Marionette need be moved to be a raid or be nerfed.

[ugrakarma.9416]

This "content" need moved to raid or something, at point start requiring specific, strict builds to be beat inst more "open world content". 

 

At some point the LFG will be infested with same toxic old song that exists in T4 fractals or raids, "LF - Scourge"(or whatsover)..

 

Insta kills AoE mechanics + strict "everyone be sucessful on first try or the entire thing fail" is a raid level difficult.

 

INST even a matter of coordination, Triple Trouble requires extremy coordination, but doenst requires everyone on a "perfect build", also have a room for try/error learning curve.

 

the "nerf" they dont need touch on HP/Damage, just change the platform to solo champ phase..., even on T4 fractals or "hard" strike missions theres nothing like this, the Whisper of Jormag, the solo phase the foe is a paper.

 

[phokus.8934]

Your superfluous use of quotes incorrectly is testament to the people doing this encounter.

 

It is so ridiculously easy if people follow the simple mechanics but they'd rather be carried using their RP builds.

[Ayrilana.1396]

I’ve looked at the LFG and a random posting with someone requiring players to meet certain requirements in a squad that they created is far from toxic. You’re free to create your own squad, join another, or simply join the public instance when it is up. 
 

As for the meta itself, it’s fine so long as players actually CC the champs during the defense event and perform the mechanics specific to their lane’s boss. This meta doesn’t require anyone to play at raid level. The boss’ don’t have that much health. 
 

Assuming your group stays on top of the champs during the defense event, your map can fail the boss event up to three times. I would leave any squad considering quitting after failing one boss event as you’ll likely be wasting your time with them. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Ayrilana.1396

[Peanutz.3129]

Its not that hard

Its not Raid lvl

T4s are not Toxic (by the time you reach T4 you should know how your class and the encounter works.... if you jump straight to T4 and dont know kitten you deserve to get shittalked)

 

Just take 10 mins and read about the encounter. There are alot of videos explaining everything

If someone doesnt want to invest that little he/she should do something else.

Its literally one meta which you cant afk 1spam.

[Sobx.1758]

39 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

at point start requiring specific, strict builds

What are you even talking about, I'm doing it with ow builds with random squads.

Do I always succeed? Nope. Is it because of me or my build? Nope. So again: what are you even talking about right now? 😄 

 

22 minutes ago, Peanutz.3129 said:

If someone doesnt want to invest that little he/she should do something else.

Its literally one meta which you cant afk 1spam.

Yup, this is it, well said.

 

At this day people still can fail things like nuhoch lane in TD meta and it's certainly not because of the combat/build requirements, but because of laziness and attitude of "I press 1, I get rewards". Action mmorpg btw.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[zealex.9410]

1 hour ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

This "content" need moved to raid or something, at point start requiring specific, strict builds to be beat inst more "open world content". 

 

At some point the LFG will be infested with same toxic old song that exists in T4 fractals or raids, "LF - Scourge"(or whatsover)..

 

Insta kills AoE mechanics + strict "everyone be sucessful on first try or the entire thing fail" is a raid level difficult.

 

INST even a matter of coordination, Triple Trouble requires extremy coordination, but doenst requires everyone on a "perfect build", also have a room for try/error learning curve.

 

the "nerf" they dont need touch on HP/Damage, just change the platform to solo champ phase..., even on T4 fractals or "hard" strike missions theres nothing like this, the Whisper of Jormag, the solo phase the foe is a paper.

 

I get that you might bave failed this event like 10 times but no it doesnt require specific gear and builds, they can make it easier sure but whats required is onowing how the event works.

[Changer the Elder.2948]

First, I'd like to say I think the difficulty of the fight as it is is just fine. I love that we finally have (after seven years of those of us who remember the original) a beefy PVE fight that you need to actually pull your weight in instead of just AFKing at the waypoint and maybe hitting a few things to get contribution (I love Dragonstorm, but... yeah, it's loaded with that particular problem.)

 

It doesn't need to be nerfed per se, but I do agree that the current setup makes it extremely annoying to do with the private squad that caps the instance at 50 souls. Especially since the distribution is *extremely* uneven. It's true that the bosses are soloable, yes, and DPS checks are quite lenient, but say you have 7 people enter a portal (for any reason) instead of 10. instead of getting 2 full platforms and 3 soloers, you get 3 full plaforms, 1 soloer and 1 platform completely empty, making it that particular attempt literally impossible, with nothing you can do to help it except waiting helplessly for 2 minutes, which is never fun.

 

It would be prudent, I think, to either change how the platform distribution works to guarantee there's at least 1 person per platform before anything else, or allow platform hopping once your own boss is down.

 

As the event is now, the private instance is pretty much exclusively for large organized guilds that can guarantee both things: either people not leaving midway through/after 1 attempt (impossible) or guarantee new/inexperienced people cannot join (also impossible).

 

You can say "eee, you don't like it just because it's hard, just git gud scrub"; no, I love the event, I have all the achievements from the old one and I've been both killing and leading the new version.

However, you can be the godliest god among mere mortals to ever grace this game, but you need 49 other people to make things work. And unless you're very lucky in terms of pugs or you have 49 friends, you will always have a few who are new, a few who get RL aggro midway through the event (it's quite long) and a few who are still learning how their classes work. Problem is, with the way this event works, you're only allowed about 5 such people, and for each of those, you need 5 players who are proportionately high enough in their skill to cover for them. AND for such 5 lifesavers to be paired with those people only on their platforms. Which is simply not a thing in most pug groups, statistically.

 

Also it's really annoying that the event starts once *anyone* enters the instance. Literally every time you open up LFG, even if you write in block capitals "DO NOT ENTER INSTANCE IMMEDIATELY", there's gonna be that one triggerhappy skritt who will. Make it only spawnable by the commander on direct input inside the instance to allow ironing out kinks present in all pug groups.

 

Yes, people will learn the event, but it would need to be public for longer than a week for that to happen. If it stays this way, people will break their teeth a few times and then simply abandon the content because GW2 at this moment allows for much better ways to pass the time.

 

Also in terms of content, what GW needs (and what DS made possible) more of is ability to hotjoin content. To just feel like "Oh dunno, I want to do something, what's up?" and follow on that whim. You can do so with PVE events in general, which is awesome, but if you want to run something more difficult, more challenging, you need to do a little song and dance setup that usually takes as long or even longer than the actual run (pug raids, dungeons... now the marionette). In that sense alone, I would very much prefer the public instance over the private one.

[Tazer.2157]

MMO difficulty is a very good discussion. MMOs are played by a variety of people, many are older and gotten into the scene recently. So making content accessible to them would be in everyone's best interests. But nerfing content might not be the way to go about doing it. Instead, the game should ensure players have decent gear and understand basic game mechanics.

 

GW2 fails at this miserably. It does not teach the mechanics, nor does it prioritize gear during the leveling up process. Its excessively casual approach at letting the player doing whatever they want ends up in many players having zero knowledge about the game. 

 

The new player experience needs an update. There needs to be quests for new players that teach them the  game mechanics and give them a goal to get matching exotics by the time they are level 80. Also I think the difficulty in the core game needs an update. So much of it can be easily done in blue/green gear. Ensuring players stay and and experience the harder content will be beneficial long-term, but I doubt anything will be done. 

 

 

[Telgum.6071]

I remember when I started raiding. The hardest part of raiding is that: the start. You know nothing, training squads are a miracle if you find them, you 100% need a guild to start gaining LI each week.

 

Nothing of that applies to the current Marionette: defend your lane, go to the platform, kill the boss, kill the generator and then go back to defend the lane. The bosses I've met on those platforms are just average if you dodge and read what they do. If you expect them to be post 75% HP Tequatl yeah, you will find them extremely hard to beat. 

 

To me is more like you are just a bad player. sorry if it's offensive but that's the only explanation if you think this event is raid level.

 

1 hour ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

"everyone be sucessful on first try or the entire thing fail"

As long as is balanced I don't mind this. In fact I prefer it like that, is added pressure and forces you to be good at it. Way better that this +20 minutes Dragonstorm event that can't be failed but it just spamming attacks until the champions fall.

 

_________

 

Quote

The new player experience needs an update. There needs to be quests for new players that teach them the  game mechanics and give them a goal to get matching exotics by the time they are level 80. Also I think the difficulty in the core game needs an update. So much of it can be easily done in blue/green gear. Ensuring players stay and and experience the harder content will be beneficial long-term, but I doubt anything will be done. 

This message from  @Tazer.2157 is so true and probably one of the main reasons players find events like the Twisted Marionette hard. No ingame explanations, no teaching, nothing outside the chest trap that teaches you to dodge. Your are forced to learn through external videos or wikipedia, if you don't find people who teaches you.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[Changer the Elder.2948]

4 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Nothing of that applies to the current Marionette: defend your lane, go to the platform, kill the boss, kill the generator and then go back to defend the lane. The bosses I've met on those platforms are just average if you dodge and read what they do. If you expect them to be post 75% HP Tequatl yeah, you will find them extremely hard to beat. 

 

To me is more like you are just a bad player. sorry if it's offensive but that's the only explanation if you think this event is raid level.

You're ignoring the main problem. You can do everything perfectly. You can be the best player ever, you can flawlessly execute both mechanics and rotations and even solo your warden without a problem.

 

But you need at least 48 people to do the same. It's not your skill that's the problem, it's herding a squad, while on an extremely tight forced timer, to perform the same quality as you do. That's why large scale content has margin of error. If it doesn't, you need an organized guild.

 

But sure, it's much easier to say "oh you're just a bad player, get good and all your problems are solved if you dodge and read what bosses do".

Edited July 14, 2021 by Changer the Elder.2948

[Telgum.6071]

1 minute ago, Changer the Elder.2948 said:

But you need at least 48 people to do the same. It's not your skill that's the problem, it's herding a squad to perform the same quality as you do. That's why large scale content has margin of error. If it doesn't, you need an organized guild.

Ok, and what is the problem with that?

[Arewn.2368]

Every player in ffxiv is able to complete dungeon and raid bosses.

This is because the regular, easy, required content still none-the-less pushes the players to engage.

 

If we see threads like this every time they add something that requires the slightest bit of comprehension and thought in play (such as marionette), and anet caves and dumbs the content down, then the player base will never learn.

 

Give it a couple days. I'm sure people will catch on and start understanding the mechanics. That's usually how these things go.

Once we reach that critical mass where enough player understand, then the few that are still dying won't be enough to fail the entire event.

 

Edit: A bit more flexibility against unaidable failure wouldn't hurt. But I'm opposed to any sort of nerf. This is middling difficulty at most, and we need more of this content in order for the player base to improve.

Also, success rates are already improving. Who would have guessed you have to wait more then 24 hours for the player base to learn a new encounter.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Arewn.2368

[Changer the Elder.2948]

2 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Ok, and what is the problem with that?

It adds an unnecessary amount of faffing about to a game that could do with more hotjoin options.

I love the Marionette fight, I'm more than happy to teach people to do it, but if I log into the game with my limited time on this Earth and ask myself "what do I feel like doing?", it's way easier to look at a timer and go "oh look, Marionette is starting, people will convene there, I can teach a few of them if needs be and we'll have fun", then go "Okay, so I need to start a LFG for fifty people then wait for that to fill up, then spend time explaining things and then pray to all the gods that people will pull it off first time or the next attempt will reset the progress with people just dropping out and new people requiring new explanations pouring in."

 

You may be the equivalent of a saint who will do the latter and call it fun; I won't and most people won't either.

 

LFG fills immediately now, because it's new and shiny and because people need achievements, and it's still a pain in the various body places to get everyone to listen; that interest will die down and it will take a LOT of time just to get all the places set up; just look at squads at world bosses today; they're generally doable with fewer people as the skill/power creep goes up. The way this event is designed negates that theorem, because of the way the platforms fill. You simply won't be able to achieve this with any fewer than 50 people, because the event will *fail*, even if all the 35 guys you scramble together are absolutely divine in terms of player skill.

 

And with all that... even though I love the fight and would like to do it again at some point, I will not spend 2 hours setting it up when I can have fun instead in the meantime. The fight should be where the difficulty lies, not the faffery upfront.

[radda.8920]

no players just need to be patient and learn to master the mechanics, yes i know the average gw2 player doesn't understand that content can be missed multiple times. But yes it exists in several mmos and that's what makes things motivating to succeed

 

it has everything except the level of a raid, it's ridiculous to compare these two contents.

I don't think you've ever been in a raid in your life to say that

 

Several years ago, we had much more complicated world bosses ... tequalt and triple trouble took days and days to be successful while the puppet was already successful by a lot of groups yesterday evening ^^

Edited July 14, 2021 by radda.8920

[Changer the Elder.2948]

10 minutes ago, Arewn.2368 said:

Every player in ffxiv is able to complete dungeon and raid bosses.

This is because the regular, easy, required content still none-the-less pushes the players to engage.

 

If we see threads like this every time they add something that requires the slightest bit of comprehension and thought in play (such as marionette), and anet caves and dumbs the content down, then the player base will never learn.

 

Give it a couple days. I'm sure people will catch on and start understanding the mechanics. That's usually how these things go.

Once we reach that critical mass where enough player understand, then the few that are still dying won't be enough to fail the entire event.

 

Respectfully, as an XIV veteran; there's a HUGE difference between running in content for 4 or 8 people where you can teach and learn and if someone drops, you find a replacement immediately through the roulette system, and between running a teaching run for bleeping 50 that can only get replenished manpower through a passive LFG. And even in XIV and the content you mention, there's a fair amount of carrying in terms of DPS skips and overhealing.

 

This event allows for neither; there's virtually no way you as an experienced player can help. See the difference?

Edited July 14, 2021 by Changer the Elder.2948

[Zaxares.5419]

Overall I kind of like the difficulty of the Marionette fight. There's just two things that I think need to be tweaked for it to be perfect. Firstly, either the squad size for the Private instance needs to be raised, or the Public (with higher player limits) needs to stay. A maximum of 50 people means 10 people per lane, or just 2 per platform. That makes it very, VERY risky in case one platform happens to have a stroke of bad luck and both people down at once.

 

Secondly, there really ought to be a way for platforms that have finished their fight to go and directly assist their neighbours. I'm thinking something like once your generator is destroyed, you can hop over to the adjacent platform(s) and assist in their fight. This means that for a lane to fail, EVERYBODY must suck. Currently if a platform or two fail you instantly know who are the guilty culprits and I don't think that breeds a very positive atmosphere for what's, fundamentally, supposed to be a World Boss fight. (What's more, this singular point of failure also makes it very susceptible to griefers and trolls who DELIBERATELY fail their platform in order to ruin the entire squad's experience. I haven't seen this happen yet, but I KNOW it's only a matter of time.)

[Boogiepop Void.6473]

I've been commenting on this sine release and it all comes down to the same problem: Lowering the number of expected players per run of the event from 125-150 to 50 hard cap without changing the mechanics significantly does not work. They can either find a way to increase the cap (preferably by making it a proper world boss on the actual map) or they can redesign things so the event is not so susceptible to technical issues such as empty platforms due to having the exact mimumum number of people needed to complete as the maximum number who can participate as well.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

This "content" need moved to raid or something, at point start requiring specific, strict builds to be beat inst more "open world content". 

 

At some point the LFG will be infested with same toxic old song that exists in T4 fractals or raids, "LF - Scourge"(or whatsover)..

 

Insta kills AoE mechanics + strict "everyone be sucessful on first try or the entire thing fail" is a raid level difficult.

 

INST even a matter of coordination, Triple Trouble requires extremy coordination, but doenst requires everyone on a "perfect build", also have a room for try/error learning curve.

 

the "nerf" they dont need touch on HP/Damage, just change the platform to solo champ phase..., even on T4 fractals or "hard" strike missions theres nothing like this, the Whisper of Jormag, the solo phase the foe is a paper.

 

 

Maybe give it more than a day?  If I can solo the split in trailblazer gear without ever having seen it before, I doubt you need a full on raid-worthy benchmark to succeed here.  The reason for failure likely has more to do with relying on 74 other players who haven't seen this content yet.

[Omega.6801]

Nah, Marionette is fine. No need for minmax'd builds, particular classes or anything.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

7 minutes ago, lokh.2695 said:

Nah, Marionette is fine. No need for minmax'd builds, particular classes or anything.

some form of good gear is needed atleast for the lanes... else ull be the only one dpsing the champs and if all others have a bear bow build and they will stay alive and all.. pewpewing from a distance, kiting and dodging and everything... , the champs would easily reach the portals and the aether cannon would reach 100% soon and u all will fail the event.. as the evnt progresses, u get more champs  spawn in lane.. ive seen 3 champs spawning one after the other in lane if they all are clumped, we can cleave thru them all at the same time.. but if they spawn with a delay, or one is ccd and other is left alone, it maintainsa distance between the cleave radius... it'd be really bad

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, Changer the Elder.2948 said:

You're ignoring the main problem. You can do everything perfectly. You can be the best player ever, you can flawlessly execute both mechanics and rotations and even solo your warden without a problem.

 

But you need at least 48 people to do the same. It's not your skill that's the problem, it's herding a squad, while on an extremely tight forced timer, to perform the same quality as you do. That's why large scale content has margin of error. If it doesn't, you need an organized guild.

 

But sure, it's much easier to say "oh you're just a bad player, get good and all your problems are solved if you dodge and read what bosses do".

The timer is not tight at all if you mean the wardens. If anything staying alive is harder than doing enough dps. You could also just use trailblazer and faceroll. Its simple. If you think the timer is short or hp too high your build is just bad.

Maybe this is a wakeup call for the "play how i want" crowd. They complain about high hp of story bosses aswell though so i doubt it. The content requires at least 25 decent players knowing how to press buttons. The hardest part of the event are the wardens and only the 5th is a bit challenging for some builds.

But its the same as back in 2012. The majority runs their own builds which do 0 damage or/and have low cleave.

[Puck.3697]

I walked in with 0 idea what to do. And I pieced it together In a few moments. Even did it on a proffession I didn't know how to play. Or is even remotely close to well geared. 

 

This event isn't hard. And this doesn't remotely require "perfect builds" either lol. You can do this event easily on a bad build. You can even raid on a bad build and be top DPS. 

 

The DPS ceiling is like 41k..... Content is build for like a 18k DPS parse. Litterally. Core elementalist a very known weak build could over perform in this fight.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Ashantara.8731]

5 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

This "content" need moved to raid or something, at point start requiring specific, strict builds to be beat inst more "open world content".

 

Sorry, but: are you serious!?

 

If by "specific builds" you mean builds of each profession that actually deal decent damage, which is a good idea for any content by the way (unless you enjoy wasting time and wallowing in frustration from dying and not getting anything down even in story missions), then yes, it does require "certain builds".

 

Comparing the Marionette to raids, however, is ridiculous. I think you've never been in a raid if you truly think that this level of difficulty compares.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[Soulsignnuub.2098]

This doesn't need a nerf.

 

I would say that allowing platforms that killed their champions to hop to others is a good addition. I've tried 4 times today, failed all 4 because one platform didn't have any players. Sometimes this is due to no brains just staying in lane other times i've had 3 or even 4 people on my platform and other platforms completely empty. We stood there watching the champ stand there in the middle undefeated for over a minute and a half. 

 

 

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

 

Sorry, but: are you serious!?

 

If by "specific builds" you mean builds of each profession that actually deal decent damage, which is a good idea for any content by the way (unless you enjoy wasting time and wallowing in frustration from dying and not getting anything down even in story missions), then yes, it does require "certain builds".

 

Comparing the Marionette to raids, however, is ridiculous. I think you've never been in a raid if you truly think that this level of difficulty compares.

 

 

Tbh itd be less laughable if it was even on the ground level true. 

 

You can build a auto attack weaver build that sits in one element which would do enough DPS for this fight. Contents built to be done with a bunch of 16k dpsers. While the DPS ceiling on most proffessions sit around 40k.. 

 

You don't even need to do decent DPS... U just have to be able to play your proffession at like a 30 percentile parses and you'd do this event easily