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Discussion Thread: ArenaNet News of 21 February 2019 [Merged]


Gaile Gray.6029

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@RubberDougie.2750 said:

@Danikat.8537 said:Saying we'll still get Season 5 after Season 4 actually tells us a lot. It means their plan hasn't changed as a result of this decision, and we're going to get at least 7 more living story releases, which if we assume the absolute bare minimum of 2 months per episode gives us another 12 months of content. In other words they've confirmed their plans for the next year or more.

According to various rumours and articles I've seen most of the layoffs will be related to one or more un-related projects. Which as I understand it isn't that unusual in the games industry. Developers usually have more than 1 game they're working on and you have to do some work on it before you can decide if it's worth taking through to release or not. If not that project is gone and those people need new jobs. Sometimes that will be within the same company, sometimes not. It sucks, but it's not unusual.

Ls releases are more like every 3 to 4 months.

That's why I said 2 months is the absolute minimum. The schedule Anet aim for is 1 release every 2-3 months, and sometimes it's closer to 4 months.

So yes I could have said that with 1 episode left in season 4 and at least 6 in season 5 (assuming it's the same length as previous seasons, it could be 8 like season 2) we know the plan for the next 2 years. But without knowing when each episode will be released we don't know it will take that long. We do however know it will take at least 1 year to get through Season 5.

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I HATE NC-SOFT! Deeply. It's sad that a wonderful company like ArenaNet is owned by that greedy monster of NC-Soft. They already ruined other games because of the profit at all costs. "merging ArenaNet and NCSoft’s publishing divisions in the process" is my worst nightmare coming true (at least regarding videogames ofc).GW2 is probably the best example (for now) of MMO that it's respectful for the customers, that helped to create a good community (at least in PvE) with clever and innovative ideas for the gameplay. If you played others MMOs, you know what I'm talking about, this is not something taken for granted.

There have been always posts of complains here and there, but there are always also many posts to thank ArenaNet for their work and to praise the job of their staff. And this is something very rare nowadays in the MMO market. I wish all the best to their employees, really. Let us know where you will end up. Hopefully all together in another good company, so we will make sure to try your next projects. It will be another wonderful game for sure.

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@derd.6413 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:Production is too slow, better lay of some workers so we produce even less and people spend even less money on our company

the lay offs are because of an unannounced project being cancelled, gw2 is mostly unaffected by itFor all we know, one of those unannounced projects might have been the next expac. At this moment i'd really want to hear Anet's official confirmation that there
will
be a next expac, and that they aren't going back to ls-only release mode.If that's not true, i'd really want to hear it now as well, but a silence on this issue i'll also consider a kind of answer confirming that the game did get into a lower investment life support mode.

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I think it’s rather unfair to ask us to be kept in the loop when people’s jobs are on the line and they are waiting for communication

I don’t really consider it much of our business either.

Having been through this myself multiple times. I know how disrespectful and upsetting it can be having it discussed by all and sundry with wild speculation all over the place, especially when employees aren’t fully in the loop.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:Production is too slow, better lay of some workers so we produce even less and people spend even less money on our company

the lay offs are because of an unannounced project being cancelled, gw2 is mostly unaffected by itFor all we know, one of those unannounced projects might have been the next expac. At this moment i'd really want to hear Anet's official confirmation that there
will
be a next expac, and that they aren't going back to ls-only release mode.If that's not true, i'd really want to hear it now as well, but a silence on this issue i'll also consider a kind of answer confirming that the game did get into a lower investment life support mode.

Yeah just thinking the same, but their special statement made me lost:"We will release expansion level living story episodes" just whut.Btw was in their very long video saying lws5 will follow lws4

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@Danikat.8537 said:Saying we'll still get Season 5 after Season 4 actually tells us a lot. It means their plan hasn't changed as a result of this decision, and we're going to get at least 7 more living story releases, which if we assume the absolute bare minimum of 2 months per episode gives us another 12 months of content. In other words they've confirmed their plans for the next year or more.

According to various rumours and articles I've seen most of the layoffs will be related to one or more un-related projects. Which as I understand it isn't that unusual in the games industry. Developers usually have more than 1 game they're working on and you have to do some work on it before you can decide if it's worth taking through to release or not. If not that project is gone and those people need new jobs. Sometimes that will be within the same company, sometimes not. It sucks, but it's not unusual.The most worrying thing is that the next expac wasn't announced yet, so it may very well be one of those cancelled unannounced projects.

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@Randulf.7614 said:I think it’s rather unfair to ask us to be kept in the loop when people’s jobs are on the line and they are waiting for communication

I don’t really consider it much of our business either.

Having been through this myself multiple times. I know how disrespectful and upsetting it can be having it discussed by all and sundry with wild speculation all over the place, especially when employees aren’t fully in the loop.

This. Also, to the op's point, the game will eventually end. Probably not as a result of this, but eventually. Things end, it's inevitable. Enjoy the moment while it is available . . .

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@Puma.3645 said:yes, when u log on and the core game is just forgotten and only for leveling players, and we are stuck with only a few active maps every 3 months to play in, makes the game feel very hollow.

We must be playing different games.. I see Core maps alive most days. In game that has gone past it's first few anniversaries, what do you expect of core content other than levelling, WB's, event running for collections/legendary's, material farming, Personal Story and Side Story content, Masteries... pretty sure the core content has had more than one passover since launch. Wasn't there even an overhaul for the new player experience some years back as well.As much as I don't like megaservers for various reasons, one thing you can't deny is that it helps to condense players into maps rather than have them strung out over a number of server map copies... and yes all MMO's suffer declines in numbers, pretty much after the first few months from launch - ANET is no different in that respect. The crux is are you enjoying the game as a whole, not just because some older maps are less populated now than they were 5 yrs ago maybe.GW2 has not stood still, which is a good thing generally so older content will always become.. old. One thing I could get behind is newer content relies on long winded weapon collections, convoluted by item scarcity or time gating.. that to me is a bigger issue going forward because once that content is done there is simply no real value in going back to maps like Kourna, Jahai and Thunderpeaks other than for kittens and giggles once in a while unless something is tied to them again in the future. I mean look at the wasted efforts bringing Suns refuge to us.. I prefer to pop back to Blazeridge and run a Shatterer or two today than going back there to do .. nothing of value.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:The article has been updated:

"We can confirm that due to the cancellation of unannounced projects, ArenaNet will make staff reductions," the statement reads. "This is part of a larger organizational restructuring within NCSOFT in the west, but the Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 game services will not be affected, nor is any upcoming game content cancelled."

While I am still very much hoping everything works out well for each employee, this could be a refocusing on the core GW2 branch.

This also contradicts (if all applies as stated) quite a few of this threads 'I told you so" statements. If applicable, this move only reinforces the approach: stick with what is making you money.

Well let's hope that is true.. As much as I have found issue with much of the decision making and direction of the game of late, I wouldn't wish anyone to loose their employment from a studio that has brought so much enjoyment to me and countless others over the past gawd knows how many years. Refocusing more concerted effort onto GW2 could and should be good for all concerned, but I hope that doesn't spell even more steers towards monetisation of game content. Gemstore fluff I have no issue with but lets hope it doesn't push any further out from what they have already in efforts to monetise aspects of the game - that is a path they shouldn't want to take now, they need to entice players in/back to the game not away from it.

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@alcopaul.2156 said:

@"Paolino.8320" said:The gaming industry makes me sad. ANet employees deserve more than this.

Read the full article here:

mobile gaming has become a very big market. and almost all people in the world are carrying mobile phones anywhere.

it's almost certain that desktop gaming is becoming legacy gaming already (you have to be confined in a room and have a dedicated internet connection). but you have to think that full gaming experience from a desktop is very far from a mobile phone.

As long as there's a market ppl will serve it. Let's not pretend that there's no money to make with PC games anymore. Games like RDR2 , Apex Legends or even WoW in its weakest state ever tell a very different story.

But if you think that in 2019 2 hours of content each 3-4 months with 90% of rewards of a p2p game should go into the cash shop for prices that rival full expac prices, then you don't have to be surprised if you serve a niche of an already niche market. And if you want the big money, that's not where it is to find.

So either change your content to make it more sustainable and longterm appealing to get more ppl playing your game or don't and face the consequences

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@hugo.4705 said:

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:Production is too slow, better lay of some workers so we produce even less and people spend even less money on our company

the lay offs are because of an unannounced project being cancelled, gw2 is mostly unaffected by itFor all we know, one of those unannounced projects might have been the next expac. At this moment i'd really want to hear Anet's official confirmation that there
will
be a next expac, and that they aren't going back to ls-only release mode.If that's not true, i'd really want to hear it now as well, but a silence on this issue i'll also consider a kind of answer confirming that the game did get into a lower investment life support mode.

Yeah just thinking the same, but their special statement made me lost:"We will release expansion level living story episodes" just whut.Btw was in their very long video saying lws5 will follow lws4

Expansion level living stories?Sounds very vague. Like, more content filled maps, elite specs along the way, and enticing masteries?As for the actual content, who is going to pay for it? Is anet going to produce a small expansion and give it for free?I wouldn't mind paying a small fee for season 5, i doubt many people will mind.I'm just worried about anets financial status. I don't want them to go bankrupt. I love tyria too much

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Not surprised at all. 400 employees is a large number to sustain, and most of those employees didn't give any money worth back. Anet was working on a number of other projects/games, while also taking people that worked on GW2 to work on those other projects.

Thus, GW2 actually had fewer people working on it and it showed in the released content. With shorter content came less income because people just got bored, or like me, refused to give any money until actual content is released. Anet needed money to develop those other projects, so they pushed for even more gem store content. But it backfired.Even though they got enough income to sustain and develop GW2, they didn't as whole for all the projects they worked on. I am sure I would not be so wrong if I say that at least 200 of employees worked on other projects. On projects that didn't give any money back, it was all just wasted money in the end.

Then big daddy NCSoft step up, and rightfully so, they said Anet to cut the crap, and to focus on what is released. GW2 still gets more than enough profit, but it is overshadowed by the expenses of all other projects. Remove other projects, remove 30% of people that worked on it, and suddenly you have more than enough profit to really sustain and develop current games (GW and GW2) you have, while maybe even work on one other project that actually has some future (instead of 2+).

If anything, this is a reality check for Anet. You can't work on multiple projects at the same time if that means you will lessen the development of your current games that gives you profit - which they did do. You cannot continue to be the company that gives promises - both for us for GW2, and NCSoft for other projects while breaking them left and right. Big daddy NCSoft will not accept cancellation of multiple projects and constant start on new projects. Start using the money in a way it should be - to produce the result.

NCSoft is NOT an evil company here. They are right. It is very simple. Use the money to produce results. No more slacking and wasting a huge amount of money without any RoI.

Now that Anet will reduce the number of employees that worked on other projects, they will actually have far more income to work with for GW2. GW2 employees are not affected by this layoffs, at least not in a large number. Probably some of those employees will come back to work once again on GW2. Maybe we will finally get more than 1-2 developers to work on WvW and more than 1 to work on the Alliance system. Maybe we will get 1-2 more to work on PvP, same with raids.

I can only see the positives for this layoffs in terms of how it affects GW2. It does suck for those other people cuz they will lose a job. But I am here for Guild Wars, and my game suffered for far too long. Focus on what you have already Anet. I am sure that 1 more project to work on would not be the problem, even for NCSoft, but to work on more without realizing them, yeah, I would make the same move as NCSoft.

Thank you NCSoft for giving Anet the reality check.

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@yefluke.3168 said:For me, it is not a good sign at all. Management can tell anything to keep us playing GW2.Then, they just shut it down when they can not gain suffice revenue anymore.

From now on, we will get very delay LS5 and no new expansion.

ANet never really honest to us (even their staffs). However, They don't tell exact 'yes ' or 'no' answer, only tell some vague answer. ( everything will be ok..., we have those we have that ..... , or just keep quiet) just to keep people from panicking. - well that the business and management job.

1.5 - 2 years from now is actualy very long nowadays. the consummer behavior drastically change over a short period of times.They get bored more easily if the new content wasn't added enough. I don't think people can wait that long for new content. they might leave the game before.

As i played the game for 3 years and also own Nintendo switch, iPhone ... there are so much more to choose and offer new game regularly to keep everything freshbut GW2 didn't ... they added mediocre map to grind every 3-4 months. (but already get bored after 1st month) ... i miss the lively environment when POF launched everything so fresh and a lot things to explore. now it is just vast deserted land.

I think this is the sign of declining of the game. it is surely not gonna be great again. Even if there is new expansion. it is gonna just 'ok' .it's time to countdown folk.

Personally I found PoF to be pretty poor content other than the maps looked real nice (something that has never wavered with GW1/GW2) but I do find the maps to be less populated and lacking in a pull unlike HoT maps which offer a lot more group and map wide options.But that's just it all content is pretty subjective imo, we all have different tastes likes and dislikes. Personally I think the cadence of content in years gone by was the issue surrounding the quality of things like LS. This past year or two I have felt a marked improvement and enjoy it much more and yes it takes a little longer to deliver it, but in between we do get other additions like QoL, bug fixes, balance passes, and of course events and gemstore… so to me I think ANET have been striving to strike a perfect balance, but as a company somethings have not worked as well as expected both with GW2 and aside from it.As for console games.. well how many CoD clones do we have, how many Candy crush clones do we see on mobile, .. they are different horses for different courses.I do agree on one thing though.. expacs will be needed to keep players engaged, LS fills gaps and sparks interest but the game as a whole needs an expansion every 18-24 months imo and it needs to start incorporating something for each of the gamemodes not just PvE otherwise the shrinkage in other portions of the game only serve to hurt the game as a whole.. just throwing a mount in or a few new achievements doesn't do justice to the game .. lets hope the refocus can do just that, but I will be honest and say I to fear this might also be a veiled message to say no more expacs in the foreseeable future and more gemstore push to pay for any updates at all..... which I think will do more harm than good at this point.

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@derd.6413 said:

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:Production is too slow, better lay of some workers so we produce even less and people spend even less money on our company

the lay offs are because of an unannounced project being cancelled, gw2 is mostly unaffected by it

Saying its "mostly" unaffected just means we don't know what the effects will be.

"We can confirm that due to the cancellation of unannounced projects, ArenaNet will make staff reductions. This is part of a larger organizational restructuring within NCSOFT in the west, but the Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 game services will not be affected, nor is any upcoming game content canceled."

That means the servers will stay on and no upcoming GW2 content has been cancelled, but it may be delayed. Given the already slow pace of releases since PoF that's bad news.

Of course, we also don't know what they mean by "upcoming content" or how many of those unannounced projects were GW2 related.

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@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:Production is too slow, better lay of some workers so we produce even less and people spend even less money on our company

the lay offs are because of an unannounced project being cancelled, gw2 is mostly unaffected by itFor all we know, one of those unannounced projects might have been the next expac. At this moment i'd really want to hear Anet's official confirmation that there
will
be a next expac, and that they aren't going back to ls-only release mode.If that's not true, i'd really want to hear it now as well, but a silence on this issue i'll also consider a kind of answer confirming that the game did get into a lower investment life support mode.

Yeah just thinking the same, but their special statement made me lost:"We will release expansion level living story episodes" just whut.Btw was in their very long video saying lws5 will follow lws4

Expansion level living stories?Sounds very vague. Like, more content filled maps, elite specs along the way, and enticing masteries?As for the actual content, who is going to pay for it? Is anet going to produce a small expansion and give it for free?I wouldn't mind paying a small fee for season 5, i doubt many people will mind.I'm just worried about anets financial status. I don't want them to go bankrupt. I love tyria too much

to me it says they're upping the quality not the quantity. (like they'll release one mount with a LW episode or have a dragon boss fight)

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@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:Production is too slow, better lay of some workers so we produce even less and people spend even less money on our company

the lay offs are because of an unannounced project being cancelled, gw2 is mostly unaffected by itFor all we know, one of those unannounced projects might have been the next expac. At this moment i'd really want to hear Anet's official confirmation that there
will
be a next expac, and that they aren't going back to ls-only release mode.If that's not true, i'd really want to hear it now as well, but a silence on this issue i'll also consider a kind of answer confirming that the game did get into a lower investment life support mode.

Yeah just thinking the same, but their special statement made me lost:"We will release expansion level living story episodes" just whut.Btw was in their very long video saying lws5 will follow lws4

Expansion level living stories?Sounds very vague. Like, more content filled maps, elite specs along the way, and enticing masteries?As for the actual content, who is going to pay for it? Is anet going to produce a small expansion and give it for free?I wouldn't mind paying a small fee for season 5, i doubt many people will mind.I'm just worried about anets financial status. I don't want them to go bankrupt. I love tyria too much

Since ArenaNet is being merged with other Ncsoft departments I don't think we can speak in terms of them going bankrupt. I do think it means that ArenaNet will no longer be its own unit dedicated to their products. In fact I believe that it's already longer that they've supported other Ncsoft projects but now it's going to be more of a name than an actual company if you will and GW2 will be just one of the things they'll be doing. You could say that they are being re-organized or restructured because otherwise they would become financially unviable. All in all I'm sure GW2 will go on as long as people spend money on it. What I'm not sure about is if their business model will include box sales anymore as a priority going forward. That would indeed mean an end to expansions and content being delivered via LS updates instead. I doubt that it will be a comparable amount of content but it's probably the best they can do going forward. If that's true then it will also mean that the gem store will become more important as it will be the sole priority for revenue, the current expansions being what they are. Time will tell I'm sure and I don't know if I'm right about all of this but it is a plausible scenario and that's why it is a concern for me.

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@Jura.2170 said:If Anet really needs more money to keep going, would it help if they removed turning gold into gems?

How would you feel if they did that?

That would make it worse. I buy gems with gold, so someone is incentivized into buying gems. If I couldn't buy gems with gold, I wouldn't buy gems. I'm certain I'm not the only one who does it this way.

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@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:Production is too slow, better lay of some workers so we produce even less and people spend even less money on our company

the lay offs are because of an unannounced project being cancelled, gw2 is mostly unaffected by itFor all we know, one of those unannounced projects might have been the next expac. At this moment i'd really want to hear Anet's official confirmation that there
will
be a next expac, and that they aren't going back to ls-only release mode.If that's not true, i'd really want to hear it now as well, but a silence on this issue i'll also consider a kind of answer confirming that the game did get into a lower investment life support mode.

Yeah just thinking the same, but their special statement made me lost:"We will release expansion level living story episodes" just whut.Btw was in their very long video saying lws5 will follow lws4

Expansion level living stories?Sounds very vague. Like, more content filled maps, elite specs along the way, and enticing masteries?As for the actual content, who is going to pay for it? Is anet going to produce a small expansion and give it for free?I wouldn't mind paying a small fee for season 5, i doubt many people will mind.I'm just worried about anets financial status. I don't want them to go bankrupt. I love tyria too much

Since ArenaNet is being merged with other Ncsoft departments I don't think we can speak in terms of them going bankrupt. I do think it means that ArenaNet will no longer be its own unit dedicated to their products. In fact I believe that it's already longer that they've supported other Ncsoft projects but now it's going to be more of a name than an actual company if you will and GW2 will be just one of the things they'll be doing. You could say that they are being re-organized or restructured because otherwise they would become financially unviable. All in all I'm sure GW2 will go on as long as people spend money on it. What I'm not sure about is if their business model will include box sales anymore as a priority going forward. That would indeed mean an end to expansions and content being delivered via LS updates instead. I doubt that it will be a comparable amount of content but it's probably the best they can do going forward. If that's true then it will also mean that the gem store will become more important as it will be the sole priority for revenue, the current expansions being what they are. Time will tell I'm sure and I don't know if I'm right about all of this but it is a plausible scenario and that's why it is a concern for me.

just wondering: why would NCsoft stop with xpacs given how successful they were?

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@derd.6413 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:Production is too slow, better lay of some workers so we produce even less and people spend even less money on our company

the lay offs are because of an unannounced project being cancelled, gw2 is mostly unaffected by itFor all we know, one of those unannounced projects might have been the next expac. At this moment i'd really want to hear Anet's official confirmation that there
will
be a next expac, and that they aren't going back to ls-only release mode.If that's not true, i'd really want to hear it now as well, but a silence on this issue i'll also consider a kind of answer confirming that the game did get into a lower investment life support mode.

Yeah just thinking the same, but their special statement made me lost:"We will release expansion level living story episodes" just whut.Btw was in their very long video saying lws5 will follow lws4

Expansion level living stories?Sounds very vague. Like, more content filled maps, elite specs along the way, and enticing masteries?As for the actual content, who is going to pay for it? Is anet going to produce a small expansion and give it for free?I wouldn't mind paying a small fee for season 5, i doubt many people will mind.I'm just worried about anets financial status. I don't want them to go bankrupt. I love tyria too much

Since ArenaNet is being merged with other Ncsoft departments I don't think we can speak in terms of them going bankrupt. I do think it means that ArenaNet will no longer be its own unit dedicated to their products. In fact I believe that it's already longer that they've supported other Ncsoft projects but now it's going to be more of a name than an actual company if you will and GW2 will be just one of the things they'll be doing. You could say that they are being re-organized or restructured because otherwise they would become financially unviable. All in all I'm sure GW2 will go on as long as people spend money on it. What I'm not sure about is if their business model will include box sales anymore as a priority going forward. That would indeed mean an end to expansions and content being delivered via LS updates instead. I doubt that it will be a comparable amount of content but it's probably the best they can do going forward. If that's true then it will also mean that the gem store will become more important as it will be the sole priority for revenue, the current expansions being what they are. Time will tell I'm sure and I don't know if I'm right about all of this but it is a plausible scenario and that's why it is a concern for me.

just wondering: why would NCsoft stop with xpacs given how successful they were?

Agree with that, on income graphics, we saw they got more revenue when releasing an Xpac (2x or 3x the normal amount), whereas pretty low during lw episode.

Hot = first peak, 2015Pof = second peak, 2017

BPtFrXQ.png

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@Owon Dyah.3905 said:i know of mmo made by 10 ppl....I really wonder what the hell 400 ppl do on a single game...

I'm not worried about game's future, i'm more worried will those laid off guys get new job somewhere else.They didn’t have 400 people working on GW2. A majority of them were moved to other projects in ANet leaving GW2. Now that those projects were forcibly stopped and canceled, we can only hope that ANet completely focuses on GW2.

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@derd.6413 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:Production is too slow, better lay of some workers so we produce even less and people spend even less money on our company

the lay offs are because of an unannounced project being cancelled, gw2 is mostly unaffected by itFor all we know, one of those unannounced projects might have been the next expac. At this moment i'd really want to hear Anet's official confirmation that there
will
be a next expac, and that they aren't going back to ls-only release mode.If that's not true, i'd really want to hear it now as well, but a silence on this issue i'll also consider a kind of answer confirming that the game did get into a lower investment life support mode.

Yeah just thinking the same, but their special statement made me lost:"We will release expansion level living story episodes" just whut.Btw was in their very long video saying lws5 will follow lws4

Expansion level living stories?Sounds very vague. Like, more content filled maps, elite specs along the way, and enticing masteries?As for the actual content, who is going to pay for it? Is anet going to produce a small expansion and give it for free?I wouldn't mind paying a small fee for season 5, i doubt many people will mind.I'm just worried about anets financial status. I don't want them to go bankrupt. I love tyria too much

Since ArenaNet is being merged with other Ncsoft departments I don't think we can speak in terms of them going bankrupt. I do think it means that ArenaNet will no longer be its own unit dedicated to their products. In fact I believe that it's already longer that they've supported other Ncsoft projects but now it's going to be more of a name than an actual company if you will and GW2 will be just one of the things they'll be doing. You could say that they are being re-organized or restructured because otherwise they would become financially unviable. All in all I'm sure GW2 will go on as long as people spend money on it. What I'm not sure about is if their business model will include box sales anymore as a priority going forward. That would indeed mean an end to expansions and content being delivered via LS updates instead. I doubt that it will be a comparable amount of content but it's probably the best they can do going forward. If that's true then it will also mean that the gem store will become more important as it will be the sole priority for revenue, the current expansions being what they are. Time will tell I'm sure and I don't know if I'm right about all of this but it is a plausible scenario and that's why it is a concern for me.

just wondering: why would NCsoft stop with xpacs given how successful they were?Well I wondered that as well, but if they did that well, why aren't we getting one this year but another LS season taking us well into 2020 instead. I think that the simple reality is that Ncsoft had other priorities that they needed ArenaNet for and this caused delays for their plans for a next expansion. The question will be that after the merge and job cuts if expansions are still viable for this new set up. That's why I wonder if we'll actually get another expansion.
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