Longbow could use an update/revision.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Not just use it, but for an immob setup with ranged control, it's one of the best weapons for such a thing. Yes, it's boring and one-dimensional, because its focused on exactly that purpose ... to keep you at ranged and plug away at your opponent. 

 

An immob setup with 'ranged control'...please, grace us with some videos of this? Because if someone is playing 'ranged control' immob, it'd be far better just to play what LB is actually good at and run ranged spiking.  

 

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

See. Obtena gets it. LB is a very focused and tailored weapon to do something very well, skirmish effectively at range. Greatsword is similar in that it's focus is to skirmish well in melee, hence why the two are so effective together. They cover all the gaps and offer strong damage, cc, and utility on each bar.

 

Sure they cover all the gaps.  Which is why most soulbeasts are spec'd for tanking and or running.  The ones that aren't always run in groups...I wonder why? 

 

See, just have to refer to my first point of 'the forums will justify LB being OP no matter what'.  

[Obtena.7952]

54 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

An immob setup with 'ranged control'...please, grace us with some videos of this?

You don't need videos of this ... it's obvious from the skills that Anet has given Lbow that this is the intent of the weapon. If that strategy works or not in competitive modes is a completely separate matter. If it's not a strategy that works for some people in competitive modes, then the answer isn't to load LBow up with damage and pretend it's 'fixed'. The answer is for those people to stop playing strategies that don't work for them ... assuming they were already getting everything out of the weapon it has to offer in the first place. 

 

I mean, what's happening here? People play strategies that don't work for them in competitive modes, then try to pass that off as a deficiency in a weapon. That's completely absurd. No, it's not a foregone conclusion the weapon is deficient or that the suggestions presented address that non-working strategy to begin with. The only way a weapon change is going to make ineffective strategies work in competitive game modes is to start pushing IWIN skills onto them. 

 

And before we go there ... no, not every weapon is a good performer in competitive modes ... and IF Lbow is one of those, it's certainly not a reason to change it. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

37 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

An immob setup with 'ranged control'...please, grace us with some videos of this? Because if someone is playing 'ranged control' immob, it'd be far better just to play what LB is actually good at and run ranged spiking.  

 

 

Sure they cover all the gaps.  Which is why most soulbeasts are spec'd for tanking and or running.  The ones that aren't always run in groups...I wonder why? 

 

See, just have to refer to my first point of 'the forums will justify LB being OP no matter what'.  

You obviously haven't fought a good ranger (of any spec) 1v1 then huh? You can't touch a good ranger. You can't out DPS a good ranger. Longbow + GS on ranger is one of the most balanced weapon combinations available on any class in the game. Both sets have CC, damage spikes, and utility. Soulbeasts themselves do not need to spec tanky. A full glass soulbeast can nuke anything from 100-0 from 1500 range away with no regard for self sustain, and only lose if they themselves f up the spike. However, because of how effective LB+GS is, especially on Soulbeast, Soulbeasts are able to spec tankier without dropping their own DPS too much and are able to play high damage builds with strong defense.

 

PPL run in groups sure, even thieves run in groups and gank together. Because its fun to play with other people, which is why we are all here isn't it? 

 

There are weapons in this game that need work for sure. MH dagger on Soulbeast being one, but LB on ranger is not one of them.

 

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

And before we go there ... no, not every weapon is a good performer in competitive modes ... and IF Lbow is one of those, it's certainly not a reason to change it. 

 

I don't even know what this means.  So if LB is only good for PvE then the solution is to avoid using it in competitive modes? That is...some interesting take right there.

 

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You obviously haven't fought a good ranger (of any spec) 1v1 then huh? You can't touch a good ranger. You can't out DPS a good ranger. Longbow + GS on ranger is one of the most balanced weapon combinations available on any class in the game. Both sets have CC, damage spikes, and utility. Soulbeasts themselves do not need to spec tanky. A full glass soulbeast can nuke anything from 100-0 from 1500 range away with no regard for self sustain, and only lose if they themselves f up the spike. However, because of how effective LB+GS is, especially on Soulbeast, Soulbeasts are able to spec tankier without dropping their own DPS too much and are able to play high damage builds with strong defense.

 

You can literally say this about most any class, you realize this right?

 

You can't touch a good staff mirage....

 

You can't touch a good daredevil...

 

etc.

 

I also don't know what untouchable rangers you know...care to share any with actual YT footage of never losing? 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Also since I've 'never fought a good ranger 1v1' here is a set of duels, one lose and one win:

 

 

This particular soulbeast had far more pressure from using axe than LB would ever give; they did use GS to great effect as well.  In fact, on the particular druid build I run LB is pretty meaningless since I can nullify the burst with staff 5 and barrage doesn't do very much in a 1v1--the only chance they'd have is trying to outrange but that would turn into your typical 'kite battle'--either they kite enough to hit a good burst or two, or I LoS enough and get them anyway.  

 

Also to reiterate, I'm not agreeing with the topic creator that LB needs damage buffs, I'm trying to prove a point that LB is effective but also very limited to surprise and +1 situations.  You can find better weapons for pretty much any other scenario (as seen here in the duel).  In that regard, LB could use a rework to fit better with the current state of things and get the 'pew pew' stigma out of people's minds.  

 

Also to cover the PvE base...does anyone actually run LB in high end content (i.e. raids)? I would think it wouldn't be very effective there since the pressure is super limited.  I see it used all the time in open world but I don't think that's a good indicator of literally anything.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Katary.7096]

13 hours ago, Panncakez.1290 said:

... Really? What else can it be? It doesn't have a single innate damaging condition. It doesn't pump out supportive boons to your allies. It doesn't have an abundance of powerful cc's outside one knockback on a hefty cooldown. I've described my gripes with barrage - it does deal alot of damage, but most of it goes to waste as anyone will just walk or roll out of it before the first hit will land.

It doesn't apply damaging conditions, therefore it can't be a condition damage weapon. It doesn't provide boons or healing to allies, so it is not a support weapon. It doesn't have an array of CC skills, meaning it is not a crowd control weapon. Its power damage output is lacking (according to you at least) yet you label it a power damage weapon. Do you not see that you are not being consistent here?

If I wanted to describe Ranger Longbow accurately, then I would call it a power damage and utility hybrid which controls the engagement. To give another example, I would also say Warrior Greatsword is a power damage and mobility hybrid, while Warrior Axes are the pure power damage weapons.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I don't even know what this means.  So if LB is only good for PvE then the solution is to avoid using it in competitive modes? That is...some interesting take right there.

 

 

You can literally say this about most any class, you realize this right?

 

You can't touch a good staff mirage....

 

You can't touch a good daredevil...

 

etc.

 

I also don't know what untouchable rangers you know...care to share any with actual YT footage of never losing? 

Who hurt your ranger?

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

I don't even know what this means.  So if LB is only good for PvE then the solution is to avoid using it in competitive modes? That is...some interesting take right there.

Except that's not my interesting take, it's yours. You already indicated you don't know what I was saying and it's evident. 

 

To be clear, I said if someone doesn't get good performance from something in competitive modes, they shouldn't use it. It's not a reason for Anet to change the something. 

 

Also to reiterate, I'm not agreeing with the topic creator that LB needs damage buffs, I'm trying to prove a point that LB is effective but also very limited to surprise and +1 situations. 

 

OK ... and LBow's limitations to those things isn't a problem that needs to be fixed if they are real. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[bigo.9037]

9 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Also since I've 'never fought a good ranger 1v1' here is a set of duels, one lose and one win:

 

 

This particular soulbeast had far more pressure from using axe than LB would ever give; they did use GS to great effect as well.  In fact, on the particular druid build I run LB is pretty meaningless since I can nullify the burst with staff 5 and barrage doesn't do very much in a 1v1--the only chance they'd have is trying to outrange but that would turn into your typical 'kite battle'--either they kite enough to hit a good burst or two, or I LoS enough and get them anyway.  

 

Also to reiterate, I'm not agreeing with the topic creator that LB needs damage buffs, I'm trying to prove a point that LB is effective but also very limited to surprise and +1 situations.  You can find better weapons for pretty much any other scenario (as seen here in the duel).  In that regard, LB could use a rework to fit better with the current state of things and get the 'pew pew' stigma out of people's minds.  

 

Also to cover the PvE base...does anyone actually run LB in high end content (i.e. raids)? I would think it wouldn't be very effective there since the pressure is super limited.  I see it used all the time in open world but I don't think that's a good indicator of literally anything.  

Everyone needs to specify if they are referring to spvp or wvw…I’m referring to wvw here.

 

Axe only works on very tanky setups as it lacks defensive skills and needs to be able to facetank more damage. Soulbeast is currently top tier roaming spec along with holo, scrapper and thief because of their high damage from range and good defensive rotation with gs. 
axe MH can be used but you’re gonna have a hard time with it cus if you use it instead of lb you have less range and less defense, or instead of gs you have 2 projectile sets and less defense. 
 

axe OH can be used in some builds in wvw but it is still worse than gs lb.

spvp is a different story tho. Lb kinda sucks there. 

 

 Whether or not slb can be “touched” just depends on what kinda stats you run and traitlines. Sure, ws bm slb with commanders and durability can live pretty much forever in a 1v1 but that doesn’t mean much if you can’t kill enemy either. Thief will still kill it tho. holo and scrapper beats it. Even heralds can at top tier gameplay can beat slb about 50% of 1v1s or close.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

To be clear, I said if someone doesn't get good performance from something in competitive modes, they shouldn't use it. It's not a reason for Anet to change the something. 

 

This is highly dependent on how good the person using it is at the class.  If they are a top tier player then if they aren't getting good performance, it is absolutely a reason to change the 'something'.

 

Anyway, I think we've proved that LB is effective but one-dimensional; that is, very niche in most game modes (ganking in WvW, open world in PvE, and not really used in PvP).

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 If they are a top tier player then if they aren't getting good performance, it is absolutely a reason to change the 'something'.

 

No it's not a reason to change something because that assumes that every weapon is intended to have high performance in every game mode. How do you know that's true? How does Anet assess who's a top tier player? What if top tier players don't agree if the performance is good or not? The whole idea that changing something is based on a highly subjective assessment of performance makes no sense. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

55 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No it's not a reason to change something because that assumes that every weapon is intended to have high performance in every game mode. How do you know that's true? How does Anet assess who's a top tier player? What if top tier players don't agree if the performance is good or not? 

 

Why would you want a weapon to have sub-par performance in any game mode? So your players get used to a weapon they like and try a different mode and all of a sudden it's sub-par so they are either forced to switch or stop playing? That doesn't seem like great marketing.

 

The rest is just balancing debate type questions.  You know who top tier players / teams are through data; in competitive it's win / loss related, and in PvE it's all about speed clearing.  You use the data itself to know if a weapon is underperforming.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Why would you want a weapon to have sub-par performance in any game mode?

Hold on ... no one said they want that, so stick to the points being made here. It's simply not a requirement to make every weapon a high performer in every game mode. It never has and it's actually typical ... if there are weapons that are high performers in every game mode, they are exceptions. 

 

Again, balance in PVE is NOT about speed clearing (because speed clearing tells us that a DPS spread for meta builds of 40% is OK? Big 🤣). That's absurd. I mean, PVE is no different in this regard ... there are weapons in PVE that aren't high performers either. I don't know where your view of the game comes from, but it's certainly not based on how the game actually works, that's for sure. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[kharmin.7683]

Not every weapon can be a high performance weapon anyway.  Process of elimination, some weapon will under perform when compared to all other weapons.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 6/28/2021 at 8:56 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Longbow is extremely one dimensional, but I don't think it needs a damage increase.  If barrage is troubling you, equip something that gives you quickness.

 

The only thing I'd like to see is hunter's shot give stealth regardless of if the arrow actually hits.  There's too many defenses in the game now to render it useless in most situations (and I don't call hitting ambient creatures nearby a 'fix') . 

True, but that's why you use it on the nearest clone/pet/NPC-acting player who isn't reflecting/blocking/dodging.

I like the dodge roll + stealth idea. The 2nd portion is obviously something to look at. And the stealth should be 3 seconds, max.

Edited June 30, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Abyssisis.3971]

I’d rather see changes to weapons other than longbow/greatsword.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... no one said they want that, so stick to the points being made here. It's simply not a requirement to make every weapon a high performer in every game mode. It never has and it's actually typical ... if there are weapons that are high performers in every game mode, they are exceptions. 

 

Again, balance in PVE is NOT about speed clearing (because speed clearing tells us that a DPS spread for meta builds of 40% is OK? Big 🤣). That's absurd. I mean, PVE is no different in this regard ... there are weapons in PVE that aren't high performers either. I don't know where your view of the game comes from, but it's certainly not based on how the game actually works, that's for sure. 

 

This is straying pretty far from the topic at this point, but what would you balance PvE around if not speed clearing? Completing high end fractals and raids are the endgame content for PvE, and completing fast is literally the name of the game in PvE for everything.  This is why you have karma trains and heart point trains and worldboss trains---because the aim is to knock them out as fast as possible to farm rewards as fast as possible.  

 

Any other take and I'd just think you are being facetious or possibly uninformed.  

 

To work this back around to the actual topic at hand, do you think LB is good for any of that? What use does a person standing at 1500 and using barrage or rapid fire do for anything PvE wise other than roleplay?

 

I mean with that amount of posts surely you've been around long enough to remember bearbow in PvE? And why it is memorable in that bots used longbow to tag things and the bear because it was the tankiest pet so they could just auto farm on maps? If there have been no revisions since then to the bow skills themselves, then wouldn't logically it still only be good in PvE for selfish reasons?

 

Is that really a weapon design worth keeping for almost a decade? I think that's the real question.  

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

This is straying pretty far from the topic at this point, but what would you balance PvE around if not speed clearing?

It doesn't matter what I would do ... what is relevant is how it's done by Anet and clearly, speed clearing has nothing to do with how they balance things. Lbow has an intent, and it's obvious a narrow focused one. IF that intent is actually a useful thing for it to do is a completely separate discussion. 

 

Is that really a weapon design worth keeping for almost a decade? I think that's the real question. 

 

Obviously Anet thinks it is and considering they are the ones that control game design, there isn't much point debating it. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[bigo.9037]

Rather than update LB I’d prefer having them take a look at MH axe, sword , MH dagger and torch. Why did WH get new update while weapons that were used even less got nothing?

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

I don't believe that ANet's design concept for GW2 was based on speed clearing.  /shrug

[Leonidrex.5649]

Until LB broken range gets fixed it shouldn't be even considered for any buffs.
When it starts hitting at it's proper ( 1500 ) range, then we can start thinking about adding SOME damage into it, and personally I like idea of hunters shot with a flip, stealth skill.
Even something as simple as after landing lb 3, you can use it again to launch 2 LB autos instead off 1, in turn increase it's cooldown somewhat. Most of the issues with the weapon comes from bugged range, and untill that gets changed any "reworks" or buffs will make it broken.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649

[Lazze.9870]

It's on the boring side, but it is functional and good. Wouldn't mind default percing like they do to "every" other bow except ranger ones these days. Normalising the range to 1200 could maybe promote some buffs in other areas for ranger.

 

Torch, sword, mh dagger, staff and the axes are in way more need of a proper update to at least one of their skills if not more.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Astralporing.1957]

On 6/29/2021 at 11:42 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

At this point, we can assume that people who continue to pretend they don't know what Lbow is about in this thread are doing so as a ruse to argue it's deficient. If Lbow should change, then it needs to be LESS effective at that single purpose, not more. The suggestions by the OP don't do that. 

That's the assumption you make by analyzing the skills. And it would have been pretty much spot on, if not for one single inconsistency - Barrage being a channeled attack that roots you in place. If you were right in your assumption about what devs intended for this weapon, barrage would have been a fire-and-forget type of skill instead.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's the assumption you make by analyzing the skills. And it would have been pretty much spot on, if not for one single inconsistency - Barrage being a channeled attack that roots you in place. If you were right in your assumption about what devs intended for this weapon, barrage would have been a fire-and-forget type of skill instead.

My assumption isn't wrong just because Barrage isn't fire and forget. It's got a stealth, a knockback, a cripple and 1500 range ... if that doesn't scream long range maintenance and control, nothing does. Barrage not being fire and forget doesn't change that. 

 

I mean, if you think my assumption is wrong, then just tell me what YOU think Anet's intent was with the Lbow. That's something we can talk about and it's something we can use as the basis of whether the OP's suggestions are reasonable or not. Just telling me I'm wrong doesn't do either of those things. OP's trying to paint the picture Lbow 'doesn't have a purpose' ... that's just a dishonest approach to convincing people it needs to change. 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zyreva.1078]

On 6/30/2021 at 11:52 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

To work this back around to the actual topic at hand, do you think LB is good for any of that? What use does a person standing at 1500 and using barrage or rapid fire do for anything PvE wise other than roleplay?

 

Nobody has to stand at 1500 range just because a longbow is equipped.

RF + Barrage offer great burst - lb is actually meta for power slb in short or quick phasing encounters in PvE (sustained dps is better with gs tho).

 

Ranger's LB is one of the better and more versatile weapons in the game with viability almost anywhere. There are plenty of weapons that are way more niche and limited in their use.

Edited July 12, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907