Do you think the PVP has way too steep learning curve and it is dropping population cause of it ?

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The learning curve of 3 point conquest is very steep, but is likely only a small part of why population has dropped so much. Most players have little to no sense of map awareness, or when and where to rotate. Ive lost track of the number of games where my team would completely throw away a huge lead by rotating into outnumbered fights, not being aware of respawns, not noticing when your own team is dead etc. Being good at fighting and killing other players isnt always enough to win.

[Interpretor.3091]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Hm, I always considered the "problem" in this the regard to the fact that players want to do 360-no-scope 10-man killstreaks in 10 seconds so they can feel cool, when in fact GW2 sPvP is far more complex on a tactical and strategical level because they need to control an entire map, requiring people to think. And thinking hurts.

I wouldn’t boil it down to this, Mmo players want a challenging learning curve, thats why they play Mmos. People want to be challenged and a good learning curve is important and keeps people invested for long periods of time too.The players that have PvPd from the beginning stick with this game because they have invested so much time to learning.Similarly, League of Legends has like what, 40-50 champions now? 100s of different items, runes, and skill trees. Learning curve is just as hard imo. Difference is population and lack of resources to learn for new players. LoL (riot games) provides a plethora of tutorials and also has the population to back it up. MM is better also much better due to population, community tutorials are more available, etc.

People want to be challenged and learn, but they need the resources to do it. Anet needed to take the first steps years ago to provide this, and then the playerbase would make up the rest. Riot games was constantly making tutorials for their new characters. Now community content creators and sites like Op.gg and proguides.com make up the rest. Who do we have in Gw2 that actually makes tutorial/learning content for PvP? Shorts? Jawgeous? They both quit doing it I think.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Anyone interested vallun just did a startng pvp guide

[xiGenocidex.2853]

My friends and I know why it dropped BIGGLY.They moved PVE into PVP so we waited and it didn't change so we quit playing PVP.Pretty sad you can't have a team of 3 or more to try to make it so you can WIN matches you know what PVP is suppose to be about team fights.

[Dahkeus.8243]

@dagger dave.5201 said:No cause when you start pvp for the first time you get matched with other new players in unranked.

Only if there's enough other new players queueing at the same time.

As time goes on, there's less new PvP players, so that sort of matchmaking becomes harder. As that matchmaking becomes harder, the games for new players get worse. As the games for new players get worse, the less likely new players are to stick with PvP and keep playing.

It's something that easily turns into a self-perpetuating cycle.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

@"Vancho.8750" said:I was scrolling trough the GW 2 reddit and saw these threads https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/ctuyjp/this_game_has_real_gameplay_issues_for_pvp/https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/ctt8uf/how_to_evaluate_my_spvp_skill_level/ .When you think about it many people probably tried pvp and got rolled by someone who played it for far longer time and never tried again. I think they tried to simplify with the POF elites but in the end it ended up doing the opposite since the older players know how to abuse the specks to their limits and everything is supper charged and hard to follow. I've noticed that a lot of people are oblivious what their build is good for and what other people builds do and just run around to the battles and spam abilities .The game is missing the in between modes for learning and it is hard to learn everything on the go (don't pull the it has videos kitten, people are not here to watch manuals how to drive a train). The hook is missing and no amount of armor and weapon skins will pull people into pvp.Some people say that conquest is the best and most skillful mode, might be but doesn't mean it is fun or easy to play and it can't be denied it has gotten way to stale after so many years.Last year when 2v2 came i was hoping there would be a queue for it for something lower scale help people easy in to the fast paced pvp .Also the FFA arena is cool and all but it is too small for duels, which is one of these no reward fun things people enjoy doing in MMOs.Do you have any ideas how to grow the mode?

It is just missing focus... pvp isnt ez ... we r not in pve causal ... just reward it and people will spend more effort into it more money and let it growth by them Self... ez concept ... anet isnt able to addapt it ... gw2 has the biggest mmo potentiel to be pvp Lead... anet just cant do it and will loose all there pve buddys to the next game with better graphics

[VoidNard.7206]

@shadowpass.4236 said:Making builds stronger/easier to play for new players > good players abuse meta builds > bad players have an even harder time > repeat

That's what happens when you power creep balance around casuals ¯\(ツ)/¯

one shotting someone doesnt make you a good player

[voltaicbore.8012]

@"Ragnar.4257" said:

Really?

The reason for Conquest, is that it provides a reason to engage and get close in a fight. If there were no capture points, and it was just a team-deathmatch, you really think it would produce healthier play? Or would it produce everyone playing solo perma-stealth gank builds, or live-forever-runaway builds? See WvW roaming for evidence. That's not healthy. It doesn't have to be Conquest, but you need some kind of reason to force people to commit to a fight and not just perma runaway/hide.

This is a great point, one I always firmly believed in, and one that isn't expressed often enough. Take away primary objectives, and all you're left with is fight avoidance or one-shot stealthgank builds. The fact that you need to contest points to win spvp matches forces a certain level of balance between offense and defense. If you do opt for a speedy or glass cannon build, you have to adjust your playstyle to account for the fact that you probably can't survive on point. If you opt for the "live forever" (or at least, "live a bit longer") builds, you have to understand that you'll likely never take a point from the enemy until your teammates clear it for you. Conquest fundamentally demands these tradeoffs, and deathmatch modes will quickly be dominated by the types of builds we hate the most in the current metagame.

As for the learning curve, it doesn't seem that bad to me relative to my experiences in other games (where gear matters, and balance is seriously out of line). I think the typical pve GW2 player here just thinks it's awfully steep because the rest of the pve world is so unchallenging.

[C Cspace Cowboy.5903]

Steep learning curve? yes.

But that's moot compared to the horrible balance.

[H a z Z y.1762]

Hmm, it is hard to learn how other classes work just by playing against them - moreso than other pvp games IMO.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

The steep learning curve i feel is due tothe fact that video games are becoming more complex in the face of technology and evolution from its predecessor. This kind of progress is always a good thing. If it ever beomes to complex for any kind of player newbe or veteran then this game or any other game just isn't for them.If you want basic mmo point and click simple as thinking 1+1 is 2 then i suggest gw1. That is a great classic combat syatem that good for all ages and mentalitites.

[DoomNexus.5324]

PvP in GW2 has a pretty rough time tbh. Guild Wars 2 as a game is just 100% casual but you simply can't make a competitive game mode casual and expect it to be good.Combining hardcore players and casuals in one game mode will never work in a game. Casuals will be just completely overwhelmed and just straight out quit due to it being too difficult and getting rekt by veterans, while hardcore players will just get bored and complain about the system being flawed while still holding on to the game because they really like it in theory so they want the game mode to succeed but then again continue to constantly steam roll casuals until they have enough and they eventually quit too. So it's a negative experience for everyone.

So.. The question imo isn't really "is the learning curve too steep". Because a casual probably would answer with "hell yes!" while a hardcore pvp'er will probably say "hell no!".For example.. I like that I have to play every other class with various different builds at least once so I can get a rough idea how all the other classes work and then try to figure out (maybe by getting defeated myself on that class by my main class) how I can counter play. I love theory crafting and tinkering around with my own builds - which is extremely effective. Every time I've been higher than plat 1 was with a custom build because nobody knows how to counter play because everybody is just fixated on metabattle builds and everything different completely overwhelmes a lot of people.I love the strategic element of the capture mode and the complex decision making based on map awareness and experience and game knowledge.GW2 is a very easy looking game when you just glance over it but if you go deeper it gets really complex actually.So... I think the learning curve is steep but for me at least it is/was not "too" steep, in fact it could even be steeper.And I really appreciate the capture mode btw. I kitten hate Team Deathmatch and I'd probably hate GW2 PvP if we only had TDM as sPVP mode. Just as a side node.

What really kills GW2 PvP for me is solo/duo Q because I have to rely on team mates who absolutely have no clue how to make decisions based on your team comp and map, a really bad balance, extremely slow (balance) updates and overall just basically no support for the game mode from the devs.

[Abraxxus.8971]

@DoomNexus.5324 said:

What really kills GW2 PvP for me is solo/duo Q because I have to rely on team mates who absolutely have no clue how to make decisions based on your team comp and map, a really bad balance, extremely slow (balance) updates and overall just basically no support for the game mode from the devs.

This. So much this.

[Vancho.8750]

@"DoomNexus.5324" said:PvP in GW2 has a pretty rough time tbh. Guild Wars 2 as a game is just 100% casual but you simply can't make a competitive game mode casual and expect it to be good.Combining hardcore players and casuals in one game mode will never work in a game. Casuals will be just completely overwhelmed and just straight out quit due to it being too difficult and getting rekt by veterans, while hardcore players will just get bored and complain about the system being flawed while still holding on to the game because they really like it in theory so they want the game mode to succeed but then again continue to constantly steam roll casuals until they have enough and they eventually quit too. So it's a negative experience for everyone.

So.. The question imo isn't really "is the learning curve too steep". Because a casual probably would answer with "hell yes!" while a hardcore pvp'er will probably say "hell no!".For example.. I like that I have to play every other class with various different builds at least once so I can get a rough idea how all the other classes work and then try to figure out (maybe by getting defeated myself on that class by my main class) how I can counter play. I love theory crafting and tinkering around with my own builds - which is extremely effective. Every time I've been higher than plat 1 was with a custom build because nobody knows how to counter play because everybody is just fixated on metabattle builds and everything different completely overwhelmes a lot of people.I love the strategic element of the capture mode and the complex decision making based on map awareness and experience and game knowledge.GW2 is a very easy looking game when you just glance over it but if you go deeper it gets really complex actually.So... I think the learning curve is steep but for me at least it is/was not "too" steep, in fact it could even be steeper.And I really appreciate the capture mode btw. I kitten hate Team Deathmatch and I'd probably hate GW2 PvP if we only had TDM as sPVP mode. Just as a side node.

What really kills GW2 PvP for me is solo/duo Q because I have to rely on team mates who absolutely have no clue how to make decisions based on your team comp and map, a really bad balance, extremely slow (balance) updates and overall just basically no support for the game mode from the devs.I think GW2 suffers the same fate like Battlerite with the fact it is twitch combat with a lot of decision making. There should be some intermediate mode in between, i think WvW was supposed to be that with small scale fights 1v1, but the people just went for the most efficient farm with blob vs blob and anyone else is not invited the meme roaming is dead is kind of true. There should be more organic way to put people in PVP, duel spots in the lobby, WvW objective that is worth the risk of getting killed multiple times (some kind of special boss or something).I wonder if the POF speck were made in mind to be easier to play but that ended in reverse and made the game way too fast and overloaded. No one likes conditions, no one likes getting rag dolled, no one likes to get killed under 3 seconds but here we are, and people thought that Hot Elites were powercrept.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

seems like most ppl don't care about conquest and just want to kill ppl. pvp is dying cuz there is no team deathmatch mode.

[Rico.6873]

@sephiroth.4217 said:the only way I learnt about PvP was because I was fortunate enough to get into it with friends who helped me learn.

thats a privilege newer players will miss out on.

Easy dalies = free 2 gold is what made me pvp every day, you need to win in order to get the third daily and thats why I pvp'd every dayThen I found out you could get legendary gear/wings and played pvp a bit more serious to get all the achievements necessary for the wingsNow I'm just working on my legendary pvp armor, then ill continue to pvp for the easy daily 2 gold :)

[Abelisk.5148]

Anyone else think decapping should double in time it takes to decap, thief literally has one role others don't have: decap

[Crab Fear.1624]

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:Anyone else think decapping should double in time it takes to decap, thief literally has one role others don't have: decap

Probably not.

It would make it harder for superior side noders to dethrone.

Even if decap took double time, as a thief, it gives me time to come to my ally that you are 1 v 1ing and kill you with them.

I don't decap often points that are contested.

[Swagg.9236]

GW2 PvP's learning curve is super contrived because it is almost entirely comprised of esoteric, nonsense knowledge pertaining to the most ubiquitous instant and passive effects for each respective class. When it comes to development of raw gameplay ability (movement and gamesense), most of that is utterly gutted by things like teleports, a super passive meta playstyle which pervades every class, and the existence of a minimap which constantly projects so much information that it makes Halo's minimap look like Scrooge on the day before Christmas when it comes to enemy positioning. The problem with GW2's "learning curve" isn't so much that it's too steep; it's more like it's a sheer cliff constructed from absolute garbage which makes no sense to anyone who has ever played a decent video game before. However, once a player grabs one of the nearby ladders lying around (i.e. any sort of meta guide on match-ups and overpowered builds), anyone can quickly scale the wall only to find a pancake-flat plateau waiting for them filled with people lauding their abilities to press buttons just as well as the next guy while glancing at a minimap.

This is to say, that learning to play GW2 PvP optimally is just a matter of learning each class' arsenal of invisible and instant attacks (which is not an interesting or dynamic way of learning how to play a non-turn-based game). Moreover, once a player "gits gud" at GW2 PvP, they will never pilot their builds any different than anyone else; the game is just too stripped down and shallow for player expression. That's mostly why the game is super dead.

[megilandil.7506]

i remember my firts aproach to pvp at the begining of the game, beibg jumped by invisible enemies that paralized you an 100-0 you in a pair of seconds or viewing someone spawning "imfinite" copies and pof you are dead... definitive not newbie friendly... after a few tries i stayed away from pvp almost a pair of years until enteredwith some guildies to mess around in hotjoint

[Gamadorn.2670]

I absolutely think it has too steep of a learning curve. Definitely for new players. This is the main reason everyone from Silver 3 to Plat 1 thinks they should be plat 3+ but its their teammates keeping them down, because there are soooo many different things you have to know and do well. You have to know your class well from a build prospective and be able to play it mechanically well ( without having to think about anything it just has to be instinct and second nature ), then you have to understand the role of your build, the other teams build/comps so you know what matches are advantageous to you and where and when you should engage and that's only IF every other person on your team ( or there's ) understands the same concepts and plays the same way ( which almost never happens ) so when people start doing other things then the roles that the "meta" has laid out for them it becomes a cluster of tactics and strategy dependent on what everyone in the match is doing at any particular point in time.

This is the main thing that leads toxicity because everyone thinks they are the one's doing the right thing and carrying and getting frustrated at everyone else, and that entire combination of crap completely turns off new players entirely. IMO

[Falan.1839]

A learning curve will always be a thing in a seven year old game of an MMO, with builds, rotations etc to learn. However, I actually think GW2 PvP is more accessible, since it doesn't have a gear spiral that will put new players at a disadvantage even aside from skill level and there is just one gamemode to learn. When it comes to builds and gameplay the community offers a unique level of help, there is builds on Metabattle and GodsofPvP, there are written guides on both pages, there are several videos, we have a 'Welcome to PvP' discord where questions can be asked and several class coaches are there to answer, and most streamers are always willing to share gameplay tips aswell. Also the level of gameplay in the average ranked game is not high at all, even in plat 2+ you see an incredible amount of easy mistakes, so you really don't need to be a flawless player to move into higher higher divisions.

The problem rather is that the majority of the community has an extremely casual and noncompetitive mindset and is unwilling to learn in the face of any pushpack if there is no immediate gratification. Unfortunately Arenanet has catered to that mentality a lot in many aspects of the game (a good majority of the devs seem to share the mindset), so this is pretty much by design.

[StevieB.7495]

Bad player here: I play PvP on occasion with my gf and we both agree. It's not the getting "rolled" aspect that keeps us from playing, it is the constantly being called F----- and Re---- and the occasional N-----. We don't care about losing, its a fast-paced hack N slash game revolving around instant damage, that's gonna happen. It's the hateful environment that keeps us from queuing again.

[Greyjoy.5167]

Pvp is boring in this game. I mean 1v1 fights are mega-cool, but arenas are bad, boring, poor and sad.Nobody cares about what is not ranked, so don't pull out these 2v2 ones. It is not ranked - it does not exist.Give us ranked 2v2 / 3v3 or even 1v1 and PvP n this game will grow as new.

[Vancho.8750]

@"StevieB.7495" said:Bad player here: I play PvP on occasion with my gf and we both agree. It's not the getting "rolled" aspect that keeps us from playing, it is the constantly being called F----- and Re---- and the occasional N-----. We don't care about losing, its a fast-paced hack N slash game revolving around instant damage, that's gonna happen. It's the hateful environment that keeps us from queuing again.

I don't know at what time you play or at or at what skill level, but for a competitive game the toxicity is pretty mild compared to the other games. Someone blowing a gasket is common after they played several games and people dont try their best to win, that is when someone will lose their cool. Usually for me someone starts typing 1 out 5 and maybe 10 games, and it is usually thief or FOTM for some reason, complaining about how much someone else is sucking usually to deflect from their own ineptitude. No one starts with swear words they only start to fly if you antagonize them instead of ignoring them.If you are playing ranked and do subpar you are going to get yelled at it is all about the win in there, you might not mind losing but the other guy that was grinding the points and lost -30 probably does, but if it is unranked you can just say "testing some builds" or it "it is just unranked chill".Also if you get harassed in whisper do not respond just report and block.So the game is toxic excuse doesn't fly for me, it is not sunshine and rainbows but getting 1 guy spamming crap in one out of 5 games is not toxic, that is 19 people that aren't saying anything. I really hate when people start generalizing from small number of bad experiences.