Upcoming Balance Notes

[Yasai.3549]

@"Makuragee.3058" said:

As an engi main I would not say they love us, they just forgot we exist and some time to time they throw a random thing in our stuff just to say hi! This patch hurt more than it buff trust me, nobody is playing with pistol or flamethrower XD

I don't get it either with Anet.

They seem to always love to do the thing where :

• They buff the numbers, calls it "giving it love", but the thing they buffed is the most absolute doggy-doo-doo and clunky thing ever which will never be useful unless reworked.
• They nerf things, which is bound to happen and seems fair, but they will nerf EVERYTHING RELATING TO THE PROBLEM EXCEPT THE PROBLEM ITSELF. Then when the Problem finally gets nerfed? No reverts to the other things which previously piggy backed on the Problem, making the Profession or trait basically neutered and dead (Mesmer for example)
• And finally, they apply QoL, which is again a good thing, but they apply the QoL which no one had a major issue with while forgetting actual clunky things that require QoL (Yayyy Revs can now use their Upkeep while in midair, WHILE LEGENDS STILL CAN'T BE SWAPPED MIDAIR)

[MisterDapper.5984]

It’s ironic that FMW gets nerfed, but Chrono TW remains untouched. The solution to Guard getting FMW nerfed is to stack more Guards or for the qb to take Stalwart speed. So, I don’t see how this balancing makes any sense. Condi chrono nerf just makes Mirage more appealing. Condi slb also got a small nerfed, but hardly sees play. Why kill the class diversity is beyond me.

Chronophantasm is still bugged, C split doesn’t give distortion or any of the other shatters for some reason. Looks like torch 4 zealot’s fire on guard is still bugged. Condi fb dps got nerfed when it doesn’t even bring impressive numbers, but it’s still better than other classes due to utility.

It’s really like throwing darts at a board every time a balance patch for PvE comes out. Classes overall need aggressive buffs and less nerfs. Along with quality of life changes like fixing bugs and smoothing out rotations. Third axe auto chain on fb feels bad to execute.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Jski.6180 said:Looked good till i saw the necro update what dose this class get such a free ride?

It's worse than that, it make the necromancer slightly weaker where he needed help and stronger where he was already close to be broken. This make no sense at all, it's like adding fuel to the complaints.

[Tycura.1982]

Buff meaningful warrior skills for PvP. This won't cut it.

[Vegeta.2563]

@"Fire Attunement.9835" said:

Items

• Rune of the Mirage: This rune set no longer grants 3 seconds of superspeed when using leap finishers, but instead grants 5 seconds of superspeed when using an elite skill. This effect has a cooldown of 10 seconds.

It never did grant superspeed?

Did you mean Rune of the Zephyrite???

[phokus.8934]

The balance update prior to this? CMC was leading it.

This balance update? ANet took away the reins from CMC and look what we get.

[Custodio.6134]

Chronomancer Shatter Skills: Chronomancer shatter skills can now be activated without clones, and the shatter effect also occurs at the mesmer's location.

finally you re-enabled Chrono-Shatter-Skills in Zergfights. This has been one of the two biggest mistakes (imo) that were made to Mesmer in WvW ever. Well, the other main supportive Skills (esp. Signet of Inspiration) are still basically dead, but now we have at elast a chance to use our specialization-specific mechanic in Zergfights again...

Shade Skills: These have been changed back to triggering at both the necromancer's location and their shade locations with each use.

so what about the target cap? will this also get changed aligning with the revert? if not, then you basically doubled the amount of targets getting hit in a push, meaning almost double the shade-spike-damage in melee-combat compared to before the change. Assuming the local shade on the necro counts to a separate target cap other than the placed shade, now every player can be hit by both, local and placed shade, not only doubling the potential damage dealt, but also doubling the corrupts and the from this resulting condition-damage afterwards. This would be the beginning to revert the original intended changes to boon-spam vs corrupt-spam you originally wanted to break down (what has been a serious issue over a very long time and imo a good point to begin with)...

Also, this patch looks like ANet wants to revert their initial idea of splitting WvW-/PvP-/PvE-Balance, as this patch overlaps in many points over all 3 game-modes.This would be the WORST idea and bring back all the old problems that got started to be adressed and fixed in the past.

You CANNOT balance WvW the same way as PvP, and even less like PvE. Especially PvE and PvP are entirely different from WvW. Not just a bit, the difference is that huge, that you could call WvW a total different game, that is just using Races and Classes that are coincidentally also present in the rest of the game.

I think one serious issue when it comes to WvW-Balance is the core mindset on how ANet tries to achieve balance.WvW is a competetive PvP-Game-Mode, with 3 main playstyles that must be taken into account.--> Roaming (solo-/small groups)--> Smallscale (organized medium-sized groups and/or Guild groups)--> Zerging (big scale fights, that also holds most of the WvW-Players in terms of numbers)

Just due to the sheer numbers of players, Zerging is the largest playstyle in WvW. So serving the biggest playerbase in one mode should be the top priority in terms of balance. Due to the different types of play, you cannot balance those three out even, this is technically impossible. If you achieve balance in one area, it is almost guaranteed to break balance at another point; and this cannot be avoided. So rather than trying to even out everything (which is impossible) you should better try to balance out the biggest part of the game in terms of numbers. and this is zerging. Players will always find a way to abuse mechanics and balancing and at this point, everyone that doesnt do that will start crying about the strength of certain builds and how weak their own builds are.

I really suggest (honestly, i know it sounds rude, stupid and foolish) that everyone, that is involved in WvW balance, MUST be an active, regular player in WvW and/or be in close contact to various progressive WvW-Guilds. Nobody knows the state of the game better, than the progressive players, especially the progressive guilds. I have seen ArenaNet livestreams in WvW in the past and oh my god, those players had no clue what they were doing. And i really hope, those ones are not in a position to consider/discuss/decide any changes to WvW balance. The way how WvW changes, how balance is made, how bugs get fixed (or, not fixed for ages), how the game performance in wvw is and what often ridiculous balance-changes are made creates an image that says:"we have no idea what we are doing"

[Svarty.8019]

@"Orchee.4850" said:

Stop toying with random things and pretending you're balancing the game.

Please understand that although the team is called "Balance" for the purpose of player interpretation, their role is really just to make the game a bit different every now and then. They've said as much on the WvW livestream many, many times.

Think of them as "Meta Mixers", rather than developers who strive to "Balance" the classes - whatever that nebulous term might mean to you.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@"Orchee.4850" said:

Stop toying with random things and pretending you're balancing the game.

Please understand that although the team is called "Balance" for the purpose of player interpretation, their role is really just to make the game a bit different every now and then. They've said as much on the WvW livestream many, many times.

Think of them as "Meta Mixers", rather than developers who strive to "Balance" the classes - whatever that nebulous term might mean to you.

can't disagree, but buffing a class that is already a must have in WvW even more, creating a playstyle that no one wants, won't make thing's 'Fun' I get that different classes every now and then is a good thing but Scourge buffs are stupid and won't create a fun atmosphere.

[YamiNoNeko.8739]

I never thought I would be making a post on here but the condi nerf to weaver ins uncalled for, it is already hard to master and pull off correctly that nerfing it is basically spitting on all the condi weaver players when they have to work and with how hard it is to pull off the damage shouldn't be nerf is like you guys are just looking at the golem numbers and think you aren't dealing with a lot of mechanics on raids in order to execute it correctly.

Is great that power is getting a bit of a buff but is also hard to play and pull but but not to the extend of condi weaver of course and damage it currently does doesn't reflect how hard is to master and how squishy and glass cannon the class is that power weaver should do more damage for being so glass cannon.

[Lily.1935]

Last time the Shades were changed it was to remove crippling from the pulses. I believe arena net is experimenting to see if the issue with the shades are the Pulse around the player or if it was the crippling itself. I think the knee jerk reaction at the moment isn't quite warranted. IF it is a problem it'll be hot fixed in a week.

Of course I have my own suggestions for how to change scourge. But for now I think we should see what this will do. I honestly think it'll be a possessive change for PvP and PvE. Heal scourge was incentivized not to place their shade with sand savant because of the loss of the aoe around themselves and the same is true for PvP because the scourge is defenseless in comparison to Reaper and Core.

I think the dynamic of the lack of crippling is something we have to consider. The smaller shades are much easier to escape and cover such a small area that they might not be preferred over Sand Savant anyway but the massive AoE can't lock you in its pulsing aoe anymore with crazy amounts of Crippling stacking on you anymore.

I could be wrong on this, but don't think its doom and gloom just yet. Let it play out.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i'm going to do a copy paste of my suggested scourge shade changes from pvp forum. wvw/ pvp only change.

imo the most logical approach to shade balance is to separate the support and offense. no shades down, both offense and support is centered around the necro. shades down, support on necro and offense around shade. it would take away f3 fear for defense but maybe they can make an exception for that and have fear proc on both necro and shade.

[Orchee.4850]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@"Orchee.4850" said:

Stop toying with random things and pretending you're balancing the game.

Please understand that although the team is called "Balance" for the purpose of player interpretation, their role is really just to make the game a bit different every now and then. They've said as much on the WvW livestream many, many times.

Think of them as "Meta Mixers", rather than developers who strive to "Balance" the classes - whatever that nebulous term might mean to you.

Yes, this is more than fair. I just dislike their reasoning. Keep things WvW or PvP specific, and give better reasons for nerfs (40k benchmark for Weaver is x% higher than y, so we are reducing the complexity of the rotation and damage, or the ideal benchmark is 35k so we are moving it more inline with xyz class). That's all I'd really want.

I enjoy meta mixers, but they should be considering rotation complexity. I think that's the only thing that upsets me about not giving good reasons (and I can't even do a Weaver rotation perfectly).

[Hohenheim.8154]

I'm excited for the changes for the classes I have experience with. To be honest, I like the way ArenaNet is working around balances and I think they are going towards a wise direction: they are competing with themselves instead of comparing with other games, and they are trying to make all features viable in all Guild Wars 2 contents, giving more diversity for the players to chose from and interact with. As a player, I would like to thank them for that.

Also, I would like to add some things regarding of PvE content (since it's all that I play), hoping the Devs will read this.

For Guardian, I would like to see some changes to the Longbow and the Hammer:

• The Longbow is great, one of my favorite weapons, but I think is a little bit lacking on the DPS department both compared to other guardian weapons (like greatsword, sword, scepter and focus, making them the default go-to for more difficult content) and compared with the Ranger longbow (specifically the 2nd and 5th skills). Being an elite specialization signature weapon, I think there is room for a little damage improvement.

• Also, the 4th skill of the guardian Longbow feels clunky to me since it's prone to be used from distance (so, not consistently on yourself), and you can't benefit consistently your melee allies because you're giving them Vigor so they would dodge out of the symbol. Also, if you use it on yourself the same happens. My suggestion in this area is to trade the symbol of Protection from the Hammer for this one: then you could give protection to your melee allies in a reasonable manner and also apply it on yourself when you are being overwhelmed by enemies without needing to run away. This could make also the longbow more viable for close quarters and more close to the Dragonhunter theme of being able to hunt dragons without always being running away from them.

• As for the Hammer, I like it's so CC oriented since there is not much crowd control in core guardian nor in DH, and I think I kind of get the theme that Devs were going for: the defender/protective soldier archetype; but I think right now the theme is getting on the way of it's viability. When already in close combat, hammer does only have two effectively damaging skills (1st and 2nd), the other ones work better to keep your enemies at distance than to damage them at distance or in close quarters; and when you effectively CC them, then all you can do is spam Mighty blow (or Glacial blow) to profit on that. That is very useful to guard narrow paths like Vinewrath tangle on the Silverwastes, but not so much in open areas.

• The 1st skill of the hammer, the auto-attack, feels to me kind of slow and clunky. My guessing is that Devs had to make it slower so the players wouldn't spam the symbol of protection, so I think the symbol itself may be impeding an improvement in the auto-attack animation and mechanics.

• Glacial heart trait it's kind of a mixed bag for me. I like the chill because it let's you build a full-on CC guardian which can profit a lot on Heavy light trait, but it makes the hammer slower and less DPS effective (as opposed to faster and stronger, which is what usually happens when you invest in a weapon trait). Thar means a CC hammer build is more viable without Glacial heart than with it, even if it means losing the chill. And, given the lack of DPS of hammer, there is no way Glacial heart can compete with Inspiring virtue for this kind of build to work out.

• Respectfully, my suggestion here is on the long term: a complete rework of hammer skills, symbol mechanic and Glacial heart.

For Warrior, there is only one thing I would like to ad and it's about knockback and knockdown balance. Warrior has three knockbacks and all of them are kind of AoE (Kick affects three targets, Stomp affects five, and Staggering blow affects also five), and has also three knockdowns but only one of them is AoE (which is Tremor, the 5th skill of the mace). I would like to see added an AoE knockdown to Bull's charge or to Backbreaker (5th hammer skill) in order to profit from Merciless hammer and Unsuspecting foe traits more widely.

And, finally, in General, I would like to address a minor thing that has been bugging me: I have no way to tell if traits like Heavy light (Guardian, DH) and Unsuspecting foe (Warrior, Arms) are activated, so I don't know if the extra damage or the extra critical-hit chance is being applied. Is there a way to work around that? Maybe they could become time-gated bonus, as Inspiring virtue (Guardian, Virtues) or Peak performance (Warrior, Strenght); I think that would make them more attractive to players since you could benefit from them more broadly and build around them rather than benefit from then occasionally and not-knowingly.

Again, thanks for everything.

[Enduronex.4865]

@Jski.6180 said:Looked good till i saw the necro update what dose this class get such a free ride?

Shroud is already so obnoxious to fight, and they want to make lazy players who just AoE stuff even stronger? Yikes.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Looked good till i saw the necro update what dose this class get such a free ride?

It's worse than that, it make the necromancer slightly weaker where he needed help and stronger where he was already close to be broken. This make no sense at all, it's like adding fuel to the complaints.

I dont agree with this considering many others got the same treatment alls fair in this round imo.

Several other changes on other professions this round seem to be reverting or targeting things they were already good at and likely didnt need buffs to there is no reason not to hold one specific profession to be the exception imo.

[Kosmo.3468]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Noah Salazar.5430 said:

@Shiyo.3578This game needs LESS superspeed. It's already given out like candy for absolutely no reason, we absolutely do not need more in the game. Do NOT add this to the game.

lower cd on hammer

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rocket_Charge

and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jump_Shot

by 3-4s than or at last add personal super speed on Flame Blast

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flame_Blast

as compensation

No compensation needed, scrapper needs zero superspeed.

LOL, these guys are unbelievable. They just want to leave engineers out of the game. Only Thiefs can have everything in their kits, but when it's another class that instantly becomes "too OP" for this game.Get a grip.

[Asum.4960]

@Donari.5237 said:I see from comments that people who can drop multiple shades have been a problem in competitive modes, so I have a couple of spit-ball ideas.

Disable necro-location effects in competitive modes.OR disable necro-location effects when using the three-shades version of the skill, those three spots should be enough.OR disable necro-location effects when the necro is inside a shade's area of effect so it doesn't go to 10 targets as people are complaining about.

Just some possibilities, people who understand the mechanics and problems of the shades might easily poke holes in them.

The problem has always been the coverage of big shade though, not the 3 default shades.

Necro has never been problematic for what it can do to one target (see lacking presence in PvE endgame and low dps and being non existent as dueling spec), but the ease with which many Scourges can hit many targets each, see WvW.

I do think Scourges counting as Shades themselves as originally intended is the right thing to go back to as Small Shade is incredibly clunky without that, but imo they either need to split Target caps in WvW, and/or just finally redesign the Minor Traits and Sand Savant, making Scourge not rely on placing Shades to get it's minors, keep small Shade as is (possibly with a Target Cap of 2), and redesign big Shade as purely a support Trait, either placed or around the Scourge as currently, and replacing some or most of it's offensive capabilities with support (increased Barrier or Heal instead of direct damage, and some boon support instead of the Torment).

So Scourges can either be potent damage dealers in small but multiple locations, including in an easily avoided small area around themselves, or be a far reaching Support spec, either around itself or at a large designated location, but not both at the same time.

Having Scourge be an okay damage dealer and support in a large area somewhere and around itself is what compounds to be a big issue, especially when stacked.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Donari.5237 said:I'm approaching this as a PvE player who mouse-moves and thus has real problems dropping multiple shades (I use snap-to-target, which is great for one aoe, terrible for placing elsewhere). From that viewpoint, the return to necro-location shade effects is

wonderful

since I trait to use just one giant shade anyway and now I can move my body to somewhere else to get barrier or deal with small things harassing me while I work on the big target.

But I see from comments that people who can drop multiple shades have been a problem in competitive modes, so I have a couple of spit-ball ideas.

Disable necro-location effects in competitive modes.OR disable necro-location effects when using the three-shades version of the skill, those three spots should be enough.OR disable necro-location effects when the necro is inside a shade's area of effect so it doesn't go to 10 targets as people are complaining about.

Just some possibilities, people who understand the mechanics and problems of the shades might easily poke holes in them.

The main reason it was nerfed in the first place was due to the coverage, the secondary reason was the damage and conditions. ANet bring back the coverage and keep everything else, so players will complain. Bringing back the self shade isn't a bad thing in itself, however the area denial philosophy of the mechanic need to go if they want such a move to be accepted. Let's hope that amongst the unlisted change it is adressed.

Renegade spirits would like to have a word with you first. Thats far more obnoxious than scourge area denial at the moment.Area denial is not an issue its how easy it is to get locked in area denial.Scourges cripple was more effect than a reapers chill and took far less skill to apply.A shade pops up under your feet means crippled.any f skill = more cripplea wide range of other necro skills = more cripple

When cripple becomes stronger than chill in movement lockdown then thats an issue imo.As someone else pointed out now that the cripple is more or less gone the shades generally might not be an issue in the area denial department.Scourge still has limited defenses due to not having a shroud and having a utility kit that does not fully make up for not having a shroud. Overall i think this is needed otherwise you wont see people playing scourge. They already said that they didnt want to solve problems by smiting something into the region of being unplayable which it seems this patch is some what trying to undo particularly with scourge and chrono.

Truth is the idea of having shades that do no damage at all is impractical for competitive play no other professions even the supportive ones work this wayDruid still has cc and damage in its CA kitTempest still has damage in its overload kitRenegade still has cc and damage in its kitFirebrand still has cc and damage in its kit

All of the above which are considered support or offensive support specs.Why should scourge be the only off. support spec to not have damage in its f skill and utility kit?Better yet why should it be encouraged not to summon shades when it has minor traits based around having the shades up?

Overall undone this change was one of the better changes anet could have ever done. IF the damage needs to be reduced slightly thats a different story but to say there shouldnt be any makese no sense to say that area denial shouldnt be a thing in a mmo rpg when almost every other mmo rpg has classes that focus on those things also makes no sense.

I really cant understand what you want necro to be sometimes. These are just my thoughts you dont have to agree with them.

[Matt H.6142]

No look in on healbrand, quickbrand or alacrity renegades prevalence in LFG? Traited Orders from Above is so lazy, in comparison to what Chronomancer, the original alacrity class, has to rotate through to achieve the same thing. Literally a one button press for near-full 10 man alacrity uptime.I can understand the scourge and chronomancer backtrack. Their presence appeared to be non-exist in most game modes, but the original problems don't seem to be looked into.The mirage rune note is actually for the Zephyrite rune. Soothing Detonation does not have a fire field requirement today.

[Milosz.5938]

I'm watching at this changes from perspective of elementalist (my main). And what I can say "Hmm"... This "transfer" in fire looks nice and I'm very curious how it will work. Reducing of Healing rain looks nice... Thank you for that.

Now... painful part ^&^' Looking at Necro I almost lost my consciousness... It sounds like you guys never played against Necro... and making them now as GODs of killing and at the same time su...ing all health from around enemies. All wells recharge reduction and power up - pfffff. and once more PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFI wanted put more "Pff"Thank you for informing us about those changes.

[ZDragon.3046]

@"Milosz.5938" said:I'm watching at this changes from perspective of elementalist (my main). And what I can say "Hmm"... This "transfer" in fire looks nice and I'm very curious how it will work. Reducing of Healing rain looks nice... Thank you for that.

Now... painful part ^&^' Looking at Necro I almost lost my consciousness... It sounds like you guys never played against Necro... and making them now as GODs of killing and at the same time su...ing all health from around enemies. All wells recharge reduction and power up - pfffff. and once more PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFI wanted put more "Pff"Thank you for informing us about those changes.

Keep in mind Wells lost several thingsWells no longer have a trait to boost themWells no longer give protection to the necro or alliesWells no longer succ life from enemy players to heal the necro

Wells got lower base cdA Well of darkness lost its unblockable feature for damage and chill applicationTechnically speaking well of suffering and well of blood are taking a minor nerf here if you consider them currently when using the vamp ritual traitBoth their cooldowns go to 24s and the new cooldown will be 25 once again they also are losing the protection and life succ mechanics.Well of darkness is an out right buff i wont argue this but no one uses it currently which should be a good thing. When invalid skills are made optionally viable thats not a bad thing just keep an eye on it though to make sure its not too much.Well of corruption is basically going to be unchanged no damage buffs the cd with the trait currently vs after the patch will be the same 32s and it lost the fuctionality of being able to life succ and give protection when triated.

Considering almost every necro is currently running blood magic many of these wells are going to actually taking considerable nerfs mechanically for a better base cd. that is more or less the same as the current trait boosted wells which will do more from a mechanical standpoint with more or less the same cooldown.

Vamp signet after the patch passively leaches from 1 player only traited 2 players and only when shroud is active will the 2 player part work.I would say they greatly reduced the life succ going into the next patch.

Then again if you are an ele main i can see how this looks nightmare ish to you. Necro has always hard countered ele and these changes wont make that any less of a counter matchup.

[crazyhusky.2985]

Its nice to see a chrono go back to normal.

Now if you can only revamp Dragonhunter a little, it gets no love.

[Raizel Silverius.6430]

@"Svarty.8019" said:Please understand that although the team is called "Balance" for the purpose of player interpretation, their role is really just to make the game a bit different every now and then. They've said as much on the WvW livestream many, many times.

Think of them as "Meta Mixers", rather than developers who strive to "Balance" the classes - whatever that nebulous term might mean to you.

Now I lost all hope on having balance in this game. Also explains a lot of the band-aid fixes. They should rename it to Meta Fixer Patch to be honest.

[Svarty.8019]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

@"Orchee.4850" said:

Stop toying with random things and pretending you're balancing the game.

Please understand that although the team is called "Balance" for the purpose of player interpretation, their role is really just to make the game a bit different every now and then. They've said as much on the WvW livestream many, many times.

Think of them as "Meta Mixers", rather than developers who strive to "Balance" the classes - whatever that nebulous term might mean to you.

can't disagree, but buffing a class that is already a must have in WvW even more, creating a playstyle that no one wants, won't make thing's 'Fun' I get that different classes every now and then is a good thing but Scourge buffs are stupid and won't create a fun atmosphere.

Who said anything about 'Fun'?