just be useful to your world, instead of complaining because "I want to play the way I want to!"

Elitism go BRRRR 

[Ashen.2907]

3 hours ago, KeyOrion.9506 said:

Before it's implementation, nobody questioned what profession/specialization you were.  Now?  Now it's gotten out of hand.

This is completely inaccurate. 

[Sahne.6950]

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

If you play dps that don't provide boonstrips nor reflects, you are trolling your own blob.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_Hammer_Backline 

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Dragonhunter_-_Power_DH

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Weaver_-_Staff_Backline

Trolling my own blob with this? None of those have boonstrip nor do they have any reflects.

What builds am i allowed to play according to you? Teach me.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Ombras.2853]

You literally mentioned metaclasses (bar Weaver which is more... marginal, but it's still widely accepted).

What has this anything to do with the above post?

EDIT: also, if you are unaware, they do have those.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Ombras.2853

[Custodio.6134]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_Hammer_Backline 

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Dragonhunter_-_Power_DH

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Weaver_-_Staff_Backline

Trolling my own blob with this? None of those have boonstrip nor do they have any reflects.

What builds am i allowed to play according to you? Teach me.

True, but @Ombras.2853 is not entirely wrong. 

Every squad needs a mix of both: raw DPS and boonstrip. There´s a reason why the basic group-structure is always roughly the same: 

1 Firebrand (for obvious reasons: way too much defensive boon-support and other utility to not take a FB per sub)
1 off-support (since you don´t really have heal and cleanse on FB, that´s the job for Scrapper/Tempest/Vindicator) 
1 Herald (permanent swiftness and Fury are just too good not to take, and the ranged-spike is just a too good tool not to have)

So 2 spots are now open for boonstrip and additional DPS (in combination with some optional utility). 
one of those you will pretty much guarantee to fill with a scourge (it´s the best combination of both: boonstrip/corrupt and spike-damage, aka Shades, Wells, Breach). 

This leaves another one open for either another DPS (Scrapper, another Scourge, Weaver, DH etc) or other utility (Chrono, Spellbreaker)

------------------
With that settled:
Back to the original topic. 

If you are able to move yourself out of sub 1: why are you that lazy to not do it yourself? Finding the best spot to move yourself in is not hard (as i just explained basic group-setup above). Don´t always expect others to do everything for you. Especially the commander has way too much to take care of when leading than checking subgroups. Especially if they´re playing Firebrand (which is very often the case, as they track important cooldowns this way), they won´t even see you in sub1 (because they´re not in grid view and literally cannot see you setting up your tent in sub1). 
If the leutenant is not moving you, and subs are locked, the reason is usually (in case of open squads with locked subs), that you are not in voice. get in voice-->get moved in that case. 

If you´re not playing a useful build, you´re trolling the whole squad, thus you´re also not getting a sub (and will most likely be get kicked out anyway, at latest once the squad is full/nearly full). 

Builds that are widely considere meta or useful would be: 
Meta:
Support-Firebrand
Heal-Scrapper
Heal-Tempest
Heal-Vindicator
Hammer-Herald
Power-Scourge
Support-Spellbreaker
Support-Chronomancer
----
Niche, but useful
DPS-Scrapper
DPS-Dragonhunter
DPS-Weaver

ofc assuming you are running a meta-build on those, not just some random stuff you´ve thrown together

Edited February 21, 2023 by Custodio.6134

[Sahne.6950]

9 minutes ago, Ombras.2853 said:

You literally mentioned metaclasses (bar Weaver which is more... marginal, but it's still widely accepted).

What has this anything to do with the above post?

EDIT: also, if you are unaware, they do have those.

He said a Dps class needs also reflects or it needs boonstrip.... or you are trolling

But there is widely accepted builds that have none of the two.

[Sahne.6950]

I totally understand what your saying, but i think you made a typo or something... idk.. reread what you said!

"If you play dps that don't provide boonstrips nor reflects, you are trolling your subgroup"

Also you: "if you are unaware, they(dh, hammerrev, backlinestaff) do have those. (Boonstrip and reflects)

enlighten me. Because when i play DH, i cant find them.

And thats why i also said ELITISM GO BRR... because according to your own words, i am no longer allowed to play dh,  because i cant provide reflects for the group, nor do i strip boons... and according to your own wordings i am trolling my subgroup with this.

 

 

I just wholeheartedly believe, that people dont need to be so restrictive when it comes to other peoples builds. Especially when the zerg is not full. When the zerg is full, this is diffrent. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Absurd.2947]

DH is the best burst in game rn, not to mention LB5. But there are servers that aren't picky about what they allow in squads. They don't win many fights. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Absurd.2947

[Riba.3271]

Actually as long as there is no hotkey option in the game to swap between party and squad window, sorting out the squad is very tedious thing to do with people leaving and coming all the time. Good firebrands play with party window so they can cleanse and heal at right moments.

Sorting out parties correctly is much more time consuming than you think:

1.  You have to check AP, guild and foods on the player to ensure experienced players on proper builds aren't wasted or ragequit instantly. No oils/stones or even foods => player that deserves to be with other such people. Minmaxing people should be with minmaxing people, others are just hoping to land some skills throwing them randomly around.
2. You also have to check afks and keep track of DPS meter if there are any hidden thrash or gems
3. You have to think about optimal party comps (Fury, Quick, heal, cleanse, damage reduction, stab). If you notice someone playing Dura or Pack runes, his value goes skyhigh, hes actually a player who is about winning.
4. You have to adapt to missing classes, what do you do if there are no revs or guards, the 2 most important classes?
5. You have to actually tell people what is missing
6. Ideally you would also tell people what they're playing is useless and promote some kind of WvW builds since some condi firebrand mains will never make a good build by themselves

This is why if you have 50 people in squad, you need maybe 3 lieutenants that know how to do the above. You can't just slap people together, and have some first time signet condi firebrand together in a same party with omegagiga top dps god players.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Riba.3271

[neven.3785]

Quite often its not even worth it, a pug raid of 20-30 and maybe there is 3 support players, half the players running wvw meta, the other half random roaming builds.

When the guild runs, group 1 is for random people who join and don't confirm they are in comms to listen.  Plus our off tag scouts w/ shared participation

Edited February 21, 2023 by neven.3785

[Biermeister.4678]

Depends on the number of support if sub-squads are needed, sometimes the party one blob works just fine 

[enkidu.5937]

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Elitism go BRRRR 

brainses in front, cookie cutters behind ! 😁

[enkidu.5937]

So we already had the guy that claims that losing with 25 meta builds is better than winning with 25 meta builds + 25 others.

 

And we had the guy that claims that losing with 25 ppl on voice chat is better than winning with 25 voice chat + 25 others.

 

We are still waiting for the guy that claims that "clouding is not fighting", and get either one-pushed by a guild boon ball or clouded to death by a lower number of roamers.

 

. . . while we are waiting I may as for a friend:

he has hard time to find those magic boon strip skills on is zerker scourge while in downstate all the time 😏

[KeyOrion.9506]

9 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

True, but @Ombras.2853 is not entirely wrong. 

Every squad needs a mix of both: raw DPS and boonstrip. There´s a reason why the basic group-structure is always roughly the same: 

1 Firebrand (for obvious reasons: way too much defensive boon-support and other utility to not take a FB per sub)
1 off-support (since you don´t really have heal and cleanse on FB, that´s the job for Scrapper/Tempest/Vindicator) 
1 Herald (permanent swiftness and Fury are just too good not to take, and the ranged-spike is just a too good tool not to have)

So 2 spots are now open for boonstrip and additional DPS (in combination with some optional utility). 
one of those you will pretty much guarantee to fill with a scourge (it´s the best combination of both: boonstrip/corrupt and spike-damage, aka Shades, Wells, Breach). 

This leaves another one open for either another DPS (Scrapper, another Scourge, Weaver, DH etc) or other utility (Chrono, Spellbreaker)

------------------
With that settled:
Back to the original topic. 

If you are able to move yourself out of sub 1: why are you that lazy to not do it yourself? Finding the best spot to move yourself in is not hard (as i just explained basic group-setup above). Don´t always expect others to do everything for you. Especially the commander has way too much to take care of when leading than checking subgroups. Especially if they´re playing Firebrand (which is very often the case, as they track important cooldowns this way), they won´t even see you in sub1 (because they´re not in grid view and literally cannot see you setting up your tent in sub1). 
If the leutenant is not moving you, and subs are locked, the reason is usually (in case of open squads with locked subs), that you are not in voice. get in voice-->get moved in that case. 

If you´re not playing a useful build, you´re trolling the whole squad, thus you´re also not getting a sub (and will most likely be get kicked out anyway, at latest once the squad is full/nearly full). 

Builds that are widely considere meta or useful would be: 
Meta:
Support-Firebrand
Heal-Scrapper
Heal-Tempest
Heal-Vindicator
Hammer-Herald
Power-Scourge
Support-Spellbreaker
Support-Chronomancer
----
Niche, but useful
DPS-Scrapper
DPS-Dragonhunter
DPS-Weaver

ofc assuming you are running a meta-build on those, not just some random stuff you´ve thrown together

 

So no Thief or Ranger meta builds for the Zerg?  Notice, I did not state Solo roamers, I said, Thief and Ranger meta's for zerg.  Do you have one, yes or no.  And if the answer is no, why?

[Custodio.6134]

41 minutes ago, KeyOrion.9506 said:

 

So no Thief or Ranger meta builds for the Zerg?  Notice, I did not state Solo roamers, I said, Thief and Ranger meta's for zerg.  Do you have one, yes or no.  And if the answer is no, why?

Well, ranger is still to be determined, but personal opinion: Druid still gets outperformed by scrapper, tempest and vindicator for support because of all the other utility those 3 bring on the table. 

DPS-ranger literally just doesn´t work mechanically just because of how cleave-damage/longbow works against large groups (or rather, how bad it works for rangers compared to scourge/herald/scrapper). One reflect basically disables longbow-ranger, going melee is very risky and while some niece-builds CAN work (immobbeas for example), the skill-level required is just too high. And it cannot even compete against something like DPS-Scrapper, that is 10x easier to play, while additionally lacking synergizing effects that massively amplify effectivity of groups. 

For thieves this is almost the same. With good skill you can make a niece-build work, but the benefit is just not worth than just taking a different class essentially. 

TL:DR: in most cases, everything those classes can do, and that would theoretically work in such a setup, can also be done by a different class, but better. 

Important here: This does NOT mean Ranger or Thief are generally bad classes in WvW. They just dont serve the particular theme for zerging. Their strengths lie in roaming and smaller groups and both can completely dominate there. It´s just that they´re not designed or balanced to work as good as other classes in zerging. 

[kash.9213]

53 minutes ago, Custodio.6134 said:

1. TL:DR: in most cases, everything those classes can do, and that would theoretically work in such a setup, can also be done by a different class, but better. 

2. Important here: This does NOT mean Ranger or Thief are generally bad classes in WvW. They just dont serve the particular theme for zerging. Their strengths lie in roaming and smaller groups and both can completely dominate there. It´s just that they´re not designed or balanced to work as good as other classes in zerging. 

 

Well, ranger is still to be determined, but personal opinion: Druid still gets outperformed by scrapper, tempest and vindicator for support because of all the other utility those 3 bring on the table. 

DPS-ranger literally just doesn´t work mechanically just because of how cleave-damage/longbow works against large groups (or rather, how bad it works for rangers compared to scourge/herald/scrapper). One reflect basically disables longbow-ranger, going melee is very risky and while some niece-builds CAN work (immobbeas for example), the skill-level required is just too high. And it cannot even compete against something like DPS-Scrapper, that is 10x easier to play, while additionally lacking synergizing effects that massively amplify effectivity of groups. 

For thieves this is almost the same. With good skill you can make a niece-build work, but the benefit is just not worth than just taking a different class essentially. 

TL:DR: in most cases, everything those classes can do, and that would theoretically work in such a setup, can also be done by a different class, but better. 

Important here: This does NOT mean Ranger or Thief are generally bad classes in WvW. They just dont serve the particular theme for zerging. Their strengths lie in roaming and smaller groups and both can completely dominate there. It´s just that they´re not designed or balanced to work as good as other classes in zerging. 

1. Maybe that holds in other game modes but in WvW if someone can make a nice build work then they know what they're doing and they have a reason they roll with it, so take that player anyway and make sure they're getting group buffs. If they don't know what they're doing their build wont work. 

2. Rangers and thieves serve the theme for zerging by killing loads of people trying to zerg. Like half of this forum is the fall out of that fact. If you have Leaps to stagger out, even a Deadeye with moderate stats can hang with the zerg. Specter is awesome and at home in blob fights, put them on driver or support security, but if you're gonig to try to put them in the back of the squad bus with another thief and ranger, just boot them so they can find a legit group to help. 

If you're short on slots though, definitely take whatever over any thief at least. At that point you got the numbers to really ride off the meta builds. I don't feel my thief's mitigation or kill power change much in group and I usually feel like I get more done out of group because of the trajectory of Control skills and so I'm not a dot on the map that's squireling around for the commander to stress about.

Edited February 21, 2023 by kash.9213