Lack of epic characters in story

[Gehenna.3625]

@kasoki.5180 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@kasoki.5180 said:The fact that characters in this story are "normal" citizens is what precisely makes them heroic when they do somethingExcept a group of normal citizens would never ever be able to beat demons, dragons and gods. They would've died early on or say f

this s

, I'm outta here.

Except that they did, and constantly do. Simply playing the game quite clearly shows that.Sigh, yes they do. Which makes no sense...that's my point. You complain about unrealistic characters in games in general but unrealistic enemies require unrealistic heroes. To make the heroes more "normal" while the enemies are still way over-the-top is just bs. It doesn't make them heroic but more unrealistic even within the scope of a fantasy story.

@Gehenna.3625 said:Besides, if you think GW2 doesn't have its share of tropes, deus ex machina moments and lazy plot devices already then I'm not sure what to tell you.

I never said that it doesn't have those. Its just that its mostly not the characters surrounding us (with obvious exception of Taimi)Well I guess we have a different view on that.

In the end all the people you hang with are heroes also with much richer histories than your own. As far as I'm concerned my character is the deus ex machina in service of whatever group I'm hanging with. For a game that boasts to make you the hero and puts you at the center, it's rather a disconnect.

[GRRRR.3521]

Id be fine with some NPCs taking center stage like it was in GW1.

GW1 didnt try to pretend you make your own decisions. You followed someone around as a sort of elite squad for special missions (be it Rurik or whoever) and it flowed much nicer this way imo, because thats what you do really - go somewhere youre told and kill stuff and that was fine in the story framework of an mmorpg.

"Commander" is such a meaningless meme, so much that Anet themselves dropped it. Youre not somewhere commanding and this isnt a single player rpg where you can have multiple branching story paths based on player decisions - theres one path and somehow the game will tell you to go there and do a thing, no matter in how many layers of "youre the special decision making person and your decisions totally factored into this" layers its coated.

If you dropped the pretense and went with the GW1 way you could have more fleshed out NPCs i think (like Rurik for example). Also whats so bad about being the muscle under the command of an NPC hero - i always thought of the GW1/2 pcs as Tyrias version of the SWAT team, that aint so bad isnt it? XD

[Clyan.1593]

I dont care too much about all of this, but I have to admit, being the commander or the leader I actually don't feel like that at all. To me it seems more like I'm an adventurer stuck in a big story, getting pushed from one event to the next, and oddly everyone calls me commander despite the fact I never command anyone or anything. After all I did I think every single person from choya to humans at least should know my name and ask me to sign any of their random belongings. I should be a god to them. Instead I'm just a stranger farming volatile magic to buy stuff from people who won't gift anything to me despite all I did for them.

Nah, just joking. I am the commander and I demand more adventures.

[Gehenna.3625]

@Clyan.1593 said:I dont care too much about all of this, but I have to admit, being the commander or the leader I actually don't feel like that at all. To me it seems more like I'm an adventurer stuck in a big story, getting pushed from one event to the next, and oddly everyone calls me commander despite the fact I never command anyone or anything. After all I did I think every single person from choya to humans at least should know my name and ask me to sign any of their random belongings. I should be a god to them. Instead I'm just a stranger farming volatile magic to buy stuff from people who won't gift anything to me despite all I did for them.

Nah, just joking. I am the commander and I demand more adventures.

No no… I'm the commander and I demand a different job title that's not lame.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

@Steve The Cynic.3217 said:

@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:when you hink about it there was a situation tho were commander achieved "unlikely" victory on his own.....

ghosteater in realm of the lost - as long as you were not doing the story in party with friends you had no assistance in this fight and the judge was not giving us much hopes for win...

 

Ha! The last time I did that, I had the help of four NPCs. In fact, they did

all

the work, and I do mean

all

of it. Their names were Blood Fiend, Shadow Fiend, Bone Fiend and Flesh Golem.

Hey! these don't count! you filthy minionmancer, you :P

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I can relate to the OP. I'm watching a playthrough of Starcraft right now, and the GW2 NPCs have nothing on the likes of Raynor or Kerrigan.

There's some wisdom in making the player a side character in the story arc. If you have an NPC character as the epic hero, that gives a great deal of control in writing. The NPC can face adversity, grow, have revelations, rise, or fall at the stroke of a pen. The entirety of their story arc is within developer control, which can lend itself to masterful storytelling if done right. In contrast, doing the same thing with the player character causes problems. There is dissonance between the player and what their characters do, what their characters feel, and what their characters experience. Forced failures or successes for the sake of the story feel arbitrary and cheap. This results in having the player either be written as a blandly capable self-insert, or massive decision trees to satiate the player's individual quirks.

Anet did experiment with this style of writing at the game's launch. Problem was, it was Trahaern. The guy was supposed to be a humble general, which just made him unrealistic and a bit frustrating at times. Being humble is not the quality of a good leader. The guy was supposed to possess massive power, but he was incredibly feeble in combat and would lose to the weakest of enemies. The entirety of his arc consisted of him being anxious about taking the mantle, and his vague and unrelatable desire to cleanse Orr. We weren't given any reason why he was justified to carry the mantle. He just was. All in all, Trahaern's story was like watching fate give us the short straw while everything was magically given over to a tree, literally and figuratively.

Later seasons, we didn't just abandon the character, we abandoned the model as a whole.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:We weren't given any reason why he was justified to carry the mantle.

actually we were:he was only dude available at hand that had respect of all 3 orders that was not a part of any of them (that also played a role in creating a pact in the first place)

which was important because the call was made at the very point when almorra, gixx, and master of whispers were about to get to each other throats over who is supposed to be leader of their new alliance.....

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:We weren't given any reason why he was justified to carry the mantle.

actually we were:he was only dude available at hand that had respect of all 3 orders that was not a part of any of them (that also played a role in creating a pact in the first place)

which was important because the call was made at the very point when almorra, gixx, and master of whispers were about to get to each other throats over who is supposed to be leader of their new alliance.....

I'm referring to the part where we go into a dream prophecy and he gets a magic super sword Caladbolg. Because Wyld Hunt. I can't remember which happened first.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:We weren't given any reason why he was justified to carry the mantle.

actually we were:he was only dude available at hand that had respect of all 3 orders that was not a part of any of them (that also played a role in creating a pact in the first place)

which was important because the call was made at the very point when almorra, gixx, and master of whispers were about to get to each other throats over who is supposed to be leader of their new alliance.....

I'm referring to the part where we go into a dream prophecy and he gets a magic super sword Caladbolg. Because Wyld Hunt. I can't remember which happened first.

ah this part, well to be honest I don't remember where excaly on the timeline of forming the pact that one, but your statement also contain answer to a "reason why he was justified to carry the mantle" - because of his wyld hunt - dude was literally born with goal to cleanse Orr, and Caladbolg was a tool given to him so he can at least try ;)

[Durzlla.6295]

Are we all going to sit here and forget about other epic characters that just aren’t part of our guild/party? Zojja, Logan, and Caithe are all epic in their own right, and then there’s Queen Jenna, Countess Anise, Trahearne, Hell even Faren, and master one eye Bongo or w/e his name are are damn impressive in their own right.

We also have the newly recruited Priestess who already seems like she’s going to be a power house in her own right, not to mention Kasmeer, Marjory, and Broham are all extremely capable in their own right, and Taimi being considered a “plot device” certainly doesn’t mean she’s weak in world, or at least that her brain and inventions aren’t.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:We weren't given any reason why he was justified to carry the mantle.

actually we were:he was only dude available at hand that had respect of all 3 orders that was not a part of any of them (that also played a role in creating a pact in the first place)

which was important because the call was made at the very point when almorra, gixx, and master of whispers were about to get to each other throats over who is supposed to be leader of their new alliance.....

I'm referring to the part where we go into a dream prophecy and he gets a magic super sword Caladbolg. Because Wyld Hunt. I can't remember which happened first.

ah this part, well to be honest I don't remember where excaly on the timeline of forming the pact that one, but your statement also contain answer to a "reason why he was justified to carry the mantle" - because of his wyld hunt - dude was literally born with goal to cleanse Orr, and Caladbolg was a tool given to him so he can at least try ;)

That is one of the problems with his motivation. The wyld hunt is a nebulous concept that most people can't relate to. It's an unexplained compulsion that lacks the grandeur of being ordained by the gods. When most people have a calling, it is usually called by experiences that people have.. Cause, and effect. That leads to a person's yearning being relatable and understandable. Trahaern might as well have been an orr-cleaning robot from nowhere.

[Magek.4718]

@"MMOStein.3872" said:You ARE the epic hero that all the NPCS admire...this is how the story goes most of the current mmos that even attempts to tell a decent story.

FFXIV: You are the blessed hacker "Warrior of Light" that everyone depends on to defeat the Garlean/Primal threat....or do Eorzea's chores.B&S: You are the super famous Hongmoon warrior that defeated the Black Rose yet infamously can't stop getting your clan destroyed.GW2: You are the wimpy nobody that rose to become a legendary commander who led the armies that slayed 2 Elder Dragons and a fallen God.

Not sure what the story is in ESO, and I haven't cared about WoW in over 5 years, but wouldn't be surprised if those game's stories are similar to this as well. Games like BDO and Tera don't care about their story, so neither do I.

Everyone wants to be (or eventually be) a hero of some sort in a fantasy game, nobody likes being a nobody especially since we are all peasants irl anyway, if you weren't then you probably wouldn't be playing video games right now :p

In WoW, you are pretty much removed from the story entirely. Just one of the many faceless nobodies that show up for the battle in the crowd of the army of players. WoW suffers pretty badly from having a loy of characters but no main character.

I prefer GW2's style of storytelling much better. At least we have a main character.

[Warkind.6745]

I would like it if they at least made the Dragon's Watch characters act like a somewhat cohesive team. That would be pretty epic.

Everyone just ignores eachother's opinions/suggestions and does whatever they want.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Eloc Freidon.5692 said:The moment of having a regular, cool mentor is forever lost because of the Claw Island incident.

We had a cool mentor? I don't remember that. Who would this be?

Whoever they assigned to you depending on which organization you chose to join.

[Shikron.1243]

The Hero of the story, the character you play, isn't meant to be a massively powerful figure. We are just normal people, who through luck, experience, and skill have managed to survive. We come from nothing, and we earn everything we get. We also don't do everything alone, we ALWAYS HAVE HELP. We aren't superheroes.

My human warrior is JUST a warrior, he helped save Shaemor, he rescued his lost sister from the centaur. He joined the vigil -as a grunt-. He STAYED a grunt until he survived claw island, twice even. He showed himself as being reliable enough for a command position. Did his part to help the Pact form, and ultimately helped kill two Elder dragons, assisted an adorable Asuran progeny named Taimi put TWO MORE to sleep, then killed a fallen god with a magic sword and the help of a dragon.

Point is, we aren't walking up to dragons and gods and fighting them with a brick on a stick on our own. That's kind of always been the point of Guild Wars.

[Dainank.1308]

I think the main problem is that a lot of the would-be NPC heroes sort of becoming your tools to work with as they proceed to serve you. In a way, they become too submissive towards you, the commander, and feel I like they have all of the life drained out of them. They all act like assets to keep the story rolling; we need this arc to unfold, let us use this character to get the novel going! Anyway, just my opinion! I am okay with people disagreeing!

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:He is very strong yes, but name me One fight he didnt had help from NPCs.

does "dueling" joko count in here?I mean braham was somewhat caged during that part....

 

(but then storywisely that "duel" could just as well not happen - as apparently joko can summon handy cage-wave while so beaten he needs to drain his awakened to even be able to stand up >.> I wonder why he didn't try that trick on turai ossa after THAT duel didn't try for long enougth for them to actually try out various methods of killing him and ended up imprisoning him in the tomb - I won't believe for a second that he'd allow for that if he had any ability to put any resistance.....)

 

when you hink about it there was a situation tho were commander achieved "unlikely" victory on his own.....

ghosteater in realm of the lost - as long as you were not doing the story in party with friends you had no assistance in this fight and the judge was not giving us much hopes for win...

 

The difference in „Powerlevel“ between Joko and the PC is huge. Well , fighting wise.If Joko didn’t had his Immortality Hax, the fight would be over in seconds.

For the ghost eater, i dont see him as a very powerfull being.For the PC‘s standard that is.

[Zaraki.5784]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@DeanBB.4268 said:So... you'd prefer to be a sidekick to some NPC hero?

Yes. I rather a character than cant be slowed by other players, be the Lead Hero in the story to fight against some major threat. Example: in Warcraft lore, Tirion Fordring with aid of a magical signature weapon, the Ashbringer took down the Lichking with aid from heroes (players). Now how would that threat look if a single player soloed the Lich King in a world full of other players equally as strong if not stronger?

Well I don't. I'm THE hero and I don't that to be changed.I guess it all depends on personal tastes.

[hugo.4705]

Frankly, I can't tell if the Commander is a great character or not..... I mean what I've done since the behinning? I saved shaemoor, prevent a massive poison to spread at divinity reach, killed my beloved mentor tybalt, killed somes of my troops due to an illusion at mount maelstrom, killed tonn the demolisher, killed zhaitan and mordremoth but then I killed trahearne (was satisfying, can't endure him anymore) killed a fallen god too easily, joko dead like a nobody. Resolve a security issue due to undead minions within a villa at lion's arch.

I have more the impression of a very cold character, that do his job just because he have too. Joko only told the truth before dying. Everyone sacrifice themselves whereas they don't have too...I only love lvl 0-40 story, after, you are literally forced to fight dragons and endure trahearne. Don't misunderstand me, extensions stories are great, but many good turns was missed.

[Gehenna.3625]

@Eloc Freidon.5692 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Eloc Freidon.5692 said:The moment of having a regular, cool mentor is forever lost because of the Claw Island incident.

We had a cool mentor? I don't remember that. Who would this be?

Whoever they assigned to you depending on which organization you chose to join.

ahh those guys. To be honest, I can't remember any of their names but I see who you're referring to at least.

[Arzurag.7506]

GW2's story is kinda like a novel that you open up and read on occasion.Similiar to TES: Skyrim, where I was collecting all novels that told the story of potema the wolf-queen.

Tl:dr of GW2's Story:No connection to what I'm doing but interesting nonetheless.

[trixantea.1230]

Joko was a bit unique compared to the other characters. I expected to see more from him as a rival to the commander during his journey with the gods and the dragons but.. you know..

[Dami.5046]

I certainly remember Rurik or even Gwen in pre more than I remember any NPC I met when I first started playing. All I remember is being shouted at, it was raining and I had to go into a bar. Pretty shady if you ask me.
The only N.P.C that I really can re-call is poor Tybalt, but that's because of how it died and how sad it was, not because it was epic.

[Khisanth.2948]

@"Shikron.1243" said:The Hero of the story, the character you play, isn't meant to be a massively powerful figure. We are just normal people, who through luck, experience, and skill have managed to survive. We come from nothing, and we earn everything we get. We also don't do everything alone, we ALWAYS HAVE HELP. We aren't superheroes.

My human warrior is JUST a warrior, he helped save Shaemor, he rescued his lost sister from the centaur. He joined the vigil -as a grunt-. He STAYED a grunt until he survived claw island, twice even. He showed himself as being reliable enough for a command position. Did his part to help the Pact form, and ultimately helped kill two Elder dragons, assisted an adorable Asuran progeny named Taimi put TWO MORE to sleep, then killed a fallen god with a magic sword and the help of a dragon.

Point is, we aren't walking up to dragons and gods and fighting them with a brick on a stick on our own. That's kind of always been the point of Guild Wars.

Although some of us are fighting gods and dragons with a choya on a stick ...

Oh and there is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Improvised_Mace.jpg

[Deimos.4263]

@Gehenna.3625 said:ahh those guys. To be honest, I can't remember any of their names but I see who you're referring to at least.Psst Anet. I understand there's an opening in the Six. Tybalt, God of Apples. Do it.