Class fantasy, powercreep, build diversity and homogenization.

[Arthelad.5418]

I have some concerns for the what is going on with the balance of the game. I want to mention that this isn't intended to be a rant, but feedback and constructive criticism related to changes that might be bad for the overall enjoyment or potential of the combat system. This is purely my opinion on the matter.

-Damage builds are beginning to do 42k+ dps as a normality (when builds used to do ~35k dps).

-Essential boons have made the balancing of the meta a nightmare in the last years, rewarding a passive playstyle rather than an active playstyle. A lot of support builds can sometimes feel same-ish

-There are still many useless traits, skills and weapons, differing from class to class, with takes away from class fantasy and diversity of build.

-Unique buffs are getting rarer and rarer. While passive stat increases as they existed were a problem, they could have reworked them (and the useless traits mentioned previously) to traits that play into the classes' mechanics, ANet decided to make passive boon pulses that are pretty mediocre.

-There are classes that are now crossing mechanics, with no real distinguishing features. Necro and specter shrouds are basicly the same mechanic. Specter shroud could have given stealth and some boons when entering, with its duration being increased the more of the resource you had when entering, but just it feels like a suport based core necro shroud IMO. I'm not saying that specter isn't enjoyable, but that class fantasy feels like it it suffocating a bit. 

-Elite spec weapons are now usable on the other specs of the respective class. This change has had mostly good effects, if not losing another bit of elite spec identity. While it adds to the build diversity, it will make some weapons much more used, some weapons used relatively a same amount of times as other weapons and some weapons be used much less simply because the other weapon does .5-1k more dps. This change still needs time to play out properly

-Relic system removed a lot of rune effects and the ones that remained are a mixed bag between good and super niche.

Is it just me?

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

-There are classes that are now crossing mechanics, with no real distinguishing features. Necro and specter shrouds are basicly the same mechanic. Specter shroud could have given stealth and some boons when entering, with its duration being increased the more of the resource you had when entering, but just it feels like a suport based core necro shroud IMO. I'm not saying that specter isn't enjoyable, but that class fantasy feels like it it suffocating a bit. 

Working as intended. One of the things that was said back when elite specialisations were being first discussed around HoT was that some elite specialisations would essentially be the replacements for GW1's secondary profession system. Spectre is essentially thief/necro, guardian is guardian/ranger, spellbreaker was explicitly described as warrior/mesmer (it also feels a bit guardian-like, but that's largely because guardian itself is also somewhat in the concept space between mesmer and warrior), and so on.

[Dadnir.5038]

14 hours ago, Arthelad.5418 said:

Is it just me?

I do agree on some things and disagree on other.

Class fantasy is "ok" as it is now. All professions still feel different from each other even with their e-specs.

Damage powercreep is indeed and issue in PvE. Sustain powercreep is somewhat "ok" since competitive mode keep it in check closely and PvE meta still tend to shun survivability.

There is more than 10 time the Vanilla game build diversity just within what's considered meta. The range of builds that could be considered viable beyond that is probably close to 50 time what could have been viable in the vanilla game. The main brake to build diversity is that players tend to flock to what's advertised as "the best builds".

If you want the game to be balanced there is a need to homogenized. Ultimately for balance's sake, the theme of each profession is the only thing that need to be "unique".

[Alcatraznc.3869]

I really hate how they removed the passive stat increase on some trait to replace them with boons...boons that are already covered in pretty much all group comp. Being able to passively put out 5 might for 10 sec every 10 sec is nice until you notice some support can give out 25 might by themselve and some DPS can have 25 might stack by themselve.

 

 

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

15 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

If you want the game to be balanced there is a need to homogenized

If you have to rely on Homogenizing your game to achieve balanced, than you failed as a balance team. Plain and simple.

I have never seen a game where Homogenized balanced have a long term positive impact in a game. For the sake of "Diversity" You're not actually making diversity. All Homogenized balance does is make each class feel the same, and make certain classes less appealing than others. If the thematic of classes is the only thing that should be unique, we're in trouble.

Anet is walking the same path Zenimax walked when they were balancing Elder scrolls online. And Zenimax pissed off a LOT of folks when they homogenized their game.

[Burnfall.9573]

On 9/1/2023 at 3:35 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Working as intended. One of the things that was said back when elite specialisations were being first discussed around HoT was that some elite specialisations would essentially be the replacements for GW1's secondary profession system. Spectre is essentially thief/necro, guardian is guardian/ranger, spellbreaker was explicitly described as warrior/mesmer (it also feels a bit guardian-like, but that's largely because guardian itself is also somewhat in the concept space between mesmer and warrior), and so on.

Anet committed Profession Identity Theft and Hijack. Unlike Guild Wars; there is no statement in Anet Philosophy and Vision stating having a secondary profession available to a Profession.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Profession

So explain this to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpouEiN7a8g

 

Here is another video with Specter exceeding in conditions than a Necromancer Profession Identity and Role whose unique Role and Identity in specializing in conditions

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvCn4vQbDuw

 

How is that justified? 

Guild Wars secondary Profession would never out-perform a primary Profession attributes, skills, Identity and Role. 

Absolutely, no Assassin/Necro would never outperform a Necromancer Profession attributes, skills

Clearly you know that, Anet is Anti-Profession Diversity/Identity when they attacked Guild Wars - The Holy Trinity

Profession Identity Theft and Hijack is the reason for Guild Wars 2 being in a Identity crisis mode with Bad Design justifying it.

So...what is the point in wasting time, resources....having Profession rosters when The Meta - Thief Profession can do it all and have it all? 

Why not change the game into a single player game and leave it at that? Why not!! since only one Profession-Thief can outperform every Professions attributes, skills  in the roster? 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Leo G.4501]

2 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Here is another video with Specter exceeding in conditions than a Necromancer Profession Identity and Role whose unique Role and Identity in specializing in conditions

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvCn4vQbDuw

 

I don't think Necromancer's unique role or identity is simply "conditions".  That is exceptionally broad, like saying Warrior's unique role and identity is power damage. That's just dumb.

Secondly, I'd preface exceptional condition application (particularly, condition damage) with the other aspect of balancing around how much sustain and utility something has, and in that context, I'm sure Necro has more raw survivability with its high HP and 2nd HP bar. 

But I think the overall point you're responding to is, the especs were supposed to borrow certain class mechanics and tweak them a bit to perform differently as a means of differentiating the spec from a professions other specs, those other specs being core Thief, Daredevil and Deadeye when we're talking about Specter. It's rather bizarre to bring up necro there when you know darned well specs like Reaper and Scourge are the alternate playstyles you should be comparing them to because Specter doesn't replace all those with its existence.

I'm all for criticizing and examining class fantasy and what not but bad faith arguments are just a waste of time.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Leo G.4501

[ugrakarma.9416]

- complain that more classes need have alac/quickness;

- complain that now everything is about boons.

They just give what u wanted, now u have "alac warrior", be happy.

on Guardian forum exactly now, theres ppl complaing about lack of quickness support for DH...  i know what this will lead.

Edited September 11, 2023 by ugrakarma.9416

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 9/1/2023 at 9:23 PM, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Anet is walking the same path Zenimax walked when they were balancing Elder scrolls online. And Zenimax pissed off a LOT of folks when they homogenized their game.

folks are praising that path for years, now the resultd come, theyre complaing lmao.

years ago i warned about bizarre hybrids "i want play a heal warrior"..

[Dawdler.8521]

On 8/31/2023 at 7:30 PM, Arthelad.5418 said:

-Damage builds are beginning to do 42k+ dps as a normality (when builds used to do ~35k dps*).

*25K dps.

Just for better accuracy (25K was probably on the highest end too, ~20k more normal).

[xellink.7568]

On 9/1/2023 at 1:30 AM, Arthelad.5418 said:

I have some concerns for the what is going on with the balance of the game. I want to mention that this isn't intended to be a rant, but feedback and constructive criticism related to changes that might be bad for the overall enjoyment or potential of the combat system. This is purely my opinion on the matter.

-Damage builds are beginning to do 42k+ dps as a normality (when builds used to do ~35k dps).

-Essential boons have made the balancing of the meta a nightmare in the last years, rewarding a passive playstyle rather than an active playstyle. A lot of support builds can sometimes feel same-ish

-There are still many useless traits, skills and weapons, differing from class to class, with takes away from class fantasy and diversity of build.

-Unique buffs are getting rarer and rarer. While passive stat increases as they existed were a problem, they could have reworked them (and the useless traits mentioned previously) to traits that play into the classes' mechanics, ANet decided to make passive boon pulses that are pretty mediocre.

-There are classes that are now crossing mechanics, with no real distinguishing features. Necro and specter shrouds are basicly the same mechanic. Specter shroud could have given stealth and some boons when entering, with its duration being increased the more of the resource you had when entering, but just it feels like a suport based core necro shroud IMO. I'm not saying that specter isn't enjoyable, but that class fantasy feels like it it suffocating a bit. 

-Elite spec weapons are now usable on the other specs of the respective class. This change has had mostly good effects, if not losing another bit of elite spec identity. While it adds to the build diversity, it will make some weapons much more used, some weapons used relatively a same amount of times as other weapons and some weapons be used much less simply because the other weapon does .5-1k more dps. This change still needs time to play out properly

-Relic system removed a lot of rune effects and the ones that remained are a mixed bag between good and super niche.

Is it just me?

Agree that the peak should be shaved off to around 40-42k. However the peak was 39-42k in 2016/2017.

However, the tail end of the spectrum has now caught up with the head. Hitting higher DPS is an eventuality for most players. 

[qT] Scepter Warhorn FA Tempest Outdated DPS Benchmark (Post Seaweed Nerf) - YouTube

Outdated: GW2 Mirage Benchmark small Hitbox | 07.11. Patch | 42.5k - YouTube

 

 

[LadyKitty.6120]

5 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

Agree that the peak should be shaved off to around 40-42k. However the peak was 39-42k in 2016/2017.

However, the tail end of the spectrum has now caught up with the head. Hitting higher DPS is an eventuality for most players. 

[qT] Scepter Warhorn FA Tempest Outdated DPS Benchmark (Post Seaweed Nerf) - YouTube

Outdated: GW2 Mirage Benchmark small Hitbox | 07.11. Patch | 42.5k - YouTube

 

 

Just for clarification...

In March 2017, large hitbox benches were 34-38k and (more relevant) small hitboxes were 30-33.7k (most builds slightly above 30k). In May, they were buffed to 36-39.6k and 29.3-36.2k.

Now we have small hitbox benches at 42-49k for metabuilds which is basically 40-50% increase to baseline and the DPS >99% of content was balanced for. By the time we got our last 3 raids, top builds were doing 38-39k DPS and only compensation for increased DPS over recent years have been exposed nerfs (not applicable to squad content) and removal of unique buffs (with metabuilds having got buffs in compensation and some off-meta weapons still collecting dust in obsolution).

If you want precise numbers, wayback machine has crawls of qtfy .eu/benchmarks and snowcrows .com from that era.

[starlinvf.1358]

On 9/2/2023 at 2:23 AM, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

If you have to rely on Homogenizing your game to achieve balanced, than you failed as a balance team. Plain and simple.

I have never seen a game where Homogenized balanced have a long term positive impact in a game. For the sake of "Diversity" You're not actually making diversity. All Homogenized balance does is make each class feel the same, and make certain classes less appealing than others. If the thematic of classes is the only thing that should be unique, we're in trouble.

Anet is walking the same path Zenimax walked when they were balancing Elder scrolls online. And Zenimax pissed off a LOT of folks when they homogenized their game.

Counter Strike?   perfectly balanced. we all despise the AWP the same way. 

[otto.5684]

I do share many of these concerns. Damage should go back to 35-39k. Nothing should cross 40k.

Then we have homogenization. This is a complicated issue, which is further exacerbated by quickness and alacrity. 

Solutions? Not entirely sure, but I know that Anet is moving in the wrong direction.

[Matoro.9708]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:35 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Working as intended. One of the things that was said back when elite specialisations were being first discussed around HoT was that some elite specialisations would essentially be the replacements for GW1's secondary profession system. Spectre is essentially thief/necro, guardian is guardian/ranger, spellbreaker was explicitly described as warrior/mesmer (it also feels a bit guardian-like, but that's largely because guardian itself is also somewhat in the concept space between mesmer and warrior), and so on.

I never really though about it like that. It makes sense. However, instead of the GW1 style of mixing and matching the core profession skills, the hybrid professions gain their own new special skills, often much better than either core profession individually. Both systems have their flaws.

GW1 generally only had you take a primary profession for its unique skill line (you could still take those skills as a secondary but couldn't put points in to make them effective). Other than that, the primary profession's skills didn't really have to be good as long as you could dip into a profession that was overtuned. In GW2, both profession's core skills are left to rot in favor of the new. It's my opinion that elite specs are thematically tied to being a hybrid spec, but ultimately function like a different class because of how out of touch they are with core. 

I think there still is room for actual multiclassing in GW2, through the mastery system, maybe only letting you pick one or two utilities or a weapon. At the very least, it would open a lot of players eyes to how awful a lot of core utilities and weapons are, similar to how the current elite spec weapon freedom is doing. From there, I would hope for balance to bring up the underperformers or nerf the overperformers, but it could also just end up like GW1 did. 

 

It's not just you OP. Turret engi can barely break 3k dps and is outdone in every way by even the laziest meta build. Many players are having the problem where they can't even get into the meta to critique how "easy" things are. Which ultimately does state how absurdly broken meta builds are.

[anbujackson.9564]

Support inspiration chrono (before the rework in EoD) was considered too strong and unhealthy for the game (check the stream for the balance philosophy) because it provided both quickness and alacrity and some aegis. Completely ignoring how it still needed a boon healer, did no damage and was barely played anymore. Why? In combination with a healer it couldnt compete with any hybrid dps. 

It had to die for passive boon applications and instant cast 1 button presses. Requiring a rotation and significant bd investment would be too much to ask for.

Enough said.

Edited September 16, 2023 by anbujackson.9564

[LadyKitty.6120]

20 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Support inspiration chrono (before the rework in EoD) was considered too strong and unhealthy for the game (check the stream for the balance philosophy) because it provided both quickness and alacrity and some aegis. Completely ignoring how it still needed a boon healer, did no damage and was barely played anymore. Why? In combination with a healer it couldnt compete with any hybrid dps. 

It had to die for passive boon applications and instant cast 1 button presses. Requiring a rotation and significant bd investment would be too much to ask for.

Enough said.

Wouldn't say that boon chrono did no damage (unless built minstrel's which was a healer itself). Certainly lower than AlacRene (always paired with firebrand) but way above healer-tier. And since druid had spirits but couldn't bring alac or quickness, chrono was basically the only choice unless you wanted to run druid+2 boon-DPS in same sub (and people didn't). And on a sidenote, lots of people thought for longest time that only chrono was capable of tanking due to Distortion, shield block and Blurred Frenzy (and commanders requiring specifically chronotank after healbrand and heal scrapper became a thing became one of Kitty's worst pet peeves).

These days people would probably run 2 heal chronos and 8 DPS (probably including 2 condi scourges for might+minor barrier) if chrono was still capable of bringing both quickness and alacrity. So, it is pretty reasonable that they nerfed it to bring only one of them.

[itspomf.9523]

Quickness should be severely limited (and self-only) and Alacrity should be removed altogether.  Those two boons alone account for way more than they should, and the increased prevalence and ease of access to everything else is only half of the problem.

[LadyKitty.6120]

2 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

Quickness should be severely limited (and self-only) and Alacrity should be removed altogether.  Those two boons alone account for way more than they should, and the increased prevalence and ease of access to everything else is only half of the problem.

Problem with removing alacrity now is that they've balanced the game around it. If you remove it, specs that use auto-attack in their rotation, are limited by weapon swap cooldown, use primarily count skills or don't have cooldown on their main damage skills won't be affected much while builds using tight rotations and big damage skills off-CD would suffer greatly unless they do MASSIVE balance rework while at it. (Lots of cooldown changes and condi stack/duration and power coefficient changes)

And if we went that way, while at it, we could just as well get rid of perma-vulnerability, all shared offensive boons (or give them scarcely with very short duration so people would need to coordinate their burst) and shared stability. That would obviously destroy boon-DPS builds but at least it wouldn't really matter which healer you'd bring as long as you balance their healing output! 😸(Some other game went that route though it doesn't have traits nor weapon options which make GW2 the balancing nightmare it is.)

As a buildcrafter who loves trying out new builds (in big part due to getting bored of one playstyle in a couple days) and the sheer potential for versatility that GW2's build system has, Kitty really opposes these ideas.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

And if we went that way, while at it, we could just as well get rid of perma-vulnerability, all shared offensive boons (or give them scarcely with very short duration so people would need to coordinate their burst) and shared stability. That would obviously destroy boon-DPS builds but at least it wouldn't really matter which healer you'd bring as long as you balance their healing output!

This is the way.

Ahh, I remember the days when coordinating boons and conditions were dynamic and bursty.  Combo fields too! Tactical combat was more dynamic overall rather than constant and static, barring the guardian/substitute stab provider kittening the mechanic. Fun times. At least OW and WVW still manages to capture some of that magic.

[AlPower.2476]

Everyone is doin' to much dps (pve), idk what to say about it

Edited September 18, 2023 by AlPower.2476

[Dawdler.8521]

7 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

This is the way.

Ahh, I remember the days when coordinating boons and conditions were dynamic and bursty.  Combo fields too! Tactical combat was more dynamic overall rather than constant and static, barring the guardian/substitute stab provider kittening the mechanic. Fun times. At least OW and WVW still manages to capture some of that magic.

Tbh I think the game would have been better with class unique AoE fields that cant stack, rather than boons.

[itspomf.9523]

18 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

This is the way.

Ahh, I remember the days when coordinating boons and conditions were dynamic and bursty.  Combo fields too! Tactical combat was more dynamic overall rather than constant and static, barring the guardian/substitute stab provider kittening the mechanic. Fun times. At least OW and WVW still manages to capture some of that magic.

You're making me nostalgic for Pre-HoT GW2.

[Danny De Ditto.1345]

On 9/1/2023 at 9:23 PM, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

If you have to rely on Homogenizing your game to achieve balanced, than you failed as a balance team. Plain and simple.

I have never seen a game where Homogenized balanced have a long term positive impact in a game. For the sake of "Diversity" You're not actually making diversity. All Homogenized balance does is make each class feel the same, and make certain classes less appealing than others. If the thematic of classes is the only thing that should be unique, we're in trouble.

Anet is walking the same path Zenimax walked when they were balancing Elder scrolls online. And Zenimax pissed off a LOT of folks when they homogenized their game.

Same thing that's happening rn with FF14, if they keep it up another expansion i presume we'll see a steady decline, lot of folks that are actualy playing the game are already pissed me included.

Game's also the most balanced mmorpg in history at the moment........... hard not to be when all your classes play exactly the kittening same.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Danny De Ditto.1345

[anbujackson.9564]

On 9/17/2023 at 7:07 PM, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Wouldn't say that boon chrono did no damage (unless built minstrel's which was a healer itself). Certainly lower than AlacRene (always paired with firebrand) but way above healer-tier. And since druid had spirits but couldn't bring alac or quickness, chrono was basically the only choice unless you wanted to run druid+2 boon-DPS in same sub (and people didn't). And on a sidenote, lots of people thought for longest time that only chrono was capable of tanking due to Distortion, shield block and Blurred Frenzy (and commanders requiring specifically chronotank after healbrand and heal scrapper became a thing became one of Kitty's worst pet peeves).

These days people would probably run 2 heal chronos and 8 DPS (probably including 2 condi scourges for might+minor barrier) if chrono was still capable of bringing both quickness and alacrity. So, it is pretty reasonable that they nerfed it to bring only one of them.

A domi/inspi chrono didnt do a lot of damage (15k max on the golem!). Obviously it was more than a healer, since diviner gear existed. Thats not really hard. 

You could have run chronos with tempest and heal herold too. It provided heal flexibility actually. 

It doesnt really matter if it used to be go-to-spec in the past. I specifically stated that I was talking about pre EoD right before the rework. Not PoF launch or anything like that. And its a fact that almost no one played this anymore because it was inferior.

And no... first of all heal chrono never existed anymore after the chaos and SoI nerfs. And for a good reason. It doesnt really have any notable healing and its boons besides quickness, alac and aegis were/are barely existent. Fury, swiftness and some might were provided with pact rune and that alone wasnt enough. There was no other group source. Regen doesnt exist and prot on shield 4 doesnt last long enough either, especially with no deja vu. And stacking dps is a scourge problem, not chrono. Why is it the fault of chrono that stacking scourges is broken? Its still broken in any other combination, so that makes no sense to me.

What makes you think that pre EoD chrono would be even remotely played right now with offensive supports being the strongest they have ever been when it wasnt played before? You seem to also forget that providing boons these days is a complete joke. No one wanted stationary wells anymore and you wouldnt want them now  in pugs either when you can provide them with a higher radius while also being passive around you with no effort and barely any BD invest.

Edited September 22, 2023 by anbujackson.9564