Would Guild Wars 2 classic work?

Teratus.2859 · April 10, 2021

@Ashen.2907 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Danikat.8537 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@"voidek.5738" said:Only way to replay LWS1. :'(Didn't this community learn with Visions of the Past that the LWs1 content is objectively poor and not worth the resources it takes to make playable again?

The problem with those is you only get 1 short instance, out of context. Judging the whole of season 1 on that would be like trying to decide if you like a TV show by watching 10 minutes from the middle of the next-to-last episode. You're not getting any of the context, you won't know who any of the characters are or what's going on so it won't make any sense and it will be virtually impossible to follow the plot or care what it is.This is by no means the only problem with this content.Not by a long shot.These instances were flat and unintersting. The Canach instance in particular is an awful gimmicky fight. I personally could have cared less about playing these things out of sequence. They were in essence supposed to be the best part of the content and they are substandard encounters by today's standards. Mechanics are awful, balance is janky, the environments other than Braham's instance have an amatuerish and unfinished feel.Compare these instances to the rest of the content we got with Visions of the Past, Forging Steel which is EXCELLENT, and the story instance with the Almora fight which stands out as one of the best story instance fights this game has ever delivered.You can take the Almora fight out of sequence and compare it to the Nightmare Incarnate instance and judge. You can take plenty of this game's content out of context, and rewards aside still have a fun and compelling encounter. The Season 1 content ages as well as a Tom Baker Doctor Who Episode. It has charm and is great for nostaligia, but it's production values make it borderline unwatchable.The content is objectively poor by today's standards.It works as a tech demo to show that they can bring back the instances but I don't know why they bothered showing it to players because getting tiny fragments out of order with no context bares absolutely no resemblance to getting season 1 back.They delivered this because the game director at the time, Mike-Z was busy catering to a loud vocal minority on this forum that said what was really important to their enjoyment of this game.They were catering to the same sentiment that fuelled the OP of this thread and putting what they could back in the game with the resources they had because a small part of this community asked for it over and over again.

I can appreicate and respect the desire to have a contiguous story in this game without the season 1 gap. I would like that too. But when I look at the content objectively and compare it with the rest of what we got with Visions of the Past or Icebrood Saga all I can do is ask:What else might we have gotten had the developers not diverted resources to this Nostalgia project?

Agreed.

LS1 was awful. I took an extended break from the game to reevaluate where to spend my gaming time in response to this content. It gave me the solid impression that the talent behind GW1 was gone.

None of that matters though, fact is this content is part of the game's story.

Just because it's not up to the same standards of new content doesn't mean it shouldn't be reintroduced to the game.. by that same logic we should just remove HoT and LW3 because they're "not up to the standards of new content" either.. who gives a kitten about players who've never played it before or are enjoying running Alt's through the story right?LW1 is part of this game.. it's part of this progressing story, doesn't matter how poor it may be in quality compared to newer stuff.It exists, so it should be replayable and if people don't want to play it then they can make the choice to skip it.. the choice to do so is what matters and atm nobody has that choice and we're all forced to skip content that some of us want to play.

mindcircus.1506 · April 10, 2021

@Teratus.2859 said:
@Ashen.2907 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Danikat.8537 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@"voidek.5738" said:Only way to replay LWS1. :'(Didn't this community learn with Visions of the Past that the LWs1 content is objectively poor and not worth the resources it takes to make playable again?

The problem with those is you only get 1 short instance, out of context. Judging the whole of season 1 on that would be like trying to decide if you like a TV show by watching 10 minutes from the middle of the next-to-last episode. You're not getting any of the context, you won't know who any of the characters are or what's going on so it won't make any sense and it will be virtually impossible to follow the plot or care what it is.This is by no means the only problem with this content.Not by a long shot.These instances were flat and unintersting. The Canach instance in particular is an awful gimmicky fight. I personally could have cared less about playing these things out of sequence. They were in essence supposed to be the best part of the content and they are substandard encounters by today's standards. Mechanics are awful, balance is janky, the environments other than Braham's instance have an amatuerish and unfinished feel.Compare these instances to the rest of the content we got with Visions of the Past, Forging Steel which is EXCELLENT, and the story instance with the Almora fight which stands out as one of the best story instance fights this game has ever delivered.You can take the Almora fight out of sequence and compare it to the Nightmare Incarnate instance and judge. You can take plenty of this game's content out of context, and rewards aside still have a fun and compelling encounter. The Season 1 content ages as well as a Tom Baker Doctor Who Episode. It has charm and is great for nostaligia, but it's production values make it borderline unwatchable.The content is objectively poor by today's standards.It works as a tech demo to show that they can bring back the instances but I don't know why they bothered showing it to players because getting tiny fragments out of order with no context bares absolutely no resemblance to getting season 1 back.They delivered this because the game director at the time, Mike-Z was busy catering to a loud vocal minority on this forum that said what was really important to their enjoyment of this game.They were catering to the same sentiment that fuelled the OP of this thread and putting what they could back in the game with the resources they had because a small part of this community asked for it over and over again.

I can appreicate and respect the desire to have a contiguous story in this game without the season 1 gap. I would like that too. But when I look at the content objectively and compare it with the rest of what we got with Visions of the Past or Icebrood Saga all I can do is ask:What else might we have gotten had the developers not diverted resources to this Nostalgia project?

Agreed.

LS1 was awful. I took an extended break from the game to reevaluate where to spend my gaming time in response to this content. It gave me the solid impression that the talent behind GW1 was gone.

None of that matters though, fact is this content is part of the game's story.

Just because it's not up to the same standards of new content doesn't mean it shouldn't be reintroduced to the game.. by that same logic we should just remove HoT and LW3 because they're "not up to the standards of new content" either.. who gives a kitten about players who've never played it before or are enjoying running Alt's through the story right?If these had been presented in a way that it would cost sigificant developer resources to restore them you might have a point.But they don't.So you don't.

KryTiKaL.3125 · April 10, 2021

@Danikat.8537 said:I take it you mean something like WoW Classic where they release a separate server with a copy of the game as it was at launch?

Just for clarifications sake on this particular part; Classic WoW released with one of its final patches which included all (up to that point) balance changes, and QoL stuff that they added over the course of Vanilla WoW's life. They went with different release phases for the content that was released over the course of that time so that players didn't burn through all of the Raids and other content in like the first month or less. The same will happen with Classic Burning Crusade.

Teratus.2859 · April 11, 2021

@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
@Ashen.2907 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Danikat.8537 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@"voidek.5738" said:Only way to replay LWS1. :'(Didn't this community learn with Visions of the Past that the LWs1 content is objectively poor and not worth the resources it takes to make playable again?

The problem with those is you only get 1 short instance, out of context. Judging the whole of season 1 on that would be like trying to decide if you like a TV show by watching 10 minutes from the middle of the next-to-last episode. You're not getting any of the context, you won't know who any of the characters are or what's going on so it won't make any sense and it will be virtually impossible to follow the plot or care what it is.This is by no means the only problem with this content.Not by a long shot.These instances were flat and unintersting. The Canach instance in particular is an awful gimmicky fight. I personally could have cared less about playing these things out of sequence. They were in essence supposed to be the best part of the content and they are substandard encounters by today's standards. Mechanics are awful, balance is janky, the environments other than Braham's instance have an amatuerish and unfinished feel.Compare these instances to the rest of the content we got with Visions of the Past, Forging Steel which is EXCELLENT, and the story instance with the Almora fight which stands out as one of the best story instance fights this game has ever delivered.You can take the Almora fight out of sequence and compare it to the Nightmare Incarnate instance and judge. You can take plenty of this game's content out of context, and rewards aside still have a fun and compelling encounter. The Season 1 content ages as well as a Tom Baker Doctor Who Episode. It has charm and is great for nostaligia, but it's production values make it borderline unwatchable.The content is objectively poor by today's standards.It works as a tech demo to show that they can bring back the instances but I don't know why they bothered showing it to players because getting tiny fragments out of order with no context bares absolutely no resemblance to getting season 1 back.They delivered this because the game director at the time, Mike-Z was busy catering to a loud vocal minority on this forum that said what was really important to their enjoyment of this game.They were catering to the same sentiment that fuelled the OP of this thread and putting what they could back in the game with the resources they had because a small part of this community asked for it over and over again.

I can appreicate and respect the desire to have a contiguous story in this game without the season 1 gap. I would like that too. But when I look at the content objectively and compare it with the rest of what we got with Visions of the Past or Icebrood Saga all I can do is ask:What else might we have gotten had the developers not diverted resources to this Nostalgia project?

Agreed.

LS1 was awful. I took an extended break from the game to reevaluate where to spend my gaming time in response to this content. It gave me the solid impression that the talent behind GW1 was gone.

None of that matters though, fact is this content is part of the game's story.

Just because it's not up to the same standards of new content doesn't mean it shouldn't be reintroduced to the game.. by that same logic we should just remove HoT and LW3 because they're "not up to the standards of new content" either.. who gives a kitten about players who've never played it before or are enjoying running Alt's through the story right?If these had been presented in a way that it would cost sigificant developer resources to restore them you might have a point.But they don't.So you don't.

They take up server space, it costs resources to keep them live and developer resources to fix them when they bug out.So there's not that much of a difference.

Parts of LW1 don't need to be modified all that much, some of it can be re-enabled as it was like the Marionette, hell they could even blend it in with a kralkatorrik time rift if they really wanted to.It wouldn't be a small effortless job but it also wouldn't demand expansion level resources to do either.

The biggest issues would be the Lions Arch attacks which could be accessed via a NPC in Gendarran Fields.Make this content instanced and scaling and modify the objectives a little it will work almost exactly like a DRM.Same can be done for the Tower of Nightmares.Some of the open world stuff could be cut out or made instanced, the holiday parts can be left out naturally.Other open world stuff can be modified to client side, Anet has the tech for this now and we've seen it in action a few times such as having story NPC's with us in the open world and only we can see them.This could also be done with things like the Energy Probes.

Anet already has everything they need to fix LW1 and a number of Devs have said in the past that they want to do it.I party blame people who just want new new new new new all the time and who don't even give a kitten about this game's story anyway as one of the main reasons it hasn't already been done.. But I don't care about those players and their fickle demands, this game is heavily designed around it's story so story content should always come first.But Anet's the one that ultimately makes that decision so it's their fault mostly.Hopefully this is something they will finally get around to after End of Dragons.. they'll have no excuse at that point since the GW2 main campaign will be over and a break from new content will be expected.If they push on to new story before fixing the old then I will take that is a very clear sign that Anet (the company not the developers) doesn't care about this game as much as they let on.

Dawdler.8521 · April 11, 2021

@Teratus.2859 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
@Ashen.2907 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Danikat.8537 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@"voidek.5738" said:Only way to replay LWS1. :'(Didn't this community learn with Visions of the Past that the LWs1 content is objectively poor and not worth the resources it takes to make playable again?

The problem with those is you only get 1 short instance, out of context. Judging the whole of season 1 on that would be like trying to decide if you like a TV show by watching 10 minutes from the middle of the next-to-last episode. You're not getting any of the context, you won't know who any of the characters are or what's going on so it won't make any sense and it will be virtually impossible to follow the plot or care what it is.This is by no means the only problem with this content.Not by a long shot.These instances were flat and unintersting. The Canach instance in particular is an awful gimmicky fight. I personally could have cared less about playing these things out of sequence. They were in essence supposed to be the best part of the content and they are substandard encounters by today's standards. Mechanics are awful, balance is janky, the environments other than Braham's instance have an amatuerish and unfinished feel.Compare these instances to the rest of the content we got with Visions of the Past, Forging Steel which is EXCELLENT, and the story instance with the Almora fight which stands out as one of the best story instance fights this game has ever delivered.You can take the Almora fight out of sequence and compare it to the Nightmare Incarnate instance and judge. You can take plenty of this game's content out of context, and rewards aside still have a fun and compelling encounter. The Season 1 content ages as well as a Tom Baker Doctor Who Episode. It has charm and is great for nostaligia, but it's production values make it borderline unwatchable.The content is objectively poor by today's standards.It works as a tech demo to show that they can bring back the instances but I don't know why they bothered showing it to players because getting tiny fragments out of order with no context bares absolutely no resemblance to getting season 1 back.They delivered this because the game director at the time, Mike-Z was busy catering to a loud vocal minority on this forum that said what was really important to their enjoyment of this game.They were catering to the same sentiment that fuelled the OP of this thread and putting what they could back in the game with the resources they had because a small part of this community asked for it over and over again.

I can appreicate and respect the desire to have a contiguous story in this game without the season 1 gap. I would like that too. But when I look at the content objectively and compare it with the rest of what we got with Visions of the Past or Icebrood Saga all I can do is ask:What else might we have gotten had the developers not diverted resources to this Nostalgia project?

Agreed.

LS1 was awful. I took an extended break from the game to reevaluate where to spend my gaming time in response to this content. It gave me the solid impression that the talent behind GW1 was gone.

None of that matters though, fact is this content is part of the game's story.

Just because it's not up to the same standards of new content doesn't mean it shouldn't be reintroduced to the game.. by that same logic we should just remove HoT and LW3 because they're "not up to the standards of new content" either.. who gives a kitten about players who've never played it before or are enjoying running Alt's through the story right?If these had been presented in a way that it would cost sigificant developer resources to restore them you might have a point.But they don't.So you don't.

They take up server space, it costs resources to keep them live and developer resources to fix them when they bug out.So there's not that much of a difference.

Parts of LW1 don't need to be modified all that much, some of it can be re-enabled as it was like the Marionette, hell they could even blend it in with a kralkatorrik time rift if they really wanted to.It wouldn't be a small effortless job but it also wouldn't demand expansion level resources to do either.

The biggest issues would be the Lions Arch attacks which could be accessed via a NPC in Gendarran Fields.Make this content instanced and scaling and modify the objectives a little it will work almost exactly like a DRM.Same can be done for the Tower of Nightmares.Some of the open world stuff could be cut out or made instanced, the holiday parts can be left out naturally.Other open world stuff can be modified to client side, Anet has the tech for this now and we've seen it in action a few times such as having story NPC's with us in the open world and only we can see them.This could also be done with things like the Energy Probes.

Anet already has everything they need to fix LW1 and a number of Devs have said in the past that they want to do it.I party blame people who just want new new new new new all the time and who don't even give a kitten about this game's story anyway as one of the main reasons it hasn't already been done.. But I don't care about those players and their fickle demands, this game is heavily designed around it's story so story content should always come first.But Anet's the one that ultimately makes that decision so it's their fault mostly.Hopefully this is something they will finally get around to after End of Dragons.. they'll have no excuse at that point since the GW2 main campaign will be over and a break from new content will be expected.If they push on to new story before fixing the old then I will take that is a very clear sign that Anet (the company not the developers) doesn't care about this game as much as they let on.Or, lets forget all about that and just make it like it should be - fractals.

LucianDK.8615 · April 11, 2021

Classic GW2 would be horrid. Lacking so many qol features. As well having to walk around a huge world and not having gliders or mounts. No thank you.

Teratus.2859 · April 11, 2021

@Dawdler.8521 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
@Ashen.2907 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Danikat.8537 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@"voidek.5738" said:Only way to replay LWS1. :'(Didn't this community learn with Visions of the Past that the LWs1 content is objectively poor and not worth the resources it takes to make playable again?

The problem with those is you only get 1 short instance, out of context. Judging the whole of season 1 on that would be like trying to decide if you like a TV show by watching 10 minutes from the middle of the next-to-last episode. You're not getting any of the context, you won't know who any of the characters are or what's going on so it won't make any sense and it will be virtually impossible to follow the plot or care what it is.This is by no means the only problem with this content.Not by a long shot.These instances were flat and unintersting. The Canach instance in particular is an awful gimmicky fight. I personally could have cared less about playing these things out of sequence. They were in essence supposed to be the best part of the content and they are substandard encounters by today's standards. Mechanics are awful, balance is janky, the environments other than Braham's instance have an amatuerish and unfinished feel.Compare these instances to the rest of the content we got with Visions of the Past, Forging Steel which is EXCELLENT, and the story instance with the Almora fight which stands out as one of the best story instance fights this game has ever delivered.You can take the Almora fight out of sequence and compare it to the Nightmare Incarnate instance and judge. You can take plenty of this game's content out of context, and rewards aside still have a fun and compelling encounter. The Season 1 content ages as well as a Tom Baker Doctor Who Episode. It has charm and is great for nostaligia, but it's production values make it borderline unwatchable.The content is objectively poor by today's standards.It works as a tech demo to show that they can bring back the instances but I don't know why they bothered showing it to players because getting tiny fragments out of order with no context bares absolutely no resemblance to getting season 1 back.They delivered this because the game director at the time, Mike-Z was busy catering to a loud vocal minority on this forum that said what was really important to their enjoyment of this game.They were catering to the same sentiment that fuelled the OP of this thread and putting what they could back in the game with the resources they had because a small part of this community asked for it over and over again.

I can appreicate and respect the desire to have a contiguous story in this game without the season 1 gap. I would like that too. But when I look at the content objectively and compare it with the rest of what we got with Visions of the Past or Icebrood Saga all I can do is ask:What else might we have gotten had the developers not diverted resources to this Nostalgia project?

Agreed.

LS1 was awful. I took an extended break from the game to reevaluate where to spend my gaming time in response to this content. It gave me the solid impression that the talent behind GW1 was gone.

None of that matters though, fact is this content is part of the game's story.

Just because it's not up to the same standards of new content doesn't mean it shouldn't be reintroduced to the game.. by that same logic we should just remove HoT and LW3 because they're "not up to the standards of new content" either.. who gives a kitten about players who've never played it before or are enjoying running Alt's through the story right?If these had been presented in a way that it would cost sigificant developer resources to restore them you might have a point.But they don't.So you don't.

They take up server space, it costs resources to keep them live and developer resources to fix them when they bug out.So there's not that much of a difference.

Parts of LW1 don't need to be modified all that much, some of it can be re-enabled as it was like the Marionette, hell they could even blend it in with a kralkatorrik time rift if they really wanted to.It wouldn't be a small effortless job but it also wouldn't demand expansion level resources to do either.

The biggest issues would be the Lions Arch attacks which could be accessed via a NPC in Gendarran Fields.Make this content instanced and scaling and modify the objectives a little it will work almost exactly like a DRM.Same can be done for the Tower of Nightmares.Some of the open world stuff could be cut out or made instanced, the holiday parts can be left out naturally.Other open world stuff can be modified to client side, Anet has the tech for this now and we've seen it in action a few times such as having story NPC's with us in the open world and only we can see them.This could also be done with things like the Energy Probes.

Anet already has everything they need to fix LW1 and a number of Devs have said in the past that they want to do it.I party blame people who just want new new new new new all the time and who don't even give a kitten about this game's story anyway as one of the main reasons it hasn't already been done.. But I don't care about those players and their fickle demands, this game is heavily designed around it's story so story content should always come first.But Anet's the one that ultimately makes that decision so it's their fault mostly.Hopefully this is something they will finally get around to after End of Dragons.. they'll have no excuse at that point since the GW2 main campaign will be over and a break from new content will be expected.If they push on to new story before fixing the old then I will take that is a very clear sign that Anet (the company not the developers) doesn't care about this game as much as they let on.Or, lets forget all about that and just make it like it should be - fractals.

Lot of people don't care for Fractals.. and there are a number who also dislike that Dungeon stories are team based content and have regularly requested they be made solo friendly.

Arguably the only reason some LW1 stuff was made into Fractals is because they already had the assets and the work done.. and it was being wasted being unused.An easy way to get some quick fractals out to bloat the content more which it desperately needed back then.

The story however didn't translate to the fractals and that's the main thing people want LW1 for.Besides if LW1 would return we could remove the LW1 fractals leaving room for entirely new fractals that would at this point more than likely be an improvement over the ones being removed.Lot of people still want to see what the Abaddon Fractal would have been like, others have requested in the past that we get more historical moments as fractals in Gw2.Defeating Shiro, Purifying Glint or participating in the old Guild Wars would make for interesting Fractals, Hell they could even do a joke Fractal where we plays as Commandos lol there's tons of potential for stuff like that and Fractals appeal to a much bigger target than Raids and Strikes do so it's far more worthwhile to make new fractals than it is to make new raids and strikes which far less people enjoy.

Sobx.1758 · April 11, 2021

@Teratus.2859 said:
@Ashen.2907 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Danikat.8537 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@"voidek.5738" said:Only way to replay LWS1. :'(Didn't this community learn with Visions of the Past that the LWs1 content is objectively poor and not worth the resources it takes to make playable again?

The problem with those is you only get 1 short instance, out of context. Judging the whole of season 1 on that would be like trying to decide if you like a TV show by watching 10 minutes from the middle of the next-to-last episode. You're not getting any of the context, you won't know who any of the characters are or what's going on so it won't make any sense and it will be virtually impossible to follow the plot or care what it is.This is by no means the only problem with this content.Not by a long shot.These instances were flat and unintersting. The Canach instance in particular is an awful gimmicky fight. I personally could have cared less about playing these things out of sequence. They were in essence supposed to be the best part of the content and they are substandard encounters by today's standards. Mechanics are awful, balance is janky, the environments other than Braham's instance have an amatuerish and unfinished feel.Compare these instances to the rest of the content we got with Visions of the Past, Forging Steel which is EXCELLENT, and the story instance with the Almora fight which stands out as one of the best story instance fights this game has ever delivered.You can take the Almora fight out of sequence and compare it to the Nightmare Incarnate instance and judge. You can take plenty of this game's content out of context, and rewards aside still have a fun and compelling encounter. The Season 1 content ages as well as a Tom Baker Doctor Who Episode. It has charm and is great for nostaligia, but it's production values make it borderline unwatchable.The content is objectively poor by today's standards.It works as a tech demo to show that they can bring back the instances but I don't know why they bothered showing it to players because getting tiny fragments out of order with no context bares absolutely no resemblance to getting season 1 back.They delivered this because the game director at the time, Mike-Z was busy catering to a loud vocal minority on this forum that said what was really important to their enjoyment of this game.They were catering to the same sentiment that fuelled the OP of this thread and putting what they could back in the game with the resources they had because a small part of this community asked for it over and over again.

I can appreicate and respect the desire to have a contiguous story in this game without the season 1 gap. I would like that too. But when I look at the content objectively and compare it with the rest of what we got with Visions of the Past or Icebrood Saga all I can do is ask:What else might we have gotten had the developers not diverted resources to this Nostalgia project?

Agreed.

LS1 was awful. I took an extended break from the game to reevaluate where to spend my gaming time in response to this content. It gave me the solid impression that the talent behind GW1 was gone.

None of that matters though, fact is this content is part of the game's story.

This content might be part of the game's story, but it's no longer part of the game? :D

Just because it's not up to the same standards of new content doesn't mean it shouldn't be reintroduced to the game..

On the opposite side of this argument -just because at one point it was part of the game, doesn't mean it needs to be reintroduced after x years, right?

HoT and LW3 because they're "not up to the standards of new content" either..

"should remove because" part aside, I just disagree with this statement at its core. HoT is still great. LW3 is still fine.

voltaicbore.8012 · April 11, 2021

@mindcircus.1506 said:
@voidek.5738 said:Only way to replay LWS1. :'(Didn't this community learn with Visions of the Past that the LWs1 content is objectively poor and not worth the resources it takes to make playable again?

Agreed. As someone who joined after HoT, I always wanted to see LWS1. Then the scrying pool let me get a taste of it, and suddenly I realized that just listening to WoodenPotatoes' S1 recap might be even better than having the experience itself.

To acknowledge what other said about context/full season vs weird snippets of it/etc., I hear you and agree with you. Think it's precisely because the full context is so important that we'll never get the magic of S1 back. Sure, maybe they can DRM the tower of nightmare or reclaiming LA, but I think a lot of the appeal of S1 seems to be in the fact that those changes were live for everyone, and story development updated the game world for everyone. No matter what, the instancing of S1 content is going to fail to recapture that magic.

Astyrah.4015 · April 11, 2021

@voltaicbore.8012 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@voidek.5738 said:Only way to replay LWS1. :'(Didn't this community learn with Visions of the Past that the LWs1 content is objectively poor and not worth the resources it takes to make playable again?

Agreed. As someone who joined after HoT, I always wanted to see LWS1. Then the scrying pool let me get a taste of it, and suddenly I realized that just listening to WoodenPotatoes' S1 recap might be even better than having the experience itself.

To acknowledge what other said about context/full season vs weird snippets of it/etc., I hear you and agree with you. Think it's precisely because the full context is so important that we'll never get the magic of S1 back. Sure, maybe they can DRM the tower of nightmare or reclaiming LA, but I think a lot of the appeal of S1 seems to be in the fact that those changes were live for everyone, and story development updated the game world for everyone. No matter what, the instancing of S1 content is going to fail to recapture that magic.

agree. you can never recreate the actual live experience of LWS1 with instances because it will never recreate the same experience of actually being there when it was the current content.

it's best if we all just moved on. i never experienced season 1 myself and just took it upon myself to read just about every bit of story and lore about it via the wiki and other sources ( i prefer reading over watching a video =) ) -- while i would play it if they ever released more instances/story missions replaying the experience, i would be fine if it never came to be as well

HappyHubris.1096 · April 11, 2021

@Ayakaru.6583 said:And not have to see SAB skins outside the hub everywhere
This guy gets it.

mindcircus.1506 · April 11, 2021

@Teratus.2859 said:
@Dawdler.8521 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
@Ashen.2907 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@Danikat.8537 said:
@mindcircus.1506 said:
@"voidek.5738" said:Only way to replay LWS1. :'(Didn't this community learn with Visions of the Past that the LWs1 content is objectively poor and not worth the resources it takes to make playable again?

The problem with those is you only get 1 short instance, out of context. Judging the whole of season 1 on that would be like trying to decide if you like a TV show by watching 10 minutes from the middle of the next-to-last episode. You're not getting any of the context, you won't know who any of the characters are or what's going on so it won't make any sense and it will be virtually impossible to follow the plot or care what it is.This is by no means the only problem with this content.Not by a long shot.These instances were flat and unintersting. The Canach instance in particular is an awful gimmicky fight. I personally could have cared less about playing these things out of sequence. They were in essence supposed to be the best part of the content and they are substandard encounters by today's standards. Mechanics are awful, balance is janky, the environments other than Braham's instance have an amatuerish and unfinished feel.Compare these instances to the rest of the content we got with Visions of the Past, Forging Steel which is EXCELLENT, and the story instance with the Almora fight which stands out as one of the best story instance fights this game has ever delivered.You can take the Almora fight out of sequence and compare it to the Nightmare Incarnate instance and judge. You can take plenty of this game's content out of context, and rewards aside still have a fun and compelling encounter. The Season 1 content ages as well as a Tom Baker Doctor Who Episode. It has charm and is great for nostaligia, but it's production values make it borderline unwatchable.The content is objectively poor by today's standards.It works as a tech demo to show that they can bring back the instances but I don't know why they bothered showing it to players because getting tiny fragments out of order with no context bares absolutely no resemblance to getting season 1 back.They delivered this because the game director at the time, Mike-Z was busy catering to a loud vocal minority on this forum that said what was really important to their enjoyment of this game.They were catering to the same sentiment that fuelled the OP of this thread and putting what they could back in the game with the resources they had because a small part of this community asked for it over and over again.

I can appreicate and respect the desire to have a contiguous story in this game without the season 1 gap. I would like that too. But when I look at the content objectively and compare it with the rest of what we got with Visions of the Past or Icebrood Saga all I can do is ask:What else might we have gotten had the developers not diverted resources to this Nostalgia project?

Agreed.

LS1 was awful. I took an extended break from the game to reevaluate where to spend my gaming time in response to this content. It gave me the solid impression that the talent behind GW1 was gone.

None of that matters though, fact is this content is part of the game's story.

Just because it's not up to the same standards of new content doesn't mean it shouldn't be reintroduced to the game.. by that same logic we should just remove HoT and LW3 because they're "not up to the standards of new content" either.. who gives a kitten about players who've never played it before or are enjoying running Alt's through the story right?If these had been presented in a way that it would cost sigificant developer resources to restore them you might have a point.But they don't.So you don't.

They take up server space, it costs resources to keep them live and developer resources to fix them when they bug out.So there's not that much of a difference.Incorrect.There is a MASSIVE difference.Anet is on record with a few of the challenges regarding bringing back this content. They have been uncharacteristically candid about some of the difficulties involved in restoring this content to a playable state. It is absolutely different than just providing bug fixes and paying their bill to AWS for rack space. At least one dev is on record as saying significant amounts of the S1 content would have to be completely redone.If it were as easy as you claim, this content would have been restored long ago and we would have seen a patch that said "Restored Season 1 content to a playable state" under World Polish...like just about every patch this game has ever delivered.Parts of LW1 don't need to be modified all that much, some of it can be re-enabled as it was like the Marionette, hell they could even blend it in with a kralkatorrik time rift if they really wanted to.It wouldn't be a small effortless job but it also wouldn't demand expansion level resources to do either.Maybe not an expansion, but significant amounts of an entire LW season for sure.And I am not going to hang around for a year/year and a half while Anet restores clearly supar content that has already been summarized in cut scenes.This game has consistently delivered high quality updates for a massive chunk of the years I have been playing it. It's a big part of what keeps me here.Tell me that I will have to wait a year while they restore objectively poor content to a playable state?If the content was good...fine.But it really isnt. Visions of the Past proves this objectively.The biggest issues would be the Lions Arch attacks which could be accessed via a NPC in Gendarran Fields.Make this content instanced and scaling and modify the objectives a little it will work almost exactly like a DRM.Same can be done for the Tower of Nightmares.Some of the open world stuff could be cut out or made instanced, the holiday parts can be left out naturally.Other open world stuff can be modified to client side, Anet has the tech for this now and we've seen it in action a few times such as having story NPC's with us in the open world and only we can see them.This could also be done with things like the Energy Probes.All you prove with these examples is that you have little idea what is involved in Video Game Development. You are painting a picture that ignores all the challenges involved particularly in a title with as many moving parts as an MMO has.Anet already has everything they need to fix LW1 and a number of Devs have said in the past that they want to do it.I party blame people who just want new new new new new all the time and who don't even give a kitten about this game's story anyway as one of the main reasons it hasn't already been done.. But I don't care about those players and their fickle demands, this game is heavily designed around it's story so story content should always come first.This is a pretty divisive take that ignores many realities and really just misplaces your dissatisfaction as a consumer as if your way to enjoy this game is the only way.Plenty of the people who oppose a large amount of time and effort being spent to restore this content like the story just fine. Some are even as passionate about it as you claim to be.What they don't want is to wait for more while Anet delivers substandard old stuff just to play to the Nostalgia and pedantic nature of a vocal minority.The fact you are looking to blame people who have zero say in the matter like this should give you pause for a moment of self-reflectionBut Anet's the one that ultimately makes that decision so it's their fault mostly.Hopefully this is something they will finally get around to after End of Dragons.. they'll have no excuse at that point since the GW2 main campaign will be over and a break from new content will be expected.And yet Anet themselves have been clear that End of Dragons is not the end of the campaign.

TheQuickFox.3826 · April 11, 2021

I would not value it too much. I'm an achievement hunter above all else. I prefer to have the progress that is made by playing for many years over the lifetime of the game with it's releases and expansions.

Sure, I would give GW2 classic a try, but most of my play time would stay on the main game.Maybe GW1 classic would make some sense. That was quite a different game in the time before the release of Factions. Where there were less skills and no heroes. But I would rather see the development efforts go to the main game of GW2 or GW1 rather than a parallel universe. (Classic)

Teratus.2859 · April 11, 2021

@"mindcircus.1506" said:Incorrect.There is a MASSIVE difference.Anet is on record with a few of the challenges regarding bringing back this content. They have been uncharacteristically candid about some of the difficulties involved in restoring this content to a playable state. It is absolutely different than just providing bug fixes and paying their bill to AWS for rack space. At least one dev is on record as saying significant amounts of the S1 content would have to be completely redone.

Obviously, I never said it would be easy.. I just said it's worth doing.I was just poking fun at the tired "standards" and "resource" arguments with an exaggerated statement.

Point being just because something is dated doesn't mean it should be willingly neglected.. especially if it's significant, in this case LW1 is because it contains major plot points that define the direction of the story and the characters that will be with us for the next several years.If you don't think that's relevant then go complete the personal story again and then go straight into LW2.. take note of the huge gap in story direction there and why you have a new bunch of friends who you've never seen in any content prior..That is a problem for the consistency and integrity of this game's story.. something that bothers me and plenty of others.

If it were as easy as you claim, this content would have been restored long ago and we would have seen a patch that said "Restored Season 1 content to a playable state" under World Polish...like just about every patch this game has ever delivered.

Not true, and again I didn't say it would be easy.There are other areas of the game that are worth improving especially in the core game which would be significantly easier than restoring LW1 and they haven't done that either, that's largely because the focus is always push ahead with new content.It's got nothing to do with it being easy or hard.. it's simply a matter of moving on and forgetting about the old stuff.

The downside of this as i've said for years is that first impressions of this game are always going to be based on the old neglected content that most of us agree does not accurately represent the significant improvements the game has gotten over the many years of new content.And if that old content fails to impress some people (which is does) then it doesn't matter how much better the new stuff is, some people won't stick around long enough to experience it.. and they're certainly far less likely to invest money into the game.

Maybe not an expansion, but significant amounts of an entire LW season for sure.

I'd expect that at least for sure.

And I am not going to hang around for a year/year and a half while Anet restores clearly supar content that has already been summarized in cut scenes.This game has consistently delivered high quality updates for a massive chunk of the years I have been playing it. It's a big part of what keeps me here.Tell me that I will have to wait a year while they restore objectively poor content to a playable state?If the content was good...fine.But it really isnt. Visions of the Past proves this objectively.

This is another contradictory point people bring up often, they claim LW1 would have to be reworked to be re-added back to the game and then claim it would be subpar content because LW1 sucks.If it has to be reworked then it won't be the same subpar content would it.They'd be able to improve it, the Dev's wouldn't make intentionally bad content just to be faithful to something that already needs significant reworks anyway, that would just be silly.Nobody would complain about LW1 getting improvements to make it significantly better than it was.. especially when so many people even those who want it back in Gw2 tend to agree that it wasn't all that good.In fact I would bet that most people would actually ask for it to be improved.

I certainly would as well, and for years i've been vocal about my support for improving the older more dated content in Gw2.Gw2 deserves it and I firmly believe the whole game would be much better off for it it if older parts of the game were improved.If you don't believe that then go and look back at how well the Shatterer and Tequatl reworks were received by players.. it's literal proof that this is worth doing.

And I doubt it would take a year/year and a half either, they already have all the the assets etc and the foundation of the story they need to tell.It would take time yes but certainly not as much as designing a whole season of Living world from scratch.. and they could release it in parts when finished as well like any other living world season so there would be no year long drought of content, it would just be improved content you may have played before.

All you prove with these examples is that you have little idea what is involved in Video Game Development. You are painting a picture that ignores all the challenges involved particularly in a title with as many moving parts as an MMO has.

Those examples are nothing more than examples on how some big parts of the first season could be reworked because they would need to be reworked in some way.The only point I was making with those examples is that the tools already exist to rework them into a playable form.. and that is not an opinion, it's a fact proven by the existence of things like DRM's and Client side NPC's and dialogue etc.My "understanding" of game development is completely irrelevant here, my point still stands.

This is a pretty divisive take that ignores many realities and really just misplaces your dissatisfaction as a consumer as if your way to enjoy this game is the only way.

So you're saying all those players who openly admit they don't give a kitten about the game's story don't exist?..They do, you can find quite a few of them here on the forums.

There are plenty of people out there who don't care about the stuff I care about and there are plenty who don't care about the stuff you care about either, there's no point in trying to force everyone to think the same way and care about the same things.. that's never going to happen.The only thing you can do in that case is just accept those differences and not care about them.You can go mad caring about all the opinions of others who think differently to you lol.

Anyway, Gw2 is a heavily story driven MMO.. that again is not an opinion, it's a fact.. there's no way anyone can play this game and disagree with that.It would be like saying Call of Duty isn't about war XD

Plenty of the people who oppose a large amount of time and effort being spent to restore this content like the story just fine. Some are even as passionate about it as you claim to be.

I didn't say that though did I.I said "people who just want new new new new new all the time and who don't give a kitten about this game's story anyway"There are plenty of people like that around and they're quite vocal about their dislike of this game's story.And I never said anything about that being the wrong way to play the game either, they can play and find enjoyment in the game however they like.

All I said was that I don't care about them, meaning I don't care about how they enjoy the game just as they don't care about how I enjoy the game.There is nothing wrong with that statement and it's certainly not divisive as you put it.We just care about different things and that's fine, each to their own.But I will argue for what I want Gw2 to be, and I expect everyone else to do the same if they love this game as much as I do.

What they don't want is to wait for more while Anet delivers substandard old stuff just to play to the Nostalgia and pedantic nature of a vocal minority.

It has nothing to do with nostalgia, it's entirely about the integrity and quality of a game we love.

Say you bought a new Tv Series on DvD but it was broken and one episode of the series would skip over every time you tried to watch it.Then you learned that every DvD of this series was the same.Then the creators of the series put a small disclaimer online saying they had no intention of fixing the episode and give a short statement about what happened in it saying that it was enough of a solution to the problem.You would naturally be annoyed by this, especially when those who saw the broken episode when it aired on TV come into the discussion and said "eh it was a kitten episode anyway"

It's the same principle here, that's why it annoys us, nostalgia has nothing to do with it, it's a matter of GW2's quality and integrity as a great game which we believe is diminished by the fact that Season 1 is missing and the older content is neglected of some much needed TLC.

And we're not "pedantic" because we care about the entire!! experience of this game, rather than only the new stuff like some people do.

The fact you are looking to blame people who have zero say in the matter like this should give you pause for a moment of self-reflection.

Read again."But Anet's the one that ultimately makes that decision so it's their fault mostly"The only blame I assign to those people is the demand they create that feeds Anet's decision to move on and neglect stuff.

You're putting way too much weight and negativity on the word "blame" here, all it means is assigning some responsibility.. they create a demand that's counterproductive to what some others want and Anet shares a similar stance, ergo they are responsible in some small part for Anet's decision to forge ahead and neglect their older content.Anet would be more inclined to listen to other people if this demand was less so yes I blame them in part, but certainly not in any nefarious and hostile way as you seem to think.And as for fickle.. again it's not a nefarious word, a significant amount of people these days are fickle.. always wanting more and new.. and they're far harder to please as well.There's nothing wrong with being fickle either, my choice of words were fine and accurate.

Hopefully this is something they will finally get around to after End of Dragons.. they'll have no excuse at that point since the GW2 main campaign will be over and a break from new content will be expected.And yet Anet themselves have been clear that End of Dragons is not the end of the campaign.

Pretty sure they said something along the lines of It being the end of the Elder Dragon arc, which is Gw2's main campaign.But it will not be the end of new story content in Gw2.Post End of Dragons well likely be moving on to side stories or perhaps a second campaign or something.. we won't know for sure till we get there.(Personally i'm hoping for a whole new campaign with future expansions etc that'll keep this game going for a long time yet.)

But this several year long Elder Dragon Campaign will be finished and I do expect there will be some kind of content drought afterwards.Fixing up LW1 in that time would be one way they could minimise that drought and make some money while they decide on where to take Gw2 next.

Inculpatus cedo.9234 · April 11, 2021

I don't think the Devs have no idea what they are going to do after End of Dragons.
Just as they had 5+ year plans, updated periodically, for the current story, I'd guess they have plans for where the story will go after the expansion (since they already mentioned that). I'd also say, they aren't planning on a content drought.

I suppose only time will tell.

mindcircus.1506 · April 11, 2021

@"Teratus.2859" said:Obviously, I never said it would be easy.. I just said it's worth doing.You said... in as many words... that it was on the same level as paying for server space and bugfixing current playable content.I was just poking fun at the tired "standards" and "resource" arguments with an exaggerated statement.This is the first of many many backpeddals in your post. "I was just poking fun..", "that's not what I meant", "you are focussing on the wrong part of what I said".I'm not going to address them individually because I won't go down the rabbit hole with you playing semantics because reality does not fit your personal narrative.If you don't think that's relevant then go complete the personal story again and then go straight into LW2.. take note of the huge gap in story direction there and why you have a new bunch of friends who you've never seen in any content prior..I have completed the personal story 11 times. I've run s2 more times than I can count. I've run this stuff many times as I have introduced my friends to the game. I do not need a lecture from you about the "impact" of this gap on the player, I am likely far more "impacted" than most.This is another contradictory point people bring up often, they claim LW1 would have to be reworked to be re-added back to the game and then claim it would be subpar content because LW1 sucks.If it has to be reworked then it won't be the same subpar content would it.They'd be able to improve it, the Dev's wouldn't make intentionally bad content just to be faithful to something that already needs significant reworks anyway, that would just be silly.And yet this is EXACTLY what happened with Visions of the Past.Developer resources were spent making 4 old missions playable again and they were awful.There was, at one point, a special team at Anet that put together "current events" material. They were responsible for some really great stuff like the Knight of the Thorn quest and Home Instance Cats. During the Icebrood Saga announcement, Anet alluded to the fact that this team was working on something special that would really surprise people. Turns out this is what they were doing... the resurrection of the S1 content as Visions.So instead of getting something cool like the Caladbolg quest we got 4 old instances, with awful fights told out of sequence in a way that did not satisfy the nostalgia needs of those clamoring for it and was forgotten by the rest of the playerbase no sooner than it released.Those examples are nothing more than examples on how some big parts of the first season could be reworked because they would need to be reworked in some way.The only point I was making with those examples is that the tools already exist to rework them into a playable form.. and that is not an opinion, it's a fact proven by the existence of things like DRM's and Client side NPC's and dialogue etc.My "understanding" of game development is completely irrelevant here, my point still stands.When you propose solutions wrapped in rhetoric about how easy it would be, your knowledge of the challenges of gamedev are absolutely relevant and salient.So you're saying all those players who openly admit they don't give a kitten about the game's story don't exist?..They do, you can find quite a few of them here on the forums.I'm not saying that at all. There are a significant number of people who see the story as "what the rewards I want are gated behind". There are plenty of people who see the first story instance of PoF as "how I get my raptor", see Season 2 as "easy Core Tyria Mastery points so I can make a legendary" and see Icebrood as "what I need to get access to the Drizzlewood Gold Farm".But these players are paying customers just like you and their presence and attitude only undermines your argument that this story gap needs to be addressed.There are thousands of players in WvW who don't give a damn about the story in this game and have never played a moment of it. Players who spend just as much money as you do in the gemstore.Some of them even come on these forums and talk about the neglect of their game mode with the exact same rhetoric as you use talking about the need to restore S1 or do a Core Tyria revamp. Talking about how irresponsible and damaging it is for Anet to neglect their personal desires.Anyway, Gw2 is a heavily story driven MMO.. that again is not an opinion, it's a fact.. there's no way anyone can play this game and disagree with that.It would be like saying Call of Duty isn't about war XDAnd here is the crux of it.... "you can't disagree with me"Sure I can.The story in this game may be important to you. It may be important to me. But there are plenty of people in this game who don't care or even seen it as an annoyance. There are thousands of people in WvW or sPvP who may never never touch the content.There are significant number of players who esc their way through the entire core story and sit there bored as hell through the exposition they cannot skip.Many of these people, in my experience, love this game just as much as you say you do.

The MMO industry is rife with stories of studios who tried to go all-in on story, who compromised other elements of the development cycle and who delivered a much stronger cohesive narrative than Anet has with their product.Ask Funcom how well that worked out for The Secret World, or check with EA about how this single minded focus worked out for SWTOR and how long they had to spend repairing the damage it did.Other studios have endlessly iterated on their base content instead of pushing forward with new stuff. Ask Paragon Studios how well that worked out for City of Heroes... oh wait.. you can't.While you may see this as a story driven MMO, there are plenty of people who do not see it that way. Many people are here for the gameplay/combat system. Some are here for the map exploration, and some are here for a more solid competitive experience than most MMOs provide.I'm willing to bet that the number of people who boost to 80 then skip all the way to Path of Fire for the mounts dwarfs the number of people who care about a few old instances in S1, and history has shown that MMOs who do not recognize this kind of reality do not tend to fare very well at all.

Doggie.3184 · April 12, 2021

@kharmin.7683 said:How many years has it been? And people are STILL clamoring for season 1? Enough already.

Well Anet did say they'd bring it back but apparently it's super difficult ;o

Other than that though, no need to go back on anything unless it's to bring back Ricochet to Thief Pistols. :) Or to undo raids and take the different fork in the road and make dungeons again instead. :) :)

mercury ranique.2170 · April 12, 2021

@Doggie.3184 said:
@kharmin.7683 said:How many years has it been? And people are STILL clamoring for season 1? Enough already.

Well Anet did say they'd bring it back but apparently it's super difficult ;o

Other than that though, no need to go back on anything unless it's to bring back Ricochet to Thief Pistols. :) Or to undo raids and take the different fork in the road and make dungeons again instead. :) :)

They actually stated that adapting it to current content types is very time consuming. They rather work on new content.

As for GW2 classic. No it would not work. Unlike other games, this one actually improved and it improved a lot. People would not want to go back.

Ashen.2907 · April 12, 2021

@"Teratus.2859" said:
Agreed.
LS1 was awful. I took an extended break from the game to reevaluate where to spend my gaming time in response to this content. It gave me the solid impression that the talent behind GW1 was gone.

None of that matters though, fact is this content is part of the game's story.

Just because it's not up to the same standards of new content doesn't mean it shouldn't be reintroduced to the game.. by that same logic we should just remove HoT and LW3 because they're "not up to the standards of new content" either.. who gives a kitten about players who've never played it before or are enjoying running Alt's through the story right?LW1 is part of this game.. it's part of this progressing story, doesn't matter how poor it may be in quality compared to newer stuff.It exists, so it should be replayable and if people don't want to play it then they can make the choice to skip it.. the choice to do so is what matters and atm nobody has that choice and we're all forced to skip content that some of us want to play.

Was. Did exist, not does exist. It isn't skipping the content if the content does not exist, and hasn't existed in many years. If you made the decision to not play it at the time it was active you already made your choice. Now that your choice has been made the ongoing choice is to spend development resources on the forward moving game rather than on its distant past.

Ashen.2907 · April 12, 2021

@Teratus.2859 said:
Anyway, Gw2 is a heavily story driven MMO.. that again is not an opinion, it's a fact.. there's no way anyone can play this game and disagree with that.

No, that is opinion. People play the game without interacting with the story. Personally I have lost any sense of what the story even is at this point. It has no place in driving the game for me. For some I, assume, the story is part of what drives the game. For others it is irrelevant.

Yasai.3549 · April 12, 2021

No.I love Heart of Thorns too much.

Teratus.2859 · April 12, 2021

I had a longer almost complete reply to your post but my power went out and I really can't be bothered to retype the entire thing again so for the sake of both our time i'll cut it down significantly.

@mindcircus.1506 said:
@"Teratus.2859" said:Obviously, I never said it would be easy.. I just said it's worth doing.You said... in as many words... that it was on the same level as paying for server space and bugfixing current playable content.I was just poking fun at the tired "standards" and "resource" arguments with an exaggerated statement.This is the first of many many backpeddals in your post. "I was just poking fun..", "that's not what I meant", "you are focussing on the wrong part of what I said".I'm not going to address them individually because I won't go down the rabbit hole with you playing semantics because reality does not fit your personal narrative.

Don't tell me what I meant in my own posts lolMy comparison was intentionally exaggerated and sarcastic.

If you don't think that's relevant then go complete the personal story again and then go straight into LW2.. take note of the huge gap in story direction there and why you have a new bunch of friends who you've never seen in any content prior..I have completed the personal story 11 times. I've run s2 more times than I can count. I've run this stuff many times as I have introduced my friends to the game. I do not need a lecture from you about the "impact" of this gap on the player, I am likely far more "impacted" than most.

At least you agree that it is a problem, that's more than some do.

This is another contradictory point people bring up often, they claim LW1 would have to be reworked to be re-added back to the game and then claim it would be subpar content because LW1 sucks.If it has to be reworked then it won't be the same subpar content would it.They'd be able to improve it, the Dev's wouldn't make intentionally bad content just to be faithful to something that already needs significant reworks anyway, that would just be silly.And yet this is EXACTLY what happened with Visions of the Past.Developer resources were spent making 4 old missions playable again and they were awful.There was, at one point, a special team at Anet that put together "current events" material. They were responsible for some really great stuff like the Knight of the Thorn quest and Home Instance Cats. During the Icebrood Saga announcement, Anet alluded to the fact that this team was working on something special that would really surprise people. Turns out this is what they were doing... the resurrection of the S1 content as Visions.So instead of getting something cool like the Caladbolg quest we got 4 old instances, with awful fights told out of sequence in a way that did not satisfy the nostalgia needs of those clamoring for it and was forgotten by the rest of the playerbase no sooner than it released.

Those visions were a small side project not on the same level that a LW1 rework would entail.I've no doubt that had a LW1 rework actually been in effect those instances would have been much improved.

But I agree they do fail to fill the intended role, that being the introduction of key important characters.The development of Canach, Rox and Braham over LW1 cannot be summed up in a single mission, it's not even enough to introduce them properly.

And on an added note, a massive number of the people playing Gw2 today were not around when LW1 was live.. they never got to play that content.So what maybe "old" content for some of us would be "new" content for a lot of people.

Those examples are nothing more than examples on how some big parts of the first season could be reworked because they would need to be reworked in some way.The only point I was making with those examples is that the tools already exist to rework them into a playable form.. and that is not an opinion, it's a fact proven by the existence of things like DRM's and Client side NPC's and dialogue etc.My "understanding" of game development is completely irrelevant here, my point still stands.When you propose solutions wrapped in rhetoric about how easy it would be, your knowledge of the challenges of gamedev are absolutely relevant and salient.

There you go misrepresenting again.I never said it would be easy.All I said was the tool's they can use to rework some of the content exists, which is true.

So you're saying all those players who openly admit they don't give a kitten about the game's story don't exist?..They do, you can find quite a few of them here on the forums.I'm not saying that at all. There are a significant number of people who see the story as "what the rewards I want are gated behind". There are plenty of people who see the first story instance of PoF as "how I get my raptor", see Season 2 as "easy Core Tyria Mastery points so I can make a legendary" and see Icebrood as "what I need to get access to the Drizzlewood Gold Farm".But these players are paying customers just like you and their presence and attitude only undermines your argument that this story gap needs to be addressed.There are thousands of players in WvW who don't give a kitten about the story in this game and have never played a moment of it. Players who spend just as much money as you do in the gemstore.

"Players who spend just as much money as you do in the gemstore."That is highly contestable lol I have spent a lot on this game over the years, and not just on my own account.

But it's also a moot point, how much money one puts into the game doesn't reflect how much they love the game.People have different views on the value of money and those views can vary monumentally person by person.There are people with tons of money and people with almost none and both can place very high value on money or very little.

Anyway how much you invest into the game should never be a major factor in "who" the developers pay more attention too.. as much as I want them to go and back and fix LW1 I would never want my financial contributions to this game to give my requests more importance over others.The amount of demand alone should be what's important and if that puts me in a minority then I'll accept that.But I will never stop asking for this even if I eventually end up being the only one left still asking for it, I will stick to my beliefs that this game will be better once all of it's content is playable to everyone.

Some of them even come on these forums and talk about the neglect of their game mode with the exact same rhetoric as you use talking about the need to restore S1 or do a Core Tyria revamp. Talking about how irresponsible and damaging it is for Anet to neglect their personal desires.

Well to be fair, they do have a point.WvW has been heavily neglected over the years.. and I agree with them, it does deserve more TLC than it gets.

Anyway, Gw2 is a heavily story driven MMO.. that again is not an opinion, it's a fact.. there's no way anyone can play this game and disagree with that.It would be like saying Call of Duty isn't about war XDAnd here is the crux of it.... "you can't disagree with me"Sure I can.

You really can't lol.. well ok technically you can but that would just make you wrong here.It's not my opinion you're trying to disagree with here, it's Anet's development model.Gw2 is a story focused MMO.. as blatantly evident by the last 8 years of living world and expansion content that's been added over everything else.Anet prioritises the story of GW2 when it comes to developing this game that makes it irrefutabley a story focused MMO.

The story in this game may be important to you. It may be important to me. But there are plenty of people in this game who don't care or even seen it as an annoyance. There are thousands of people in WvW or sPvP who may never never touch the content.There are significant number of players who esc their way through the entire core story and sit there bored as hell through the exposition they cannot skip.Many of these people, in my experience, love this game just as much as you say you do.

Well you don't know the person behind the screen anymore than I do.But again it's also a moot point, much like the money statements above, there's no way to actually prove who loves this game more so it's pointless even trying to debate something that silly.Not to mention it's absurdly petty and extremely juvenile.No matter how ignorant and immature all of us can be at times, we should all be above that at least.That kind of competition is literally on the same playground levels of "my dad can beat up your dad" XD

The MMO industry is rife with stories of studios who tried to go all-in on story, who compromised other elements of the development cycle and who delivered a much stronger cohesive narrative than Anet has with their product.Ask Funcom how well that worked out for The Secret World, or check with EA about how this single minded focus worked out for SWTOR and how long they had to spend repairing the damage it did.Other studios have endlessly iterated on their base content instead of pushing forward with new stuff. Ask Paragon Studios how well that worked out for City of Heroes... oh wait.. you can't.

None of those games are Gw2.

And if i'm not mistaken all of those games also share another major flaw that I have long criticized in the MMO genre and attributed as a death sentence for most of them.They were all originally designed with a mandatory subscription fee and were forced to drop it in a desperate effort to save themselves.

As i've said many many times.. the market simply cannot sustain hundreds of games that keep demanding you constantly pay them to play them.. this model is essentially the name of the crab zodiac sign to MMO's.. and I will stand by that statement until the day I die.. with a graveyard of dead or dying MMO's serving as proof of it.

Part of the reason the Guildwars franchise has not only survived but has also been very successful in this market is because it rejected that awful, anti-consumer model.It's playing by a whole different rulebook and a lot of people like it.

While you may see this as a story driven MMO, there are plenty of people who do not see it that way. Many people are here for the gameplay/combat system. Some are here for the map exploration, and some are here for a more solid competitive experience than most MMOs provide.

That was never a point of contention.But it doesn't change the fact that Anet focuses it's development of this game on the story.. ergo Gw2 is a story driven MMO.

I'm willing to bet that the number of people who boost to 80 then skip all the way to Path of Fire for the mounts dwarfs the number of people who care about a few old instances in S1, and history has shown that MMOs who do not recognize this kind of reality do not tend to fare very well at all.

I'd take that bet, specifically because you said "skip all the way to Path of Fire for the mounts" :PMost of the players that I see doing this are either new to the game or recent buyers of the expansions and they only do it for the raptor, they then go back to the core game to play it normally.. only with a mount to get around a bit faster and more importantly so that they can better get to and participate in events which can be a big struggle for people who don't have access to a mount due to the mobility gap mounts create.

This is actually one of the main reasons I have advocated multiple times for the Warclaw to be modified into the core game, not requiring an expansion to unlock so that it can serve as a introduction mount for people without the expansions, serve as a pretty high quality reward to work for and also as a big incentive for new players to go into WvW and try it out.Something that WvW desperately needs more of imo... people playing it.

There are also those running alt characters who want to test new builds or have some other reason for being in PoF and skipping over the story content.Them skipping it doesn't mean that they don't care about it, just means they don't want to do it in that moment or specifically on that character.Plenty who like the story of Gw2 don't run it though on every character.

Teratus.2859 · April 12, 2021

@Ashen.2907 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
Agreed.
LS1 was awful. I took an extended break from the game to reevaluate where to spend my gaming time in response to this content. It gave me the solid impression that the talent behind GW1 was gone.

None of that matters though, fact is this content is part of the game's story.

Just because it's not up to the same standards of new content doesn't mean it shouldn't be reintroduced to the game.. by that same logic we should just remove HoT and LW3 because they're "not up to the standards of new content" either.. who gives a kitten about players who've never played it before or are enjoying running Alt's through the story right?LW1 is part of this game.. it's part of this progressing story, doesn't matter how poor it may be in quality compared to newer stuff.It exists, so it should be replayable and if people don't want to play it then they can make the choice to skip it.. the choice to do so is what matters and atm nobody has that choice and we're all forced to skip content that some of us want to play.

Was. Did exist, not does exist. It isn't skipping the content if the content does not exist, and hasn't existed in many years. If you made the decision to not play it at the time it was active you already made your choice. Now that your choice has been made the ongoing choice is to spend development resources on the forward moving game rather than on its distant past.

A large number of people who play now never knew about the game back when LW1 was live, they never had that choice.

Blame them for that if you like but one of the things even a lot of veteran players have called out over the years is how poorly this game has been marketed and advertised.A very strong case could be made there that it's Anet's fault Gw2 has passed by so many people due to it's failures in this specific area.

@Ashen.2907 said:
@Teratus.2859 said:
Anyway, Gw2 is a heavily story driven MMO.. that again is not an opinion, it's a fact.. there's no way anyone can play this game and disagree with that.

No, that is opinion. People play the game without interacting with the story. Personally I have lost any sense of what the story even is at this point. It has no place in driving the game for me. For some I, assume, the story is part of what drives the game. For others it is irrelevant.

No it isn't.As I said to mindcircus, Anet's main focus on GW2 IS!! the story.. that makes GW2 a story driven MMO.Doesn't matter whether you or anyone else care's about the story or not, that fact still stands.

mindcircus.1506 · April 12, 2021

I'm going to keep my responses brief and then nope out of this thread as I have largely made my feedback on this issue clear.

@"Teratus.2859" said:At least you agree that it is a problem, that's more than some do.The people who disagree that this is a problem are not wrong. They are satisfied customers and you are not.No more, no less.Anyway how much you invest into the game should never be a major factor in "who" the developers pay more attention too.. as much as I want them to go and back and fix LW1 I would never want my financial contributions to this game to give my requests more importance over others.Any company that ignores where the bulk of it's customers spend money is doomed or lucky.You really can't lol.. well ok technically you can but that would just make you wrong here.It's not my opinion you're trying to disagree with here, it's Anet's development model.Your misuse of the term "development model" aside...Anet's system has always been to make the story largely skippable,A player can very easily buy this game, do the tutorial instance and level to the cap in open world. They can ignore the entire Personal Story, skip season 2 and never touch a story instance and still max out core tyria masteries and make Legendary items. Then can then do the first Episode of HoT, get gliding to unlock the masteries and then never touch another story instance. They can skip all of season 3 story content and with 6 teleport to friends get all the rewards other than a few cosmetics that can be picked up in competitive. They can then do the first episode of PoF and unlock mounts then again, completely ignore any and all story instance... the list goes on.A player can reach and particpate in the top tier endgame content having never seen more than the tutorial and the first story instance of HoT.It's very clear when looking at Season 4 and Icebrood that other issues than the story take precedence over the type of content created Both arcs culminate into a large open world meta gold farm. This is not because the story itself demanded it, but instead because it's what the majority of players wanted to keep happy and engaged with the title.Contrast that with a game like FF14 (which is indeed a Story Focused MMO) where any and all progress is gated behind the MSQ and it's actually pretty plain to see.Saying "my point stands", calling your opinions "irrefutable" and presenting what is clearly a personal perception as fact does not change reality.

The story in this game is largely optional. In a Story focused MMO like FF14 or Star Wars:The Old Republic it is not.

None of those games are Gw2.
And if i'm not mistaken all of those games also share another major flaw that I have long criticized in the MMO genre and attributed as a death sentence for most of them.They were all originally designed with a mandatory subscription fee and were forced to drop it in a desperate effort to save themselves.
As i've said many many times.. the market simply cannot sustain hundreds of games that keep demanding you constantly pay them to play them.. this model is essentially the name of the crab zodiac sign to MMO's.. and I will stand by that statement until the day I die.. with a graveyard of dead or dying MMO's serving as proof of it.
Part of the reason the Guildwars franchise has not only survived but has also been very successful in this market is because it rejected that awful, anti-consumer model.It's playing by a whole different rulebook and a lot of people like it.World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy 14 and ESO are all more successful games than this one. All of these games maintain a subscription fee and charge for regular boxed expansions. Ultima Online and Everquest still see regular updates that are, to this day funded by subscriptions. The MMO graveyard has far more titles in their F2P section than otherwise. The sub fee has little to do with it. If people see value in a sub, if they are having fun, they will pay it.

Calling that payment model "anti-consumer" after the way Arenanet monetized build templates?Cash grab visual progression that has eroded this game's aesthetic and is available only in the gem store?Mount Skins in gatcha boxes?Home instance gold farms like the Black Lion Hunters Board?Gemstore dye boxes that consistently award 5 common dyes worth 4s each?I have to think a sub fee would have been much better than all thatPainting a sub fee as "anti consumer" then applauding when a company lures players interested in visual progression into RNG loot boxes is laughable at best.

b k.1648 · April 12, 2021

@"Teratus.2859" said:None of those games are Gw2.
And if i'm not mistaken all of those games also share another major flaw that I have long criticized in the MMO genre and attributed as a death sentence for most of them.They were all originally designed with a mandatory subscription fee and were forced to drop it in a desperate effort to save themselves.
As i've said many many times.. the market simply cannot sustain hundreds of games that keep demanding you constantly pay them to play them.. this model is essentially the name of the crab zodiac sign to MMO's.. and I will stand by that statement until the day I die.. with a graveyard of dead or dying MMO's serving as proof of it.
Part of the reason the Guildwars franchise has not only survived but has also been very successful in this market is because it rejected that awful, anti-consumer model.It's playing by a whole different rulebook and a lot of people like it.World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy 14 and ESO are all more successful games than this one. All of these games maintain a subscription fee and charge for regular boxed expansions. Ultima Online and Everquest still see regular updates that are, to this day funded by subscriptions. The MMO graveyard has far more titles in their F2P section than otherwise. The sub fee has little to do with it. If people see value in a sub, if they are having fun, they will pay it.

Calling that payment model "anti-consumer" after the way Arenanet monetized build templates?Cash grab visual progression that has eroded this game's aesthetic and is available only in the gem store?Mount Skins in gatcha boxes?Home instance gold farms like the Black Lion Hunters Board?Gemstore dye boxes that consistently award 5 common dyes worth 4s each?I have to think a sub fee would have been much better than all thatPainting a sub fee as "anti consumer" then applauding when a company lures players interested in visual progression into RNG loot boxes is laughable at best.

Can't say I've played WoW or FF14, but ESO at least has a microtransaction store that is very similar to GW2's, and does not have a mandatory sub. I'd actually picked it up assuming they were going to ditch that one day, and once they did I had a much better game waiting for me. They've still got an optional sub that's skirting the boundaries of P2W, their mount skins and outfits are lazy by comparison to GW2, and both are contained in lootboxes which somehow manage to be even worse value for money, but the game's still enjoyable without all that. To my knowledge, WoW and FF14 both sell pricy microtransactions as well, on top of their subscription fees, but I don't know the details. The presence or absence of such things aren't why people play those games, though.

What makes service games successful is having something compelling to keep coming back to. ESO is built on a popular franchise and provides the opportunity to explore new (and revisit old) parts of it on a regular schedule. GW2's content drops in between expansions tend to be much more limited in scope, and they follow the same thread over multiple years, which might be a problem for players who don't find that thread particularly interesting.

Would Guild Wars 2 classic work?

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