Discussion Thread: ArenaNet News of 21 February 2019 [Merged]

[Randulf.7614]

@Cobra.6509 said:I don't need that Anet inform me about what's to come, I already know Anet doesent have faith in GW2 future, other ways why they worked at everything else but GW2 for the last 1 year and half? Anet thinks that GW2 its a dead game. About what Anet thinks about us GW2 players, remember all the lies they throw at us during this time. Sad is the same peoples who turn back on us, will come next week and tell us how good will be the future.

So not one piece of content has been releeased anywhere in gw2 in 18 months? Absolutely nothing was worked on? Like 5 maps of content, 5 episodes, 2 raids, 3 fractals, new mounts, new festival content, legendaries, new races, some hero panel enhancements?. Nothing GW2 was worked on at alland the devs only worked on other things?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Haleydawn.3764" said:Oh look, another thread pushing a subscription idea.Guarantee atleast 50% of the playerbase would leave if ANY sub is introduced, optionally or not.You don't know the actual financials NCSoft is working with, lay-offs or not. Restructuring and laying-off unnecessary roles within companies is insanely common in many corporations, not just gaming. Does it suck for those who will be laid off, yes of course. Does the game need these particular ideas 'to stay afloat'. Nope.

Spoken like a person who doesn't care about the future of the game.

Actually spoken like a person who does not have a knee jerk reaction to a "supposed" lack of financial performance from GW2, which you have neither proven nor which has been in any way indicated at currently.

Unless the cancelling of unrelated projects which were financed with income generated from GW2 to you means: GW2 was under-performing.

Kind of a weird interpretation of the currently known facts, but hey, if that's how you see things.

Companies and organizations have bottom lines. The better a company does the better everyone does, and that also translates to more stuff for all players.

and this relates to projects being cancelled and that staff layed-off unrelated to GW2 how? I mean in context to the developments in the gaming industry (highest revenues but layoffs across the board, legal actions against loot boxes and micro-transactions, etc.)?

Right, not at all. But you are using this non consequential occurances to further your own personal agenda without taking into account the history and player base of GW2.

How did Blizzard bottom-line affect their last expansion exactly? I'm not seeing a correlation between a certain amount of money X with a certain quality of content Y (after costs and a certain return are met).

@Swagger.1459 said:You should look over the public NCSOFT financial releases sometime, and come back to tell me Anet couldn’t use a boost. I’ll be waiting.

Yes, maybe we can go through those together. Last time I checked, GW2 was performing adequately with excess of millions in revenue per month and a good profit in excess of 10-20 million per year (not to shabby at around 400 employees).

Which part of the financial statement were you having issues with exactly?

@Swagger.1459 said:To the naysayers... I challenge any of you to come up with better ideas to increase revenue so the game can grow and prosper years to come. I'll be more than happy to discuss them, so let's see what y'all got!

Sure, I'll summarize it in 1 word to keep it simple: CONTENT.

So you’re telling me that NCSOFT isn’t putting GW2 under the microscope? Are you also suggesting that NCSOFT isn’t going to ask Anet how they plan to increase sales for the future?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Also maybe go to the source directly, here I'll link you the Kotaku article which also had updates made to it:https://kotaku.com/guild-wars-2-developer-arenanet-plans-for-mass-layoffs-1832799804

The part of note is this:

Around 400 people work at ArenaNet, and for the past few years they’ve been working on a number of unannounced projects, according to one person familiar with goings-on at the company. However, that person said, slow development progress combined with a lack of new games in 2018 and 2019 has led to a financial squeeze. ArenaNet’s last release, the Path of Fire expansion for Guild Wars 2, launched in September 2017.

But I'm sure some one as diligent as you was sure to get as much information as possible on this subject. Which begs to differ why you would assume that GW2 is/was the culprit for the layoffs? You wouldn't just have read 1 publication and then went into panic mode now would you?

As far as sales, that's a strawman. Obviously NCSoft will be in favor of more sales and better return. One way of achieving that might be cancelling side projects and encouraging more focus on the core brand (GW2). Maybe that is happening right now? (Which strangely also would be in line with actions taken across the industry, reduction of developer cost on projects, faster time to market, lay-offs in developer unrelated areas, etc.)

[Danikat.8537]

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:How they spend your money is largely not our business since you get a return already for it. I totally get people thinking it helps guide the business but the reality is it is t that simple.I think that people who dropped a lot of cash on gems do have a fair reason to ask this question since the return is a lot less for them than what they put into it. But even the whales will have to realize that their investment into the game, doesn't actually make them an investor. So that should be food for thought.This isn’t an Anet or NCSoft thing either, businesses owned by others often move investments around subsidiaries. Profits from other games no doubt funded gw2 which seems to be acceptable?That's pretty much true in my opinion as well.If you are hoping for full transparency then I wouldn’t hold my breath to be honest.Agreed. That will never happen

The only "return" you should expect when you buy gems is the items you purchase with those gems. If you imagine you'll get anything else - especially a say in the future development of GW2 or Anet's finances then you're always going to be disappointed, no matter how much or how little you spend, because that's never going to happen. Businesses don't work that way.

I spent £50 in my local supermarket today. That's a lot for me, but I normally spend at least about £20-£30 a week. Should I expect them to consult me on their plans for new products? Maybe ask for my thoughts on the new layout next time they re-design the store? Am I entitled to complain any time they buy in a new product which doesn't sell well, or run an advertising campaign which doesn't attract many new customers because they've wasted "my" money and I should have expected more of a return than that?

I suspect you'll say of course not - I was buying food and nothing more and shouldn't expect anything more than to get the food I paid for. So why is it any different if I buy virtual objects in a game instead?

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:It doesn't bug me that they spent the time and money. It bugs me that now we will never see the results of it. Essentially making it a waste that took a visible toll on GW2.

The annoying thing is that ArenaNet became part of Ncsoft. They probably thought it was a good idea at the time and maybe they still do. I can't judge that. But in doing so they became part of a larger context where there is no longer a single direct link between GW2 revenue and ArenaNet investment. Ncsoft is between that now. And so when certain things fall through for Ncsoft that affect ArenaNet, that's just the way it is. That will not get better as that's how it is.

That's how it's always been. NCSoft bought Anet in 2002, 3 years before GW1 was released (and only 2 years after Anet was created). There is no before and after to compare. So according to you there has never been a single direct link between GW revenue and Anet investment. Whatever problems you imagine that business arrangement to have caused have always been there, since long before any of us had a chance to hear about the game. As have the benefits of it - like Anet being able to afford to make a game at all.

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:How they spend your money is largely not our business since you get a return already for it. I totally get people thinking it helps guide the business but the reality is it is t that simple.I think that people who dropped a lot of cash on gems do have a fair reason to ask this question since the return is a lot less for them than what they put into it. But even the whales will have to realize that their investment into the game, doesn't actually make them an investor. So that should be food for thought.This isn’t an Anet or NCSoft thing either, businesses owned by others often move investments around subsidiaries. Profits from other games no doubt funded gw2 which seems to be acceptable?That's pretty much true in my opinion as well.If you are hoping for full transparency then I wouldn’t hold my breath to be honest.Agreed. That will never happen

Everyone who spent money, large amount or small, on gems got 100% of what they paid for.Not really. It is fair comment that people got what they paid for when it comes to the box game and some minimal purchases. The only people who paid more than they got for are the whales. But even then it's fair for them to ask the question but not realistic to expect an answer. I limited my spending on purpose so I get what I paid for. Some expenditure is fair on a game without a sub, but I got what I paid for. So I don't feel I have the right to ask them how they invested their surplus that came from whales and not myself. I understand they might ask the question but as I said, I do not think they should expect an answer.

Can you provide a single example of someone who, for example, spent real money on a set amount of gems and didnt get those gems?No and that's irrelevant. Getting your money's worth is that the money you spend gets you something of value that is represented by that money and that is NOT the case. Just because ArenaNet asks those prices does not mean you get a fair value for it. That's the cool thing for them because they have a monopoly there.

Don't even act like asking exorbitant prices for products is a fair and ethical business practice. It's legal no doubt but there are a lot of things that are legal that are ethical or fair. In this discussion you represent the letter of the law and I represent ethics. We're not going to agree unless I abandon my sense of ethics or you abandon the idea that laws are ethical by default.

When a game costs 30 bucks (price of an expansion including the base game) asking 8 bucks for a single skin or 24 bucks for a set of indestructible gathering tools is not a fair value. It just isn't.

If you think things in the gem store are too expensive for what they are that's an entirely seperate issue. It's still a very straight-forward business transaction. You pay a fixed amount of money and get a fixed amount of gems. You can then exchange those, again at fixed prices, for items in the game. If you don't think they're worth the price then you simply don't pay it.

Choosing to buy items you think are over-priced as a show of 'support' for a business, or because you imagine they will then feel obligated to use "your" money - which you clearly showed them you're willing to spend on things you apparently don't want - exclusively to create things you do want (and that every single one of those projects will succeed and result in a saleable product) is another approach that is always going to end in nothing but disappointment because that is simply not how any business works.

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Tanner Blackfeather.6509 said:No. No matter how big a customer you are, you don't automatically become an investor.This is what I said originally:@Gehenna.3625 said:I think that people who dropped a lot of cash on gems do have a fair reason to ask this question since the return is a lot less for them than what they put into it. But even the whales will have to realize that their investment into the game,

doesn't actually make them an investor

. So that should be food for thought.Anything else?

If you look at the rest of my post, my meaning might be a bit clearer?

You claim that people don't get what they pay for. There are two possible ways to reach that claim.1) People getting less gems than advertised. I have a hunch we would have heard about this.2) You think the purchase entitle the customer to something later that is not a part of the purchase. That would be considering the customer an investor.

[BlueJin.4127]

Inculpatus and Danikat’s initial replies were spot on, so I won’t touch that.

The only thing I’ll mention is that spending money on unreleased projects is not a blunder. The vast majority of projects never see the light of an actual release. There’s no failure here. It’s just how things work. :smile:

I’m just amazed at how many people (not really saying the OP, but just the general reaction in the forums these past few days), who don’t know anything about game companies, come here with all these accusations and assumptions of doom and gloom, and when Anet or somebody with experience in the game industry give them answers that there is no need to worry, they just reject it because it is not the answer they want to hear or believe. :disappointed:

[Goettel.4389]

You need a brighter outlook on life.

[Ashen.2907]

@BlueJin.4127 said:The only thing I’ll mention is that spending money on unreleased projects is not a blunder. The vast majority of projects never see the light of an actual release. There’s no failure here. It’s just how things work. :smile:

This.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

I don't own NCsoft stock so I don't see why I should spend time and energy worrying about their revenue streams. In my experience being more aggressive about revenue and monetization in an online game is rarely if ever of benefit to the consumer. And I'm sure a multi-billion gaming industry conglomerate is better at getting people to part with their hard earned money than me, you know being multi-billion and all.

[Cyninja.2954]

@BlueJin.4127 said:Inculpatus and Danikat’s initial replies were spot on, so I won’t touch that.

The only thing I’ll mention is that spending money on unreleased projects is not a blunder. The vast majority of projects never see the light of an actual release. There’s no failure here. It’s just how things work. :smile:

Agreed.

@BlueJin.4127 said:I’m just amazed at how many people (not really saying the OP, but just the general reaction in the forums these past few days), who don’t know anything about game companies, come here with all these accusations and assumptions of doom and gloom, and when Anet or somebody with experience in the game industry give them answers that there is no need to worry, they just reject it because it is not the answer they want to hear or believe. :disappointed:

Also agreed, though it is partly due to people being concerned for their MMO of choice.

If all had worked out (and people better believe: a lot of projects don't work out the way they are supposed too, much of which customers never hear about or at most years later in some documentary) people would be praising Arenanet for the cool new game/service/entertainment product they released.

Does it suck that those project are likely put on hold? Absolutely, even more that the people working on them will likely be let go.

Does this spell the end for Arenanet and GW2? Highly unlikely given the revenue of the franchise (never say never though).

[Leo G.4501]

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:How they spend your money is largely not our business since you get a return already for it. I totally get people thinking it helps guide the business but the reality is it is t that simple.I think that people who dropped a lot of cash on gems do have a fair reason to ask this question since the return is a lot less for them than what they put into it. But even the whales will have to realize that their investment into the game, doesn't actually make them an investor. So that should be food for thought.This isn’t an Anet or NCSoft thing either, businesses owned by others often move investments around subsidiaries. Profits from other games no doubt funded gw2 which seems to be acceptable?That's pretty much true in my opinion as well.If you are hoping for full transparency then I wouldn’t hold my breath to be honest.Agreed. That will never happen

Everyone who spent money, large amount or small, on gems got 100% of what they paid for.Not really. It is fair comment that people got what they paid for when it comes to the box game and some minimal purchases. The only people who paid more than they got for are the whales. But even then it's fair for them to ask the question but not realistic to expect an answer. I limited my spending on purpose so I get what I paid for. Some expenditure is fair on a game without a sub, but I got what I paid for. So I don't feel I have the right to ask them how they invested their surplus that came from whales and not myself. I understand they might ask the question but as I said, I do not think they should expect an answer.

Can you provide a single example of someone who, for example, spent real money on a set amount of gems and didnt get those gems?No and that's irrelevant. Getting your money's worth is that the money you spend gets you something of value that is represented by that money and that is NOT the case. Just because ArenaNet asks those prices does not mean you get a fair value for it. That's the cool thing for them because they have a monopoly there.

The part that you forget is that the value of something is determined by the customer. How that translates to cash monies is going to shift from person to person. Someone who has a salary of $80,000 a year is going to value the $100 gem package differently than the person who makes $24,000 a year and those people are going to value that same package differently than someone who makes $200,000 a year but runs multiple small businesses and has their money invested in specific ways.

Fair value is subjective. The above guy who makes $200,000 a year might feel paying $100 dollars for in-game fluff is a rip-off despite him having far more money while the guy with $80,000 might feel it's a bargain as he could easily part with some pocket change in exchange for 10+ hours of in-game farming. Someone who sees enough value in a product to part with their money is agreeing that the product has value enough to buy. That means it IS fair value to them.

Don't even act like asking exorbitant prices for products is a fair and ethical business practice.

If it's not fair or ethical, then do not spend money on it.

In this discussion you represent the letter of the law and I represent ethics. We're not going to agree unless I abandon my sense of ethics or you abandon the idea that laws are ethical by default.

No. There's a difference between arguing from an ethics standpoint and arguing from a subjective standpoint. Ethics don't play a part in this because no service that is necessary for the upholding of ethics is being withheld. It's actually UNethical to make the argument you're making, saying that you deserve more for what amounts to a choice of entertainment so someone else should work HARDER or for LESS pay to adhere to your subjective viewpoint.

[Elizabeth Reed.9173]

With the current layoffs you are seeing the ending of gw2. It is only a matter of time before the game gets shutdown. Revenue streams will not help a game that has a consistent player base of less than 50k.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Elizabeth Reed.9173 said:With the current layoffs you are seeing the ending of gw2. It is only a matter of time before the game gets shutdown. Revenue streams will not help a game that has a consistent player base of less than 50k.

Average revenue per month last year: 6+ million $Average revenue per player if the player base is at 50,000: 6,000,000 / 50,000 = 120 $

Holy kitten, I thought I was spending money on this game but turns out, I am at the absolute bottom end with 49,999 players spending vastly more than me per month... :o

You are not good with numbers are you?

[kharmin.7683]

@Elizabeth Reed.9173 said:With the current layoffs you are seeing the ending of gw2. It is only a matter of time before the game gets shutdown. Revenue streams will not help a game that has a consistent player base of less than 50k.

And you are getting your facts from where exactly?

[b k.1648]

A relatively dark and humid place.

As too many people have already pointed out, NCSoft wasn't happy with the number of people working on a project that hadn't gathered any revenue yet. "Solving" some mythical problem with GW2's revenues by introducing a subscription scheme, when most MMOs that actually were in dire straits abandoned their subscription schemes because they needed more players fast...

Well, if you solve a problem that doesn't exist by creating that very problem, then that might be a great idea. GW2 genuinely would be in trouble after that.

[Blude.6812]

OP-- just read the 1st paragraph. (and anyone else that is OVER REACTING, Elizabeth Reed.9173, to the lay off news) https://www.pcgamer.com/guild-wars-studio-arenanet-will-reportedly-undergo-layoffs/

[Swagger.1459]

@"Blude.6812" said:OP-- just read the 1st paragraph. (and anyone else that is OVER REACTING, Elizabeth Reed.9173, to the lay off news) https://www.pcgamer.com/guild-wars-studio-arenanet-will-reportedly-undergo-layoffs/

Let me walk you through this...

https://massivelyop.com/2019/02/21/rumor-guild-wars-2-developer-arenanet-is-prepping-for-heavy-layoffs/

... The publication says it’s acquired a memo sent by NCsoft CEO Songyee Yoon in which Yoon says ArenaNet as it was wasn’t “sustainable” and that the “live game business revenue is declining as [its] franchises age, delays in development on PC and mobile have created further drains against our revenue projects, while our operating costs in the west have increased.”

" NCsoft CEO Songyee Yoon"

"Yoon says ArenaNet as it was wasn’t “sustainable”

“live game business revenue is declining as [its] franchises age"

PLUS

"delays in development on PC and mobile have created further drains against our revenue projects"

NOW ADD IN

"operating costs in the west have increased.”

GONNA RECAP...

“live game business revenue is declining" WHILE "operating costs in the west have increased.”

This game IS a business period. Getting rid of employees isn't some long term fix that allows Anet to just stick with the status quo. Businesses are fueled by money, and if you don't make money then you don't have a business...

[Blude.6812]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Blude.6812" said:OP-- just read the 1st paragraph. (and anyone else that is OVER REACTING, Elizabeth Reed.9173, to the lay off news)

https://www.pcgamer.com/guild-wars-studio-arenanet-will-reportedly-undergo-layoffs/

Let me walk you through this...

https://massivelyop.com/2019/02/21/rumor-guild-wars-2-developer-arenanet-is-prepping-for-heavy-layoffs/

... The publication says it’s acquired a memo sent by NCsoft CEO Songyee Yoon in which Yoon says ArenaNet as it was wasn’t “sustainable” and that the “live game business revenue is declining as [its] franchises age, delays in development on PC and mobile have created further drains against our revenue projects, while our operating costs in the west have increased.”

" NCsoft CEO Songyee Yoon"

"Yoon says ArenaNet as it was wasn’t “sustainable”

“live game business revenue is declining as [its] franchises age"

PLUS

"delays in development on PC and mobile have created further drains against our revenue projects"

NOW ADD IN

"operating costs in the west have increased.”

GONNA RECAP...

“live game business revenue is declining" WHILE "operating costs in the west have increased.”

This game IS a business period. Getting rid of employees isn't some long term fix that allows Anet to just stick with the status quo. Businesses are fueled by money, and if you don't make money then you don't have a business...

" ....the Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 game services will not be affected, nor is any upcoming game content canceled" 'nuff said.

[Palador.2170]

@Swagger.1459 said:To the naysayers... I challenge any of you to come up with better ideas to increase revenue so the game can grow and prosper years to come. I'll be more than happy to discuss them, so let's see what y'all got!

Okay, let's see what I can come up with...

Well, first of all, we're looking at Net Revenue, not Gross. Gross is simply how much money comes in, Net is that after all costs have been taken out. Net is the important one here, the profit.

Now, GW2 is... hummm, well... we need to wait and see how the whole lootbox thing comes out, so no pushing on that at the moment. And you can't just pull an expansion or three out of your kitten, so boosting sales isn't going to be easy. How about we cut down some of that overhead instead, so Net comes closer to Gross?

First of all, let's look and see what can be cut. Well, it looks like ANet has some stuff in development that's really not looking too promising. They're a good studio and all, but honestly the newer stuff isn't something they're known for. Let's cut that out, and leave that to other studios that we can pick up later if they look to have something really promising to sell. And ANet has their own publishing arm, but NCSoft has one as well. That's redundant, so we can get rid of the publishing side of ANet and have them go back to using NCSoft's. These changes should have little impact on the GW/GW2 income, so... yeah. That does it. More Net Revenue.

Look, I know we're talking about peoples' jobs here. I'm not heartless. But from a purely practical point of view, NCSoft is doing just what you seem to want them to do. You just don't like it.

[Trise.2865]

Two. Two Revenues.

Now think about how much Lineage revenue was "squandered" on Guild Wars.

[Arda.2490]

Hello guys, we cannot give up on ArenaNet teams just like that. We must at least try to do something. For 14 years, they've always listened to our community, it's' now our job to do something for them !I know that whatever we do, there's only a slight chance that it works out, but we have to try regardless. We are tens of thousands on that forum, hundreds of thousands on their game, that counts for something. I think NCSoft wouldn't appreciate that kind of bad publicity.For starters, let me give you 2 propositions to act :

-As a support to Anet teams, change the color of your characters in white and red. Spread he word ! That a huge amount of players acknowledge what's going on and do the same.-Tweet your support with the tags @NCSOFT_West #SaveArenaNet

I hope to read more of your ideas as a comment to this thread. The aim is to be heard and show NCSoft we are plenty to support Anet.

[Kirin.7306]

Yes bring back GW1 team

[Loosmaster.8263]

What goes around comes around...

[Leo G.4501]

@Swagger.1459 said:To the naysayers... I challenge any of you to come up with better ideas to increase revenue so the game can grow and prosper years to come. I'll be more than happy to discuss them, so let's see what y'all got!

This is one reason I harshly criticize these forums, because people are very willing to literally try to silence people for posting ideas or suggestions. It's one thing to criticize a suggestion as bad, it's a whole other thing to dismiss it and tell people to go away, stop posting or report your posts. I mean, quite a few posts in this thread should be reported as not constructive or off topic.

Derailing a thread is against the forum rules and I've had my posts deleted for that very reason. It's not even that hard to protect your post from being off-topic. Just make part of your post about the topic.

As for monetizing their game better, I'd say simply asking players what they want to see or at the very least, look at some low-hanging fruit and get some bucks out of it. People have asked for capes since the beginning. Figure that kitten out and put some backpiece capes in this game (might give me a reason to use those bulky shoulder pieces if they hang from them properly). And this isn't me suggesting something to counter some new financial trend, I've been suggesting stuff that I'd buy for ages.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

I wanted a new dyejob for my characters anyway. Now I'm sure that a nameless shareholder suit at NCsoft will take a break from screaming "MORE GROWTH!" and look at my awesome colors, something that will certainly change their mind about firing all those people.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

NCSoft has made a decision about the imminent layoffs so that won't change. ANet has said that GW2 will not be affected insofar as the service being available and no cancellation of planned content.

The best thing we can do for ANet would be for players to stop saying that the sky is falling. The best thing we can do for the staff losing their jobs is to wish them well.

So:

• Until and unless we hear more, the game will be fine. The alarmists are just being alarmist because reasons.
• Best of luck to those impacted.