1 dodge in WVW is just.... terrible

[Yoci.2481]

@MysteryMen.3791 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Doug.4930 in pvp cmes loses most 1v1, in wvw every single class can ignore them, if you think otherwise its l2p issue.im playing berk gear, 0 cleanse 1dodgeman and I never die to cmes, EVER in wvw

I don't believe you. So we'll leave it at that.

You're talking complete nonsense. In SPvP mesmer has completely dropped off the map. It sees very little play in ranked. And in the MATs it wasn't taking into either the Semi-Finals or Finals at all. If Condi Mirage was a god tier 1v1 spec we'd see mesmer mains playing it on the side nodes in MATs. We don't.

Condi mirage has among the lowest damage of anything in the game, even compared to other condition builds. That's a mathematical fact. I've tested it. It just doesn't have the damage numbers to compete with other classes sustain and put them down.

cmirage has actually one of the highest condi bursts in the game, but it's quite squishy and can't sidenode

Again, math and testing shows that this is 100% not true.

you can't rly use math in a game like gw2 and maybe you're just a bad mirage :)

Of course you can use maths in a video game. Make your point more clear please.

no you can't use maths in a game like GW2. When you do that you are just looking at 2 players running full skill rotations with no evades/blocks/ccs. GW2 combat you can apply maths but its not always true to the reality of how it would play out in a fight.

Well the game is literally maths, but anyway if in an ideal scenario (maths world) Mesmer sucks it's not going to get any better in the actual game, it can only get worse. So really you are working against your own point here.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

5907 strikes again. Quarantine must have been boring.

[mortrialus.3062]

@MysteryMen.3791 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Doug.4930 in pvp cmes loses most 1v1, in wvw every single class can ignore them, if you think otherwise its l2p issue.im playing berk gear, 0 cleanse 1dodgeman and I never die to cmes, EVER in wvw

I don't believe you. So we'll leave it at that.

You're talking complete nonsense. In SPvP mesmer has completely dropped off the map. It sees very little play in ranked. And in the MATs it wasn't taking into either the Semi-Finals or Finals at all. If Condi Mirage was a god tier 1v1 spec we'd see mesmer mains playing it on the side nodes in MATs. We don't.

Condi mirage has among the lowest damage of anything in the game, even compared to other condition builds. That's a mathematical fact. I've tested it. It just doesn't have the damage numbers to compete with other classes sustain and put them down.

cmirage has actually one of the highest condi bursts in the game, but it's quite squishy and can't sidenode

Again, math and testing shows that this is 100% not true.

you can't rly use math in a game like gw2 and maybe you're just a bad mirage :)

You actually can, because GW2's combat system involves math. For starters condition mesmer can't come anywhere near to level of condition burst and damage as anything that can stack a lot of burning specifically like Guardian, Elementalist, and Engineer. Thief and rev are also significantly burstier in terms of condition damage.

Mesmer is mathmatically across the board the lowest damage class in the game. That's just a fact.

thats just factually incorrect, mesmer has problems and none of them are damage. mesmer damage combo assuming you do torch 4/5 as opening and then combo into either axe or sword burst you'll get a potential oneshot. Maybe try improving or fixing your build :)

Torch 4+5 is less than 700 damage per second over 9 seconds. You aren't one shotting with Torch 4+5 into Axes of Symmetry Into Cry of Frustration. Look at what you're up against, condition revs with long duration on demand resistance, plus two healing skills, one of which pops resistance the other is full on damage reversal you can't stop. And it pumps out significantly higher condition damage per second than 600 Or condition thief who can with two buttons do a significantly stronger condition damage combo than the one you described.

Mesmer is mathematically the lowest damage class in the game. This was true before the MegaBalance patch gutted their condition damage skills by 50% and also culled all the expertise of which only mesmer was really using for their damage anyway. It is doubly true afterwords. That's just a fact. I've tested it. I've made threads showing how I've tested various burst combos and the damage potential on pretty much every single meta build power and condi with realistic stats and averages and obtained REAL numbers with ArcDPS. Don't believe me? Go do your own testing.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@Doug.4930 said:@"TrollingDemigod.3041"

You're wasting your time. Post any thread criticizing balance of any class in that classes subsection and you'll be met with people who main that class trying to convince everyone around them that their main is the most under powered class.This section is no different its just die hard Mesmer mains convinced that Anet oppresses their class, and you get this attitude in every single classes respective forum.Oh, don't worry, it's actually pretty interesting how they defend it, you can learn a lot about human behaviour this way. So far, no one really said how to counter 1 specific build after I started talking about it, it says really a lot about them. To be honest, I'm still waiting for real arguments why they think their class is "bad" when I've pointed a very strong build that is very toxic to the game mode(after how many nerfs?), the only answer I've got so far is "lmao, don't hit clones to not get 20 torment" and I even checked all traits on Mesmer and still don't see anything like "If enemy hit you or your clones apply x torment on them". so it's either they don't know how their own class work or there is some juicy bug/exploit that they've not reported yet. (Looks like there is new meta that says "don't reduce mesmers attack potential by killing off their clones and let it do dmg to you")GW2 like any other program is based mostly on math one way or another, but even though there are some equations here and there, at the end of the day it's RNG that decides of trait procs etc. Of course, RNG in the program is just an imitation/illusion at most.SO anyway guys, still waiting for your tips how to deal with it, I'm gonna say this already: LoS, Condi Cleanse, Dodge, Ignore it, Pressure it, Burst it from stealth, etc. - are unacceptable answers, write from A to Z every possible way to counter that specific build on every other classes/builds, what to do if they use X skill, what are most efficient traits/skills to counter them, etc. etc.If you're gonna use "l2p" card, you can as well write an essay how to counter that build properly, so actually people can LEARN instead of you throwing useless words. Another big + if you actually post a video with slow motion so people can actually see what's happening on the screen aka: can you see it in this sun flare on the screen? this 1 pixel says that mesmer is going to use Mind Wrack, so you should...

[viquing.8254]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Doug.4930 said:@TrollingDemigod.3041

You're wasting your time. Post any thread criticizing balance of any class in that classes subsection and you'll be met with people who main that class trying to convince everyone around them that their main is the most under powered class.This section is no different its just die hard Mesmer mains convinced that Anet oppresses their class, and you get this attitude in every single classes respective forum.Oh, don't worry, it's actually pretty interesting how they defend it, you can learn a lot about human behaviour this way. So far, no one really said how to counter 1 specific build after I started talking about it, it says really a lot about them. To be honest, I'm still waiting for real arguments why they think their class is "bad" when I've pointed a very strong build that is very toxic to the game mode(after how many nerfs?), the only answer I've got so far is "lmao, don't hit clones to not get 20 torment" and I even checked all traits on Mesmer and still don't see anything like "If enemy hit you or your clones apply x torment on them". so it's either they don't know how their own class work or there is some juicy bug/exploit that they've not reported yet. (Looks like there is new meta that says "don't reduce mesmers attack potential by killing off their clones and let it do dmg to you")GW2 like any other program is based mostly on math one way or another, but even though there are some equations here and there, at the end of the day it's RNG that decides of trait procs etc. Of course, RNG in the program is just an imitation/illusion at most.SO anyway guys, still waiting for your tips how to deal with it, I'm gonna say this already: LoS, Condi Cleanse, Dodge, Ignore it, Pressure it, Burst it from stealth, etc. - are unacceptable answers, write from A to Z every possible way to counter that specific build on every other classes/builds, what to do if they use X skill, what are most efficient traits/skills to counter them, etc. etc.If you're gonna use "l2p" card, you can as well write an essay how to counter that build properly, so actually people can LEARN instead of you throwing useless words. Another big + if you actually post a video with slow motion so people can actually see what's happening on the screen aka: can you see it in this sun flare on the screen? this 1 pixel says that mesmer is going to use Mind Wrack, so you should...

Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest (particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)Go to mAt stream, go to quater final, look at how other class manage condi mirage when facing misha : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/602371124

So you look pretty fun whinning about mesmer but let's be real, if you die versus condi mes, you die versus every other class faster.So yeah lmao, l2p or keep dreaming.

[Doug.4930]

@viquing.8254 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Doug.4930 said:@TrollingDemigod.3041

You're wasting your time. Post any thread criticizing balance of any class in that classes subsection and you'll be met with people who main that class trying to convince everyone around them that their main is the most under powered class.This section is no different its just die hard Mesmer mains convinced that Anet oppresses their class, and you get this attitude in every single classes respective forum.Oh, don't worry, it's actually pretty interesting how they defend it, you can learn a lot about human behaviour this way. So far, no one really said how to counter 1 specific build after I started talking about it, it says really a lot about them. To be honest, I'm still waiting for real arguments why they think their class is "bad" when I've pointed a very strong build that is very toxic to the game mode(after how many nerfs?), the only answer I've got so far is "lmao, don't hit clones to not get 20 torment" and I even checked all traits on Mesmer and still don't see anything like "If enemy hit you or your clones apply x torment on them". so it's either they don't know how their own class work or there is some juicy bug/exploit that they've not reported yet. (Looks like there is new meta that says "don't reduce mesmers attack potential by killing off their clones and let it do dmg to you")GW2 like any other program is based mostly on math one way or another, but even though there are some equations here and there, at the end of the day it's RNG that decides of trait procs etc. Of course, RNG in the program is just an imitation/illusion at most.SO anyway guys, still waiting for your tips how to deal with it, I'm gonna say this already: LoS, Condi Cleanse, Dodge, Ignore it, Pressure it, Burst it from stealth, etc. - are unacceptable answers, write from A to Z every possible way to counter that specific build on every other classes/builds, what to do if they use X skill, what are most efficient traits/skills to counter them, etc. etc.If you're gonna use "l2p" card, you can as well write an essay how to counter that build properly, so actually people can LEARN instead of you throwing useless words. Another big + if you actually post a video with slow motion so people can actually see what's happening on the screen aka: can you see it in this sun flare on the screen? this 1 pixel says that mesmer is going to use Mind Wrack, so you should...

Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest

(particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)Go to mAt stream, go to quater final, look at how other class manage condi mirage when facing misha :

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/602371124

So you look pretty fun whinning about mesmer but let's be real, if you die versus condi mes, you die versus every other class faster.So yeah lmao, l2p or keep dreaming.

Ermmm..... Did you really just link me a video from 2018 showing why condi mesmer isn't that great now? Mate that was 2 years ago. Before the giant DPS nerf.And you're linking me Spvp videos? I don't care about Spvp in this context, read the title of this thread please, stop linking build choices/statistics about Spvp players in a thread about WvW.

Also @mortrialus.3062Don't care about Spvp right now, this is about 1 dodge in WvW. WvW and Spvp are a completely different kettle of fish. What is good in WvW is not necessarily good in Spvp. If you think mirage should get 2 dodges in Spvp make a thread about how mirage should have 2 dodges in spvp.

I stand firm that condi mirage in the right hands is a very effective class in WvW, and giving mirage back its dodge would be further buffing a build that simply doesn't need buffing. It can build for high stealth uptime/stunbearkers/mobility/invulnvs/gap closers/condi clears/high damage all at once. Its a damn effective build. I'm not whining about it crying for anet to nerf it, hell after some of the meta builds seen in the pre power nerf patch condi mesmer isn't really that bad. But to say that Condi mirage is ineffective with only one dodge is just not true at all. It is in my opinion one of the strongest roamers in WvW.

Feel free to disagree with me, I don't feel like im projecting salt here, I'm just giving my opinion.

[viquing.8254]

@Doug.4930 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Doug.4930 said:@TrollingDemigod.3041

You're wasting your time. Post any thread criticizing balance of any class in that classes subsection and you'll be met with people who main that class trying to convince everyone around them that their main is the most under powered class.This section is no different its just die hard Mesmer mains convinced that Anet oppresses their class, and you get this attitude in every single classes respective forum.Oh, don't worry, it's actually pretty interesting how they defend it, you can learn a lot about human behaviour this way. So far, no one really said how to counter 1 specific build after I started talking about it, it says really a lot about them. To be honest, I'm still waiting for real arguments why they think their class is "bad" when I've pointed a very strong build that is very toxic to the game mode(after how many nerfs?), the only answer I've got so far is "lmao, don't hit clones to not get 20 torment" and I even checked all traits on Mesmer and still don't see anything like "If enemy hit you or your clones apply x torment on them". so it's either they don't know how their own class work or there is some juicy bug/exploit that they've not reported yet. (Looks like there is new meta that says "don't reduce mesmers attack potential by killing off their clones and let it do dmg to you")GW2 like any other program is based mostly on math one way or another, but even though there are some equations here and there, at the end of the day it's RNG that decides of trait procs etc. Of course, RNG in the program is just an imitation/illusion at most.SO anyway guys, still waiting for your tips how to deal with it, I'm gonna say this already: LoS, Condi Cleanse, Dodge, Ignore it, Pressure it, Burst it from stealth, etc. - are unacceptable answers, write from A to Z every possible way to counter that specific build on every other classes/builds, what to do if they use X skill, what are most efficient traits/skills to counter them, etc. etc.If you're gonna use "l2p" card, you can as well write an essay how to counter that build properly, so actually people can LEARN instead of you throwing useless words. Another big + if you actually post a video with slow motion so people can actually see what's happening on the screen aka: can you see it in this sun flare on the screen? this 1 pixel says that mesmer is going to use Mind Wrack, so you should...

Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest

(particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)Go to mAt stream, go to quater final, look at how other class manage condi mirage when facing misha :

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/602371124

So you look pretty fun whinning about mesmer but let's be real, if you die versus condi mes, you die versus every other class faster.So yeah lmao, l2p or keep dreaming.

Ermmm..... Did you really just link me a video from 2018 showing why condi mesmer isn't that great now? Mate that was 2 years ago. Before the giant DPS nerf.And you're linking me Spvp videos? I don't care about Spvp in this context, read the title of this thread please, stop linking build choices/statistics about Spvp players in a thread about WvW.

Also @mortrialus.3062Don't care about Spvp right now, this is about 1 dodge in WvW. WvW and Spvp are a completely different kettle of fish. What is good in WvW is not necessarily good in Spvp. If you think mirage should get 2 dodges in Spvp make a thread about how mirage should have 2 dodges in spvp.

I stand firm that condi mirage in the right hands is a very effective class in WvW, and giving mirage back its dodge would be further buffing a build that simply doesn't need buffing. It can build for high stealth uptime/stunbearkers/mobility/invulnvs/gap closers/condi clears/high damage all at once. Its a kitten effective build. I'm not whining about it crying for anet to nerf it, hell after some of the meta builds seen in the pre power nerf patch condi mesmer isn't really that bad. But to say that Condi mirage is ineffective with only one dodge is just not true at all. It is in my opinion one of the strongest roamers in WvW.

Feel free to disagree with me, I don't feel like im projecting salt here, I'm just giving my opinion.

If you think I link 2018 videos, the l2P issue is higher than what we though. The first step to progress is to learn to read.

Dodging obvious output and condiclear the 1 unobvious one is the same in PvP and WvW. Statistics has nothing to do with that.What WvW does is that it make cheesy build even cheesier and as some player tell you this, if mesmer can build to increase his evade uptime, opponents can do the same. Now the particularity of WvW is that player mainly come in PvE zerk build with no condiclear and all damage traits which just make them freekill 80% of the time.

It's not even disagreing at this point.

[Doug.4930]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Doug.4930 said:@TrollingDemigod.3041

You're wasting your time. Post any thread criticizing balance of any class in that classes subsection and you'll be met with people who main that class trying to convince everyone around them that their main is the most under powered class.This section is no different its just die hard Mesmer mains convinced that Anet oppresses their class, and you get this attitude in every single classes respective forum.Oh, don't worry, it's actually pretty interesting how they defend it, you can learn a lot about human behaviour this way. So far, no one really said how to counter 1 specific build after I started talking about it, it says really a lot about them. To be honest, I'm still waiting for real arguments why they think their class is "bad" when I've pointed a very strong build that is very toxic to the game mode(after how many nerfs?), the only answer I've got so far is "lmao, don't hit clones to not get 20 torment" and I even checked all traits on Mesmer and still don't see anything like "If enemy hit you or your clones apply x torment on them". so it's either they don't know how their own class work or there is some juicy bug/exploit that they've not reported yet. (Looks like there is new meta that says "don't reduce mesmers attack potential by killing off their clones and let it do dmg to you")GW2 like any other program is based mostly on math one way or another, but even though there are some equations here and there, at the end of the day it's RNG that decides of trait procs etc. Of course, RNG in the program is just an imitation/illusion at most.SO anyway guys, still waiting for your tips how to deal with it, I'm gonna say this already: LoS, Condi Cleanse, Dodge, Ignore it, Pressure it, Burst it from stealth, etc. - are unacceptable answers, write from A to Z every possible way to counter that specific build on every other classes/builds, what to do if they use X skill, what are most efficient traits/skills to counter them, etc. etc.If you're gonna use "l2p" card, you can as well write an essay how to counter that build properly, so actually people can LEARN instead of you throwing useless words. Another big + if you actually post a video with slow motion so people can actually see what's happening on the screen aka: can you see it in this sun flare on the screen? this 1 pixel says that mesmer is going to use Mind Wrack, so you should...

Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest

(particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)Go to mAt stream, go to quater final, look at how other class manage condi mirage when facing misha :

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/602371124

So you look pretty fun whinning about mesmer but let's be real, if you die versus condi mes, you die versus every other class faster.So yeah lmao, l2p or keep dreaming.

Ermmm..... Did you really just link me a video from 2018 showing why condi mesmer isn't that great now? Mate that was 2 years ago. Before the giant DPS nerf.And you're linking me Spvp videos? I don't care about Spvp in this context, read the title of this thread please, stop linking build choices/statistics about Spvp players in a thread about WvW.

Also @mortrialus.3062Don't care about Spvp right now, this is about 1 dodge in WvW. WvW and Spvp are a completely different kettle of fish. What is good in WvW is not necessarily good in Spvp. If you think mirage should get 2 dodges in Spvp make a thread about how mirage should have 2 dodges in spvp.

I stand firm that condi mirage in the right hands is a very effective class in WvW, and giving mirage back its dodge would be further buffing a build that simply doesn't need buffing. It can build for high stealth uptime/stunbearkers/mobility/invulnvs/gap closers/condi clears/high damage all at once. Its a kitten effective build. I'm not whining about it crying for anet to nerf it, hell after some of the meta builds seen in the pre power nerf patch condi mesmer isn't really that bad. But to say that Condi mirage is ineffective with only one dodge is just not true at all. It is in my opinion one of the strongest roamers in WvW.

Feel free to disagree with me, I don't feel like im projecting salt here, I'm just giving my opinion.

If you think I link 2018 videos, the l2P issue is higher than what we though. The first step to progress is to learn to read.

@viquing.8254 said:Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest

(particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)

Well I went to his n- 1 vid (did you mean number 1 in that thread? or was i supposed to filter by view count on their channel?) and it was from 2018. I'm not going to dig through entire video's looking for a specific condi mirage fight. Regardless, it wouldn't be relevant anyway. Jazz could just be an awesome mesmer fighting a sub par mirage mesmer. Builds can be overcome if the skill gap is great enough.

@viquing.8254 said:Dodging obvious output and condiclear the 1 unobvious one is the same in PvP and WvW. Statistics has nothing to do with that.

No effectiveness in WvW and Spvp are completely different. The two types of game-play do not go hand in hand. 2 roamers fighting eachother in WvW is nothing like a 5v5 spvp match. I'm afraid that bringing Spvp pick rates into a discussion about how a class performs in WvW is simply a non factor.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@"viquing.8254" said:Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest (particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)Go to mAt stream, go to quater final, look at how other class manage condi mirage when facing misha : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/602371124

So you look pretty fun whinning about mesmer but let's be real, if you die versus condi mes, you die versus every other class faster.So yeah lmao, l2p or keep dreaming.

I want all classes nerfed to the ground, especially those that are drunk on powercreep, including my own main, which IMO suffers from bad design and dumbed down mechanical requirement to use and promotes spammability.So... you just gave me few links, 1 of which is 6h stream and explained nothing yourself how to fight condi mesmer, noice. It really seems like you don't use your own class at all if you can't do that much.Don't link PvP stuff though, since the cheese level isn't as high as in WvW and overall playfield is quite different from each other.So in short, I can't ask for fixing a class that is designed poorly from the very start? Oh right, someone even wrote "lmao just learn to play with bugs" in different topic.Once again, I ask you Mesmer overlords for:How to counter Condi Mirage in WvW, you MUST include:Every other class/build available in the game.Every skill/trait/items that is required to counter it.Every move and counter move on video in X situation: open field(no structures in sight), with few objectives in sight, etc.Every important skill on video that need to be looked out for, from attacker perspective and from attacked ones too(in slowmotion to see clearly animation).Additional points: provide analysis to each encounter and summarise it what was done good/wrong; an opponent must be as "equally" skilled as you.Unacceptable answers that I always ignore since they don't provide any valuable information:L2P, Just dodge LoL, Just LoS LOL, Just cleanse LOL, linked videos that provide only 1 perspective from 1 person from fights that are 90% of time one-sided to say the least.Consider it as a challenge, trust me, a lot of new players will love you for doing it.

P.S. I'm watching from time to time Jazz and others to see or understand, but what I mostly see in these videos are 1 sided fights.

[viquing.8254]

@Doug.4930 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Doug.4930 said:@TrollingDemigod.3041

You're wasting your time. Post any thread criticizing balance of any class in that classes subsection and you'll be met with people who main that class trying to convince everyone around them that their main is the most under powered class.This section is no different its just die hard Mesmer mains convinced that Anet oppresses their class, and you get this attitude in every single classes respective forum.Oh, don't worry, it's actually pretty interesting how they defend it, you can learn a lot about human behaviour this way. So far, no one really said how to counter 1 specific build after I started talking about it, it says really a lot about them. To be honest, I'm still waiting for real arguments why they think their class is "bad" when I've pointed a very strong build that is very toxic to the game mode(after how many nerfs?), the only answer I've got so far is "lmao, don't hit clones to not get 20 torment" and I even checked all traits on Mesmer and still don't see anything like "If enemy hit you or your clones apply x torment on them". so it's either they don't know how their own class work or there is some juicy bug/exploit that they've not reported yet. (Looks like there is new meta that says "don't reduce mesmers attack potential by killing off their clones and let it do dmg to you")GW2 like any other program is based mostly on math one way or another, but even though there are some equations here and there, at the end of the day it's RNG that decides of trait procs etc. Of course, RNG in the program is just an imitation/illusion at most.SO anyway guys, still waiting for your tips how to deal with it, I'm gonna say this already: LoS, Condi Cleanse, Dodge, Ignore it, Pressure it, Burst it from stealth, etc. - are unacceptable answers, write from A to Z every possible way to counter that specific build on every other classes/builds, what to do if they use X skill, what are most efficient traits/skills to counter them, etc. etc.If you're gonna use "l2p" card, you can as well write an essay how to counter that build properly, so actually people can LEARN instead of you throwing useless words. Another big + if you actually post a video with slow motion so people can actually see what's happening on the screen aka: can you see it in this sun flare on the screen? this 1 pixel says that mesmer is going to use Mind Wrack, so you should...

Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest

(particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)Go to mAt stream, go to quater final, look at how other class manage condi mirage when facing misha :

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/602371124

So you look pretty fun whinning about mesmer but let's be real, if you die versus condi mes, you die versus every other class faster.So yeah lmao, l2p or keep dreaming.

Ermmm..... Did you really just link me a video from 2018 showing why condi mesmer isn't that great now? Mate that was 2 years ago. Before the giant DPS nerf.And you're linking me Spvp videos? I don't care about Spvp in this context, read the title of this thread please, stop linking build choices/statistics about Spvp players in a thread about WvW.

Also @mortrialus.3062Don't care about Spvp right now, this is about 1 dodge in WvW. WvW and Spvp are a completely different kettle of fish. What is good in WvW is not necessarily good in Spvp. If you think mirage should get 2 dodges in Spvp make a thread about how mirage should have 2 dodges in spvp.

I stand firm that condi mirage in the right hands is a very effective class in WvW, and giving mirage back its dodge would be further buffing a build that simply doesn't need buffing. It can build for high stealth uptime/stunbearkers/mobility/invulnvs/gap closers/condi clears/high damage all at once. Its a kitten effective build. I'm not whining about it crying for anet to nerf it, hell after some of the meta builds seen in the pre power nerf patch condi mesmer isn't really that bad. But to say that Condi mirage is ineffective with only one dodge is just not true at all. It is in my opinion one of the strongest roamers in WvW.

Feel free to disagree with me, I don't feel like im projecting salt here, I'm just giving my opinion.

If you think I link 2018 videos, the l2P issue is higher than what we though. The first step to progress is to learn to read.

@viquing.8254 said:Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest

(particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)

Well I went to his n- 1 vid (did you mean number 1 in that thread? or was i supposed to filter by view count on their channel?) and it was from 2018. I'm not going to dig through entire video's looking for a specific condi mirage fight. Regardless, it wouldn't be relevant anyway. Jazz could just be an awesome mesmer fighting a sub par mirage mesmer. Builds can be overcome if the skill gap is great enough.

n = last vid.n - 1 = vid just before last vid.He play against plat condi mes.

@viquing.8254 said:Dodging obvious output and condiclear the 1 unobvious one is the same in PvP and WvW. Statistics has nothing to do with that.

No effectiveness in WvW and Spvp are completely different. The two types of game-play do not go hand in hand. 2 roamers fighting eachother in WvW is nothing like a 5v5 spvp match. I'm afraid that bringing Spvp pick rates into a discussion about how a class performs in WvW is simply a non factor.

Yeah evading a burst in WvW is different from evading a burst in PvP. (or not.)From game launch to HoT I play only WvW, during HoT I play WvW decreasing to 0 play while playing PvP.The only difference in terms of gameplay betweeen the two is that you have to time your evade in PvP to not wasting them while you have to burn it in WvW because of outnumbered situations more frequent.Evading key skills in the two game mode is exatly the same.Now instead of asking for player to give arguments and vid why didn't YOU came with vids and factual data so we can discuss about huh ?

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest

(particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)Go to mAt stream, go to quater final, look at how other class manage condi mirage when facing misha :

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/602371124

So you look pretty fun whinning about mesmer but let's be real, if you die versus condi mes, you die versus every other class faster.So yeah lmao, l2p or keep dreaming.

I want all classes nerfed to the ground, especially those that are drunk on powercreep, including my own main, which IMO suffers from bad design and dumbed down mechanical requirement to use and promotes spammability.So... you just gave me few links, 1 of which is 6h stream and explained nothing yourself how to fight condi mesmer, noice. It really seems like you don't use your own class at all if you can't do that much.Don't link PvP stuff though, since the cheese level isn't as high as in WvW and overall playfield is quite different from each other.So in short, I can't ask for fixing a class that is designed poorly from the very start? Oh right, someone even wrote "lmao just learn to play with bugs" in different topic.Once again, I ask you Mesmer overlords for:How to counter Condi Mirage in WvW, you MUST include:Every other class/build available in the game.Every skill/trait/items that is required to counter it.Every move and counter move on video in X situation: open field(no structures in sight), with few objectives in sight, etc.Every important skill on video that need to be looked out for, from attacker perspective and from attacked ones too(in slowmotion to see clearly animation).Additional points: provide analysis to each encounter and summarise it what was done good/wrong; an opponent must be as "equally" skilled as you.Unacceptable answers that I always ignore since they don't provide any valuable information:L2P, Just dodge LoL, Just LoS LOL, Just cleanse LOL, linked videos that provide only 1 perspective from 1 person from fights that are 90% of time one-sided to say the least.Consider it as a challenge, trust me, a lot of new players will love you for doing it.

P.S. I'm watching from time to time Jazz and others to see or understand, but what I mostly see in these videos are 1 sided fights.

Will do it simple :Give me a vids or prove of how mesmer is op in WvW and I will detailled to you how bad the opponent is and what he could do to counter it.Or I can go on a 2h played other class to explode you on a mesmer if you prefer if you want challenge.If you think Jazz vids are one sided you are really bad because he basically is facing counter-comps from plat2/leg players. So only his skill and teamplay make this one sided. Try to kill a condi rev with a no boonclear mes just to figure it out.

Now the simple tip rule is :

• Keep condiclear to clean F2.
• Evade pistol CC and predictable torch burst.
• Put cripple/chill if you have and play with him unable to keep melee.
• Overcondi him.
• Wait the mono evade then CC/burst him after pressuring him to burn his distortion.

Now I can add more weakness class dependant :War can free Fx versus clones to proc condiclear/traits.Thief can outstealth easily.Ranger can maintain ranged pressure to kite easily.Necro can chain fear, corrupt, transfert condi.Ele can over condiclear everything and have way better evade uptime.FB can over condiclear and condipressure to hell.Holo and Rev can instant destroy clones with aoe, and have better block/evade uptime than you have.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I've said this several times but will say it again. I killed condi mirages ez with only two condi cleanses and this was like an year, year and half ago when condi mirage was "unkillable op permaevade 300 stacks of condies".If you suck at game you can only blame it on yourself.

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

It's a common theme in literally every game with some kind of rogue or illusion type class. Illusion and Rogue classes are tricky, play dirty, and require the opponent to actually think. Where other classes are more straight forward, Rogues and Illusion Mages are much more subtle, deceitful and tricky. But as with every game that has these classes, the playerbase has no interest in thinking, and countering, and putting in the mental effort to fight them. So they whine and cry until the Devs inevitably respond by bringing the nerf hammer down. And this will continue to happen as long as the nerf criers realize they can continually get their way by complaining, instead of learning and adapting.

My suggestion with the current trend of nerfing Mesmer and Thief is that they may as well just delete all of our Mesmer and Thief characters' avatars and replace them with a loot bag, since that seems to be the end goal for anti-thieves and anti-mesmers. And ArenaNet will undoubtedly appease them.

It's a shame to see my two favorite classes get continually hammered with the nerf bat. But It's also not surprising, since that's what I've seen in pretty much every game that has these two class types. If you enjoy trickery and deceit, if you enjoy playing mind games with your opponent, well too bad for you. That's the mentality of the modern MMO gamer these days.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Doug.4930 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Doug.4930 said:@TrollingDemigod.3041

You're wasting your time. Post any thread criticizing balance of any class in that classes subsection and you'll be met with people who main that class trying to convince everyone around them that their main is the most under powered class.This section is no different its just die hard Mesmer mains convinced that Anet oppresses their class, and you get this attitude in every single classes respective forum.Oh, don't worry, it's actually pretty interesting how they defend it, you can learn a lot about human behaviour this way. So far, no one really said how to counter 1 specific build after I started talking about it, it says really a lot about them. To be honest, I'm still waiting for real arguments why they think their class is "bad" when I've pointed a very strong build that is very toxic to the game mode(after how many nerfs?), the only answer I've got so far is "lmao, don't hit clones to not get 20 torment" and I even checked all traits on Mesmer and still don't see anything like "If enemy hit you or your clones apply x torment on them". so it's either they don't know how their own class work or there is some juicy bug/exploit that they've not reported yet. (Looks like there is new meta that says "don't reduce mesmers attack potential by killing off their clones and let it do dmg to you")GW2 like any other program is based mostly on math one way or another, but even though there are some equations here and there, at the end of the day it's RNG that decides of trait procs etc. Of course, RNG in the program is just an imitation/illusion at most.SO anyway guys, still waiting for your tips how to deal with it, I'm gonna say this already: LoS, Condi Cleanse, Dodge, Ignore it, Pressure it, Burst it from stealth, etc. - are unacceptable answers, write from A to Z every possible way to counter that specific build on every other classes/builds, what to do if they use X skill, what are most efficient traits/skills to counter them, etc. etc.If you're gonna use "l2p" card, you can as well write an essay how to counter that build properly, so actually people can LEARN instead of you throwing useless words. Another big + if you actually post a video with slow motion so people can actually see what's happening on the screen aka: can you see it in this sun flare on the screen? this 1 pixel says that mesmer is going to use Mind Wrack, so you should...

Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest

(particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)Go to mAt stream, go to quater final, look at how other class manage condi mirage when facing misha :

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/602371124

So you look pretty fun whinning about mesmer but let's be real, if you die versus condi mes, you die versus every other class faster.So yeah lmao, l2p or keep dreaming.

Ermmm..... Did you really just link me a video from 2018 showing why condi mesmer isn't that great now? Mate that was 2 years ago. Before the giant DPS nerf.And you're linking me Spvp videos? I don't care about Spvp in this context, read the title of this thread please, stop linking build choices/statistics about Spvp players in a thread about WvW.

Also @mortrialus.3062Don't care about Spvp right now, this is about 1 dodge in WvW. WvW and Spvp are a completely different kettle of fish. What is good in WvW is not necessarily good in Spvp. If you think mirage should get 2 dodges in Spvp make a thread about how mirage should have 2 dodges in spvp.

I stand firm that condi mirage in the right hands is a very effective class in WvW, and giving mirage back its dodge would be further buffing a build that simply doesn't need buffing. It can build for high stealth uptime/stunbearkers/mobility/invulnvs/gap closers/condi clears/high damage all at once. Its a kitten effective build. I'm not whining about it crying for anet to nerf it, hell after some of the meta builds seen in the pre power nerf patch condi mesmer isn't really that bad. But to say that Condi mirage is ineffective with only one dodge is just not true at all. It is in my opinion one of the strongest roamers in WvW.

Feel free to disagree with me, I don't feel like im projecting salt here, I'm just giving my opinion.

If you think I link 2018 videos, the l2P issue is higher than what we though. The first step to progress is to learn to read.

@viquing.8254 said:Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest

(particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)

Well I went to his n- 1 vid (did you mean number 1 in that thread? or was i supposed to filter by view count on their channel?) and it was from 2018. I'm not going to dig through entire video's looking for a specific condi mirage fight. Regardless, it wouldn't be relevant anyway. Jazz could just be an awesome mesmer fighting a sub par mirage mesmer. Builds can be overcome if the skill gap is great enough.

@viquing.8254 said:Dodging obvious output and condiclear the 1 unobvious one is the same in PvP and WvW. Statistics has nothing to do with that.

No effectiveness in WvW and Spvp are completely different. The two types of game-play do not go hand in hand. 2 roamers fighting eachother in WvW is nothing like a 5v5 spvp match. I'm afraid that bringing Spvp pick rates into a discussion about how a class performs in WvW is simply a non factor.

n and (n-1) or (n - x) IS MATHS! learn MATH then learn to apply it so Mesmer and damage then come back and admit Viquing is correct and YOU LACK MATH SKILLS.

[HowlKamui.5120]

@Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:It's a common theme in literally every game with some kind of rogue or illusion type class. Illusion and Rogue classes are tricky, play dirty, and require the opponent to actually think. Where other classes are more straight forward, Rogues and Illusion Mages are much more subtle, deceitful and tricky. But as with every game that has these classes, the playerbase has no interest in thinking, and countering, and putting in the mental effort to fight them. So they whine and cry until the Devs inevitably respond by bringing the nerf hammer down. And this will continue to happen as long as the nerf criers realize they can continually get their way by complaining, instead of learning and adapting.

My suggestion with the current trend of nerfing Mesmer and Thief is that they may as well just delete all of our Mesmer and Thief characters' avatars and replace them with a loot bag, since that seems to be the end goal for anti-thieves and anti-mesmers. And ArenaNet will undoubtedly appease them.

It's a shame to see my two favorite classes get continually hammered with the nerf bat. But It's also not surprising, since that's what I've seen in pretty much every game that has these two class types. If you enjoy trickery and deceit, if you enjoy playing mind games with your opponent, well too bad for you. That's the mentality of the modern MMO gamer these days.

This is true for ESO. the trickiest class in the game, (Magicka Nightblades) were nerfed to the ground because everyone hated fighting it and it's now the worst class in the game for pvp.

And until now lots of people in the forums still want it nerfed. Similar to this thread.

[mortrialus.3062]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:Go to mesmer forum, open Jazz post, look at how he manage condi mirage with only 3 condiclear (one condi) on his power spec :

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29548/video-power-mirage-roaming-gameplay-tips#latest

(particulary obvious on his n-1 vid where he do 2v2.)Go to mAt stream, go to quater final, look at how other class manage condi mirage when facing misha :

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/602371124

So you look pretty fun whinning about mesmer but let's be real, if you die versus condi mes, you die versus every other class faster.So yeah lmao, l2p or keep dreaming.

I want all classes nerfed to the ground, especially those that are drunk on powercreep, including my own main, which IMO suffers from bad design and dumbed down mechanical requirement to use and promotes spammability.So... you just gave me few links, 1 of which is 6h stream and explained nothing yourself how to fight condi mesmer, noice. It really seems like you don't use your own class at all if you can't do that much.Don't link PvP stuff though, since the cheese level isn't as high as in WvW and overall playfield is quite different from each other.So in short, I can't ask for fixing a class that is designed poorly from the very start? Oh right, someone even wrote "lmao just learn to play with bugs" in different topic.Once again, I ask you Mesmer overlords for:How to counter Condi Mirage in WvW, you MUST include:Every other class/build available in the game.Every skill/trait/items that is required to counter it.Every move and counter move on video in X situation: open field(no structures in sight), with few objectives in sight, etc.Every important skill on video that need to be looked out for, from attacker perspective and from attacked ones too(in slowmotion to see clearly animation).Additional points: provide analysis to each encounter and summarise it what was done good/wrong; an opponent must be as "equally" skilled as you.Unacceptable answers that I always ignore since they don't provide any valuable information:L2P, Just dodge LoL, Just LoS LOL, Just cleanse LOL, linked videos that provide only 1 perspective from 1 person from fights that are 90% of time one-sided to say the least.Consider it as a challenge, trust me, a lot of new players will love you for doing it.

P.S. I'm watching from time to time Jazz and others to see or understand, but what I mostly see in these videos are 1 sided fights.

There is no power creep anymore. We are in a period of full on Power Decay. Damage, mobility, physical durability, active mitigation, sustain, skill versatility are LOWER now than they were even in Core GW2. Go watch any 2012-2015 PvP video and see pretty much everything capable pf doing 2X the damage numbers on the same build and stat combo than they are now, or unnerfed mobility skills allowing for significantly faster rotations, or being able to maintain lethal damage and survivability while being on Soldier's Amulet or Sentinel's. Or celestial stats being extremely over budgeted in terms of stats compared to other combos.

[scerevisiae.1972]

not sure this thread devolved into a spvp meta discussion but yeah, WVW...

i like mesmer a lot but it is far from my main class. i really don't see any build that is close to balanced with where all the other classes are at after the 1-dodge nerf, and TBH I thought power mirage was already in need of group/AOE dmg buffs when it had 2 dodges.

So why the extra nerf? 1-shot mesmer is still a thing (and it's not hard, even i can manage it and i am average on mesmer) so 1-dodge nerf surely wasn't about removing that.

[DraconusShade.4590]

@"Ansau.7326" said:As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

• Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.
• Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.
• Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

It’s the same thing they did with Necromancer since the beginning. They always add a gimmicky skill in a class and then proclaim that the gimmick is so OP that the class needs to be gutted to make it normal. For some weird reason it always ends up being the core mechanic of the class. For Mirage it is cloak for Necro it is shroud.They seem to have this fantasy for every class, Necro should only survive and deal no damage, Mesmer should only duel and not be able to do anything at all in WvW. They seem to think that they are the only ones who play the game and tailor it around their likes and dislikes while ignoring the community. Don’t Mesmers in lore use their staff to control hoards of enemies? For strange reasons Anet believes that granting every class viability in all game modes is not right- we merely ask for viability. Everyone knows that certain classes are mechanically strong in certain game modes, but all classes should be viable in every game mode at least.Every class fantasy fits every game mode, so that shouldn’t really be a limiting factor.

Anet should make up their mind, do they want to be lazy and trash the game with “balance” changes that seem like all of 5 seconds of thought was put into them or just sell the IP and game to a studio with enough money to hire developers who actually care about the game.

I for one love the world they have created, the passion with which they create every piece of concept art and lore. Unfortunately, this passion is never seen in execution in-game, it always manages to fall flat and balance seems to be something that they struggle with immensely. I don’t want to see this game go down the drain because they have an incompetent balance team.

[DraconusShade.4590]

It’s almost as if Anet is giving the player base a select roster of classes to choose from in each game mode because they gave up on balancing the game. Every game mode seems to have a classes that are decimated and dead. The balance team seems bent on ruining this beautiful world for many players, no matter how many times I take a break or for how long, on my return I always find some class that is gutted in some game mode. The time has come for them to really justify why any of us should continue to spend money on this.

[Jables.4659]

@scerevisiae.1972 said:

Power mirage was not a thing in WVW even before the dodge nerf. The dmg was comparable to other similarly-geared powered classes vs single targets, but quite a lot

Power Mirage was absolutely a thing in WvW before the february 25th patch. It wasn't viable in large scale fights, but it was a really solid solo roamer and small group fighter.

[Senqu.8054]

@DraconusShade.4590 said:It’s almost as if Anet is giving the player base a select roster of classes to choose from in each game mode because they gave up on balancing the game. Every game mode seems to have a classes that are decimated and dead. The balance team seems bent on ruining this beautiful world for many players, no matter how many times I take a break or for how long, on my return I always find some class that is gutted in some game mode. The time has come for them to really justify why any of us should continue to spend money on this.

Several dead traits, unusable since month. It speaks for itself.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Jables.4659 said:

@scerevisiae.1972 said:

Power mirage was not a thing in WVW even before the dodge nerf. The dmg was comparable to other similarly-geared powered classes vs single targets, but quite a lot

Power Mirage was absolutely a thing in WvW before the february 25th patch. It wasn't viable in large scale fights, but it was a really solid solo roamer and small group fighter.

it was good at abusing bad players, same as any glass cannon build

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@mikdepadua.8376 said:

@Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:It's a common theme in literally every game with some kind of rogue or illusion type class. Illusion and Rogue classes are tricky, play dirty, and require the opponent to actually think. Where other classes are more straight forward, Rogues and Illusion Mages are much more subtle, deceitful and tricky. But as with every game that has these classes, the playerbase has no interest in thinking, and countering, and putting in the mental effort to fight them. So they whine and cry until the Devs inevitably respond by bringing the nerf hammer down. And this will continue to happen as long as the nerf criers realize they can continually get their way by complaining, instead of learning and adapting.

My suggestion with the current trend of nerfing Mesmer and Thief is that they may as well just delete all of our Mesmer and Thief characters' avatars and replace them with a loot bag, since that seems to be the end goal for anti-thieves and anti-mesmers. And ArenaNet will undoubtedly appease them.

It's a shame to see my two favorite classes get continually hammered with the nerf bat. But It's also not surprising, since that's what I've seen in pretty much every game that has these two class types. If you enjoy trickery and deceit, if you enjoy playing mind games with your opponent, well too bad for you. That's the mentality of the modern MMO gamer these days.

This is true for ESO. the trickiest class in the game, (Magicka Nightblades) were nerfed to the ground because everyone hated fighting it and it's now the worst class in the game for pvp.

And until now lots of people in the forums still want it nerfed. Similar to this thread.

Same thing in Destiny 2 with the Hunter class. The only reason that DOESN'T get nerfed into the ground is 1) Only one-third of the Void line gives reliable stealth and 2) the vast majority of players play hunter just because it's the only class the jumps are easy to use on (also I think the only one with dodge, but it's not like a GW2 dodge, just good to dive into cover).

And I think the devs there at least know balance will never happen with cross play between console and mouse & keyboard players.

As for Mesmer here, I have pretty much shelved mine. I dig it out for the new LS chapters and then put it back. Eventually I will likely move the Armor over to my Ele and just continue the play with that one and give the Mesmer some basic karma Temple armor.

[scerevisiae.1972]

@Jables.4659 said:

@scerevisiae.1972 said:

Power mirage was not a thing in WVW even before the dodge nerf. The dmg was comparable to other similarly-geared powered classes vs single targets, but quite a lot

Power Mirage was absolutely a thing in WvW before the february 25th patch. It wasn't viable in large scale fights, but it was a really solid solo roamer and small group fighter.

i meant power mirage in zergs was underpowered relative to other classes, and that was with 2 dodges. Even as solo roamer it was not super common and i never once thought it was OP, as a player playing mirage or as an opponent fighting one. deadeye, holosmith, longbow ranger way more obnoxious IMO.

So yeah, i still can't understand the 1 dodge nerf for WVW, but TBH balancing has always been the worst/weakest part of Anet/GW2. Their decisions always seem so out of touch with the game.

[atlashugged.7642]

1 dodge in pvp is pretty painful too.

I usually defend anet, but recently, it's just not fun playing mesmer anymore. It feels extremely challenging for very little reward. Every mechanic but clones is something thief does better.

Thief has more access to interrupts than mesmer, with both Distracting Daggers and Headshot offering almost instant interrupts on none, or extremely low cooldowns (compare distracting daggers to Mantra of Distraction for instance, and it seems better in almost every way).

Thief has more access to stealth than mesmer, both group and individual.

Daredevil now has three times as much access to dodging as Mirage, when both are ostensibly dodge specialized classes. The Mirage Dodge offers unique gameplay, but so do Daredevil GM traits.

Portal, once a unique, and amazing feature mesmers could bring to the table is now emulated by thieves with shadow portal.

About the only thing that I can think of going for Mesmer in the thief comparison is turning people into chickens (but the cooldown on that is three minutes, and for that reason I can't think of it as a class defining feature. It will be something you do once every three minutes, or once every roughly 90 seconds if you're a Chrono, so a small percentage of your overall competitive experience).

Clones are something Mesmers can do that Thieves cannot, but they seem to be in a bad place. They get destroyed almost too rapidly to be a core part of the gameplay. Phantasms used to be a more durable form of clones (which caused its own problems), but now they're just effectively direct damage spells that summon a clone at the end.

I'm optimistic that Anet can fix these issues still. They've shown the ability to correct mistakes (such as the recent chrono changes giving them back self shatters). And we have an expansion coming up. But until they are fixed, I will probably find myself playing more and more of the thief, and less and less of my favorite class. Because it just isn't fun anymore. It's just annoying.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Sigil of energy, food +40% endurance regen, runes of firework or Adventurer. + all the mirage cloaks.If you complain about how condibunker mirage, even power ones, is terrible to play in wvw, try pvp.Trailblazer/dire/etc mirages are still cancer in wvw, but yes, you need gimmicks, everything in WvW is about gimmicks ; infuz, food, runes with +25% BD or CD, etc. If you can't have a dodge every ~6 seconds average, you're doing it bad.