No Downstate Week

[Svarty.8019]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:Ah yes, week of sudden increase in burst rangers, permastealth deadeyes and whatever 1shot build you can use from safe distance or stealth!

That's what I'm doing! :) PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW!

[Strider Pj.2193]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:The thoughts about the fractal instabilities is interesting......

I demand Mossman + Random Tentacles Week.

I feel most player wouldn't like change. So maybe we need to spin this up in EoTM without risking players going AWOL, but again, could be fun.

Social awkwardness on the bridges in EoTM with Zergs.... heh...

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Apokriphos.7042 said:

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Mmmm. Instability week, all damage sources are increased by 33%. Would be so much fun :sunglasses:

The thoughts about the fractal instabilities is interesting......

I am thinking of the social awkwardness instability. Now of all that would be hilarious. Group of 50 “stack....then we push. I didn’t say push first!!!” Bumper car treatment where folks just bump people off the walls or worse ones a red bl off a cliff.

Social Awkwardness should have alwaya been a thing, in both PvE and PvP modes. It makes no sense to be able to walk 'into' your allies or opponents simply for mechanical benefits. Body blocking with appropriate counters would also increase combat complexity and better mimic actual warfare strategies then the current wvw or pve boss incarnation of stack to win.

Coming from another WvW game that had it, agree. It made combat more challenging and gave ways to hold a line. Now as others have said here in the past the other side of the coin is how would it impact latency in this game engine. To that I would counter, does the lack of people being able to stack also not have a positive impact on latency if that boon/condi didn't have to go thru a check where 50 people are standing versus where 1 should. Granted this is remembering tank walls even when you are a dumb dumb dps overextending to find your self cut off by your own tank wall, but you learn.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:The thoughts about the fractal instabilities is interesting......

I demand Mossman + Random Tentacles Week.

I feel most player wouldn't like change. So maybe we need to spin this up in EoTM without risking players going AWOL, but again, could be fun.

Social awkwardness on the bridges in EoTM with Zergs.... heh...

Glorious

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Hug your pocket healers tighter, and all will be good.

But hey, no rallybots to blame. Wonder what people will blame next?

You make it sound like rallybots are the only issue plaguing WvW. So cute.

How do you even manage to read it like that? I was just making a quip at people blaming other players for being rallybots for losing. I mean, also lag too, but that's never going away.

[saerni.2584]

No Down State is really fun:

• People can’t rely on rallying off NPCs in camps. The camp isn’t a potential disadvantage for a defender, which it should never be given how high damage still is and how low HP the veterans are.
• People can’t be revived in group fights so you don’t have the same Bomb on Down mentality in larger groups, which turns downs into focal points for AoE pressure that could be focused on the people who are still alive. Group fights feel more natural and decisive.
• People aren’t carried by sitting in a large group and taking a full barrage without worry. You can be killed immediately, which reduces disparity between small and large groups. You still have the advantage of numbers but downed state won’t add to your advantage (a downed pushed by the much larger force just dies anyway so the change just makes outnumbering people less safe). This is a positive development when number disparities are the biggest issue for retaining people in WvW.

I think this adds net positive to WvW activity. People will log on and stay on if they have a better shot at fighting larger groups. They also will have a chance at better rewards this week so people have no better chance to play to get GoB or other items they need to farm WvW for. This should be a quarterly event.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Eh, been sorta fun. It's very punishing to be a straggler, so good practice.

I actually notice people being more aggressive now; probably because they can secure kills more easily, which isn't a bad thing either. It's been more pug/non-comp player friendly tbh, since they probably didn't get res'd much to begin with. I mean it's never fun to take down a player only to get mass res'd anyways.

[God.2708]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

But again personally I think the damage nerf was because glass cannon was killing glass cannon too fast and people thought that was bad for some reason.

I can't speak for their reasoning, but IMO the issue with damage prior to the patch was that glass cannon was killing EVERYONE to fast. A power LB ranger for example could simply one shot 95% of the player base, often through protection, if they didn't get reflects up. Gear be damned. That simply isn't healthy. And I pick on the LB ranger because it's memes, but it extends to most glass cannon classes. It made large scale fights very make or break and over emphasized first hits because when you need 5 scourges to kill 25 players tanky or not, fights tend to look and feel all the same. Now those 5 scourges will kill 5-8 players, and generally it will be other glass players because toughness and vit has actual value. Spiking tankier targets requires more damage (which is the argument people usually level towards why people blob up) but the flip side of that coin is that people actually have motivation to play front line and try to brawl (given similar numbers).

That sort of dynamic is a healthier game state because now (in theory) you can have ranged compositions with pocket healers and pure glass and others that over emphasize tankiness and try to kill the glass damage dealers that are vulnerable by surviving through the first hit. IMO this is actually true, and the 'meta' could be a lot more diverse than it actually is. But, people are stuck in a rut because there's not much motivation to do anything more than what you've always done since winning is irrelevant.

Damage could be boosted a bit more, but the game was really starting to show how much creep had occurred in the damage sector whilst the only 'creep' in defensiveness so to speak was healing which doesn't help with things that potentially instantly kill you.

[Naxos.2503]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Eh, been sorta fun. It's very punishing to be a straggler, so good practice.

I actually notice people being more aggressive now; probably because they can secure kills more easily, which isn't a bad thing either. It's been more pug/non-comp player friendly tbh, since they probably didn't get res'd much to begin with. I mean it's never fun to take down a player only to get mass res'd anyways.

Opposite for me, people are going heavy defensive with a ton of arrow carts, and luring groups to their walls to let Condis do the job. Dragonhunters aplenty with tons of traps everywhere too. It's... heh.

I'm not gonna regear for that, but it does put most of my glass cannon builds out of commissions, which is a shame.

[saerni.2584]

@Naxos.2503 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Eh, been sorta fun. It's very punishing to be a straggler, so good practice.

I actually notice people being more aggressive now; probably because they can secure kills more easily, which isn't a bad thing either. It's been more pug/non-comp player friendly tbh, since they probably didn't get res'd much to begin with. I mean it's never fun to take down a player only to get mass res'd anyways.

Opposite for me, people are going heavy defensive with a ton of arrow carts, and luring groups to their walls to let Condis do the job. Dragonhunters aplenty with tons of traps everywhere too. It's... heh.

I'm not gonna regear for that, but it does put most of my glass cannon builds out of commissions, which is a shame.

I’ve seen a mix. Glass cannons roaming. Some small groups running sustain. It’s a nice mix and I’ve enjoyed the variety so far.

I did get ballista’d by a group twice our size...but that was because they literally are terrible at fighting even fights.

:-p

[arielqueen.6587]

This is boring. When someone snipe commander down, fight is over. That's it. Where's the fun of this. Everyone comes with oneshot build, less fight, less fun.

[saerni.2584]

@arielqueen.6587 said:This is boring. When someone snipe commander down, fight is over. That's it. Where's the fun of this. Everyone comes with oneshot build, less fight, less fun.

A good commander brings backup in case they go down.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

as a firebrand, i had a pretty chill overall reset; but the people in opentags die quicker now obviously.

it may be better if after death = autoport back to spawn i think, but i personally enjoy the more fast-paced game still, feels a bit more like before the dps-nerfs;

then again, stuff like ranger and thief dmg needs some hurting nerf, they're a bit cancer... i mean u currently cannot even stand to long in that cheapshot chars as full minstrel FB, especially in keep, where bear ranger 1, 2, 3, 4 and the 15 arrowcarts plus some scrubby thiefs throw their sh*t in your face; it's a bit like the "kill the medic" game in real wars :P

[Klypto.1703]

Okay so who is CEO of anet this week lol. Maintenance mode errr I mean the icebrood saga and pictures of cantha this is woowoo!!!!

[Heibi.4251]

@Dagger.2035 said:Tier 4 NA may be a mess due to a certain server tanking...

We've made plans for that. They won't be happy

[whoknocks.4935]

@Fueki.4753 said:Arenanet, can we have a No Stomping weekend next?And an Automatic Revival weekend after that?

You shouldn't support only one side of the argument.

Excuse me, are we playing a warzone mass pvp gamemode or are we playing the happy doctor simulator?

If you get downed you deserve to die and be sent back to spawn, case closed.

I don't know why people play a pvp gamemode and expect to be ressed how many times?

So you never wanna die in pvp.

To me it seems people are becoming so fragile and pathetic

No downed state is healthy for wvw and should be a permanent addition.

[primatos.5413]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:Ah yes, week of sudden increase in burst rangers, permastealth deadeyes and whatever 1shot build you can use from safe distance or stealth!

That doesn't mean the event is bad but balance still is i think :)

[Dawdler.8521]

@whoknocks.4935 said:No downed state is healthy for wvw and should be a permanent addition.Healthy how? Where is the health gain?

As I've mentioned before, its new and exciting now, midweek its gonna get annoying and end of the week most will realize how kitten boring it makes fights because they all end in an instant and its impossible to punish ressers/stompers. I already saw the tendancies in zerging yesterday - the overwhelming forces just roflstomps without any delay to actually finish the job.

Welcome to one push land.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:No downed state is healthy for wvw and should be a permanent addition.Healthy how? Where is the health gain?

As I've mentioned before, its new and exciting now, midweek its gonna get annoying and end of the week most will realize how kitten boring it makes fights because they all end in an instant and its impossible to punish ressers/stompers. I already saw the tendancies in zerging yesterday - the overwhelming forces just roflstomps without any delay to actually finish the job.

Welcome to one push land.

This.

The event plays out exactly as I had predicted in the last thread:

1. at equal skill level, the bigger group wins
2. given point 1, the weaker or smaller group of equal skill tries to turn tides in their favor by mass siege and turtle
3. organized groups, even of smaller number are destroying publics (I was in a 2 guild combined group of 25-30 players having a grand time wiping the other sides blob, might not have been full zone but rather 45-50)
4. bigger groups that get outplayed by smaller organized groups try to turn tides in their favor by mass siege and turtle
5. players who die on first engage eventually log off even faster
6. mass snipers and high damage poke from the sides and behind trying to capitalize on slow or lacking supports

In short, a great event for organized and/or experienced players, and the occasional roamer/sniper, casual players will soon get bored or tilted and leave the mode for the week.

I personally love the fact this event comes around occasionally. Shuts up all the people on the forums who think this would be a great idea for the game mode without extensive re-balance and redesign. Also great practice for players to realize who actually gets carried by the downstate mechanic. Hint: if you are walking a lot this week after first engage, you need to practice your movement. Overall consensus yesterday was, even with having fun wiping the other side: this is good as an event, no more, no less.

By the end of the week, people will look forward to this ending, again, just like last time.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

By the end of the week, people will look forward to this ending, again, just like last time.

What like last time? See you enhance people's thoughts that this should be permanent. Place holder, no so far this has shown that DS is more of a crutch for zerglings and we need more balance for zerg play. So far this has shown numbers are the factor in a fight. When you win 3v1 fights this type of week outside of others says there are issues with numbers being the defining feature.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:No downed state is healthy for wvw and should be a permanent addition.Healthy how? Where is the health gain?

I am not on the side of complete remove. But game play tonight showed again downstate just adds numbers to the equation of winning.

[Bast.7253]

I was looking forward to this event returning but I'm up against Maguma and NSP, and they've apparently decided they're just going to tag team my server all match so it's pointless even logging in.

[Cyninja.2954]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

By the end of the week, people will look forward to this ending, again, just like last time.

What like last time? See you enhance people's thoughts that this should be permanent. Place holder, no so far this has shown that DS is more of a crutch for zerglings and we need more balance for zerg play.

I think you have a very different notion of how many players are casual and how many are hardcore in this game mode than me. I think a vast majority of players are more casual versus the very dedicated. When those players leave towards the end of the week or all everybody does is siege and wait behind T3 walls, enjoy your empty border or siege fights.

@TheGrimm.5624 said:So far this has shown numbers are the factor in a fight. When you win 3v1 fights this type of week outside of others says there are issues with numbers being the dividing feature.

First of, when you win 3v1 in this type of week, you probably got your burst off faster or were fighting way weaker players.

Second, no player with any type of brain or understanding in this game would argue that numbers are not the deciding factor. They always have been, but this clearly shows that downstate favors the weaker players, even if in higher numbers.

It's a crutch for weaker players to be able to participate in this content. I have never stated otherwise. I clearly explained that I had a great time yesterday with the organized group I ran in. This is not about my enjoyment though, this is about what is healthy for the game mode and how many of each player one wants to attract.

[Too Frisky.9165]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@whoknocks.4935 said:No downed state is healthy for wvw and should be a permanent addition.Healthy how? Where is the health gain?

As I've mentioned before, its new and exciting now, midweek its gonna get annoying and end of the week most will realize how kitten boring it makes fights because they all end in an instant and its impossible to punish ressers/stompers. I already saw the tendancies in zerging yesterday - the overwhelming forces just roflstomps without any delay to actually finish the job.

Welcome to one push land.

Fights are going to be boring and end in an instant, huh? Exactly how is that ANY different than the current boon, well drop, and pull meta that currently exists? Zergs that overextend can be properly punished now because there is real advantage in how your group positions relative to theirs. Good commanders can actually engage and disengage larger forces and win if they play it properly. The removal of the down state is certainly different and feels awkward at first, but that's simply because it is such a drastic change to what we've had for nearly 8 years now.

The bottom line is that this a solid change to the way WvW works and if at the end of the day you don't like it, then just come back in a week when it disappears. Personally, I hope it becomes a permanent change because combat finally feels weighty and decisive and being downed inside the enemy zerg is no longer a literal advantage for your zerg.

[Doug.4930]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

As I've mentioned before, its new and exciting now, midweek its gonna get annoying and end of the week most will realize how kitten boring it makes fights because they all end in an instant and its impossible to punish ressers/stompers. I already saw the tendancies in zerging yesterday - the overwhelming forces just roflstomps without any delay to actually finish the job.

I would prefer to die quickly with a chance of actually winning outnumbered fights rather than last longer before my inevitable death because downstate affords the larger larger group to have an even greater advantage. Without downstate the larger force has one less crutch to win them fights.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

By the end of the week, people will look forward to this ending, again, just like last time.

@Dawdler.8521 @Cyninja.2954

This is my first no downstate week because I'd quit during the last ones. But let me tell you this is the most fun I have ever had in my time playing gw2 from 2012. The amount of outnumbered fights that my friends and I have been able to win because of the lack of crutch state is incredible.

The thought of downstate coming back in its current state if anything makes me want to take another break.