1 Shot out of stealth is a toxic/unhealthy mechanic

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Thing is there are a lot more counter plays to steal then revealed but maybe a lot of players don't realize cuz they don't play thief. I'll give examples.Dh dps trap build- if u steal onto them to backstab their traps almost insta down u meaning a thief has to wait out the traps in which the dh can just redrop or wait for a ally to trip them then go in for the stealth back stab. The aegis also counters thief if not running boonsteal. Guards also have many ways to counter like constant erratic movements (all classes can do this) as the cd on back stab can make this annoying. They also have blocks they can time etc.

Necro's,scrappers and ele's have barriers that when used render thief's one shots into barely significant causing thief to be in melee range and probably force a disengagement. All these classes can condi or melee burst a thief in seconds if thief's caught.

Aoe's are so rampant in this game especially condi aoe's which are spammed almost all the time in team fights and even a lot in small group or 1v1's. These can strip a thief's hp fast even with SA traitline taken due to the powercreep.

Some classes have aoe reveal and or skills like magebane etc keeping enemies from stealthing.

Wvw has reveal traps, sniff and the reveal areas if stealth'd more than 2 secs.

There are more counter play options but don't want to bother typing more, if u think stealth has no counter play options u gotta open ur eyes.

1) THIS A PVP FORUMS2)What aegis ?I am sorry , but basilisc and Sweep arent unbrocable ?Backstab should behave like other games , you you get reveleaved when you miss the attack ... not try again after 2-3 sec...This is casual friendly

Necro's,scrappers and ele's get barriers when they waste spells . If you see those ppl start precasting ...congrats they wont do to you damage next turn , or wait this is disminish

If they are bunkers (with toughness amulets) ...they are meant to stall a 1v1You are a scissor ... why are you crying about killing bunkers ?

Aoe's and condition are so rampant ....if there was a thief trait ,that removed them ....

https://wiki-en.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace

+

https://wiki-en.guildwars2.com/wiki/Escapist%27s_Fortitude

.... among other utilities spells + Rune sets

Wvw has reveal traps ....... AHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAH you place a 3 sec cast time trap , in a huge map ?

Wvw sniff .... AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAH you see NON-stealth enemies on the minimap

reveal areas .... its your problem if you got near a tier 2 keep-tower ... and even so its for 30 sec ... nodays keeps and castle are easily flipped because its was nerfed ...so not many have time to become tier 2

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Why are people only now becoming vocal about this nonsense which has been in the game forever, and nonsense that I might add, people have been dealing with since god knows how long.

Because its more common than it was back thenPeople stopped using it when other options became availableWhen those other options get forced into a more-balanced state (are no longer op) people opt back to the 1 shot tactics cause anet allows it instead of fixing it.

People hit with this want to play their fun builds and professions which are likely not one shot builds from stealth but cant do so because they get one shot with little to no tell or time to react.

Aka you dont get to play.Rightfully so it will be complained about so long as people continue to use them cause its not fun not getting to play.

Let's be real when u say when the other builds get nerfed to a balanced state u actually mean there's a equally high chance the got nerfed to a under performing state and are not really viable any more so players go to the next viable option. That seems more realistic of a scenario.

When Rev was released , in HoT , the majority of Thiefs went there .The underlining problems of thieves where not addressed such as S/D and StealthWhen rev was ''balanced'' every1 when back to thievesWhen the casuals coppied the Bunker specs from the pros Real money 2014 tourmanets , every1 whined about Bunkerwars .When the company gave other classes Burst abilities and Condition where buffed to counter Toughness in 2015 ...every1 whined about powercreep

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Why are people only now becoming vocal about this nonsense which has been in the game forever, and nonsense that I might add, people have been dealing with since god knows how long.

Because its more common than it was back thenPeople stopped using it when other options became availableWhen those other options get forced into a more-balanced state (are no longer op) people opt back to the 1 shot tactics cause anet allows it instead of fixing it.

People hit with this want to play their fun builds and professions which are likely not one shot builds from stealth but cant do so because they get one shot with little to no tell or time to react.

Aka you dont get to play.Rightfully so it will be complained about so long as people continue to use them cause its not fun not getting to play.

Let's be real when u say when the other builds get nerfed to a balanced state u actually mean there's a equally high chance the got nerfed to a under performing state and are not really viable any more so players go to the next viable option. That seems more realistic of a scenario.

Well no.

I mean reality most builds are nerfed and can still perform but people like to think that builds that have minimal counterplay or too much of everything at once as balanced builds. While builds that when nerfed and have obviously weak aspects in their own kits (not against other professions) in respect to their strengths as dead and unviable.

Yes some builds might be unviable if you compare them to a build thats over performing which is what most people do. But if you compare them to builds that are not over performing they are technically balanced.

Most nerfs dont make a build unviable they make them have an obvious weakness as all builds should have.

Sry but what ur literally describing is a optimal nerf setting which doesn't exist in this game. Ur talking as if all anets nerfs were optimal leaving the specs I'm a more balanced state which is ........The reason the games in the state no speaks volumes for their nerf/buff potential. Things may change with this new team but in the past saying builds were nerfed into balanced state so the went to another blatent op build worth flooding the forums over as if there's always one to go to that no one was playing before lol. In this iteration of the game every class has a spec with a cheese build with less counter play and it takes the same to fight it so we are where we are today. Blaming one spec or one of its mechanics for using cheese these days is disingenuous at best.

In this thread we discuss for 1 type of cheese ..stealthIf you want to whine about evades Weavers or Mersmer that can burst you from stealth you should creat a new topicThe one thing you are doing is protecting the cheese .... and then quit ...again when a new game will launch ?I wonder where the Thieves protecting their class , from the MegaHateTHeif 2013 thread went .....I dont beleive they whineed about powercreep and left ...that would be silly :POr if there wasnt enought casuals to pay the costs of Real Money Tournaments ...forcing the company to pay from his pockets or use the money from the PvE :PThose 2 cases would make some ppl extremly angry ....

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@saerni.2584 said:People have been complaining about stealth attacks since the beginning of the game.

This isn’t “new.” This has been going on since the game came out. Sure the balance may have shifted on damage and sustain but the ability to use hard hitting skills (for that meta) from stealth has always been there.

I really wish people used the forum search engine and saw how long the same arguments have been made ad nauseum.

Stealth will not be seriously nerfed/changed/removed from the game because it is a core game mechanic and Anet can’t change core game mechanics with significant design impact on the rest of the game without significant effort.

Reducing the stealth duration on specific skills is easy. Making some of kind cap on the overall duration is much more likely to require redesigning entire professions and rebalancing the entire game.

It's the archetypes design. Go to bdo,eso or archeage's forums, the rogue archetypes in those games all produce these very same types of threads and about the exact same aspects lol. It's a staple in the mmo genre and it's not gonna change unless anet decides to either not have a rogue like class or do a rogue type class that doesn't fit the current archetype which at that point is it still rogue like?

When are hit and are conditioned they are unstealthWhen you miss your backstab ...you get unstealth ...not try againWhen you are stealthed , you are slowed (you can keep your stealth survibility -but i am running away faster )Evades does make you immune to condition damageYou get stealth ...and slowy move to your target ...And not istantly travel with a free teleport ''Steal''This is why we must use the archetype of other games and not diviate from the normal

If thief is a rogue he doesnt need 1-shot mechanics ..hence this thread ...Give it to Rev insteadIf he is assasin rename its evades mechanics to something else , that counters only meele attacks and not range or conditions and redeuce any survibility traitsOr he must keep both ...then he must have 1 set of weapons like HoT rev.Then assasin he can get buffed to the roofAnd the rest of the casuals must unlocked a trait that ''saves'' the when their hp get 50% or when stunned , for counterplayIf he chooses to equip a second weapon before the match , he gets weaker with reduced damage

Listen man in every post u come across like a blatently biased thief hater so I never take any of ur post seriously nor do I actually read most of the walls u type because of what I said above :)With that said u can go on posting ur thief hate garbage, u can delude ur biased mine in a way to discount every real viable stealth counter given and u can keep being deluded in the hope that the class will ever see the changes that will make it not annoying for u to fight cuz it won't. Thief is designed as intended as it is in every mmo getting constant cries from people just like u day in day out in every other mmo forum threads :)Honestly learn to deal with thief's design, keep crying to deaf ears or change games. I say games cuz ud cry over any rogue iteration in any mmo I'd guess.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Thing is there are a lot more counter plays to steal then revealed but maybe a lot of players don't realize cuz they don't play thief. I'll give examples.Dh dps trap build- if u steal onto them to backstab their traps almost insta down u meaning a thief has to wait out the traps in which the dh can just redrop or wait for a ally to trip them then go in for the stealth back stab. The aegis also counters thief if not running boonsteal. Guards also have many ways to counter like constant erratic movements (all classes can do this) as the cd on back stab can make this annoying. They also have blocks they can time etc.

Necro's,scrappers and ele's have barriers that when used render thief's one shots into barely significant causing thief to be in melee range and probably force a disengagement. All these classes can condi or melee burst a thief in seconds if thief's caught.

Aoe's are so rampant in this game especially condi aoe's which are spammed almost all the time in team fights and even a lot in small group or 1v1's. These can strip a thief's hp fast even with SA traitline taken due to the powercreep.

Some classes have aoe reveal and or skills like magebane etc keeping enemies from stealthing.

Wvw has reveal traps, sniff and the reveal areas if stealth'd more than 2 secs.

There are more counter play options but don't want to bother typing more, if u think stealth has no counter play options u gotta open ur eyes.

1) THIS A PVP FORUMS2)What aegis ?I am sorry , but basilisc and Sweep arent unbrocable ?Backstab should behave like other games , you you get reveleaved when you miss the attack ... not try again after 2-3 sec...This is casual friendly

Necro's,scrappers and ele's get barriers when they waste spells . If you see those ppl start precasting ...congrats they wont do to you damage next turn , or wait this is disminish

If they are bunkers (with toughness amulets) ...they are meant to stall a 1v1You are a scissor ... why are you crying about killing bunkers ?

Aoe's and condition are so rampant ....if there was a thief trait ,that removed them ....

https://wiki-en.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace

+

https://wiki-en.guildwars2.com/wiki/Escapist%27s_Fortitude

.... among other utilities spells + Rune sets

Wvw has reveal traps ....... AHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAH you place a 3 sec cast time trap , in a huge map ?

Wvw sniff .... AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAH you see NON-stealth enemies on the minimap

reveal areas .... its your problem if you got near a tier 2 keep-tower ... and even so its for 30 sec ... nodays keeps and castle are easily flipped because its was nerfed ...so not many have time to become tier 2

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Why are people only now becoming vocal about this nonsense which has been in the game forever, and nonsense that I might add, people have been dealing with since god knows how long.

Because its more common than it was back thenPeople stopped using it when other options became availableWhen those other options get forced into a more-balanced state (are no longer op) people opt back to the 1 shot tactics cause anet allows it instead of fixing it.

People hit with this want to play their fun builds and professions which are likely not one shot builds from stealth but cant do so because they get one shot with little to no tell or time to react.

Aka you dont get to play.Rightfully so it will be complained about so long as people continue to use them cause its not fun not getting to play.

Let's be real when u say when the other builds get nerfed to a balanced state u actually mean there's a equally high chance the got nerfed to a under performing state and are not really viable any more so players go to the next viable option. That seems more realistic of a scenario.

When Rev was released , in HoT , the majority of Thiefs went there .The underlining problems of thieves where not addressed such as S/D and StealthWhen rev was ''balanced'' every1 when back to thievesWhen the casuals coppied the Bunker specs from the pros Real money 2014 tourmanets , every1 whined about Bunkerwars .When the company gave other classes Burst abilities and Condition where buffed to counter Toughness in 2015 ...every1 whined about powercreep

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:Why are people only now becoming vocal about this nonsense which has been in the game forever, and nonsense that I might add, people have been dealing with since god knows how long.

Because its more common than it was back thenPeople stopped using it when other options became availableWhen those other options get forced into a more-balanced state (are no longer op) people opt back to the 1 shot tactics cause anet allows it instead of fixing it.

People hit with this want to play their fun builds and professions which are likely not one shot builds from stealth but cant do so because they get one shot with little to no tell or time to react.

Aka you dont get to play.Rightfully so it will be complained about so long as people continue to use them cause its not fun not getting to play.

Let's be real when u say when the other builds get nerfed to a balanced state u actually mean there's a equally high chance the got nerfed to a under performing state and are not really viable any more so players go to the next viable option. That seems more realistic of a scenario.

Well no.

I mean reality most builds are nerfed and can still perform but people like to think that builds that have minimal counterplay or too much of everything at once as balanced builds. While builds that when nerfed and have obviously weak aspects in their own kits (not against other professions) in respect to their strengths as dead and unviable.

Yes some builds might be unviable if you compare them to a build thats over performing which is what most people do. But if you compare them to builds that are not over performing they are technically balanced.

Most nerfs dont make a build unviable they make them have an obvious weakness as all builds should have.

Sry but what ur literally describing is a optimal nerf setting which doesn't exist in this game. Ur talking as if all anets nerfs were optimal leaving the specs I'm a more balanced state which is ........The reason the games in the state no speaks volumes for their nerf/buff potential. Things may change with this new team but in the past saying builds were nerfed into balanced state so the went to another blatent op build worth flooding the forums over as if there's always one to go to that no one was playing before lol. In this iteration of the game every class has a spec with a cheese build with less counter play and it takes the same to fight it so we are where we are today. Blaming one spec or one of its mechanics for using cheese these days is disingenuous at best.

In this thread we discuss for 1 type of cheese ..stealthIf you want to whine about evades Weavers or Mersmer that can burst you from stealth you should creat a new topicThe one thing you are doing is protecting the cheese .... and then quit ...again when a new game will launch ?I wonder where the Thieves protecting their class , from the MegaHateTHeif 2013 thread went .....I dont beleive they whineed about powercreep and left ...that would be silly :POr if there wasnt enought casuals to pay the costs of Real Money Tournaments ...forcing the company to pay from his pockets or use the money from the PvE :PThose 2 cases would make some ppl extremly angry ....

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@saerni.2584 said:People have been complaining about stealth attacks since the beginning of the game.

This isn’t “new.” This has been going on since the game came out. Sure the balance may have shifted on damage and sustain but the ability to use hard hitting skills (for that meta) from stealth has always been there.

I really wish people used the forum search engine and saw how long the same arguments have been made ad nauseum.

Stealth will not be seriously nerfed/changed/removed from the game because it is a core game mechanic and Anet can’t change core game mechanics with significant design impact on the rest of the game without significant effort.

Reducing the stealth duration on specific skills is easy. Making some of kind cap on the overall duration is much more likely to require redesigning entire professions and rebalancing the entire game.

It's the archetypes design. Go to bdo,eso or archeage's forums, the rogue archetypes in those games all produce these very same types of threads and about the exact same aspects lol. It's a staple in the mmo genre and it's not gonna change unless anet decides to either not have a rogue like class or do a rogue type class that doesn't fit the current archetype which at that point is it still rogue like?

When are hit and are conditioned they are unstealthWhen you miss your backstab ...you get unstealth ...not try againWhen you are stealthed , you are slowed (you can keep your stealth survibility -but i am running away faster )Evades does make you immune to condition damageYou get stealth ...and slowy move to your target ...And not istantly travel with a free teleport ''Steal''This is why we must use the archetype of other games and not diviate from the normal

If thief is a rogue he doesnt need 1-shot mechanics ..hence this thread ...Give it to Rev insteadIf he is assasin rename its evades mechanics to something else , that counters only meele attacks and not range or conditions and redeuce any survibility traitsOr he must keep both ...then he must have 1 set of weapons like HoT rev.Then assasin he can get buffed to the roofAnd the rest of the casuals must unlocked a trait that ''saves'' the when their hp get 50% or when stunned , for counterplayIf he chooses to equip a second weapon before the match , he gets weaker with reduced damage

Listen man in every post u come across like a blatently biased thief hater so I never take any of ur post seriously nor do I actually read most of the walls u type because of what I said above :)With that said u can go on posting ur thief hate garbage, u can delude ur biased mine in a way to discount every real viable stealth counter given and u can keep being deluded in the hope that the class will ever see the changes that will make it not annoying for u to fight cuz it won't. Thief is designed as intended as it is in every mmo getting constant cries from people just like u day in day out in every other mmo forum threads :)Honestly learn to deal with thief's design, keep crying to deaf ears or change games. I say games cuz ud cry over any rogue iteration in any mmo I'd guess.

Common man , this is a simple Tom and Jerry game .You are trying to defend something and i try to corect some things you sayYou dont want Theif gameplay to change , neither i want other classes to be nerfed tooAnd ehere we are crying about powercreep

(i want things to remain too the same , and Core Enginner to get more Burn stacks ..i am too lazy to get 1 Burn in a talent tree which is for Crit Damage ... i mean common... FT2 is pitiful ...look at the Guardians that can easily stack more .. And more fluent/fastpaced animationOr we get the Kit refiment back => change weapon > Nails (slow) + superspeed+Aoe burn+ reflect missales, each having different internal 10 sec cd) . You dont need to calculate and guess when the cd is out )

[Axl.8924]

@"Alin.2468" said:If you only knew how easy it is to know where a thief is, as long as you have teamwork through voice chat... Back in the good old days if a thief left far, that person would tell in voice chat "thief left far, incoming mid". If thief would not appear mid, then "incoming close", because even Shadow Arts and "permastealth" build were not exactly permanent, so it was really easy to guess the next step with communication.

However, we like to play alone, and we want to know every step of every player, without even doing some efforts in teaming up and communicating the information that truly matters. It's our fault for voting to play alone,in 2016, and for accepting to play alone out of fear so we would not get demolished by teams who coordinate in free voice chat (Discord, Teamspeak, Mumble).

Coming up next: let's ask from Anet to modify the mini-map so it would show us not only the allied members, but also enemy members. This way we would know precisely where the thief is and can approximately anticipate when and how enemy will strike. Anet, please include this in the next announced 800+ modification patch.

I coulda sworn that was already a thing?

[Curennos.9307]

@Axl.8924 said:

@"Alin.2468" said:If you only knew how easy it is to know where a thief is, as long as you have teamwork through voice chat... Back in the good old days if a thief left far, that person would tell in voice chat "thief left far, incoming mid". If thief would not appear mid, then "incoming close", because even Shadow Arts and "permastealth" build were not exactly permanent, so it was really easy to guess the next step with communication.

However, we like to play alone, and we want to know every step of every player, without even doing some efforts in teaming up and communicating the information that truly matters. It's our fault for voting to play alone,in 2016, and for accepting to play alone out of fear so we would not get demolished by teams who coordinate in free voice chat (Discord, Teamspeak, Mumble).

Coming up next: let's ask from Anet to modify the mini-map so it would show us not only the allied members, but also enemy members. This way we would know precisely where the thief is and can approximately anticipate when and how enemy will strike. Anet, please include this in the next announced 800+ modification patch.

I coulda sworn that was already a thing?

IIRC it only shows you enemy locations if they're engaged with an ally (or were recently fighting w/) - and it doesn't show stealthed opponents.

[Crab Fear.1624]

some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

[Alin.2468]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@"Alin.2468" said:If you only knew how easy it is to know where a thief is, as long as you have teamwork through voice chat... Back in the good old days if a thief left far, that person would tell in voice chat "thief left far, incoming mid". If thief would not appear mid, then "incoming close", because even Shadow Arts and "permastealth" build were not exactly permanent, so it was really easy to guess the next step with communication.

However, we like to play alone, and we want to know every step of every player, without even doing some efforts in teaming up and communicating the information that truly matters. It's our fault for voting to play alone,in 2016, and for accepting to play alone out of fear so we would not get demolished by teams who coordinate in free voice chat (Discord, Teamspeak, Mumble).

Coming up next: let's ask from Anet to modify the mini-map so it would show us not only the allied members, but also enemy members. This way we would know precisely where the thief is and can approximately anticipate when and how enemy will strike. Anet, please include this in the next announced 800+ modification patch.

Lol get over yourself. This is a casual game, always has been, and that means the vast majority do not play iin premade groups with vc. That aside, arguing that vc makes up for the poor gameplay that invisible gives indicates a. Shallow understanding of what makes for a good. Game.

I do not really care how you play. I respect your tastes, yet I can not comment on your opinion about this game being casual. I only state how I played in a group with voice chat. Feel free to play alone, you may also enjoy alone for all I care. You see stealth as a poor gameplay, I see stealth as an awesome gameplay; so let's agree to disagree based on likes vs dislikes (teams vs groups).

[ZDragon.3046]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

chunking most players is meaningless, they heal to full within 3s while dodging and then vomit 10 boons or even get half hp barriers.

[Zexanima.7851]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

chunking most players is meaningless, they heal to full within 3s while dodging and then vomit 10 boons or even get half hp barriers.

Then you just rinse and repeat until they are out of resources. Besides, it's not usually the case now days. One shot builds will delete just about anything, even if you have your CDs up with full health. What it should do is just even the playing field, not insta-gib people. Let me be clear too that most people referring to "one-shot" builds really mean "Builds that have a very short to instant TTK with little to no chance to counter play"

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

chunking most players is meaningless, they heal to full within 3s while dodging and then vomit 10 boons or even get half hp barriers.

Then you just rinse and repeat until they are out of resources. Besides, it's not usually the case now days. One shot builds will delete just about anything, even if you have your CDs up with full health. What it

should

do is just even the playing field, not insta-gib people. Let me be clear too that most people referring to "one-shot" builds really mean "Builds that have a very short to instant TTK with little to no chance to counter play"

what people dont get, that 1shot builds just do that and are dry. when I go for the burst and you reheal to full as 1shot core. Im left with autoattacks and thats it.and here you stand with full hp, toughtness amulet, protection 10 stacks of stab and propably 15+ stacks of might.If you dont down someone with the first combo you have failed, becouse resustain of almost everyone is too high.Not every class can burst every 3s to keep up with it. Thats why people play warrior/rev, becouse they CAN burst people down every couple of sec.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

chunking most players is meaningless, they heal to full within 3s while dodging and then vomit 10 boons or even get half hp barriers.

lol not if they are balanced properly necro cant do this so im not use to being able to do that. Usually when someone one shots me from stealth or down to like 10% its rare to recover from it. Generally once necro is low it cant recover which is how most professions should be. But of course weaver, firebrand, warrior, etc kind of can ignore that and heal to full in some way which is true but i still dont agree with 1 shot level damage people will never say its "balanced" no matter how hard you try to defend it. In a mmo being one (especially with no tell) is never going to be accepted.

[Zexanima.7851]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

chunking most players is meaningless, they heal to full within 3s while dodging and then vomit 10 boons or even get half hp barriers.

Then you just rinse and repeat until they are out of resources. Besides, it's not usually the case now days. One shot builds will delete just about anything, even if you have your CDs up with full health. What it

should

do is just even the playing field, not insta-gib people. Let me be clear too that most people referring to "one-shot" builds really mean "Builds that have a very short to instant TTK with little to no chance to counter play"

what people dont get, that 1shot builds just do that and are dry. when I go for the burst and you reheal to full as 1shot core. Im left with autoattacks and thats it.and here you stand with full hp, toughtness amulet, protection 10 stacks of stab and propably 15+ stacks of might.If you dont down someone with the first combo you have failed, becouse resustain of almost everyone is too high.Not every class can burst every 3s to keep up with it. Thats why people play warrior/rev, becouse they CAN burst people down every couple of sec.

Most people don't run tanky stats. Even when I do on my spellbreaker I still have core mesmers hit me for 75% of my health out of stealth and good ones will have no problem finishing me off via kiting. Soulbeast can do similar, rev can do similar. Really it's an overall high damage issue. When you get lots of stealth and/or mobility paired with that high damage burst is when it becomes frustrating. This is especially bad for new players as I've had a couple people I was trying to introduce into pvp give up because of builds like these. All damage needs to be toned down (at it's suppose to be for the big patch, fingers crossed). That way hitting out of stealth will at most chunk your opponent for 50%. It doesn't guarantee a win but it gives you the initiative which should be the advantage of stealth, not being able to insta-down someone from it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

chunking most players is meaningless, they heal to full within 3s while dodging and then vomit 10 boons or even get half hp barriers.

lol not if they are balanced properly necro cant do this so im not use to being able to do that. Usually when someone one shots me from stealth or down to like 10% its rare to recover from it. Generally once necro is low it cant recover which is how most professions should be. But of course weaver, firebrand, warrior, etc kind of can ignore that and heal to full in some way which is true but i still dont agree with 1 shot level damage people will never say its "balanced" no matter how hard you try to defend it. In a mmo being one (especially with no tell) is never going to be accepted.

And I had different exp against necros.Both core and reaper I dont even try to 1shot untill I know I have the damage for it.Any of ranged reaper abilities chunk for 1/3-1/2 of mesmers HP and sec HP pool of reaper means death unless I still have blink.Against core necro its similar, 1shot or it goes to shround for extra 30k hp and applies weakness + pulsing reveal.You win that matchup by poking then from long range with spikes/gs4 and autos and then finishing them off, going straight up for 1shot is big gamble.But necro is shit out of luck against 1shot mes. you gotta put ALOT of effort to stay alive and if anyone else also jumps on you... you are boomed.

@Zexanima.7851 Against warrior its different then most becouse warriors recover HP over time and by getting might, but still IF I have all combo pieces and land it I can 1shot spb about 50/50 or leave you with 5-20% hp. Then If I kill you will depent how well you play it out, good warrior wont die after the first burst from what I have seen.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

chunking most players is meaningless, they heal to full within 3s while dodging and then vomit 10 boons or even get half hp barriers.

Then you just rinse and repeat until they are out of resources. Besides, it's not usually the case now days. One shot builds will delete just about anything, even if you have your CDs up with full health. What it

should

do is just even the playing field, not insta-gib people. Let me be clear too that most people referring to "one-shot" builds really mean "Builds that have a very short to instant TTK with little to no chance to counter play"

what people dont get, that 1shot builds just do that and are dry. when I go for the burst and you reheal to full as 1shot core. Im left with autoattacks and thats it.and here you stand with full hp, toughtness amulet, protection 10 stacks of stab and propably 15+ stacks of might.If you dont down someone with the first combo you have failed, becouse resustain of almost everyone is too high.Not every class can burst every 3s to keep up with it. Thats why people play warrior/rev, becouse they CAN burst people down every couple of sec.

Most people don't run tanky stats. Even when I do on my spellbreaker I still have core mesmers hit me for 75% of my health out of stealth and good ones will have no problem finishing me off via kiting. Soulbeast can do similar, rev can do similar. Really it's an overall high damage issue. When you get lots of stealth and/or mobility paired with that high damage burst is when it becomes frustrating. This is especially bad for new players as I've had a couple people I was trying to introduce into pvp give up because of builds like these. All damage needs to be toned down (at it's suppose to be for the big patch, fingers crossed). That way hitting out of stealth will at most chunk your opponent for 50%. It doesn't guarantee a win but it gives you the initiative which should be the advantage of stealth, not being able to insta-down someone from it.

Exactly this ive ran knights on my reaper before thats a bonus 1200 toughness and mesmers do much of the same knock me down to 20% or so and still have resources left to run or attempt another burst in a few short moments. In some cases they still kill me on the first attempt because the damage is that high. Deadeyes can do much of the same thing. I very much dislike builds that can totally invalidate the investment of defensive stats.

Zexanima is correct its it will be very frustrating and even more so for newer players. Even more so when people ask how to counter that build or better themselves against it and the other person goes "Just dodge 4head" or "get good." Overall its just not healthy for the game.

[Zexanima.7851]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

chunking most players is meaningless, they heal to full within 3s while dodging and then vomit 10 boons or even get half hp barriers.

lol not if they are balanced properly necro cant do this so im not use to being able to do that. Usually when someone one shots me from stealth or down to like 10% its rare to recover from it. Generally once necro is low it cant recover which is how most professions should be. But of course weaver, firebrand, warrior, etc kind of can ignore that and heal to full in some way which is true but i still dont agree with 1 shot level damage people will never say its "balanced" no matter how hard you try to defend it. In a mmo being one (especially with no tell) is never going to be accepted.

And I had different exp against necros.Both core and reaper I dont even try to 1shot untill I know I have the damage for it.Any of ranged reaper abilities chunk for 1/3-1/2 of mesmers HP and sec HP pool of reaper means death unless I still have blink.Against core necro its similar, 1shot or it goes to shround for extra 30k hp and applies weakness + pulsing reveal.You win that matchup by poking then from long range with spikes/gs4 and autos and then finishing them off, going straight up for 1shot is big gamble.But necro is kitten out of luck against 1shot mes. you gotta put ALOT of effort to stay alive and if anyone else also jumps on you... you are boomed.

@Zexanima.7851 Against warrior its different then most becouse warriors recover HP over time and by getting might, but still IF I have all combo pieces and land it I can 1shot spb about 50/50 or leave you with 5-20% hp. Then If I kill you will depent how well you play it out, good warrior wont die after the first burst from what I have seen.

I play at what I would consider an average level, maayyybbbeee a little above average just due to my hundreds of hours of experience. Recovering after getting chunked to 20% HP is difficult but not impossible. After you've recovered from it though you've blown a lot of defensive skills. The mesmer also doesn't have to wait for their entire burst to come off cooldown. Just for enough damage to hit for your remaining health. If they fight draws out though it's not in their favor and disengaging would be the right move. This is all compounded in a team fight situation where your attention and skills need to be used else where and getting hit for 80-90% of your health out of stealth is certain death.

The point I'm trying to get at is these "1-shot" builds need to get a damage nerf but have their sustain increased so the fights are actually fights and not just "pop, dead" or "pop, not dead, run".

[Lighter.5631]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

i vote stealth assassination stays.

no no no, it's the other way around, the state of the current balancing is because stealth assassination exists.all the sustain buffed to the roof, because stealth assassination existed since the release of game..specially after the release of daredevil.

there would be no point of buff all sustain if hit and teleport/stealth classes dont exist.

[ElderNewt.5840]

This is why I'm hoping the balance patch to come is going to bring down a lot of classes to the same (ISH) level. Far far too much power creep across all modes.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Alin.2468 said:This is called power-creep era. There are no more bunkers or point holders. It's kill or be killed; simple as that.

Unless it's dedicated support slapping dedicated support, it should always be kill or be killed, or forced to completely flee from a fight.

Being tanky and having defenses should be an advantage that lets you win a fight, but a winner should always be an eventuality. Personally the balance should be set at a point where no build is killing another build faster than 5 seconds, and no build survives longer than 60 seconds. And 20-30 is the sweet spot for a 1v1.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Skyronight.6370 said:Just cap stealth duration to 3-5 seconds and after that people get automatically revealed for 5 seconds until they can gain acces to stealth again. this would alrdy help this game mode by a lot with a simple change like that, so 2 teams wouldnt be able to just perma stealth for 30 secs until the other runs out so they can 1 shot them first.

And while we're at it, limit the damage/healing one can take in 1 second to 20% of his/her maximum health, if it gets capped out make them immune to damage/healing for 5 seconds after that(Oneshotting solved). Also make it so that players can only use 2 skills each second, and be unable to use skills for 5 second after that(Spamming solved). Also make it so that players are only able to move 200-ish distance a second, and if they cap out on the distance moved, they are immobile for 5 seconds after that(Exploiting mobility solved).

Sometimes I wonder if the serious/good suggestions aren't read and get lost because of threads like these. Because they are outnumbered by these NOTsmart suggestion by like 20 to 1.

[Burnfall.9573]

i was encouraged to post this here while taking time of from the thread. Ok, no more encouragement after this. :)Until than, take care.

'This weekend, Amazon Game Studios revealed that they were ditching their initial plans for an open-loot free-for-all PvP system in New World and making PvP an opt-in feature instead. Why the sudden change of heart? Well, apparently testers and devs ran into a little problem called griefing, and they weren’t too happy about it.'

'“One of the problems we observed with this system was that some high level players were killing low level players, A LOT. Sometimes exclusively. This often led to solo or group griefing scenarios that created a toxic environment for many players. To be clear, this behavior was not shown by all PvP players, but enough to cause significant issues.'

'We set out to build a compelling world full of danger and opportunity that begs to be explored. The intended design was never to allow a small group of players to bully other players.”'

''''- confirming all the worst fears of people who had looked hopefully on the talk of consequences and incentives and wondered if, again, they weren't just being baited into being sheep''

'“PvP is important to us and we are committed to ensuring it plays a significant role in our game. To be specific, by PvP we mean, fair fights that are organized, skill based, and opted into by all participants.Not PKing (Player Killing), which is a predatory behavior that relies on exploiting another player’s lack of experience, progress, readiness, or willingness''

'Player Killing and griefing have always been problems for free-for-all PvP games forcing developers to come up with various ways to keep them to a minimum, if not eliminate the problem altogether.'<<

'“

That model is toxic by design, because the PKer’s fun comes directly at the expense of someone else’s fun. It’s not a zero-sum game, and it’s not competitive.

'<<

[Tayga.3192]

GS power mesmer was a thing since forever (it was even staff/gs for a while), but million damage modifier traits weren't there.

[Daishi.6027]

One shots aren't by themselves unhealthy. In Gw2 it innately builds the need to learn to anticipate your opponent; and in a team based game things like this are what make map awareness part of the dynamic.

What is unhealthy is that you cannot easily punish one shot in return; whiffs should come with reliable punishment, or when given multiple attempts should reliably run out if it doesn't force a full and lengthy retreat.

Early Power Mesmer was a good example of this, since that was prior to gaining easy access super speed that synchronized with stealth, and if you were able to anticipate and avoid it, all you'd have to do to win the cap point 1v1 was to know how to evade shatters and be anything more durable than a ele or thief with zerk ammy. (in a time before they got an inflated amount of survivbaility cooldowns.)

[Avatar.3568]

Just one shot the thief lol

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Burnfall.9573 said:i was encouraged to post this here while taking time of from the thread. Ok, no more encouragement after this. :)Until than, take care.

'This weekend, Amazon Game Studios revealed that they were ditching their initial plans for an open-loot free-for-all PvP system in New World and making PvP an opt-in feature instead. Why the sudden change of heart? Well, apparently testers and devs ran into a little problem called griefing, and they weren’t too happy about it.'

'“One of the problems we observed with this system was that some high level players were killing low level players, A LOT. Sometimes exclusively. This often led to solo or group griefing scenarios that created a toxic environment for many players. To be clear, this behavior was not shown by all PvP players, but enough to cause significant issues.'

'We set out to build a compelling world full of danger and opportunity that begs to be explored. The intended design was never to allow a small group of players to bully other players.”'

''''- confirming all the worst fears of people who had looked hopefully on the talk of consequences and incentives and wondered if, again, they weren't just being baited into being sheep''

'“PvP is important to us and we are committed to ensuring it plays a significant role in our game. To be specific, by PvP we mean, fair fights that are organized, skill based, and opted into by all participants.Not PKing (Player Killing), which is a predatory behavior that relies on exploiting another player’s lack of experience, progress, readiness, or willingness''

'Player Killing and griefing have always been problems for free-for-all PvP games forcing developers to come up with various ways to keep them to a minimum, if not eliminate the problem altogether.'<<

'“

That model is toxic by design, because the PKer’s fun comes directly at the expense of someone else’s fun. It’s not a zero-sum game, and it’s not competitive.

'<<

Now griefing will be worse as players can opt out and freely scout for their group without threat or players can grief in other ways as well with this system. Their are defending better options than the opt out option for open world pvp that tea pot mentions in his vid on youtube as well as other methods players can grief using the the opt out system.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@ZDragon.3046 said:Most nerfs dont make a build unviable they make them have an obvious weakness as all builds should have.

Couple things.

You're absolutely right about builds needing to have an inbuilt weakness.As for people refusing to use builds when they are nerfed into having an obvious weakness, it's because of this

@Crab Fear.1624 said:some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

While nerfing overperforming builds down is useful, unless that nerfing is applied across the board, people will continue gravitating to whatever build allows them to be unkillable or whatever builds can oneshot the otherwise unkillable builds and afford them the least amount of time possible to heal.

Both unkillable bunker and untelegraphed oneshot are bad. Unless that hits every class at once (and quickly fixes the builds that manage to escape) its a pipe dream to expect people to just deal with and continue to play their builds being nerfed.