Damage in WvW needs nerf

[Svarty.8019]

@Ubi.4136 said:But, there are a LOT of people who DO have it macro'd.

TBH, it's not the macros that are the problem...

[Sylvyn.4750]

About the delay in pressing skill buttons...pretty sure Rift or WoW had that, with a little one-second timer that spun around all your skill buttons until they refreshed, a global cooldown in addition to each skill's specific cooldown.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:This build is nothing new and has been used for years. If I weren't on my laptop I'd upload a screen of mine where I random-dodged the combo and still l got hit for a 9k The Prestige from the disengage into S/T after their BT and noclone distortion.

The issue, similar to D/P signet thief, is how it pretty much lacks a tell and how safe it is to execute given its ability to immediately swap into chained invulns and stealth.It's not that it deals too much damage or that stats are too inflated in WvW so much as it's pretty much impossible to see coming and respond to the burst, and even if can randomly dodge, it has means to escape with relative ease.

It's like asking to nerf backstab. Do you think power D/D thief is OP? No. Why? Because you can see the BV'ed backstab coming since it's not set up from stealth and is preceded by another hit that sets it up. Stunbreak, dodge, and the whole skill and combo is negated and they're at a hard disadvantage because the rest of the kit is horrible to fight toe-to-toe with

It's just hiding that setup part like on D/P signet thief or stealth mesmer is a huge issue and appears to break the skill.

Don't go after the damage. Go after the broken mechanics of being able to hide tells entirely and burst without them. Because without the stealth, this build is straight garbage and otherwise only wins by outplaying the hell out of you, in which case... that's totally fine. The fight just ends faster.

Great analysis as usual and I'm inclined to agree with you that perhaps the no tell setup from invis is the big problem here.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@"K THEN.5162" said:MOM GET THE CAMERA I'M FAMOUS!

I greatly appreciate the attention and I hope you don't mind me sneaking into this discussion =)

First things first, I'd like to attempt to prove that I'm not using macros by showing my keybindings below...and before you ask, yes I can literally only move forward XDPlease don't do jumping puzzles with this set ^

Next thing I'd like to address is the difficulty of the burst: Though it is pretty much muscle memory at this point, it took me quite a lot of practice and repetition to get the rotation down. My personal max damage rotation involves 9 button presses in the span of a second, that being Mirrorblade - Diversion - Mantra Charge 1 - Mindwrack - Mind Stab - Weapon Swap - Mantra Charge 2 - Blurred Frenzy - Cry of Frustration. So from this you can probably see why I don't have A, S, or D binded to movement.

Also I am in full glass right down to the scholars runes so let me outline the pros and cons of my build:Pros:

• Highest untelegraphed burst in the game
• Access to high stealth up time (thank you Prismatic Understanding)
• A bunch of "OH $H!T" buttons via stunbreaks, stealth, and immunities
• I look friggen fabulous

Cons:

• A small gust of wind puts me into the downstate
• I have 1 condi cleanse...on a 30 second cooldown
• Limited Mobility (I have base movement speed and a blink on a 24 second cd)...although mirage can fix this
• Easily countered by passive immunities

Now the question is, is it op or not? Well, I actually think it is. The build instantly places 20-25 stacks of vulnerability on my opponent which pretty much renders armor values irrelevant unless you have 3.5k+. This inherently pigeon holes all the other classes to run passive immunities such as Endure Pain, Instant Reflexes, Signet of Stone, and Elixir S, a mechanic in this game I find too forgiving to bad plays. That being said, there are currently quite a lot of unhealthy to downright oppressive mechanics in this game right now such as the entire condi system (application, clearing, and damage), hacking, might to weakness corruption, stealth stacking (I'm guilty of this), scourge, passives, and many more. So while I think power mesmer should be adjusted in some fashion, I do believe it is not the most toxic thing in WvW right now...but it's definitely up there.

Happy WvWing!

Thank you for sharing. I would like to clarify that this isn't a 'crusade' against you or mesmers in general.

It is more the insane burst damage from stealth that I felt needs to be nerfed and as Deceiver pointed out, perhaps the biggest culprit is the lack of tells for such a huge setup.

I consider myself to be pretty aware of my surroundings but I never saw you or any tells of you going invis when you caught me with the burst.

Would you share how long you can stack invis with your build?

[Roxanne.6140]

So why is this coming up now again? Pretty sure this burst has been around since the start of earth and dinosaurs. Where are the attention-shifting posts on scourges again?

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Shirlias.8104 said:Bring SPvP stuff into WvW.

I’ve been saying for a long time using the PvP gear system (except with all options) and getting rid of food/utility buffs need to be the first step to balance WvW.

The only bonus should be WvW infusions to not screw those that earned ascended/legendary gear.

[K THEN.5162]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Thank you for sharing. I would like to clarify that this isn't a 'crusade' against you or mesmers in general.

It is more the insane burst damage from stealth that I felt needs to be nerfed and as Deceiver pointed out, perhaps the biggest culprit is the lack of tells for such a huge setup.

I consider myself to be pretty aware of my surroundings but I never saw you or any tells of you going invis when you caught me with the burst.

Would you share how long you can stack invis with your build?

Hi there! No need to worry about me feeling attacked, I understand that power mesmer can be quite frustrating to those on the receiving end. With the PU build, I can stack up to 12 seconds of undetected stealth using Mass Invisibility and Decoy and 16 1/2 when I decide to cast mesmer torch 4. This definitely gives me more than enough time to close in on unsuspecting players travelling in my general direction. In regards to dealing with the untelegraphed burst, I came up with 2 possible solutions that power mesmer mains would probably hate me for:

1. The clone spawns on the 3rd bounce of mirrorblade. If this was implemented, it would greatly lower the mesmer's instant burst while still maintaining it's total damage using the same rotation but stopping the 100-0 from stealth shenanigans.
2. When you start casting mirrorblade, it debuffs you with reveal, similar to death's judgement. This change, though appearing more bizarre on paper, would keep the same amount of burst damage on mesmer, however it gives your opponent some counterplay if they manage to spot the animation.

Not gonna lie, if either of these changes were implemented, I would more than likely retire my build. However, I am quite passionate about this game and I care deeply about it's overall health in regards to balancing so I understand that certain builds must be eliminated for the sake of preserving build diversity.

All the best with roaming!

[Clownmug.8357]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Shirlias.8104 said:Bring SPvP stuff into WvW.

I’ve been saying for a long time using the PvP gear system (except with all options) and getting rid of food/utility buffs need to be the first step to balance WvW.

The only bonus should be WvW infusions to not screw those that earned ascended/legendary gear.

I never liked this idea, but it's probably the only practical solution left after so many years of neglect. The balance team seems like they'll never be able to give attention to all game modes equally. Simplifying balance so it's just a split between competitive and non-competitive might make things easy enough for them though.

[bq pd.2148]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:It's like asking to nerf backstab. Do you think power D/D thief is OP? No. Why? Because you can see the BV'ed backstab coming since it's not set up from stealth and is preceded by another hit that sets it up. Stunbreak, dodge, and the whole skill and combo is negated and they're at a hard disadvantage because the rest of the kit is horrible to fight toe-to-toe with

It's just hiding that setup part like on D/P signet thief or stealth mesmer is a huge issue and appears to break the skill.

you dont need any weapon skill to stack enough stealth for an unpredictable backstab. so in that regard d/d is as good as d/p, but for what comes after the backstab d/p is mostly better. if it succeed tho, then it doesnt matter. most thieves dont deal much damage with their backstab, if you get some to over 20k, then you are running very glassy no matter if d/p or d/d and will still have a hard time after a failed attempt.i am also not sure if you can even compare backstab to mesmer one, cause backstab has 0 tell, i havent been oneshot by a mesmer for ages tho, as they dont even get near me without me noticing. as tradeoff, backstab does way lower damage then mesmer burst.

BTT:with the amount of sustain currently in the game, the damage is just fine. you cant nerf one without the other. currently we got the ability to build for very offensive and very defensive ones, while more balanced builds mostly are kinda weak. this leads to fights being either instant or infinite. nerfing damage and sustain might give us fights that take a while but do end. in that case numbers will again be more important then it is now and groupplay to coordinate your damage and support instead of : 3,2,1 - spamm!but how the combat will look like, how long fights should last, that is a gamedesgin question not a balance question. balancewise current damage is fine. but you might not like the current design of the fights, to change this we would need to tone alot of things down not just one thing or one class or one build, that wont do anything for the better.

This just isn't true. Dodge after CnD and stab is guaranteed to fail unless chasing is made part of the build, which will cut damage at minimum by nearly 18%. You also always know at the very least a stab is coming and a 3 second window of when it's coming when against D/D. Popping Aegis for example shuts down the build, because then CnD can't even be chained since it'll whiff, not put the thief in stealth, and cost them 12 init on two failed bursts. It's worth noting that per unit of time spent in stealth, D/P is also more initiative efficient, 100% dependable, and can inflict blind etc. on the enemy while stacking it.

D/P OTOH can just run BD on DrD and near-permanently stack stealth while getting better damage modifier access, disengage, and out-of-stealth utility.

Losing to D/D is pretty much just a lack of kit awareness and/or the person getting straight-up outplayed or having very slow reflexes. People are playing D/P signets often these days because of the realization you can stab most roaming builds for 15-20k with what is objectively zero tell even from great distances due to its non-hit easily-stacked stealth.

That's why I agree that damage itself isn't the problem, though. What breaks these build isn't the damage they have access to but how they access it. In kits like these, there is no forewarning. While the defenses in this game are pretty out of hand, a lot of them do revolve around cooldowns. 90% uptime on protection etc., which while ridiculous, will not be upheld when no enemies or threats are in sight/noticed, or such uptime is dependent on being in combat, which these builds also bypass.

It's honestly the only defense for keeping passive procs in the game. If everything started having better tells to be responded to, then passives would have no justifiable reason to be kept.

i just said that you can have enough stealth without weapon skills to land it just with utilities, for a while i put down shadow traps at positions i knew they would work and are frequently used routes. you can from reading the map see were opponents will go, be there before them but around a corner or so, when they start flipping the sentry / camp just use refuge and voila...so it you can ambush people with that easily on d/d aswell.i didnt say use CnD to get in stealth cause yes this will trigger by more experienced roamers a dogge/block etc reflex, if you want to warn your opponents before then better use rifle deadeye still very few people avoid it especially if you just mark and when near full hit immob shot into DJ and it will kill any build that has not protection up in that moment and no protection proc from rune /trait. cause alot more people will avoid a backstab after a CnD then a DJ, seems to be an easier reflex to learn. but i guess there are also enough people you could still kill easily with CnD -> BS, guessing by what my opponents do..

@Clownmug.8357 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Shirlias.8104 said:Bring SPvP stuff into WvW.

I’ve been saying for a long time using the PvP gear system (except with all options) and getting rid of food/utility buffs need to be the first step to balance WvW.

The only bonus should be WvW infusions to not screw those that earned ascended/legendary gear.

I never liked this idea, but it's probably the only practical solution left after so many years of neglect. The balance team seems like they'll never be able to give attention to all game modes equally. Simplifying balance so it's just a split between competitive and non-competitive might make things easy enough for them though.

with PvP gear limitations in WvW, i guess they could lose quite a lot of players.

[EbonFreeman.4051]

I guess, if you wanted ABSOLUTE balance then you could measure the absolute highest damage against the absolute highest sustain & healing. Then the question would be what is an acceptable number of attacks before death? 1? 2? 10? 20? Most people are running middle classes which when compared to high attack would make them squishy.

In old gw2, the cele-mesmer was insane. 1v5s were quite do-able. Anet nerfed that and everyone went zerker. Then zerker got nerfed so they went condi. Then with last major update condi/boons were reduced but still viable. Now, I run a hodge podge that makes 1v3 easy with 1v4 & 1v5 viable.

If you have the right gear and rotation, you can one shot with any profession. I could run the one shot, but I think its gimmicky as fenk. They throw their rotation, blow their cool downs, and if they miss they run as fast as they can. Pathetic. I've run into two mesmers recently running it. One is running it as a macro and I reported him on it. He didn't adjust to my position when I dodged and kept using his exact same rotation. I have a video of the fight if you want to see it. There are also thieves who also do something similar (40k rotation w/ max malice & might). Scourges can do 1v5 in lord's room easily by blowing everything (because condi cleanse is meta). Ele's do insane damage/healing. Warrior's can run invincible with 22 stacks of might. Firebrand can heal from nearly anything and do ~32k with good rotation. Revenant can run pretty much any stat (with severely limited choices for skills). But I feel like engi got the hose in WvW and rangers get their choice of run healer or go roam. Before PoF there was a spreadsheet that said which prof & specialization had an advantage over each other. I could simplify this with minstrel = rock, condi-tank = scissors, full-zerker = paper, lizard = wanderer, and grieving = Spock. Overall, there is no build and profession that can cancel everything. If you know what someone is wearing before you go in, then you can properly prepare for canceling everything he or she's going to do. Which is why Anet has disallowed any apps/tools that can do it. When you're rocking legendary gear, you just take a glance, hot-swap your gear and pow, free bag. I come to WvW for good fights.

Anet has limited resources so they can't throw all their money at WvW. I'm betting the WvW balance team is pretty small and has limited time to work on it (like every three months). I give a lot of kudos to them for the vast improvements they've made in the last year. If they want to throw something in the gem store (like duel tokens or a queue fast pass) to show my support for WvW, I would.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@K THEN.5162 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Thank you for sharing. I would like to clarify that this isn't a 'crusade' against you or mesmers in general.

It is more the insane burst damage from stealth that I felt needs to be nerfed and as Deceiver pointed out, perhaps the biggest culprit is the lack of tells for such a huge setup.

I consider myself to be pretty aware of my surroundings but I never saw you or any tells of you going invis when you caught me with the burst.

Would you share how long you can stack invis with your build?

Hi there! No need to worry about me feeling attacked, I understand that power mesmer can be quite frustrating to those on the receiving end. With the PU build, I can stack up to 12 seconds of undetected stealth using Mass Invisibility and Decoy and 16 1/2 when I decide to cast mesmer torch 4. This definitely gives me more than enough time to close in on unsuspecting players travelling in my general direction. In regards to dealing with the untelegraphed burst, I came up with 2 possible solutions that power mesmer mains would probably hate me for:

1. The clone spawns on the 3rd bounce of mirrorblade. If this was implemented, it would greatly lower the mesmer's instant burst while still maintaining it's total damage using the same rotation but stopping the 100-0 from stealth shenanigans.
2. When you start casting mirrorblade, it debuffs you with reveal, similar to death's judgement. This change, though appearing more bizarre on paper, would keep the same amount of burst damage on mesmer, however it gives your opponent some counterplay if they manage to spot the animation.

Not gonna lie, if either of these changes were implemented, I would more than likely retire my build. However, I am quite passionate about this game and I care deeply about it's overall health in regards to balancing so I understand that certain builds must be eliminated for the sake of preserving build diversity.

All the best with roaming!

As someone who hates insta kill 100-0 builds I would say that the first option would be way too harsh of a nerf as landing all 3 bounces of mirror blade is not something that happens frequently, and that the change would remove great-sword's clone generation almost entirely. It might be ok if the third clone spawns even if the second and third bounces do not connect, but I feel like that might be awkward to program. It would also would kill using mirror blade from any range aside from point blank, as it needs the clone to get multiple bounces unless there are multiple targets in the area. Option two seems pretty reasonable to me allowing a window to react to the crazy burst damage. I would also rework confounding suggestions as the synergy with mantra of distraction (and to a lesser extent diversion) is unhealthy. Having the massive burst combo able to be set up by an instant ranged stun on such a short cool-down means that any build that doesn't have a plethora of stun-breaks can't really do anything but die, or random dodge.

[Justine.6351]

I had one mesmer no stealth fail burst, ~5 seconds later after they blanket evade all my attacks I got instant downed idk how. Checked log and had some mind wrack and multiple jaunts. Idk I play glass rev so I don't care. It's better than getting shit on by a condi bunker scourge who blankets the ground.

[Dawdler.8521]

@EbonFreeman.4051 said:But I feel like engi got the hose in WvWAll that and then you say this? Holo main or what?

Holo is insanely powerfull and I've seen the really good ones be about as tanky as spellbreakers, with perma protection and 25 might etc while doing enough damage to kill you in one of its dozen stuns.

[Eramonster.2718]

Ahem, guys? Ranger here...where do I?...nevermind....

[EbonFreeman.4051]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"EbonFreeman.4051" said:But I feel like engi got the hose in WvWAll that and then you say

this

? Holo main or what?

Holo is insanely powerfull and I've seen the really good ones be about as tanky as spellbreakers, with perma protection and 25 might etc while doing enough damage to kill you in one of its dozen stuns.

I'm not saying I don't like engi/holo or they aren't powerful. I actually really like them. But the most epic engis I've seen were in PvP. The reason I feel like they got hosed in WvW is because engis didn't get skills that scaled. Holo can do great for small fights like 1-8, but when it goes to large scale, you just have to "make it work." I've met some talented engis in WvW, but I have heard of very, very, few guilds that had engi or holo as their designed core comp. You can use it for GvG, but there are other options. I think any profession should be a viable option whether small, medium, or large.

[intox.6347]

@Helly.2597 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Oozo.7856 said:

@Kirnale.5914 said:Jump dodges can be easily done without macro.

100% jump dodges throughout an entire movie = macro

It means they can hit two keys at the same time and had enough endurance to dodge 100% of the time. It's seriously not complicated, and not worth a macro.

I really don't understand people who think that jump dodging 100% of the time means you're using a macro. If pressing 2 buttons at a time seems like a task to you you've got to reevaluate your personal skill level. Then again, I've been accused of using macros on my videos when I even have my keyboard onscreen for everyone to see.

It is actually laughable to me that people think that most good mesmers are using a macro for their burst as well. Using a macro to pull of a burst is just going to make you predictable and easy to kill since all it takes is one competent opponent to learn how to dodge it. As far as NA roaming mesmers, the 5 I consider the best don't use macros guaranteed, and I have never come across a any class that stood out as having a lot of macro users. Hey what do I know though, only played since launch almost exclusively WvW.

People claim getting 1 shot is rampant with these builds out there, but I can count on my hand the number of times since PoF I have been 1 shot by any class let alone mesmers and that is having played marauder revenant and marauder core guardian the majority of the time since PoF launch. The hardest thing to admit is that you're getting outplayed.

I saw in your videos you are very capable to handle fight, but it looks like you really didnt met this 1shot mes yet. Good ones not many around.... some of them on macros... but u can sometimes spot them how they play, one combo... hide and wait till all ready. I sometimes play it too.. but in mirage variant... full glass and most of classes going down on one combo. Dont like this gameplay... coz im feeling im cheating... Its not dueling... like 1v1 and see who is better, its just surprise 1 shot in face, bb wp.

[XenesisII.1540]

You know what I love the most about the counter arguments to the one shot or one combo kills?I'm a glass cannon, a soft breeze will kill me.... which gives me all the reason to be allowed to do this awesome damage, from stealth, in a second, to another glass cannon who probably doesn't have stealth.... Anet balance is a-ok.

[X T D.6458]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:You know what I love the most about the counter arguments to the one shot or one combo kills?I'm a glass cannon, a soft breeze will kill me.... which gives me all the reason to be allowed to do this awesome damage, from stealth, in a second, to another glass cannon who probably doesn't have stealth.... Anet balance is a-ok.

I thought it was "L2P" or "Git gud noob"

[Jiminy.8340]

The prevailing consensus from the Reddit thread about the same issue, was: Learn to dodge.

[ketzer.3158]

Reddit is relevant how?

[Kirnale.5914]

People who are against the nerf: "Don't nerf it, I use it!"

Besides, when is the balance patch? Today?

[Sandzibar.5134]

@"Kirnale.5914" said:People who are against the nerf: "Don't nerf it, I use it!"

Besides, when is the balance patch? Today?

They said mid season didnt they? so probably not until feb

[Klipso.8653]

@shagwell.1349 said:Reddit is relevant how?

The Devs have always communicated via Redddit far more frequently than these official forums.

[mcarswell.3768]

someone died in a pvp zone...

[Mikhael.2391]

Here s my thought. No class should deal any considerable damage while passives or abilities make them invul or evade.