SotO Is so good and People need to stop complaining

[Teknomancer.4895]

8 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

This has nothing to do with "losing" choices because it's a factually incorrect statement as the relic system gives you more choices.

For instance...I can now choose to take Rune of the Scholar with Relic of the Monk...or Rune of the Scholar with Relic of the Trooper...or I could take Rune of Leadership with Relic of Cerus, or Rune of the Brawler with Rune of Cerus and so on...that's 3900 possible choices I can make.

Being clear about the distinction between the relic system as a system, and wanting relic effects back is critical. I agree with your message though in full...giving players choices, but try not to misinterpret my actions.

The disconnect here is that you're arguing from STEM with numbers, and I'm arguing from the Humanities with meaning and value. We may be (I think) arguing toward similar points, but pointing out that mathematically there are more choices as a result of snapping off the top edge of certain runes, calling that bit a relic and jamming it into a new slot, doesn't get at the social aspect of what happened. I'm talking about the bits that got broken off and discarded from the people who were using those.

To a lot of players, that feels like theft (especially considering how expensive some of those runes were). Pointing out (accurately) that there are lots of new possible combinations doesn't fix the fact that the effects from the runes of the Mesmer, Mad King, Golemancer (and a rather long list of other MIAs) that people had chosen to use have been arbitrarily taken away without any hint of replacement. The player's choice in those cases was not merely taken away but actually invalidated, so of course people are going to be upset. Anything calling itself an MMO is by definition and design social. And numbers don't tell that story very well at all.

[Zzik.5873]

19 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

@LolzImSquishy.4978 I'm really glad you're enjoying SotO! I want to thank you for sharing that you like the expansion--the good feedback is necessary to hear so we know what people like and want more of, plus I'm gonna be real honest: It's fun to read. 🙂 

Criticism is absolutely needed as well though--it's part of how we keep making the game better and better--so I also want to thank those of you who are taking your time to constructively outline what you want to see improved, and let you know that I am continuing to read through a lot of feedback and pass it to various teams. I appreciate all of you who are contributing constructively! 

I just want my golem baaaaaaackkkk!!!!! He dont like to be shutdown!!!! D':

-sad asura noise-

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Those legitimate complaints need to also be tempered against variables players will not be made aware of like some of the things behind the scenes game developed. You can still find something unacceptable (for example the new dailies) but included in that assessment should be wonderings of their manpower and resources. WOW does worse with considerably more so I can only imagine how much better Anet would be with more money.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.  The product is what it is and players will choose to buy it or not.  Putting out a weak product because you set a deadline you couldn't meet is not a sound strategy.

[Tiamat.8254]

5 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I like what they were trying to do with the relic system.  Uncoupling the 6th rune bonus from the passive stat bonuses is a good idea.  However, the execution is just...wow!  How did they screw this up so badly?  Why are there so few relics available on release?  Why are so many of them linked to elite/heal skill?  Why are those who owned legendary runes having to wait 6 months?  None of this should have happened.  If relics weren't ready then they should have been released 6 months from now.  As it stands they made a lot of useful effects simply disappear while also making the entire system less convenient especially for those who already invested heavily into legendary runes.  Let's just say that this ain't it, ANet.  Try harder.

It's like I said. It felt rushed. They sacrificed quality to get the expac released on time. It's not uncommon in games, but still frustrating. 

[Randulf.7614]

2 hours ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

Ooh while you are here can you look into the green mechanic on the soto champs, normally this is a stack mechanic but nothing is working, could be bugged? 

It’s line of sight. Whenever I drop out of sight I take zero damage. It def needs a tooltip tho

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

4 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

The disconnect here is that you're arguing from STEM with numbers, and I'm arguing from the Humanities with meaning and value. We may be (I think) arguing toward similar points, but pointing out that mathematically there are more choices as a result of snapping off the top edge of certain runes, calling that bit a relic and jamming it into a new slot, doesn't get at the social aspect of what happened. I'm talking about the bits that got broken off and discarded from the people who were using those.

To a lot of players, that feels like theft (especially considering how expensive some of those runes were). Pointing out (accurately) that there are lots of new possible combinations doesn't fix the fact that the effects from the runes of the Mesmer, Mad King, Golemancer (and a rather long list of other MIAs) that people had chosen to use have been arbitrarily taken away without any hint of replacement. The player's choice in those cases was not merely taken away but actually invalidated, so of course people are going to be upset. Anything calling itself an MMO is by definition and design social. And numbers don't tell that story very well at all.

There's no disconnect...this is the entire point of my first comment to you, was to clarify that this is what you really are talking about... I requote what I said in my first comment to you : 

 

Just pointing out that if you intend to give good feedback, knowing the content of what you are saying actually matters.

what you actually want are the missing 60 rune effects…and you want the relic effects to be meaningful. As do I... it’s really that simple, because the current relic system does in fact give you exponentially more choices (3900 possible combinations). So spend your time critiquing the relic effects, and telling them to implement the rest of the expansion…not defending an old broken and frankly way more restrictive system.

There is an important reason why I am clarifying you...it's because like what was just stated, mathematically you would not be correct; because the number of choices that the new relic system allows for is far greater than the old rune system...so when you say "returning player choice" I'm clarifying that, what you ACTUALLY mean, because previous system has less player choice. Being clear about what you are saying is the difference between us getting 99 choices, or 9900 choices. So if you really are interested in player choice... then you wouldn't be arguing with me right now. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Marikus.1875]

This "expansion" is terrible.

[pallas.8150]

Honestly, I'm loving this expansion. To each their own, though.

[Celtic Lady.3729]

Yeah, I don't like the new dailies, either. There isn't enough variety in each category. There should be at least 4 dailies for each category instead of one. 2 weeklies for each category also feels insufficient. Getting everyone into the same map each day for events also helped make the game feel alive. My whole family could do dailies together. It was nice. I'm going to miss it. I wish they'd kept the former activities even if they changed the system. 

[Teknomancer.4895]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

There is an important reason why I am clarifying you...it's because like what was just stated, mathematically you would not be correct; because the number of choices that the new relic system allows for is far greater than the old rune system...so when you say "returning player choice" I'm clarifying that, what you ACTUALLY mean

Thank you for your walls of consistently condescending and pedantic tl;dr, but I don't need your "clarifying," "correcting" or telling me what I "actually" mean. Do you just not get how presumptuous and rude that is? This is going nowhere, we're done here.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

46 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Thank you for your walls of consistently condescending and pedantic tl;dr, but I don't need your "clarifying," "correcting" or telling me what I "actually" mean. Do you just not get how presumptuous and rude that is? This is going nowhere, we're done here.

Yea when stuff you say is incorrect, that is like I said, the difference between getting a message that reads "I want 99 choices" to a message that reads "I want 9900 choices."

Imagine you are lost on the road somewhere...your trying to get back to Route 66, and you pull up to me, a gas station clerk for some assistance, and I tell you "Route 66...it's about a mile from here in that direction." when in actuality it was nine thousand miles from there in that direction...You would have wanted more clarification from that clerk wouldn't you.

Imagine going up to the clerk and the clerk tells you how rude you are for correcting him.

Edited August 25, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Ashantara.8731]

I composed a separate thread, because I wanted for @Rubi Bayer.8493 to see this and pass the feedback along:

 

[Sylvyn.4750]

43 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Yea when stuff you say is incorrect, that is like I said, the difference between getting a message that reads "I want 99 choices" to a message that reads "I want 9900 choices."

Imagine you are lost on the road somewhere...your trying to get back to Route 66, and you pull up to me, a gas station clerk for some assistance, and I tell you "Route 66...it's about a mile from here in that direction." when in actuality it was nine thousand miles from there in that direction...You would have wanted more clarification from that clerk wouldn't you.

Imagine going up to the clerk and the clerk tells you how rude you are for correcting him.

Considering most of the DPS players I've talked to are going with Relic of the Thief as it is clearly meta compared to the rest of the power relics, how does that really give us much of a choice, since most of the other relics are way below it in value?  Reminds me of how skyscale rose to the top of the mount heap...if you had to chose just one for the rest of the life of the game, do you really have a choice?

[willow.8209]

On 8/23/2023 at 1:32 PM, Randulf.7614 said:

There's a lot of hyperbole. But behind it there are genuine concerns. It's the internet, people go over the top. Doesn't mean they aren't right either

So, no people shouldn't stop complaining. But yes SoTo has some good stuff in it that risks being overlooked. I certainly approve of the message that there is some hard work and quality in the content side of things

agreed

[willow.8209]

On 8/23/2023 at 6:37 PM, Sylvyn.4750 said:

This is where many would disagree with you...they only gave us hints and teases of what was to come, so how can you say "they told us?"  If Anet did a better job of communicating in advance the details of what was coming, it wouldn't be such a shock, but they chose to keep things, well, secretive and obscure.  The picture of the Wizard's Vault they released last week did not give one the impression that you were locked into a small set of dailies that you had to complete in full or get the angry cook saying "No soup for you!"  Nowhere was that communicated.  Similarly, I have yet to find ANYONE that can definitively say or prove what the 1,300 total means at the top corner of the vault screen as it gives no further explanation.  Is that a daily cap, weekly cap, or is that a running cap that forces you to spend down your points as you go rather than try to hoard more than 1,300?  Anet hasn't said one word on that...again, secretive and obscure.  Most are happy about the choice and generosity of rewards...it's just the lack of choice in getting to those rewards.

i generally agree but I think I did read something that said this is a cap of how many astrals you can have at one time. You hit that, you have to spend down to get more. 

[willow.8209]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:13 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

A lot of the complaints aren't even about Soto, but about system changes they added with soto release. People didn't even need to touch Soto yet -I didn't- and yet they are already affected by the changes.

agreed.

though i did TP to friend for one of the dailies yesterday. i'm just not doing dailies today they're awful choices for me.

[Zoid.2568]

The story was the best thing of soto.

[Hattarx.5947]

My daily PvE, looted 10 defetead enemies, complete a renown heart, defeat 5 veteran players. All done in Queensdale with a lvl 80 character. I basically went back to doing things I did 10 years ago. I remain of my opinion this new daily as well as the introduction of relics are to be kind completely useless. Then I also liked the SOTO story, but I really can't understand how you always ruin good expansions by putting perfectly useless things in them.

[sambal.6038]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:53 PM, LolzImSquishy.4978 said:

It's the same thing every expac. People get hype, buy it, play it, and then when things change they cry. "Oh I don't like it its new and it ruins the game". No, nothing they've done has ruined the game. Your builds aren't all special anymore? Ooof I guess? I also worked hundreds of hours on builds. I'll work on them some more to see what works! Dailies changed? Who cares? The new system is cool, I like it, and it doesn't feel bad. So many people mad about changes THEY TOLD US ABOUT. They told us and y'all are mad? SotO is SO GOOD. EoD was SO GOOD. Why can't people play the game without complaining about every last thing. Every expac I have to block SO many people. Because instead of letting us enjoy the game, SOME are determined to ram into our brains that Anet is bad and its all garbage. AGREE TO DISAGREE. It's been amazing and I can't wait to see what comes next. Shush haters. Let Anet pump out more garbage if thats what this is because I'm loving it all 😄
Thank you Anet for your hard work and dedication to this game. For some of us, we see you and that love. I feel bad for those who worked on it, who were excited about it and now are seeing the hate. PLEASE see this message from me as a love letter if you would and know that there are those who love this game and play it too. 

Just because you love new content doesn't mean everybody need love it too. You have right to enjoy the game your way as I have right to complain and NOT enjoy the new content. And i just don't care if you agree with me or not.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:53 PM, LolzImSquishy.4978 said:

SotO is SO GOOD. EoD was SO GOOD.

I agree on SotO, but EoD was a mess design-wise, and the writing was so-so regarding dialogue (there was some cringeworthy stuff).

Also, one needs to distinguish between all aspects of a release, otherwise feedback is pointless.
 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Ashantara.8731

[Linken.6345]

8 hours ago, Hattarx.5947 said:

My daily PvE, looted 10 defetead enemies, complete a renown heart, defeat 5 veteran players. All done in Queensdale with a lvl 80 character. I basically went back to doing things I did 10 years ago. I remain of my opinion this new daily as well as the introduction of relics are to be kind completely useless. Then I also liked the SOTO story, but I really can't understand how you always ruin good expansions by putting perfectly useless things in them.

How did you kill your fellow veteran players in queensdale if I may ask 😃

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 8/24/2023 at 3:20 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.  The product is what it is and players will choose to buy it or not.  Putting out a weak product because you set a deadline you couldn't meet is not a sound strategy.

You most certainly have the prerogative to not use critical thinking during an assessment. Also, that last sentence is interesting because unless you work there you wouldn't know they set a deadline they couldn't meet which is exactly what my original point is- there is so much more you do not know and will never know SO wacha gona do about it?

[Ashen.2907]

20 hours ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

Considering most of the DPS players I've talked to are going with Relic of the Thief as it is clearly meta compared to the rest of the power relics, how does that really give us much of a choice, since most of the other relics are way below it in value?  Reminds me of how skyscale rose to the top of the mount heap...if you had to chose just one for the rest of the life of the game, do you really have a choice?

Ultimately meaningless choices are not really choices. I mean if someone faced a, supposed, "choice," between having their near to burting appendix removed and taking their coach's advice to stop being a wimp and just walk it off...do they really have two choices? No, of course not.

What the relic system does is change the best choice, not expand meaningful choices. And, since some meaningful choices have been removed, some playstyles end up with fewer choices.

Previously, for example, those who enjoyed pet/minion style gameplay had three classes (I dont really consider mesmer illusions to be quite the same thing as ranger pets, mechanist mech, and necro minions) plus multiple runes with summons attached. Now that playstyle has only the three classes. 

My own favorite (OW) playstyle, alpha strike burst damage dealer, is not supported by the relic system even though it was under the previous rune system. Thief runes damage bonus kicks in AFTER my alpha strike so I am largely operating without the benefit of a relic despite having one slotted.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[RespiteRau.2075]

I do have to say that every multiplayer game I've played, there is always a massive uproar in community forums after every change to the game. A lot of people hate having their routines changed--the "who moved my cheese!?!" phenomenon. Are there things I miss about the pre-SotO system? Sure, I'm one of those people who loved a rune set that isn't very popular that had an oddball 6th slot (Rune of Ogre, it spawned a rock dog when you were hit). It's gone, and I miss my bonus pets. But there are lots of good things about the update! The settings are beautiful and cool. The story is engaging. And being forced to reconsider your builds is a useful exercise. Flexibility and adapting to changed circumstances is also good for people. Sure, there are bugs--it's annoying, but also inevitable with a new launch. We got new content at a reasonable price, and I'm going to enjoy that!

[Tony.8659]

I just feel indifferent about it right now (that might change). I been here since the first public beta back in April 2012, and over the years I think GW2 has just become a bit bloated, with all these currencies, mastery points, and a lot of up and down maps (I kinda like maps that focus more on one or 2 levels). I think my fav expansion was PoF back in 2017 that's when we finally had mounts.