State Of Game Balance 3/5/20 - Let's Talk 2v2s & Conquest - Edited

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Yeah, so an hour after I made this post, they did a hotfix.

So working with an edit, I can say that after playing tonight, CCs are seriously a problem right now. Most matches you spend just as much time glued to the floor unable to move or use skills, as you spend up moving around using skills. This is starting to feel really clunky. I guess we'll see how it develops.

I have a bit of praise & other feedback for Arenanet:

2v2 Ranked Season:

• It's great. I'm having the most fun I've had in years, regardless of the balance issues. If these balance issues had not been present, this game mode would have been hot live man. Arenanet needs to pay attention here and not miss the ship that is sailing out into better reviews. People like these 2v2s. Please clean up the balance so it can shine.
• Players should not be kicked for inactivity if they die and their partner is attempting to survive to the timer.
• I feel that some significant implementations should be added into the 3x existing 2v2 maps. This is because each map too heavily favors certain types of approaches or tactics, which can quickly render certain build structures useless, or allow them to be too dominant. 1) Auric - This map heavily discourages ranged play due to the elevation of the steps in the middle of the map. This allows slower tankier build structures safe passage from their gate, up into the narrow corridors of the golden pathway, exactly where they want to catch a ranged attacker or something that requires space for mobility such as a Thief. The tanky builds also have plenty of LOS to fall back on while taking this position, and only a short distance to gap close, to chase builds who don't want to meet them in the golden pathway. Simply put, there is no room to kite in this map and it heavily favors slow tanky bruiser play. This map needs the Eternal Coliseum treatment, where more objects are added into the map that can allow stronger LOS play and room for jumping & kiting. 2) Hall - This map provides better kite play than Auric, with the pillars at the bottom of the steps, for any class to use. However, it provides too strong of kite play for classes that have mobility leaps, such as a Ranger GS #3 Swoop. Classes/Builds will such skills can go up to the top of one set of steps and leap across to the other ledge, completing disengaging any & all melee and most mid ranged pressure. I suggest adding a walk way that connects the two ledges, so that every class can move in between the ledges. This is to eliminate perpetual never ending kite play. It would also just be convenient to not have to jump down and walk all the way around the map up the steps, to be able to get to the other ledge, for any class. 3) Asura - Plenty of kiting room here. This is probably the most balanced map overall. There is however one problem. Ground targeted attacks and some pulsing channels can hit players through the thin floor. Some classes can seriously abuse this against other classes that cannot. I suggest making the ramp and platform thicker, so these types of attacks can't activate and hit players through the floor.

AT Balance & Swiss:

• Gonna open up by saying that the people who claim: "2v2 balance is different than Conquest" are kind of wrong but kind of right. Ok so first of all, FB/Necro/Malyx is just as dominant in Conquest as it is in 2v2s. <- This is very true. However, some things that are not viable in 2v2 at all, are at least functional in 5v5. A good example would be current Soulbeast, which is garbage in 2v2, but still playable in 5v5 Conquest. This is because in Conquest, Godzilla & Ghidorah are pressing nodes and standing on them to defend them. This allows a class like Soulbeast to roam around, do its decap thing, and set up for a DPS + Burst. However in 2v2s, Godzilla & Ghidorah are chasing you 100% of the time, denying you of that liberty. So players need to understand that the only difference between 2v2 dynamic and Conquest dynamic, is node priority. So what we're looking at is that, the only difference in "what is viable and what is not" between 2v2 and Conquest, is due to the node prioritization, which presents the ability to play the role of a DPS + Decap, which allows certain things to still be functional in Conquest. That is the only difference between the two modes. The combat strengths & weaknesses between each class are exactly the same between the two modes. Players should keep this in mind before tossing would-be suggestions & rants about the wrong things.
• Swiss is great. Everyone I've talked to is saying it was a good implementation. But there are a handful of small nuisances happening inside of the Swiss format. Outside of the reported bugs that I'm sure Arenanet is already working towards correcting, there are 2x things to note: 1) Players dropping out early - Swiss takes longer to complete. This opens up a larger margin of chance that a player will DC on you, or leave for whatever reason it may be. We should have up to the full queue pop timer, to kick an offline player and replace them before the match starts. 2) Not receiving rewards when a player drops out - This is particularly annoying. I'm not sure if this is even workable, or if this is just how Swiss has to be to avoid exploitation of rewards, but if it can be fixed, players should always be getting the full gold rewards & QPs for how far they played into the tournament.

[Vancho.8750]

You missed the dumb ress after ress after ress play in 2v2s it is also dumb in conquest but they kind of buffed it one patch for some dumb reason. Maybe they should put a bucket of skills and traits for 2v2 or in pvp as a whole.Edit: Forgot to add conditions are still bullshit and should not be in the game.

[Exedore.6320]

Sorry, the current state is still far from the worst ever. That title goes to the months after HoT where bunker chronomancer made conquest unplayable and single-handedly destroyed the competitive scene.

[GoQ.1048]

no mention of ranger hehe

[Vancho.8750]

@shinta.8906 said:no mention of ranger heheDruid might be back to the last son of krypton days, at least in wvw they are kinda immortal ,for pvp there is a condi druid version running around, not sure how viable.

@Exedore.6320 said:Sorry, the current state is still far from the worst ever. That title goes to the months after HoT where bunker chronomancer made conquest unplayable and single-handedly destroyed the costume scene.Water weaver probably is reaching the level of stupid of crono.

[Zexanima.7851]

This is my two cents, be it wrong or right idk.

Firebrands:

• Remove daze trait from axe 2
• Increase cooldown of axe 3 to 15 sec.
• Symbolic Avenger from 2% per stack to 1% per stack
• Remove blind from mantra of truth

Core Necro:

• Reduce lich form AA coefficient to 1.55 (33% reduction) So a 4k auto becomes a 2.6k auto. Still hurts, but not stupid strong.
• Reduce Fear of Death life force generation to 5%
• Reduce unholy sanctuary to 0.5% hps in shroud (50% reduction). Right now it can tick like warrior healing signet basically. Passive proc will now also grant immediate 10% LF

Herald Malyx:

• Yearning Empowerment to 10% torment damage and 10% torment duration down from 20%.
• Call to Angish is 2 sec immob instead of pull

[JayAction.9056]

I am Jay Savage.

I post on the forums all the time (lmfao). I played the current meta build years before it was ever complained about in this current patch

There is nothing OP about herald Mallyx in my opinion. I would argue it got weaker this patch as the things the forums are crying about already existed and got nerfed.

It is not that strong outside of this 2v2 format and nerfing Herald Mallyx will take rev out of any sort of worth while gaming.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

3. Herald Malyx - I don't know exactly what these people are running, but it's definitely the close runner to FB/Necro. Arenanet should be listening to players like @Shao.7236 @Master Ketsu.4569 or Jay Savage if he ever posted in this forum, he is currently running a nightmare level damage output Grieving Herald Malyx or something. Either way, I can't say much about it other than this class is just dealing too much damage in this meta, and it isn't just burst damage, it's like consistent super attrition.

Shao and Ketsu play subpar stuff. Always been that way

[Stand The Wall.6987]

problems imo:fb - mostly zeal, 9 sec cd traited mantras, maybe renewed focus recharge is doing too much, force of will +3k hpnec - undeath sig passive, fear of death, unholy sanctuary auto proc, sig gm recharge, lich autodunno about condi rev.soulbeast - fresh reinforcement might doubling, merged free stats from beast mastery, moment of clarity, a couple pet coeffsdeadeye - rifle cripple spam, rifle/ dagger +105%/ 70% dmg modscore mes - one shots are kinda lame but can be played around, honestly let mes have this one lol

hard cc's don't need damage. # 2 weapon skills need their damage back and should be 6 sec cd max so ppl can't out dodge them every time. 10 sec is a joke.

[Zexanima.7851]

@JayAction.9056 said:I am Jay Savage.

I post on the forums all the time (lmfao). I played the current meta build years before it was ever complained about in this current patch

There is nothing OP about herald Mallyx in my opinion. I would argue it got weaker this patch as the things the forums are crying about already existed and got nerfed.

It is not that strong outside of this 2v2 format and nerfing Herald Mallyx will take rev out of any sort of worth while gaming.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

3. Herald Malyx
   - I don't know exactly what these people are running, but it's definitely the close runner to FB/Necro. Arenanet should be listening to players like @Shao.7236 @Master Ketsu.4569 or Jay Savage if he ever posted in this forum, he is currently running a nightmare level damage output Grieving Herald Malyx or something. Either way, I can't say much about it other than this class is just dealing too much damage in this meta, and it isn't just burst damage, it's like consistent super attrition.

Shao and Ketsu play subpar stuff. Always been that way

It may have been nerfed but so was everything else. It was already popping up more before the patch. Now nearly every single match I play (2v2, unranked, AT) has a condi rev in it. People are playing it because it's good and currently better than most other options. Just because it needs tuning doesn't mean it has to be nuked from orbit. Nerfs don't have to be all or nothing, a good nerf won't be.

[Ziggityzog.7389]

I have a 90% loss rate vs fb and core necro combos all other combos I have a 90% - 100% win rate. Weird huh?

Sorry I'm not one of the sad lil pve pugs that run to the broken builds. Not my style.

[Dantheman.3589]

Like I know in 2v2s these are great but as long as a solid meta comp exist for 2v2s the ppl at top will dominate anyways...

@JayAction.9056 said:I am Jay Savage.

I post on the forums all the time (lmfao). I played the current meta build years before it was ever complained about in this current patch

There is nothing OP about herald Mallyx in my opinion. I would argue it got weaker this patch as the things the forums are crying about already existed and got nerfed.

It is not that strong outside of this 2v2 format and nerfing Herald Mallyx will take rev out of any sort of worth while gaming.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

3. Herald Malyx
   - I don't know exactly what these people are running, but it's definitely the close runner to FB/Necro. Arenanet should be listening to players like @Shao.7236 @Master Ketsu.4569 or Jay Savage if he ever posted in this forum, he is currently running a nightmare level damage output Grieving Herald Malyx or something. Either way, I can't say much about it other than this class is just dealing too much damage in this meta, and it isn't just burst damage, it's like consistent super attrition.

Shao and Ketsu play subpar stuff. Always been that way

In the case of condition rev I’m literally not even sure it’s that op. I do ats all the time and even if it’s team USA or other try hards running with condition rev they are actually ezier to beat than if they swap to stuff like FB or war to counter my teams, but maybe that’s just cuz we run a weird comp idk, so I’d just trust jay action on this one he’s been running condition rev for awhile and is pretty tough to beat on it

[Shao.7236]

@"JayAction.9056" Yeah draw your conclusions from someone as they came back after 2 month break THEN avoid them altogether or gank for "science", that's a good analysis of performance when you barely make it out and never had before then. You weren't the person that pushed Condition Revenant back in the meta before and after the updates, let that sink in as past seasons I have made it above you with this weak Herald Mallyx carbon copy everyone is running now, just as hypocritical as the MB Curators deleting reviews highlighting the hyper flaws of their personal opinions. I wouldn't trust anything you say as you couldn't even properly establish the difference in between Sword and Staff until 10 people had to point it out to you the obvious numbers.

[Swagger.1459]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 I could see your concerns, and many others, if this game were Guild Wars 2v2 MMORPG, but unfortunately it’s not. It’s not Guild Wars Duel Wars 2 either. It’s a team based online game, so keep that in mind.

[aymnad.9023]

2V2 data can definitely play a role into the 5V5 data even if they are not the same. After all small scale fights also happen in conquest.I did note the importance of healers / supports in 2V2. Is it the same in 5V5? I did not play a single conquest after the patch.The kick message popping because I am dead is just,... stressful :scream:

I like the things you did point on maps.
The bridge is a nightmare for me because I cannot hide while other specs just face tank and stick to me (or spam aoe).The hall is nice. Profession with tp get a small advantage but there are a lot of options to hide or attack.I like the arena. As you said some things hit through the floor, it can be a bit annoying to chase some professions but it looks and plays nice.

I do not play AT so I cannot comment on it.

Lastly the meta beeing locked so fast is a bit boring. Top runners are tanky, have cc and decent damage... But I do not think this is the worst case of balance we had (again maybe because I did not play conquest). I hated more the HoT bunker meta with scrappers and the start of PoF where things where out of control (spb killing teams with full counter). And those stood a long time before being nerfed… I will be waiting 1 or 3 weeks for the "quick patches" just in case.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@JayAction.9056 said:I am Jay Savage.

I post on the forums all the time (lmfao). I played the current meta build years before it was ever complained about in this current patch

There is nothing OP about herald Mallyx in my opinion. I would argue it got weaker this patch as the things the forums are crying about already existed and got nerfed.

It is not that strong outside of this 2v2 format and nerfing Herald Mallyx will take rev out of any sort of worth while gaming.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

3. Herald Malyx
   - I don't know exactly what these people are running, but it's definitely the close runner to FB/Necro. Arenanet should be listening to players like @Shao.7236 @"Master Ketsu.4569" or Jay Savage if he ever posted in this forum, he is currently running a nightmare level damage output Grieving Herald Malyx or something. Either way, I can't say much about it other than this class is just dealing too much damage in this meta, and it isn't just burst damage, it's like consistent super attrition.

Shao and Ketsu play subpar stuff. Always been that way

I actually play every single rev build both the meta and memes, except ventari because it's boring and currently extremely useless.

But you are partially right though. The condition Mallyx build is not as strong as people think it is, as it largely gets carried by support in 2v2. In a 1v1 it's actually pretty easy to CC and outplay. Unyielding anguish is one of the most telegraphed CCs in the game and easy to dodge, and the build has zero stability or passive blocks of any sort so CC locks will kill it.

The problem is as soon as you slap aegis spam / stability on the build from a support it becomes stupidly busted and no longer has any weakness. IMO they should nerf it slightly, then nerf monkeybrand a bit more, and then undo some of the nerfs to shiro.

I suspect some players who play condi builds other than condi rev are the ones complaining the loudest. Most of condi revs condition removal is in fact resistance followed by condition reflection from Pestilence and Demon facet consume, so anyone playing something such as burn guardian, condi ele, etc, will find themselves at a disadvantage if they themselves don't bring adequate condi removal.

Edit: Just noticed the hotfix balance today. Yeah, those aren't exactly the right changes. "jUst inCrEasE tHE CoOlDoWn" / "JuST iNcREaSe ThE EnERgy CoSt" / "jUsT LoWeR ThE DuRAtiON" style balancing rarely addresses what's wrong with it.

[Buran.3796]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

3. Herald Malyx - I don't know exactly what these people are running, but it's definitely the close runner to FB/Necro.

That's because there's no "meta" condi Rev; there's at least 3-4 viable condi builds which move from core Mallyx+Jalis, Herald Mallyx + Glint, Renegade Mallyx + Jalis and even Kalla sometimes. And weapons usually include mace and axe but sometimes also shield, shortbow and even the sword. The only thing that settled is that power Herald is now crap. Enjoy the bunker Nurgle meta which everyone was asking for.

[avey.4201]

This is the worst balance I've seen, DE, ranger, necro are capable of 1 shot, but DH can't return favor.Condi bunker was viable before patch, now there's no use trying to kill them.My suggestion, roll back patch, any evades not on dodge roll, replace with aegis, all invuln should be channeling invuln, add reveal for 2 seconds upon leaving stealth.Balance wasn't perfect before, but 100% better than this, nothing wrong with 1 shot when anyone can do it, but should never be able to 1 shot while hiding behind evade/invuln as they are not mechanically counter-able.

[KrHome.1920]

So much effort for a posting one day before it becomes obsolete...

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Hotfix today -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest

Whether anyone agrees or not with what happened, it was paid attention to.

That's all we wanted to see.

~ Thanks

[Shao.7236]

@Trevor Boyer.6524

I'm happy with those fixes, aside BE. Could have been 25 instead of 30 but I'll take it. Condi Rev is already out of the meta again for having some degree of thinking to it, every Revenant I saw fell back into Shiro but that's the good thing, Shiro isn't as cringy as it was before either.

[Poledra Val.1490]

I feel the mantra heal on FB was a massive over the top nerf in my opinion but everything else i agree with. Pretty much a useless heal now.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Well, it was obvious that specs that perform like this would dominate a 2 v 2 deathmatch.

If these are nerfed expect to find out what else can do this.

[Dantheman.3589]

Meh listening to specific players is kind of meme anet should be listening to quality arguements and post if anything on the forums at all. Bug shouldn’t exist and balance should hopefully be even across the board. Anything out of line if a potential to be brought into line or even changed to something more fun, not just the meta comp as the only difference in necro and firebrand being good on forums is just that everyone knows that they are strong.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@Dantheman.3589 said:Meh listening to specific players is kind of meme anet should be listening to quality arguements and post if anything on the forums at all. Bug shouldn’t exist and balance should hopefully be even across the board. Anything out of line if a potential to be brought into line or even changed to something more fun, not just the meta comp as the only difference in necro and firebrand being good on forums is just that everyone knows that they are strong.

What quality arguments?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

After the hotfix today, is anyone else noticing that builds rocking 80% uptime of CC are just, really making the game feel clunky?

I mean the combat is losing its fluid feel. I think it may have been a mistake to remove so many stun breaks and stab uptime.

From what I've seen tonight, the meta seems to now be shifting into mass CC spam builds, at least in 2v2s. This is not carrying a good flavor.