Necro Lichform has got to go!

[KrHome.1920]

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:lich auto was skipped by the megapatch. why should it be allowed to remain if anets intent is to lower damage across the board?A lot of skills for all classes have been "skipped".

And they explained the intention in an announcement. The patch had never the intention to simply lower the damage of each single skill by 30%.

To all the players still bringing up that "skipped" or "forgotten" argument: Maybe you should start reading what was said already more than a year ago.

[Lonecap.4105]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:lich auto was skipped by the megapatch. why should it be allowed to remain if anets intent is to lower damage across the board?A lot of skills for all classes have been "skipped".

And they explained the intention in an announcement. The patch had never the intention to simply lower the damage of each single skill by 30%.

To all the players still bringing up that "skipped" or "forgotten" argument: Maybe you should start reading what was said already more than a year ago.

Yeah but he also said big hitting skills have a threshold of 2.0 - we are talking about an auto attack that is 2.36 here. It was obviously forgotten about.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:lich auto was skipped by the megapatch. why should it be allowed to remain if anets intent is to lower damage across the board?A lot of skills for all classes have been "skipped".

And they explained the intention in an announcement. The patch had never the intention to simply lower the damage of each single skill by 30%.

To all the players still bringing up that "skipped" or "forgotten" argument: Maybe you should start reading what was said already more than a year ago.

which announcement? if true, why skip such an impactful skill? it doesn't make any sense from their own perspective. also why nerf rampage and not lich?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Lich should have its auto damage reduced. No amount of poor balancing/losing matchups justifies defending being able to (1) your opponent to death with 10k-ish autos. We've been here multiple times with different classes and people still seem to have hangups with this balancing principle.

At the same time, Lich should then have its cooldown largely reduced/damage perhaps spread to other skills, and something needs to be done about every other necro elite skill. Golem should launch in a line to make it more QoL instead of knockdowning and only launching at the end. Perhaps plaguelands should be AOE selectable. We can probably reduce the CD of CttB to 60.

Yes, lich is powerful but in most cases it's because the other elites are so situational/finicky to use unless you lean into a line that they warrant no second thoughts.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Jayce.5632 said:Since the Feb 2020 patch, I've only ever seen Shrouded Lich Form really gape people in spvp, and even then, it required max damage modifiers, zerker and I believe thief runes. But you'd have a better chance at running into Batman than SLF. Still super easy to counter, just watch for it as soon as any teammate goes down in a team fight or make sure you down the nec first if you believe they are running Lich.

what are you on? core condi, fucking CONDI necro can hit people for 3-4k lich autos.Reapers RELIABLY hit for ~7k my merged soulbeast ( medium armor, +75 toughness from beastmastery, +~78 is it? from divinity )With ANY outside forces might/vuln, it CAN and WILL crit light armored targets for fucking 10k dmg.The MAIN problem with the skill is its weapon strength, for some stupid reason its PvE damage its LOWER then its PvP damage, swap those around and things are gonna get better, maybe even reaper will get more dps in raids/fractal on bosses, as that would be ~19% dmg buff to its auto in PvE.While in PvP that would mean ~ 21,7% dmg nerf reasonable btw, it would still hit for 5k-6k on most enemies and occasionally hit for 7k-8k.BTW lich has 100% crit chance on power necro builds lulW, and you counter lich not by LoS or proj blocking but running into reaper like a madman and CC chaining and just killing his ass before he can even cast it.

[Gamble.4580]

Just let lich keep first and 5th the nurf can be getting rid of the rest :+1:

[aymnad.9023]

Are there counters? Well in theory yes. But in practice a necro has enough damage / sustain to force the defensive cds before destroying you (or even win without it) and even if you are lucky enough to have a few blocks available they will not last long enough which is why it is really frustrating to fight. I do not think it has to go but it needs some changes.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lich auto was skipped by the megapatch. why should it be allowed to remain if anets intent is to lower damage across the board?

Lich form was adjusted in the march follow up patch, its PvP duration was halved. So it is not untouched, you get 50% less damage output from that skill on the long run.I love high impact skills that totally alter the flow of the combat, and I think its okay for skills to be ridiculously powerful as long as they are situational and have common counters. Which Lich form does have - quite a lot - I actually like that my reflects do so much damage to the necro.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lich auto was skipped by the megapatch. why should it be allowed to remain if anets intent is to lower damage across the board?

Lich form was adjusted in the march follow up patch, its PvP duration was halved. So it is not untouched, you get 50% less damage output from that skill on the long run.I love high impact skills that totally alter the flow of the combat, and I think its okay for skills to be ridiculously powerful as long as they are situational and have common counters. Which Lich form does have - quite a lot - I actually like that my reflects do so much damage to the necro.

reaper has that shout that gives unblockable. not common, but a way to get around reflects.

[lovemghool.7613]

use cc chain, corruption, weakness, slow, blind, block, projectile hate, stealth, invulnerable, teleport, evade, LoS, range.or just out damage the Lich.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Unfortunately lichform would need a plague to plagueland type of rework. That would require the systems team, not just the pvp balancer to do, but the systems team is probably focusing on the new especs right now. The only other solution is to smitersboon the skill, and I do not think anyone wants to do that.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:lich auto was skipped by the megapatch. why should it be allowed to remain if anets intent is to lower damage across the board?

Lich form was adjusted in the march follow up patch, its PvP duration was halved. So it is not untouched, you get 50% less damage output from that skill on the long run.I love high impact skills that totally alter the flow of the combat, and I think its okay for skills to be ridiculously powerful as long as they are situational and have common counters. Which Lich form does have - quite a lot - I actually like that my reflects do so much damage to the necro.

reaper has that shout that gives unblockable. not common, but a way to get around reflects.

Yes it's technically possible to get quickness+unblockable+Lichform. However I am yet to see anyone pulling it off without getting focused down in an actual plat ranked match. In fact I am yet to see a reaper get a kill through reflects/blocks with this shout at all. It just doesn't happen.Unused skills/combos could hardly be reasons to nerf anythingy so I don't understand why you'd bring this up.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Bazsi.2734 said:Yes it's technically possible to get quickness+unblockable+Lichform. However I am yet to see anyone pulling it off without getting focused down in an actual plat ranked match. In fact I am yet to see a reaper get a kill through reflects/blocks with this shout at all. It just doesn't happen.Unused skills/combos could hardly be reasons to nerf anythingy so I don't understand why you'd bring this up.

i didn't say lich should be nerfed cuz shout lol. i brought it up cuz it was relevant. at teh end of the day 2.34 coefficient on lich is ridiculous, i'm done arguing with walls.

[Shao.7236]

Regardless, they could make Lich Form more interactive by decreasing the cooldown around 120 and spreading the damage across the skills. I know Rampage isn't as good as it used to be but it can be a fair deal useful and it's reduced cooldown does contributes to many uses.

I wouldn't mind being auto'd for 4k-5k but 7k-9k at times on heavy armor just feels a bit out of place with the rest of the skills as of late. They can keep it as it is, wouldn't bother much but I still share the opinion that it could be better compared what it is right now, using the skill at the right time isn't too difficult when you know your opponent sustain, I wouldn't think that's the problem but rather Lich Form is like one of the only skill that just go brrr dead in a matter of seconds.

In 3v3 it is extremely irritating because the skill cooldown doesn't matter much, people die too fast.

In conquest you plan at the end of a teamfight/fight in your favor and you can easily capitalize on the win. Lich Form along everything else that can be combined does have the means to not be countered or improved.

Seriously, yes it's counterable but is it fine to get obliterated because you can't always be in the best of positions to instinctively avoid it? By the time some professions LoS, they probably get projectiles homing around corners for what probably either kills or leave them at 10% health.

I'm sure it would be more fun to use the skill often for all the skills rather than just auto attacking people for half their health. In my experience, giving a Lich Weakness with my own 50% damage reduction I still see raw 2k hits at times, bit absurd.

To say that people can just focus the Lich goes the same as your team can support the Lich, it's a 2 way street.

[KrHome.1920]

Rework:

LichlandsCreate a virulent cloud that inflicts damage on foes in its area. Inflicts additional damage every second it persists. Gain 10% life force on usage.

Super innovative!

[Arheundel.6451]

If you want to see this elite nerfed for real..OP should change title : Necro TornadoForm needs to go...by easy association the interim in charge of balance will assume is an ele elite and as described by contract, it will be nerfed within 1 month max...I guarantee you

[Kondor.2904]

Is lich form dmg really an issue ? Or is it the amount of sustain paired with the dmg without much trade-off ?

[Shroud.2307]

And what does it get in return?

Offense is a Necro's defense because it lacks scaling defenses. If something(s) can negate/tank its damage it has nothing else to defend itself. It's weak to CC, has poor sustain outside of Shroud, is immobile, and dies faster than most things to focus fire because it has no blocks, invulnerability, or ways to escape assuming a Flesh Wurm isn't pre-summoned.

Lich Form is the very same. It has one stack of pulsing Stability which literally anything can take advantage of, no damage reduction, no option to enter Shroud, no Blinds, blocks, reflects, invulnerability... It's nothing but high damage to force you to stay away from it or die. If you reduce the damage too much and things can start tanking attacks long enough to force the Necro out of the transformation then it literally becomes useless (hence why anyone with a brain spamming Blinds, CC's, or damage on it will force the Necro out of the transformation immediately).

It's slow and squishy. As soon as you see the transform, take cover. You only have to do it for 10 seconds, and you can't tell me there's "no where to hide".

Yes, the damage is crazy high. And yes it can 2 shot you... So can; Soulbeast, Spellbreaker, Weaver, Mesmer/Chrono, Scrapper/Holo, Dragonhunter, etc. Various things have combos or skills that can hit 10k+ and kill you in a heartbeat. Why is Lich Form a problem when it's on a 120second cooldown?I just don't get the hate for this elite when you can trigger a random DH trap you didn't know was there and take a 9k tick but a giant Lich at walking pace that a small shrub can save you from is such an issue for some people.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

I don't get all these complaints about Lich Form. On majority of the maps, it's honestly so easy to LoS them or pressure them enough to drop it or risk dying. If it lasted more than 10 seconds, sure.

Necromancer has a few issues, but current Lich Form is not one of them.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:I don't get all these complaints about Lich Form. On majority of the maps, it's honestly so easy to LoS them or pressure them enough to drop it or risk dying. If it lasted more than 10 seconds, sure.

Necromancer has a few issues, but current Lich Form is not one of them.Sry but regardless of anything else anything doing 5k+ auto attacks is a problem.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Math.5123 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shieldbash.5304 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:No it doesn't. Try LoS / reflect.

Not all classes can Reflect bro!

all classes can, just not all classes can afford to use those skills.I bet using lich form against team with tempest doesnt get you far, while some other classes better have perfect cds ready or flop dead

Rev can't, can they?

They have more than one projectile block which is enough to neuter Lich DPS. Field of the Mists follows with you, so you can activate it, swap to a different weapon, and then DPS the Necro(s) hard.

That doesn't mean that Lich AA doesn't hit hard, it does. This is neither a statement in support of or against Lich Form.

ventari dome :expressionless: absortion dome that can last quite some good time if stationary (100% eneergy = 100sec)hammer 4 with staff comboshield5

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Shroud.2307" said:And what does it get in return?

Offense is a Necro's defense because it lacks scaling defenses. If something(s) can negate/tank its damage it has nothing else to defend itself. It's weak to CC, has poor sustain outside of Shroud, is immobile, and dies faster than most things to focus fire because it has no blocks, invulnerability, or ways to escape assuming a Flesh Wurm isn't pre-summoned.

Lich Form is the very same. It has one stack of pulsing Stability which literally anything can take advantage of, no damage reduction, no option to enter Shroud, no Blinds, blocks, reflects, invulnerability... It's nothing but high damage to force you to stay away from it or die. If you reduce the damage too much and things can start tanking attacks long enough to force the Necro out of the transformation then it literally becomes useless (hence why anyone with a brain spamming Blinds, CC's, or damage on it will force the Necro out of the transformation immediately).

It's slow and squishy. As soon as you see the transform, take cover. You only have to do it for 10 seconds, and you can't tell me there's "no where to hide".

Yes, the damage is crazy high. And yes it can 2 shot you... So can; Soulbeast, Spellbreaker, Weaver, Mesmer/Chrono, Scrapper/Holo, Dragonhunter, etc. Various things have combos or skills that can hit 10k+ and kill you in a heartbeat. Why is Lich Form a problem when it's on a 120second cooldown?I just don't get the hate for this elite when you can trigger a random DH trap you didn't know was there and take a 9k tick but a giant Lich at walking pace that a small shrub can save you from is such an issue for some people.

70k hp is necros defense. almost nothing can kill reaper with full shroud as I have tried on sic em soulbeast and after landing every single skill I barely got them out of shroud.lack of mobility or ways to deal with cc ? please, they run 3x stun breakes, stab on lich. Btw you can still dodge when you are lich form and it also has a fear.Its not used not since its bad but it takes time to cast, and in that time you might as well throw 7k dmg auto instead off hard CC.Mobility ? what is perma swiftness with speed runes, wurm, spectral-walk port AND low cd reaper dash then if not a mobility skill ?If that is low mobility then I am afraid to ask what is considered good mobility. And after rune of speed nerf you can just take lynx and trade some mobility for extra dmg.

And as for bad healing? consume condi will heal for ~9k +, constant healing through leeching from blood magic, staff gives regeneration on low CD, and blood magic has dodge trait that gives regeneration too. This is NOT a low sustain.

[Dadnir.5038]

@KrHome.1920 said:Rework:

LichlandsCreate a virulent cloud that inflicts damage on foes in its area. Inflicts additional damage every second it persists. Gain 10% life force on usage.

Super innovative!

Aura of the lich: For 20s whenever a creature die within the area, summon a minion that explode after a periode of time if it's not killed. Minion ICD 3s. The minion grant life force upon death (whether it's from explosion or if it's killed)

It's even better, there is the possibility to totally waste the skill.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I shall end this debacle over Lich Form for all time by revealing 3 ancient secrets known only by the best players and the best players tend to win.

The 3 secrets are:

1. L
2. O
3. S

This single video is a sacred unveiling of how to use the 3 secrets. Prepare yourself before watching it, as it may be the single largest revelation you have ever experienced in life. It may come with large emotional responses, seeing bright colors, and and increase in your GW2 rating.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/948214418

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I shall end this debacle over Lich Form for all time by revealing 3 ancient secrets known only by the best players and the best players tend to win.

The 3 secrets are:

1. L
2. O
3. S

This single video is a sacred unveiling of how to use the 3 secrets. Prepare yourself before watching it, as it may be the single largest revelation you have ever experienced in life. It may come with large emotional responses, seeing bright colors, and and increase in your GW2 rating.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/948214418

hmm... a staged fight where you told a necro to start a 1v1 with lich while you were ooc with full cds, and had a nicely planned pillar to run around, and you still got taken down to half health. Im not sure what point you are trying to prove here, i mean, after lich fades he just stands there not even trying to fight.