What is a "non-cheese build"

[Chaba.5410]

@Gryxis.6950 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:The game gives him the ability to regain full adrenaline repeatedly so he can full counter repeatedly. How is that ignoring opponent mechanics?

Also, what's so wrong about kiting outside of the duel area? Does the game disconnect him if he does? Obviously he's going to kite for his cooldowns since that's the way the game works. Or is standing around inside some made-up area to get hit by the opponent what you mean by not ignoring opponent mechanics?

It's ignoring the game mechanics because you're supposed to be able to not activate the full counter when the war uses it by not attacking the war. However it is not possible for a mesmer as clones automatically make it proc.

OK so mesmer clones can help increase a warrior's adrenaline since they keep attacking (even though the mesmer can shatter the clones), but so can certain warrior skills. So no, it isn't ignoring game mechanics. Your reasoning appears to be somewhat of a convoluted reach. That warrior player was good and wasn't cheese; knew how to counter a mesmer. Mesmer is probably a terrible match to a spellbreaker cuz of the clone/full counter issue and it's on the mesmer to not ignore those game mechanics.

[XECOR.2814]

Necro builds lol. Cannot resustain and cannot disengage. Each fight is do or die.

[acidic.4356]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:I dont respect builds, I respect players.

I've seen what at a glance appear to be good players on good builds that afterwards whisper toxic garbage about how you suck, your guild sucks and every insult between heaven and earth (yes, I recently had a whisper with someone saying he is god just because we couldnt catch a 100% evade built kite soulbeast). They know what they play. Zero respect for everyone until they prove themselves worthy of it.

+1

usually i give them 1 chance after their toxic wisp il engage them in a convo, most remain toxic and get blocked, but occasionally they see the error of their ways and a few ended up on my friends list... ive also tried to help ppl with builds and advice wherever i could to whoever wanted it - just anything i felt i was qualified to help with, i think in general theres more positive ppl in wvw than the type to insult etc.

ps- might this be the kind of build u refer to re-soulbeast

i do hope wvw can recover playerbase and become what i and many others feel it should have done already, regardless of its current state.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Gryxis.6950 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:The game gives him the ability to regain full adrenaline repeatedly so he can full counter repeatedly. How is that ignoring opponent mechanics?

Also, what's so wrong about kiting outside of the duel area? Does the game disconnect him if he does? Obviously he's going to kite for his cooldowns since that's the way the game works. Or is standing around inside some made-up area to get hit by the opponent what you mean by not ignoring opponent mechanics?

It's ignoring the game mechanics because you're supposed to be able to not activate the full counter when the war uses it by not attacking the war. However it is not possible for a mesmer as clones automatically make it proc.

OK so mesmer clones can help increase a warrior's adrenaline since they keep attacking (even though the mesmer can shatter the clones), but so can certain warrior skills. So no, it isn't ignoring game mechanics. Your reasoning appears to be somewhat of a convoluted reach. That warrior player was good and wasn't cheese; knew how to counter a mesmer. Mesmer is probably a terrible match to a spellbreaker cuz of the clone/full counter issue and it's on the mesmer to not ignore those game mechanics.

I think you misunderstood my post XDI’m saying that the Mesmer is using a cheese build. Not the warrior.

[Chaba.5410]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Gryxis.6950 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:The game gives him the ability to regain full adrenaline repeatedly so he can full counter repeatedly. How is that ignoring opponent mechanics?

Also, what's so wrong about kiting outside of the duel area? Does the game disconnect him if he does? Obviously he's going to kite for his cooldowns since that's the way the game works. Or is standing around inside some made-up area to get hit by the opponent what you mean by not ignoring opponent mechanics?

It's ignoring the game mechanics because you're supposed to be able to not activate the full counter when the war uses it by not attacking the war. However it is not possible for a mesmer as clones automatically make it proc.

OK so mesmer clones can help increase a warrior's adrenaline since they keep attacking (even though the mesmer can shatter the clones), but so can certain warrior skills. So no, it isn't ignoring game mechanics. Your reasoning appears to be somewhat of a convoluted reach. That warrior player was good and wasn't cheese; knew how to counter a mesmer. Mesmer is probably a terrible match to a spellbreaker cuz of the clone/full counter issue and it's on the mesmer to not ignore those game mechanics.

I think you misunderstood my post XDI’m saying that the Mesmer is using a cheese build. Not the warrior.

So what is your point if you are calling out the mesmer as cheese? The mesmer is ignoring game mechanics by choice or ignorance. That still doesn't make a cheese build. Just makes a mesmer player who hasn't realized yet what is going on and how to counter.

[Sovereign.1093]

dont hate when we do rock out ok? its fun. >.< you can do it too if u kill us

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

Cheese is something that allows for little risk. It might not be very effective in a duel (vs a good player), but in open WvW they do well enough for hunting lower skilled players and have little risk of being caught.

They are opportunistic builds that are most often used as a +1, or engaging in fights and resetting until you can find someone who doesn't understand the build/class and you can wipe the floor with them on it.

[Dante.1508]

A non cheese build is something meta players would never play.

[ZDragon.3046]

Any build that does not offer a wide range of counterplay and its tools and kit do not come with equal risk for reward.

If a build offers great reward with little risk it will be seen as cheeseIf a build offers minimal or near 0 counter play it will be seen as cheeseIf a build one shots someone (especially form stealth) a person feels like they had no attempt to play and so it will be seen as cheese.If a build is just doing too much in too short a time frame it will be seen as cheese.

So ideally almost or most anything that is barely meta or not meta in anyway is not cheese so long as it does not violate the above first.

Sadly things you would consider non chese are things most players consider to be "dead" builds even if the builds do offer reasonable viability. But there is always something either its more risk than they are use to or they cant 1 shot with that build or it has a fair number of counters so its considered "Dead" when compared to the meta options.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Doug.4930 said:Every class has a cheese build. Every class. So its impossible to pick an option in the poll.

and some classes ONLY have cheese builds.

[briggah.7910]

i run only non-cheese builds on every class i play. everyone that beats me runs a cheese build no matter what class they play

/s

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

A non-cheese build is also known as a "why the hell would you play that if you are actually trying to be competitive" build. They are most commonly used by die hard wvw fans who are boycotting the absurd levels of power creep of the "meta cheese". Upon meeting a non-cheese build in the wild, its important to treat them with extreme caution as they have likely spent endless hours theorycrafting and testing said build in attempt to be somewhat viable.

[Justine.6351]

Cheese isn't merely a build, it's a way of playing too.

If you are playing a facetank bunker build but refuse to play in melee and start to run when you take a little damage, that is pretty cheese.If you have a chance to win a 1v1 with appropriate build and experience but instead hang back until your friend is ~15 seconds away and then engage pretending like its a 1v1 knowing it will be a safe 2v1, that is a pretty cheese way of playing.If you are playing like 4v2 and runaway if you are targeted but once the enemy untargets you, you get back in their face and then when they die, you dance on them, that is pretty cheese.Or there is the guy who is just slightly worse than you but won't admit it and thinks it's a legit 1v1 when he has half a dozen upgraded keep guards with ironguard at his back and a portal just behind them. Then he hits you with emotes trying to taunt you, that's pretty sadcheese.Pretty much anyone who initiates 1v1, running away to reset just to come right back. That isn't cheese, it's pathetic.

[Cuks.8241]

So based on the replies the only non-cheese build is a bad power build that doesn't counter anything and only does moderate dmg so it can't one shot anything. And it shouldn't be to sturdy also so it can't be considered a bunker build. Also no dmg immunity, blocks...You can use condi build but should not be able to spam them as this is cheese. You can only apply condis at a moderate rate. Same bunker no nos apply.

On top of that you have to only engage in fights with totally equal numbers and only against people with proper builds for that fight format. You should also not use environment in any way that the opponent could consider as cheese. Before engagement you should make sure that the opponent is ready for the fight and aware of your position and intentions as using the first striker advantage is an obvious cheese.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Jayden Reese.9542 said:They either win or if they get resistance they run.That literally describes 100% of the playerbase.

So you're right, it does sound simple.

[Undo.5091]

Everything is cheese. You just need to learn to cut through it all.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Well it seems much easier to describe what is cheese but what isn't cheese. But I guess we'll go for something concrete. What do you think of the following builds? Please explain why or why not you think it's cheesy. Lol, maybe I should have just put the poll as that.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwAEd3lJw8YdMLWJOKXrNbA-zVRYBRNIG+TQjDA-w

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgiVlNwuYisNGJO0XntUA-zVRYBRHIG+SwzB-w

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAoqlJwCZPML2Jm0X6tKA-zVRYkhnNagTQyDA-w

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWwAw2FlNwcYIsFWJW+X5taA-zVRYBRHIG+TQxDA-w

And yes I made it all up though I may or may not run these.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

other then burn guard vs groups, guard has the least amount of cheese. the one shot build is the most obvious thing to see and avoid, unless they come out of los. soo, two things ain't so bad, especially when compared to an entire classes design.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Cuks.8241 said:So based on the replies the only non-cheese build is a bad power build that doesn't counter anything and only does moderate dmg so it can't one shot anything. And it shouldn't be to sturdy also so it can't be considered a bunker build. Also no dmg immunity, blocks...You can use condi build but should not be able to spam them as this is cheese. You can only apply condis at a moderate rate. Same bunker no nos apply.

On top of that you have to only engage in fights with totally equal numbers and only against people with proper builds for that fight format. You should also not use environment in any way that the opponent could consider as cheese. Before engagement you should make sure that the opponent is ready for the fight and aware of your position and intentions as using the first striker advantage is an obvious cheese.

this is actually pretty damn funny.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

There is non as even some of the classes have absurd cheese downstates lol.Whole games gonna have to be rebuild from ground up to rid it of the amount of cheese that's accumulated within it lol

[DemonSeed.3528]

Cheese is like brute forcing someone's ability to defend, react, sustain, etc with little risk, or at least overwhelm the opponent using that tactic in a [usually] annoying manner that leaves little room for them to reciprocate or at the very least, make their attacks feel like they are useless [whether by evades, boons, stealth etc]. That said, cheese will inevitably also be whatever kills someone and they got mad. I'd say the threshold of cheese is dependant on the person on the receiving end and their skill level mostly.

[Mikhael.2391]

A build that offers lots of reward for little to no counters or risk.

I have a cheese build on my core guardian but unlike other classes with tools to escape when they fail I either finish the job after initial burst or im dead, so cheese wise this is 70% out 100% as i cannot stealth or teleport away or any mobility.

[ILoveMonotony.1479]

@Cuks.8241 said:So based on the replies the only non-cheese build is a bad power build that doesn't counter anything and only does moderate dmg so it can't one shot anything. And it shouldn't be to sturdy also so it can't be considered a bunker build. Also no dmg immunity, blocks...You can use condi build but should not be able to spam them as this is cheese. You can only apply condis at a moderate rate. Same bunker no nos apply.

On top of that you have to only engage in fights with totally equal numbers and only against people with proper builds for that fight format. You should also not use environment in any way that the opponent could consider as cheese. Before engagement you should make sure that the opponent is ready for the fight and aware of your position and intentions as using the first striker advantage is an obvious cheese.

Glorious. =)

[bluberblasen.9684]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGgAsijFYdmnthjvy2yD-zVRYBBLGNsyIzEo0CQlDQAdbgGKcGB-wcan also be played with blinding ashes and or fresh air.

This a NON cheese Build.Master it and i /bow you :)

[Shroud.2307]

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:Cheese is something that allows for little risk. It might not be very effective in a duel (vs a good player), but in open WvW they do well enough for hunting lower skilled players and have little risk of being caught.

They are opportunistic builds that are most often used as a +1, or engaging in fights and resetting until you can find someone who doesn't understand the build/class and you can wipe the floor with them on it.

This is the best description of what a cheese a cheese build is.

I have an Engineer build that I specifically designed to be "cheesy" and it does it very well. It struggles in 1v1's ( particularly because it's core Engineer ) but it's extremely good at isolating people in groups with Magnet and preventing runners from escaping or shutting down supports with Moa. It also has pretty high health ( 26k ) and moderate defense in the way of Elixir S, Toss Elixir S and Jump Shot for mobility, as well we perma-Swiftness and Speed runes making it relatively hard to catch. It's an extremely annoying +1'er and focus fighter in groups and I very much enjoy it, lol.