SOTO writing is great and is on right direction. [spoilers] [Merged]

[ugrakarma.9416]

(warning : this post can contain spoilers about Secret of the Obscure).

in SOTO they "fixed" old problems:

comedy level: The history is very serious, near to 0 teenager jokes, i think the "game changer" is the writers getting ride of our "companions", the trivial conversations between dragon watch members were the biggest source of slapstick comedy.

mystery: the absency of mystery was a big problem in EoD, i have played as if i know everything was about to happen. Soo Won get a very anti-climatic reveal: remember that Water Dragon was a source of mystery and speculation for years. In SotO, we have mysteries again and we don't know what will happen one step further. Even with the auto-spoil of the product's marketing, announcing that we would team up with wizards or that Zojja will be there.

villain build up: combat the "void" is like combat nucler radiation, or mend tornado destruction. Now we have real villains again.

 things that i not liked, must should be avoided in the future, but forgivable for now.:

- any sort of multidimension, time travel, yeah i mean the fractal thing.

- you get ride of communicator, but put telepathy instead, the result is the same, do you really believe that u need voices of absent entitys talking to us everytime?

[Luthan.5236]

I have only played it up to chapter 7/8. So far I think it is better than EoD. Can reach the level of the stuff before EoD again I guess. Setting seems cool and the Kryptis are more interesting enemies. Especially Peitha seems interesting - where you early hear the voice and know she has to be a Kryptis cause ... it is obvious and then they even throw some additional hints into it to hint further at it.

What I dislike a bit is the way of story-telling/narration itself. I want to go straight into the setting ... and then experience it in-depth. What they did: Pretty long proloque thing where are in that first building a lot (where it is burning) - that was tooo lengthy. Then when we are outside ... it feels rushed. Would have prefered to get into the map directly - to talk with someone. (Burning buildings stuff saved for later.) And then more info on Zojja. First in the wizard tower and later where we need to find Mabon - we get a bit more info in her and in the wizard tower mission it was optional (having to read the journals and stuff after the mission was over - when staying in the instance ... or stopping at them while the NPC were running towards the fight).

That stuff was well made though. Also with Dagda and some person that left (named sounded like a Kodan). Peitha the most interesting so far though. Seems like a Kryptis that wants to use "me" (the commander) to fight vs Eparch guy to get the control over the other Kryptis for herself. Only question is: Will she immediately turn against us then - or can she be reasoned with and will leave with the Kryptis to go somewhere else.

I strongly dislike the rifts as grindy stuff game-play wise. Out of the story blockers we had before (get a mastery first to progress or so some event to progress) those were boring/annoying. To have to fly around multiple times. (Not all the time the red circle appeared immediately in the mini map and I had to really fly a long way towards the direction of the visible effect of the Heart of the Obscure scan skill.) Probably doing that stuff only unil the main achievements are completed. (My guess is it will be the stuff you have to grind out for legendary armor - the new one. Avoiding that.) Might be annoying to play the story on a 2nd char cause of thit. The better (or less bad) it is the more fast paced and "smoother" I want to enjoy it. With less of those stuff to block progress.

With all the additional skyscale masteries unlocked it might get faster to to that mandatory rift stuff though. We'll see.

[Trejgon.9367]

7 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

you get ride of communicator, but put telepathy instead, the result is the same, do you really believe that u need voices of absent entitys talking to us everytime?

I think communicator is there specifically because long range telepathy is something wizards do, and "the team" is full of not wizards 😉

[Eekasqueak.7850]

16 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

I think communicator is there specifically because long range telepathy is something wizards do, and "the team" is full of not wizards 😉

Replied in the wrong place

Edited August 25, 2023 by Eekasqueak.7850

[Trejgon.9367]

Just now, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Not from another world just mostly wiped out in a previous dragon cycle IIRC. 

I have no idea what did you mean here. My point was that the communicator dragon's watch ex-members are using were invented because most in not all of it's members did not posses the ability to use telepathy over the distance that dragon watch was constantly spreading itself.

And on a side note, the wizards in the expac alter commanders communicator to pick up their astral telepathy line, which implies that we lack ability of just tapping into it naturally as well.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Just now, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

I have no idea what did you mean here. My point was that the communicator dragon's watch ex-members are using were invented because most in not all of it's members did not posses the ability to use telepathy over the distance that dragon watch was constantly spreading itself.

And on a side note, the wizards in the expac alter commanders communicator to pick up their astral telepathy line, which implies that we lack ability of just tapping into it naturally as well.

I hit backspace snd replied to the wrong comment my bad. 

[EdwinLi.1284]

I am honestly a bit curious about a lot of things in the story but the story has been decent so far despite being split into 4 updates this time.

Galrath and his story about how he ended up becoming a member of the Wizard's court is something I am very interested in but most likely just a side story thing as we progress.

Last time we saw him was a one time side quest Boss in GW1 and we killed him to prevent him from obtaining the secrets to Wizard's Tower for whatever reasons he was doing so which we did not get much information about since we could only guess he was either a member of the White Mantle or a Rogue Lionguard. 

Now he is back as a Undead (he was revived as a Undead sometime after during GW1 from what we know so far off screen) and officially a member of the Wizard's Court protecting Tyria from any Mist Demon invasions. He is even still wearing his armor from GW1 but now rusted due to the time jump to GW2 time.

Edited August 25, 2023 by EdwinLi.1284

[Nosrorav.4703]

10 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

- any sort of multidimension, time travel, yeah i mean the fractal thing.

- you get ride of communicator, but put telepathy instead, the result is the same, do you really believe that u need voices of absent entitys talking to us everytime?

• Fractals are fine, imo, because they're just very limited "what if" scenarios. Basically Star Trek's holodeck for all intents and purposes, but fantasy style; usually fake but sometimes becomes real. There is no multidimension (though such does exist in canon lore to explain WvW) and there is no time travel (which is canonically impossible atm).
• As you say "the result is the same" if you swap the communicator for telepathy. And SotO has both, and it's clear that there is a very in-universe distinction between the two on both a narrative and character level. Telepathy is literally "in your head" and no one else can hear it, so responding to telepathy in company makes you seem... a bit looney. It's also something done only by very morally questionable characters, such as demons, Elder Dragons, and fallen gods. Good guys would not only be hesitant to use it, but to trust anyone who does use it. Basically it wouldn't make any sense for anyone but very trusted companions to be in telepathy with each other. And ultimately, it has the exact same negative effects on any storytelling narrative. Not to mention that at this point we've canonically upgraded from walky talkies over a two-way radio call, to literally cellphones with answering machines. It'll be bizarre for them to just toss that aside all of a sudden. Not to mention that with everyone having the chance of using a communicator, it means higher tension when someone is suddenly out of contact. So there's really no reason to make this swap at this point - it's there, and bar the entire magitech system becoming destroyed and asuran and Canthan civilizations being annihilated in some armageddon, communicators are going to remain.

[ugrakarma.9416]

43 minutes ago, Nosrorav.4703 said:

•  
• As you say "the result is the same" if you swap the communicator for telepathy. And SotO has both, and it's clear that there is a very in-universe distinction between the two on both a narrative and character level. 

Anyway they need get rid of it. let us be more alone.

We don't need anyone "guiding" us, this is just signal of influence of too much american series, wheres theres need of a "commando" like hero, guided by some sort "intel control center".

[Ashantara.8731]

I also think the writing in this expansion is top-notch. 🥰 Characters are well written, dialogue is excellent, the story's pacing is perfect.

[trunks.5249]

i liked it has well. that being said i think they dropped the ball on how the commander handled the voices. simple fact is if it had been anyone else the commander would be mad that they didnt tell us

Edited August 25, 2023 by trunks.5249

[Blur.3465]

13 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

(warning : this post can contain spoilers about Secret of the Obscure).

in SOTO they "fixed" old problems:

comedy level: The history is very serious, near to 0 teenager jokes, i think the "game changer" is the writers getting ride of our "companions", the trivial conversations between dragon watch members were the biggest source of slapstick comedy.

mystery: the absency of mystery was a big problem in EoD, i have played as if i know everything was about to happen. Soo Won get a very anti-climatic reveal: remember that Water Dragon was a source of mystery and speculation for years. In SotO, we have mysteries again and we don't know what will happen one step further. Even with the auto-spoil of the product's marketing, announcing that we would team up with wizards or that Zojja will be there.

villain build up: combat the "void" is like combat nucler radiation, or mend tornado destruction. Now we have real villains again.

 things that i not liked, must should be avoided in the future, but forgivable for now.:

- any sort of multidimension, time travel, yeah i mean the fractal thing.

- you get ride of communicator, but put telepathy instead, the result is the same, do you really believe that u need voices of absent entitys talking to us everytime?

Absolutely summarizes my thoughts too!

100% agree with you!

[Shining One.1635]

This is a huge improvement over End of Dragons! I didn't Alt+Tab once out of the game once while playing through this story. I lost count of how many times I did that during End of Dragons. I expect I'll have all five of my characters through the story by the end of the month.... something that took 18 months for End of Dragons. I had to "force" myself to do it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

8 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Anyway they need get rid of it. let us be more alone.

We don't need anyone "guiding" us, this is just signal of influence of too much american series, wheres theres need of a "commando" like hero, guided by some sort "intel control center".

Sure but how would players know where to go? The entire plot of Guild Wars 2 is the Commander assisting or working with others, as is how 90% of RPGs go, and involve someone telling the player character where to go and why. So there needs to be some kind of communication. You can't just get rid of it, because the only way to then direct the player is to have the PC talk to themselves and literally break the fourth wall to tell the player where to go, or to simply not have a primary narrative.

And to be honest, means of instant communication is NOT an "American series" thing, it's a universal modern storytelling thing that is common because the idea of not having a means of instant or near instant communication is weird to people these days.This video covers the topic quite well imo. That said, the Commander isn't really "being guided by some sort of intel control center", even in the most directive manner, which was Season 3 when it was just introduced. At least, no more than the Commander was before the communicator - just that back then ArenaNet used the mail system to direct players.

Remember how at the beginning of every LWS1 and LWS2 episode, the player got a mail to tell them to go to X location? Remember how this was done almost all the time in the personal story too, between chapters? Yeah. We didn't have the communicator but we still had the communicator. The function of the process never changed, just the means of delivery (and, especially in S3 and IBS, the amount of usage for it).

[Shiyo.3578]

22 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

comedy level: The history is very serious, near to 0 teenager jokes, i think the "game changer" is the writers getting ride of our "companions", the trivial conversations between dragon watch members were the biggest source of slapstick comedy.

Yeah it's nice, EOD's marvel writing was atrocious and I'm glad they stopped.

[Bast.7253]

Agreed. So many good decisions this time around and it was so much more engaging than EoD. 

My only criticism is I'm not sure how I would feel if Mabon wasn't a Mursaat or Dagda wasn't a Jotun. I think that naturally made me a bit more interested in their characters. Their history and the things they could have seen that are so much higher out of scope of what the commander has seen. So much history we have the potential to learn from them. 

In general, paying homage to so many old storylines in a satisfying way was what made it so much better for me. The elder races, the amusing terminator-esque take on Jade Tech (small and cliche but fun), the facets, revisiting of the Scepter of Orr, Orr itself, the shadowstone, Isgarren and the seers. 

Still a bit upset they didn't have a living Lupi off channeling a spell in a part of the wizard's tower though. 

The demons' voices are a little strange. I guess demons just have an extended pause after every word as part of their dialect?

Having to chase rifts in between story steps isn't ideal as I think, for these two releases I would have rather have a heart at each bastion/fractal island that I could have completed some/all of to fill a bar. Something to also learn more about the area/npc's involved and a way to slide in some neat cosmetics/toys/armor as additional rewards.

There are a ton of neat little details and things that touch on so many different aspects of the game's story and fun little easter eggs. 
I don't know who ??? is in the abandoned lab in Archipelego but I'm sure it would be interesting to someone else. I don't think we go here in the story do we? If not it's just a fun little detail someone threw in. 

Anyway - It may just be bias because so much of this has been stuff I've wanted them to touch on throughout the years in terms of lore, Tyria's history, etc - but I think overall the quality of the storytelling this expansion was better. At least much better balanced. 

Not totally sure I fully grasp the whole demons connected to emotions thing yet but I liked the mentioning of suspecting Khilbron's destruction of Orr was considered possible demon corruption but they mentioned it was proven to be Abaddon instead.

I like Isgarren's comment presumably eluding into being involved/responsible in some way of the exodus of the six due to the events of the Abaddon. (Though he also mentions wanting to avoid the ire of the six so I'm assuming he may have just been present, or watched them from afar somehow.)

Did they mention anything about the Eye of the North? I didn't catch anything but you'd think Isgarren would have had some info about it or there would be something in the Wizard's tower.

 


 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Bast.7253

[maxwelgm.4315]

On the matter of fractals, I'd like to point out that the commander is the one that first says "oh...so they are like fractals?" and only then the Wizards go on with this terminology, but here and there they still use the word "simulation" more specifically. I think Isgarren was creating pockets of the Mists in a way that's not really like the Fractal instances we go to. Some key differences are that the beings there are fully sentient and not just echoes of pasts and/or potentiality.  I think both the fact that Isgarren can simply create pocket dimensions and materialize them in reality and also the fact that our PC can only see this as being fractals was just the fastest way to show just how powerful the Wizard's court is,  and they might not dwell too much on it going forward. Showcasing Isgarren and the wizards as actually powerful is important since we just wrapped up our adventures as champions of an Elder Dragon - I strongly agree that it's good Kryptis and Wizards alike have their own motives and are not "forces of nature", but they couldn't be simple bandits and knights after the previous plot either.

[Kalavier.1097]

On 8/27/2023 at 10:56 PM, maxwelgm.4315 said:

On the matter of fractals, I'd like to point out that the commander is the one that first says "oh...so they are like fractals?" and only then the Wizards go on with this terminology, but here and there they still use the word "simulation" more specifically. I think Isgarren was creating pockets of the Mists in a way that's not really like the Fractal instances we go to. Some key differences are that the beings there are fully sentient and not just echoes of pasts and/or potentiality.  I think both the fact that Isgarren can simply create pocket dimensions and materialize them in reality and also the fact that our PC can only see this as being fractals was just the fastest way to show just how powerful the Wizard's court is,  and they might not dwell too much on it going forward. Showcasing Isgarren and the wizards as actually powerful is important since we just wrapped up our adventures as champions of an Elder Dragon - I strongly agree that it's good Kryptis and Wizards alike have their own motives and are not "forces of nature", but they couldn't be simple bandits and knights after the previous plot either.

The reports you can read bring up how they basically start spawning these to test out what-if situations, like "What if Balthazar won?" or such, and see how bad the worst case situation is.

The problem is that due to the mess up in the spire/Wizard tower and the protective shields, a few of them ended up accidentally turning into reality and spawning off the coast of the Maguuma's Horn, where you can see the Beacon of Ages is just above water level actually part of the main landmass.

[Infinity.2876]

R'tchikk and Gladium are my absolute favorite characters.

I haven't made it past the first map but so far the righting is on point.

The dialogue in the meta is a little bit hard to understand and at times it feels a little too metaphorical. Also, that entire first instance is a slog. Especially when you are in the demon realm.

However, I do like that the commander is not the center of attention and so far, I am enjoying the story.

[Kalavier.1097]

I really enjoyed Gladium being the first npc explicitly mute and using sign language to communicate.

[Randulf.7614]

I’ve skipped the comments to avoid spoilers, but I at least wanted to chime in that so far it’s been excellent. A return to classic guild wars storytelling and a vast chasm in difference to Gyala which was a mess in plot, structure and storytelling via gameplay. This corrects those problems and elevates itself in the process, with decent dialogue as well. I think it helped ditching the legacy characters and their baggage for a bit. I find this crew more interesting to learn about right now.

I do think it’s a shame the dragon story was rushed through to its premature conclusion, but I have no complaints up to the Wizards Tower so far. The only feedback I have is the amount of lore journals there are. In themselves not an issue, but reading off a monitor is incredibly difficult. I’d like to see improvements to the text font and spacing to rectify this going forward. They are effective, but almost unreadable for people like me

[Blur.3465]

I agree with Randulf.
This new crew just makes me wanna get rid of the old one. A lot more mature and way more interesting characters than the previous crew. Just through this single expansion I got to like every single one of them. 

Definitely a step in the right direction when it comes to characters and storytelling. And yes, this entire expansion gave me some heavy Guild Wars 1 vibes in terms of storytelling and lore!

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 8/25/2023 at 12:03 PM, Nosrorav.4703 said:

Fractals are fine, imo, because they're just very limited "what if" scenarios. Basically Star Trek's holodeck for all intents and purposes, but fantasy style; usually fake but sometimes becomes real.

I was thinking the same, but there's more Trek influence to be found. The story is basically, Borg are beaming into the holodeck and the safeties are off. The voice is the Borg Queen, gaslighting you and messing with your head. The Kryptis are of course drones, possession is assimilation, etc.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I’ve skipped the comments to avoid spoilers, but I at least wanted to chime in that so far it’s been excellent. A return to classic guild wars storytelling and a vast chasm in difference to Gyala which was a mess in plot, structure and storytelling via gameplay. This corrects those problems and elevates itself in the process, with decent dialogue as well. I think it helped ditching the legacy characters and their baggage for a bit. I find this crew more interesting to learn about right now.

I do think it’s a shame the dragon story was rushed through to its premature conclusion, but I have no complaints up to the Wizards Tower so far. The only feedback I have is the amount of lore journals there are. In themselves not an issue, but reading off a monitor is incredibly difficult. I’d like to see improvements to the text font and spacing to rectify this going forward. They are effective, but almost unreadable for people like me

Having just finished the story now, I fully agree with pretty much the entire post here.

Definitely a very huge improvement over... honestly, all of GW2. I would by far rank SotO the best story release of GW2 by far. The depressing chasm of Champions, EoD, and What Lies Within having been crossed, and I do not regret having purchased SotO. I hope that the three content updates maintain this quality.

56 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

I was thinking the same, but there's more Trek influence to be found. The story is basically, Borg are beaming into the holodeck and the safeties are off. The voice is the Borg Queen, gaslighting you and messing with your head. The Kryptis are of course drones, possession is assimilation, etc.

I very much disagree here. I am not a huge Trek fan but there are very, very notable differences in behavior between kryptis and borg, or our female voice friend (censored for anyone not finished) and the Borg Queen.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[phandaria.4891]

The Good

1. No more Taimi's asspull-invented solutions. And please don't make Zojja do similar thing.

On 8/25/2023 at 12:35 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

comedy level: The history is very serious, near to 0 teenager jokes, i think the "game changer" is the writers getting ride of our "companions", the trivial conversations between dragon watch members were the biggest source of slapstick comedy.

2. Definitely! Whole of Dragon's Watch is guilty of this. So cringy to listen to.

3. Peitha adds another layer of the story. The infighting happening within Kryptis and the mystery around her. Is she speaking the truth? Will she betray the Wayfinder? Very intriguing character and great to see that it's not simply Wizards vs Kryptis storyline.

 

The Bad

"That is Isgarren's preference". What a stupid way to acknowledge and address a plothole, when the Commander offered to bring an army to help them.

There is a simpler way to address this. Most humanoids are simply a fodder for demon, especially Kryptis, due to their emotions. To fight them, it requires a certain quality/strength of the soul/emotion which the Wizards or other Astral Warders can detect. Bringing an army will only feed and strengthen the Kryptis without any benefit. Logistic wise, Astral Ward has amassed more than enough supplies/weaponries/magical artifacts/knowledge in their millennia of existence that no other organization or country can fathom, hence there is no benefit from them bringing others in.

 

The Hope

On 8/25/2023 at 12:35 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

 Soo Won get a very anti-climatic reveal: remember that Water Dragon was a source of mystery and speculation for years. In SotO, we have mysteries again and we don't know what will happen one step further.

I always feel that every single story that Arenanet had, created a good build up, but the reveal and ending feel rushed and anticlimactic. They have built up amazing villains in the form of Elder Dragons, yet the ending feels, "That's it?". The only one I feel whose story explored enough is Kralkatorrik due to his relation to Aurene. Hopefully they can fully explore the Kryptis and Eparch this time.