Pvp not playable while Nade Scrapper remains this way [Merged]

[DanSH.6143]

Still perma super speed with 360 nade spam that hits like single target melee bursts of other specs. Melees can't touch this spec, it melts anything. This playstyle is oppressive and annoying. It deserves another hit.

[TomUjain.8206]

No.

 

Play it, before you start bashing on it. It has 3 sec of super speed (per gyro) and even if you max out the skills with just gyros - it still wouldn't be 'perma super speed'

 

As I pointed out in another thead, these builds all run zerker amulet with no stability and one stun break - it is very, very weak to condi (has no clenses) and can be CC'ed into the ground. To add, it will never be in the meta because it has huge flaws and can be burst down very quickly.

 

We need to stop this witch hunt, calling for nerfs every time we come up against something we don't like - this isn't the way forward.

[Kodama.6453]

Really wonder why people keep struggling against this build. Most of the time, when I see a scrapper they are actually free fodder once properly focused.

[shion.2084]

I think the issue is two coordinated ones.  You’d have the ability to extend the superspeed if two ran in a group and offset wasted their gyros.  and a coordinated stealth burst with two of them slightly offset would be hard to stop.  They would also do hood damage to an area, so if your opponents are clustered.

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

13 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Really wonder why people keep struggling against this build. Most of the time, when I see a scrapper they are actually free fodder once properly focused.

You seem familiar with engineers...hmmm...dunno why but you seem to know a lot about engis...🧐

[jdawgie.1835]

6 hours ago, DanSH.6143 said:

Still perma super speed with 360 nade spam that hits like single target melee bursts of other specs. Melees can't touch this spec, it melts anything. This playstyle is oppressive and annoying. It deserves another hit.

No it doesnt - Scrapper will kill you if you let it, but if you are aware of your surroundings, and can kite literally at all, you will blow a scrapper out of the stratosphere. I am not roasting you, but I am going to continue to be vocal on these forums about the amount of feedback that is given on a loop - that is clearly because people dont know what they're playing against.

I had two matches today where people were upset with Scrapper and its because they waltzed into Mid with the other team stealthed by gyro and their two scrappers popped out and memed the entire node. However - Every single person who died deserved it. You saw them disappear off the mini map right before entering mid and sat there waiting to get blown up. I say all this because of my attempt to give you advice:

Advice:

• Watch your mini map if their icon disappears there stealthed (its criminal how underused to minimap is and it would seem obvious to have this information already but large majority of pvpers dont ever use it)
• If the scrapper you are engaging stealth's either from his own kit our an ally's move tf outa the way until hes visible or attempt a counter attack. They eat as much damage as they put out.
• Once you begin applying damage dont let up on pressure. As a previous person wrote: 

6 hours ago, TomUjain.8206 said:

these builds all run zerker amulet with no stability and one stun break - it is very, very weak to condi (has no clenses) and can be CC'ed into the ground. To add, it will never be in the meta because it has huge flaws and can be burst down very quickly

Edited March 27, 2023 by jdawgie.1835

[Stalima.5490]

4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Really wonder why people keep struggling against this build. Most of the time, when I see a scrapper they are actually free fodder once properly focused.

The reason is because the scrapper is able to execute over 20k damage straight out of stealth which is enough to take down basically anyone who is not using a high vitality or toughness setup, you won't always be able to hit an invuln if you are not expecting it and will still be severely disadvantaged even if you do as the scrapper will likely hit most of it and generally has allies able to attack you on top of their own damage.

[ventress.4879]

Scrapper is a liability sure it can one shot people but that about all it can do. Most of the time they just dance around a point and won't commit to anything since they will fall over if anyone focuses them. It has a very similar playstyle to Soulbeast. 

[semak.7481]

7 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Really wonder why people keep struggling against this build. Most of the time, when I see a scrapper they are actually free fodder once properly focused.

2 Scrappers won mAT ~500-90. How free fodder x2 can win mAT? Their team won the game 3x5? :)

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its very clear the grenade skill is the issue. Its not even the first time, that skill has resulted in similar builds at least twice in the history of the game, although those required Holosmith to pull off effectively.

 

Just delete the skill and move on. Its RNG so its not even heavily used outside of this build.

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

Just delete the skill and move on. Its RNG so its not even heavily used outside of this build.

Deleting a skill has never been an option, nor will it ever be.

If grenade damage really is a problem, then there is no way around reworking the grenade kit, tho. Damage is almost all the kit does provide, so if it doesn't deal damage, what are you even using it for?

Then there is also the fact that anet mentioned they still plan to rework gyros to be stationary instead of travelling with the scrapper... so dunno, maybe if they finally go through with this rework, the problem will fix itself. That build might be already taken care of with all the gyros being stationary (especially sneak gyro).

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Deleting a skill has never been an option, nor will it ever be.

If grenade damage really is a problem, then there is no way around reworking the grenade kit, tho. Damage is almost all the kit does provide, so if it doesn't deal damage, what are you even using it for?

Then there is also the fact that anet mentioned they still plan to rework gyros to be stationary instead of travelling with the scrapper... so dunno, maybe if they finally go through with this rework, the problem will fix itself. That build might be already taken care of with all the gyros being stationary (especially sneak gyro).

The burst isn't coming from the Grenade Kit, but its toolbelt and heal skill which lobs a bunch of grenades everywhere. The nature of this skill means that if you're really close to the enemy, especially in a confined space, they almost always hit and you'll shave 75% of the health off a target running a vitality amulet.

 

Every build that's taken grenade kit has relied on the same entrance attack since way back near the launch of Path of Fire when Holosmith was introduced, Scrapper stealth just makes it worse.

 

The Grenade Kit itself is fine.

Edited March 27, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Frequency.6407]

Scrapper is meta now. Can we say that only skilled players play scrapper, just like cata.

[Kodama.6453]

27 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

The burst isn't coming from the Grenade Kit, but its toolbelt and heal skill which lobs a bunch of grenades everywhere. The nature of this skill means that if you're really close to the enemy, especially in a confined space, they almost always hit and you'll shave 75% of the health off a target running a vitality amulet.

 

Every build that's taken grenade kit has relied on the same entrance attack since way back near the launch of Path of Fire when Holosmith was introduced, Scrapper stealth just makes it worse.

 

The Grenade Kit itself is fine.

The removal of the grenade barrage on heal skill is the only thing I agree should just get removed. Never made sense in the first place, your healing skill suddenly becomes a bursting tool. Honestly, the whole grenadier trait should get reworked. The velocity increase should be made baseline (because it is basically mandatory in PvP,  making it bad design) and we get something else entirely in it's place.

Grenade barrage should stay, imo.

[Kstyle.5829]

15 hours ago, DanSH.6143 said:

Still perma super speed with 360 nade spam that hits like single target melee bursts of other specs. Melees can't touch this spec, it melts anything. This playstyle is oppressive and annoying. It deserves another hit.

I hate to say this, but the truth is you're just bad at the game.  Anybody that complains about horrible builds like this exposes themself.  And I have no horse in this race, I don't play this build because it's just a bad build.  

 

If you look at all the patch notes you'll see scrapper has literally only been nerffed for 2 years straight.  It's objectively worse than it was years ago, and everybody knew scrapper was bad then.  The only reason why people are dying is because burst damage as a whole is getting to a ridiculous level.  So people are running horrible PVE builds like this grenade scrapper that don't work at high level play.  Having zero sustain an 1 stunbreak doesn't work, and if you watch top streamers you won't see them playing this.

 

The kind of people who die to these builds are playing reactively.  They don't know every class ability in the game and every ability for every class down to muscle memory so that 100% of their focus can go to reading their opponent.  You should be playing predictively, and if you do that its laughably easy to beat a 1 shot meme build like this.   But if you're playing reactively by the time you reacted to the huge damage you took, now you're just panicking instead of going in on the scrapper and killing him.  Classic newb mistake.

 

But fear not... ANET loves their noobs.  They will just probably completely remove scrapper as a whole from PVP rather than nerf this one build.  That's their approach.  Noobs cry, ANET just removes the class from PVP.  the noobs cry about another class.  Rather than playing every class in the game... or at least the ones you have trouble with... just whine about them instead of learning how to counter it.  And ANET will nurse their babies.  What do I care.. after almost a decade of watching competitive PVP get destroyed by their catering to casuals I don't even log on anymore.  

[Terrorhuz.4695]

It will take some more years before we actually figure out that FACING REQUIREMENTS ON SKILLS THAT HIT ONE TARGET and NO FACING REQUIREMENT ON SKILLS THAT HIT MANY TARGETS is... not the greatest idea.

[roederich.2716]

- reduce radius of the gyros - the maps we play on havent been reworked since the start and this huge mobile aoe like it is also on catalyst is just not suitable for the small node, stairs and hallways.

- if blast gyro doesnt hit an opponent the scrapper shall damage himself like it is in overcharge on holo.

if you need scrapper to stay in gold then you can also uninstall the game as you have no ambitions to even get better and are just messing around for nonsense.

[GuriGashi.5617]

Seen you yesterday in HotM and we had a pretty cool conversation :v 

Edited March 27, 2023 by GuriGashi.5617

[Cuks.8241]

20 hours ago, TomUjain.8206 said:

To add, it will never be in the meta because it has huge flaws and can be burst down very quickly.

So a spec that just won MAT with 2x representation on the winning team is not meta? 

[AlPower.2476]

Playing Scrapper (non even glass cannon nade build) from 2 years to 3 months ago.

Ranked Teammates: Why u on Scrapper, swap to Holo, etc.

Unranked today with the class barely touched since then: omg what a noob, uses a Scrapper (again, non even glass cannon grenadier, stronger skill deals 7k damage but has low mele range and high cd; but the fact that people don't know how to play propely then thinks that you're one shoting them while you are using a kit swapping combo like wrench 5, wrench 3, hammer 5, hammer 2 and then elixir gun 5).

 

Gonna say it again: How to fix Scrapper (nerf Grenaders abusers but keep Normal Scrapper or Core users HAPPY)

• Anet should nerf Stealth Damage for ALL CLASSES; adding a debuff (1 sec per pulse while you're stealthed) that makes impossible to deal any critical damage. So even for classes that uses lots of skills (like Scrapper grenades that are like 3 hits per use, or more from toolbelt grenade; or Chrono burst spams) still can't one shot 'cause they should wait 1 sec when out of stealth. This will hit that annoying Virtuoso either.
• With this nerf, then they could give us back the 60 secs CD Sneak Gyro as a disengage skill as it always should have been. 
• Sneak Gyro: Personal Stealth option; removing stealth share. They could give the allies a blindness aura for 3 secs maybe. Remove smoke field but add Stealth time for the Scrapper.
• Nerfing grenades power coefficent (almost to 0) and buff conditions on them for Core Condi users.
• ^ Reduce default launch speed like the trait, and rework the trait to improve conditions when choosen and remove grenade barrage on heal.
• Lower CD on Blast Gyro but make them blockable would be great eithe

With that, they're touching only that playstyle but not the entire spec. After that they could see that the class is not as strong as they thinks and then buff Hammer.

But we all know how Arena Net works; it gonna be: Sneak Gyro 90 secs cd, nerf even more super speed, giving us back again -180 vitality, etc. Nerfing all Scrapper builds, even the ones that has nothing to do with Glass Cannon Grenadier. But don't forget to buff Tempest, Holosmith and Virtuoso.

EDIT: Forgot to say that they could give Thief in a common trait line, in a default slot, not a selectable one
one, an option to remove that debuff. To me, even thieves shouldn't be able to crit while stealthed; but the class is based on that, so they need to fix the class first before they nerf stealth so hard on them.

Edited March 27, 2023 by AlPower.2476

[Zyreva.1078]

8 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

So a spec that just won MAT with 2x representation on the winning team is not meta? 

*on both winning teams.

 

Clearly just a PvE build that doesn't work at high lvl ...

[shion.2084]

10 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

Its very clear the grenade skill is the issue. Its not even the first time, that skill has resulted in similar builds at least twice in the history of the game, although those required Holosmith to pull off effectively.

 

Just delete the skill and move on. Its RNG so its not even heavily used outside of this build.

 Why would you say the grenade skill is the issue and not the stealth gyro.    Isn't the issue the stealth burst?   If you could see the scrapper coming... wouldn't you just CC it since it only has one stun break?  Or you know, put condi on it? Or shoot it with arrows from your soul beast? Or put up your reflect or......

I don't get that your conclusion is it's the grenades that's the problem.  I guarantee you that if I stealth burst you with blast, shredder, and tool kit, your gonna whine that tookit is the issue.

Edited March 27, 2023 by shion.2084

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

 Why would you say the grenade skill is the issue and not the stealth gyro.    Isn't the issue the stealth burst?   If you could see the scrapper coming... wouldn't you just CC it since it only has one stun break?  Or you know, put condi on it? Or shoot it with arrows from your soul beast? Or put up your reflect or......

I don't get that your conclusion is it's the grenades that's the problem.  I guarantee you that if I stealth burst you with blast, shredder, and tool kit, your gonna whine that tookit is the issue.

 

Here we go nerfing core skills because people cant react to a slower version of a thief gank. 

Just ask for stability instead. If they wont let you drop on them with no cc mitigation  either stab or condi shed should be the exchange.

[DanSH.6143]

title. games are won by number of scrappers on your team.

[bethekey.8314]

28 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

You do realize that the MAT winners from NA and EU both  ran 2 scrappers per team?  Calling someone "bad" because they're pointing out the obvious is both toxic and out of touch with reality.

You do realize full or near full Ele teams won multiple mATs before getting any substantial nerfs, right? Went on for months before any changes.

Scrapper was nerfed a month into its semi-prevalence. Before a "meta" even settled. Why? People exaggerating its impact and dismissing its counters. And it does have counters. Many. You know what didn't at all? Cata.

You do realize mAT winners could probably play any half decent spec and win vs most of you? The game isn't competitive anymore. It's a great noob killer spec.

You know whats toxic? Having a dedicated "nerf engi" troll poster necro 10 individual threads any time they want to draw attention from their class.

Give me a break.

Edited March 28, 2023 by bethekey.8314