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PvP/WvW Balance Patch - What Went Wrong Boys?


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For the first time in Guild Wars 2 forum history, everyone is agreeing on the same thing. Check out the up votes in these threads:

We finally get a pvp/wvw specific skill split balance patch, which should have been the best competitive balance patch that we've seen yet, but it is debatably the worst. This time, we can't blame it on "skills are balanced by the pve team." because this was designed by the pvp team. So... what happened and are there any plans to fix this any time soon? I mean seriously, this is like the straw the broke the camel's back. We've had a busted pvp mode for years now but this is just officially "broken" at this point.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:For the first time in Guild Wars 2 forum history, everyone is agreeing on the same thing. Check out the up votes in these threads:

We finally get a pvp/wvw specific skill split balance patch, which should have been the best competitive balance patch that we've seen yet, but it is debatably the worst. This time, we can't blame it on "skills are balanced by the pve team." because this was designed by the pvp team. So... what happened and are there any plans to fix this any time soon? I mean seriously, this is like the straw the broke the camel's back. We've had a busted pvp mode for years now but this is just officially "broken" at this point.

What happened? Well they went a little bit ham on warrior and forgot about everything else. Everything else got very minor cooldown nerfs. There's still far too much burst, I'd say overall the damage of everything needs toning down massively.

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Because with every new expansion, damage and abilities get more and more out of control (damage and evades and blocks, etc). Because damage right now is ABSURDLY high.

And this "balance patch" they mainly focused on defensive passives...

They probably should have fixed the crazy damage first.

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:There's still time! This is not an answer to the question!

Unfortunately, Anet is pretty consistent about not fixing major mistakes with their patch like this.

I'd love anet to prove us wrong on this one and release a quick append to the patch before the season starts. Something more than just the slap on the wrist that mes got in comparison to other classes. But I don't think they will. Chances are Mesmer is now God-king class for the next few months at least.

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Subtle Trevor, really subtle.

The answer is there’s mechanical as well as skill/trait changes needed for your problem which you can’t do in a skill split as they don’t want skills to behave fundamentally different in different game modes.

Edit:For those that need explanations I include the following common complaints:

Elusive mind: Many mesmer players agree it shouldn't be stunbreak on dodge however removing this in a skill split patch would make it function differently in each game mode.

Phantasms and their damage: Phantasms don’t gain any benefit from % damage mods on the mesmer and it’s generally hard to keep track of what trait do affect them. They also gain no benefit from the mesmer getting might without taking phantasmal force however they can be disproportionately buffed by the aforementioned trait and chronophantasma. The solution would be to make much more of mesmer damage traits to be more unilateral damage buffs affecting all skills while properly balancing the mods on the skills themselves so a defensive build won’t have huge damage. This would need A LOT of work.

Mind wrack: See above, however it has had mental anguish nerfed a bit however it has reasonably high base damage mod which means just stacking might can put it to high damage levels. Can be numbers balanced but would also need trait changes.

Too many AI entities: I was in favour of removing phantasms completely and have the mesmer do an attack leaving behind a clone which you can swap with similar to illusionary leap. Nothing I can say other than get behind the idea of solving it by removing phantasms completely and letting those attacks be entirely from the mesmer.

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Nothing went wrong, it's a very solid patch. Doesn't resolve all the problems, but significantly limits their consequences.

If I'd have to guess the reason behind Mesmer slipping through with most of it's power intact is either:

a) the pvp/wvw team hasn't yet clearly identified the key parts of post-rework mesmer they can nuke without dragging the whole class to the bottom (in which case, turning to some skilled mesmers like misha/frosty for help would be beneficial and easy since both stream and are easy to reach),

b) or, more likely, they know what the issues are, but those go beyond skill splits and require game-wide alternations, which is the balance team's job. So while they debate on how to target-nuke mirage and mesmer, we got some basic set of mesmer nerfs that limit it a bit for the time being.

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What went wrong is the samething that has been going on for 5 years. It works sort of like this:

Anet: We are going to release some balance changes, hopefully to change up the meta and tone down (insert whatever that might be here).

Community: These changes seem ok....but why didn't you address (insert problem here). Its game breaking, please change it.

Anet: No response

Releases patch

Community: OMG! I can't believe Anet did not balance (insert random OP stuff), why release a patch then?

This is pretty much it. Anet tends to not listen. If we were to remove scourge and mesmer from pvp right now, I'd say the patch was pretty good. But they failed to address scourge and mesmer in the right way so the skill split is useless since it didn't address the problems with these two classes. Post patch I had a match that didn't have a scourge or mesmer on the other team. And you know what? It felt great and believe it or not...semi balanced.

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spellbreaker performs well vs bad players and not so well vs good players

the balance is based on the average silver/gold player which is why they nerfed spellbreaker out of the meta (this is what happens when u balance after silver/gold tier)

while that they completly ignored the actual problems.. mirage, scourge /fb combo and now that every class got nerfed (druid holo thief as well) and mesmer got away with some kitten nerfs players realize even more how busted mirage is.

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Yet another batch of number tweaks. They should really start to play PvP by themselves if they want to fix it. So far "looking at it" and "monitoring the issues" then doing changes do not seem to work , makes it worse, or just shifts the meta to some other cheese. I am livid about the fact that PvE team pulls the strings in terms of doing those changes, there is no consistency. Balance patches are memes my dudes

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@Rym.1469 said:Nothing went wrong, it's a very solid patch. Doesn't resolve all the problems, but significantly limits their consequences.

If I'd have to guess the reason behind Mesmer slipping through with most of it's power intact is either:

a) the pvp/wvw team hasn't yet clearly identified the key parts of post-rework mesmer they can nuke without dragging the whole class to the bottom (in which case, turning to some skilled mesmers like misha/frosty for help would be beneficial and easy since both stream and are easy to reach),

b) or, more likely, they know what the issues are, but those go beyond skill splits and require game-wide alternations, which is the balance team's job. So while they debate on how to target-nuke mirage and mesmer, we got some basic set of mesmer nerfs that limit it a bit for the time being.

Mesmer slipped through because a lot of its skills need to be redesigned again, instead of split.

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@Rym.1469 said:Nothing went wrong, it's a very solid patch. Doesn't resolve all the problems, but significantly limits their consequences.

It was a decent patch. The problem is a balance patch is only as good as its worst idea. So while every class except mesmer was a step in the right direction ( No really, play a scrim with friends and have mesmer banned. It's actually amazingly balanced. ) leaving Mes as SS+ tier while the second best class/role is A+ at best brings the whole patch down. Because while everything else is fair, it doesn't matter when I can just hop on my mes alt and god-carry because this class has literally no counter to it whatsoever and is top tier in every category except support.

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@"Rym.1469" said:Nothing went wrong, it's a very solid patch. Doesn't resolve all the problems, but significantly limits their consequences.

If I'd have to guess the reason behind Mesmer slipping through with most of it's power intact is either:

a) the pvp/wvw team hasn't yet clearly identified the key parts of post-rework mesmer they can nuke without dragging the whole class to the bottom (in which case, turning to some skilled mesmers like misha/frosty for help would be beneficial and easy since both stream and are easy to reach),

b) or, more likely, they know what the issues are, but those go beyond skill splits and require game-wide alternations, which is the balance team's job. So while they debate on how to target-nuke mirage and mesmer, we got some basic set of mesmer nerfs that limit it a bit for the time being.

Yeah that's exactly what I mean though. "Somehow" Mesmer went through a pvp/wvw balance split and even though it was already widely considered the dominant class in the game BEFORE the patch, it still somehow squeezed through with it's power intact, where as everything else got neutered.

I dunno, I find it hard to believe that it would be so difficult to quick hot fix & shave off at least 10% of that reigning burst and clone attrition DPS.

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They are more builds that aren't viable anymore that brand new builds that could be interesting in spvp now .... So for me , it's not a good patch

For People that needs examples .... here they are:

Out

full support Firebrandfull support TempestCondi bruiser weaverSupport/bunker herald (yeah was still a decent thing)Not sure the S/D discharge holosmith is a thing anymore... need to ask to engineer playersFA weaver is debatable : got nerfed in term of dmg cause no more support but why other burst builds didn't? I wonderBlood Scourge ofc !(maybe D/P thief but i'm not an expert and was maybe already "dead" before the patch)

In

Power ReaperPaladin? scrapperPower Mesmer (since last rework patch tho)

Come Back

Condi mesmer seems like ... even if i don't get how

PS: Feel free to add/remove builds if you disagree or if I forgot /made a mistake about something.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Rym.1469" said:Nothing went wrong, it's a very solid patch. Doesn't resolve all the problems, but significantly limits their consequences.

If I'd have to guess the reason behind Mesmer slipping through with most of it's power intact is either:

a) the pvp/wvw team hasn't yet clearly identified the key parts of post-rework mesmer they can nuke without dragging the whole class to the bottom (in which case, turning to some skilled mesmers like misha/frosty for help would be beneficial and easy since both stream and are easy to reach),

b) or, more likely, they know what the issues are, but those go beyond skill splits and require game-wide alternations, which is the balance team's job. So while they debate on how to target-nuke mirage and mesmer, we got some basic set of mesmer nerfs that limit it a bit for the time being.

Yeah that's exactly what I mean though. "Somehow" Mesmer went through a pvp/wvw balance split and even though it was already widely considered the dominant class in the game BEFORE the patch, it still somehow squeezed through with it's power intact, where as everything else got neutered.

I dunno, I find it hard to believe that it would be so difficult to quick hot fix & shave off at least 10% of that reigning burst and clone attrition DPS.

As I and OriOri have explained, it’s traits and skills that need a rework not a numbers shave and this was a numbers skill split patch. It’s not the first time we’ve had to explain this, wont be the last.

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