Legendary armor by pve exploration [Merged]

[Astralporing.1957]

30 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The question you should be asking yourself is not if you enjoy raids per se, but rather:"would I have met this group of people I enjoy spending time with over other content?"

Yes. Definitely. I do not choose friends based on the content i play.

 

30 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Most content in this game is fun because of the other players in it, especially once "farmed" for hundreds or more hours.

The problem with raids is that in this case (for me at lest) the content is never fun, and it actually diminishes the fun of playing it with friends. The fun parts are completely not content-related.

 

[Tyncale.1629]

I would love this but I doubt it is going to happen.  Let us face it, there IS a PvE method for obtaining Leggy Armor, I just do not like the method (Raids). 

 

I am hoping Anet will throw us a bone concerning Legendary Rings though, keeping my fingers crossed. 

[Tyncale.1629]

23 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

A strike mission legendary armor set would be great. They said, that the strike missions will have several difficulties. Maybe the most difficult version will have a path for a legendary armor. 

Strike Missions also have become Elitist content, with all the Li-req nonsense you see in LFG.  Maybe they could add a currency to the EoD Strike missions, needed for Leggy Armor, where you earn 5x as much when you do them on the hardest setting. I could live with that.  

 

So it would take me 5x as much time as someone who "learned to play" but somehow I think some of those  Elitists  would still not be content, they would rather see a majority of people being completely barred from certain rewards.  

Edited August 16, 2021 by Tyncale.1629

[yoni.7015]

16 minutes ago, Tyncale.1629 said:

Strike Missions also have become Elitist content, with all the Li-req nonsense you see in LFG.  Maybe they could add a currency to the EoD Strike missions, needed for Leggy Armor, where you earn 5x as much when you do them on the hardest setting. I could live with that.  

 

So it would take me 5x as much time as someone who "learned to play" but somehow I think some of those  Elitists  would still not be content, they would rather see a majority of people being completely barred from certain rewards.  

Then do strike missions with your guild or with friends. Still there are a lot of groups that don’t require LI. 

[Tyncale.1629]

1 hour ago, yoni.7015 said:

Then do strike missions with your guild or with friends. Still there are a lot of groups that don’t require LI. 

I understand your answer but I am a big fan of groupcontent where people can easily tag along. GW has done this well with their Meta's and DE's and also the Public group option usually works well for easier content.  Warhammer Online also had a great system and I think more MMO's have this now.  Guilds feel restrictive to me. I may give it a go though.  🙂 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Tyncale.1629

[yann.1946]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. Definitely. I do not choose friends based on the content i play.

 

This answer just tellsme you either dont understand the question or dont understand how socializing works. You can only become friends with people if 

A) Your doing the same thing and 

B) You comunicate atleast.

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 8/15/2021 at 5:33 AM, lokh.2695 said:

The amount of open world PvE needed to be on par with what is required for armor in Raids/WvW/PvP would be so high we would have endless threads complaining about it. I doubt the people who open this topic every two weeks are aware of that.

 

I'm not opposed to the idea, but this is a valid point.  WvW armor is essentially a participation award + a ton of materials.  But it's nearly half a year of putting in significant amounts of time in the game mode every week to get a full set of legendary armor.  I shudder to think of how that would translate into open world PvE.

[mindcircus.1506]

1 hour ago, Tyncale.1629 said:

Strike Missions also have become Elitist content, with all the Li-req nonsense you see in LFG. 

 

An LI requirement makes the team elitist, not the content.

Anyone can start a strike squad and do them.

 

People who don't want to play with you aren't making an effort to bar you from certain rewards.

They just don't want to play with you.

Edited August 16, 2021 by mindcircus.1506

[Astralporing.1957]

20 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

This answer just tellsme you either dont understand the question or dont understand how socializing works. You can only become friends with people if 

A) Your doing the same thing and 

B) You comunicate atleast.

In theory, yes. In practice, that "same thing" needs to be much wider than just a very narrow activity. You may have a pleasant talk with strangers on a train, but they won't become your friends.

[mindcircus.1506]

Dulicate post

Edited August 16, 2021 by mindcircus.1506

[Cyninja.2954]

28 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

I'm not opposed to the idea, but this is a valid point.  WvW armor is essentially a participation award + a ton of materials.  But it's nearly half a year of putting in significant amounts of time in the game mode every week to get a full set of legendary armor.  I shudder to think of how that would translate into open world PvE.

 

Good point. Let's do some math based on time needed for WvW legendary armor and translate that to PvE.

 

Clearing Diamond chest in WvW depends on how many pips a player generates per tick (5 minutes) and can vary depending on WvW rank (anywhere between 8-24 hours give or take). Let's assume an average 14 hours per week for simplicity sake.

 

14 hours per week translates to 2 hours per day of "meaningful" pve content. World bosses are approximately on 15 minutes timers, with overlapping events from expansions. As such, using this time-frame as reference, that would amount to 8 world bosses per day. 

 

Legendary armor from WvW takes around 22 - 29 weeks per full set. Let's assume 24 weeks per full "open world" set for simplicity sake.

 

24 weeks are 168 days, which amounts to 1,344 world bosses per set minimum. Time gated, which means you don't get to kill 20 bosses on 1 day, then skip it the next. So, how many players who want open world legendary armor have actually completed some of the already existing world boss achievements of similar nature? 100 golden city being one of the most harmless. Anyone done with 50 strikes? What about 10 times Marionette? We are talking half a year of daily 2 hours minimum here of doing only this.

 

Not factored here are things like:

- the WvW armor already taking vastly longer compared to Spvp or PvE (likely to balance for how it is acquired, Spvp is heavier time gated)

- Spvp and WvW armors (and to some extent PvE) intentionally designed around getting players into that content

- Spvp and WvW armors being cheaper than their PvE raid counterpart (again, to encourage players to try these modes and reflect the reduced gold/hour players can make compared to PvE)

 

So let's factor for this as well and it is not unrealistic to assume:

- around 2,688 world boss kills required per armor set (I simply doubled the number)

- around 3,000 gold per set (around 20% above the raid legendary armor cost wise), approximately where legendary runes are at now

- a ton of time gating to top all of this off

 

and that is working within the current system, drawing some basic parallels.

 

Now I am sure a lot of players will suddenly jump on this idea claiming how they would do all this in a heart beat. Yet I wonder how many would eventually pull it off.

 

I smell a repeat of the precursor crafting situation: players assuming something will be a lot easier or more accessible to them, only to be disappointed that the effort or cost might be the same, or even higher than the already existing systems .

 

If you are this into the game, you likely would have found a way to make the existing systems work for you and only a small niche of players remains which are this hardcore AND haven't found a way to get their legendary armor.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Dante.1763]

5 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Good point. Let's do some math based on time needed for WvW legendary armor and translate that to PvE.

 

Clearing Diamond chest in WvW depends on how many pips a player generates per tick (5 minutes) and can vary depending on WvW rank (anywhere between 8-24 hours give or take). Let's assume an average 14 hours per week for simplicity sake.

 

14 hours per week translates to 2 hours per day of "meaningful" pve content. World bosses are approximately on 15 minutes timers, with overlapping events from expansions. As such, using this time-frame as reference, that would amount to 8 world bosses per day. 

 

Legendary armor from WvW takes around 22 - 29 weeks per full set. Let's assume 24 weeks per full "open world" set for simplicity sake.

 

24 weeks are 168 days, which amounts to 1,344 world bosses per set minimum. Time gated, which means you don't get to kill 20 bosses on 1 day, then skip it the next. So, how many players who want open world legendary armor have actually completed some of the already existing world boss achievements of similar nature? 100 golden city being one of the most harmless. Anyone done with 50 strikes? What about 10 times Marionette? We are talking half a year of daily 2 hours minimum here of doing only this.

 

Not factored here are things like:

- the WvW armor already taking vastly longer compared to WvW or PvE (likely to balance for how it is acquired)

- Spvp and WvW armors (and to some extent PvE) intentionally designed around getting players into that content

- Spvp and WvW armors being cheaper than their PvE raid counterpart (again, to encourage players to try these modes and reflect the reduced gold/hour players can make compared to PvE)

 

So let's factor for this as well and it is not unrealistic to assume:

- around 2,688 world boss kills required per armor set (I simply doubled the number)

- around 3,000 gold per set (around 20% above the raid legendary armor cost wise), approximately where legendary runes are at now

- a ton of time gating to top all of this off

 

and that is working within the current system, drawing some basic parallels.

 

Now I am sure a lot of players will suddenly jump on this idea claiming how they would do all this in a heart beat. Yet I wonder how many would eventually pull it off.

 

I smell a repeat of the precursor crafting situation: players assuming something will be a lot easier or more accessible to them, only to be disappointed that the effort or cost might be the same, or even higher than the already existing systems.

I mean i would for medium and heavy sets. Sure its alot, but its alot of stuff in a mode i enjoy, doing content i enjoy. No different than wvw/pvprs working on their armor. 🙂

[Cyninja.2954]

2 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

I mean i would for medium and heavy sets. Sure its alot, but its alot of stuff in a mode i enjoy, doing content i enjoy. No different than wvw/pvprs working on their armor. 🙂

 

Which would make sense. The fastest way to get multiple sets is currently to work on multiple sets from different game modes, and this would simply be another way to work on a set.

 

I'm also not saying no one would do this. I literally just whipped up some numbers for people to read and consider as to WHAT could be involved as an easier point of reference.

 

I would genuinely be interested in knowing how many players would take this route.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Dante.1763]

3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Which would make sense. The fastest way to get multiple sets is currently to work on multiple sets from different game modes, and this would simply be another way to work on a set.

 

I'm also not saying no one would do this. I literally just whipped up some numbers for people to read and consider as to WHAT could be involved as an easier point of reference.

 

I would genuinely be interested in knowing how many players would take this route.

Id at least be willing to wager it would end up being higher than the current % of folks who have envoy armor, in the long run.

 

But we wont ever know unless it gets added.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

 

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Good point. Let's do some math based on time needed for WvW legendary armor and translate that to PvE.

 

Clearing Diamond chest in WvW depends on how many pips a player generates per tick (5 minutes) and can vary depending on WvW rank (anywhere between 8-24 hours give or take). Let's assume an average 14 hours per week for simplicity sake.

I'm not so sure about assuming 14 hours, but more on that later.

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

14 hours per week translates to 2 hours per day of "meaningful" pve content. World bosses are approximately on 15 minutes timers, with overlapping events from expansions. As such, using this time-frame as reference, that would amount to 8 world bosses per day. 

Yes. Or 1 to 8 mapwide meta events, some of which can be world boss events (depending on event - Dragon's stand or full drizzlewood meta cycle are "worth" way more than one Tarir or Gerent, so should offer more progress towards the goal).

 

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Legendary armor from WvW takes around 22 - 29 weeks per full set. Let's assume 24 weeks per full "open world" set for simplicity sake.

Ok.

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

24 weeks are 168 days, which amounts to 1,344 world bosses per set minimum.

Or 168 to 1344 map metaevents.

 

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Time gated, which means you don't get to kill 20 bosses on 1 day, then skip it the next.

Actually you probably should be able to do that. WvW reward track is timegated,. but on ona  daily, but weekly basis. Same with SPvP track and Raid tokens, so the OW path should probably be also timegated in a weekly, not daily cycle.

So, we're talking about 7 to 56 metaevents weekly.

 

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

So, how many players who want open world legendary armor have actually completed some of the already existing world boss achievements of similar nature? 100 golden city being one of the most harmless.

Individually, per specific event, not many - but if you add all those together (again, remembering that things like Dragon's stand are worth multiple smaller events), i guess you would see a lot of players with similar numbers.

 

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Anyone done with 50 strikes? What about 10 times Marionette? We are talking half a year of daily 2 hours minimum here of doing only this.

And? What seems to be a problem? As long as you won't limit it to doing a single boss/meta, but allow most of those to count (to mirror the WvW situation) , it would be perfectly allright.

 

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Not factored here are things like:

- the WvW armor already taking vastly longer compared to WvW or PvE (likely to balance for how it is acquired)

I assume you meant SPvP instead of second WvW (and Raids when you said PvE)

 

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

- Spvp and WvW armors (and to some extent PvE) intentionally designed around getting players into that content

- Spvp and WvW armors being cheaper than their PvE raid counterpart (again, to encourage players to try these modes and reflect the reduced gold/hour players can make compared to PvE)

 

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

So let's factor for this as well and it is not unrealistic to assume:

- around 2,688 world boss kills required per armor set (I simply doubled the number)

Why would you double it (or increase it at all) when you already admitted it is the longest path? And when you actually require a bigger engagement than in WvW, where you don't really have to assault keeps, and can do away with killing yaks and flipping camps for a large part of the daily work?

 

Also, one thing i already mentioned is that the 14 hours you use as basis is... debatable. What you silently ignored is the massive difference in WvW between players that are new to content [~22 hours], and top tier veterans [~9h]. With the additional time increases brought to you by commanding, being on a winning server, and/or being outnumbered (especially that one can significantly accelerate the progress)

 

So, you should probbaly consider that players that are very invested in doing OW content should probably have to do half the number you originally calculated. Not twice.

 

9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

- around 3,000 gold per set (around 20% above the raid legendary armor cost wise), approximately where legendary runes are at now

20% more seems reasonable, but most likely it would come as additional collections in the gen2 tier 2 collection mat sink style - and those should likely replace some of the event completion requirements.

 

Overall, though (with the caveats i mentioned), it does seem to be reasonable.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

18 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

I'm not so sure about assuming 14 hours, but more on that later.

Yes, I was keeping it low given how to get below 14 hours per week one needs to have already been invested somewhat in WvW beforehand.

Quote

Yes. Or 1 to 8 mapwide meta events, some of which can be world boss events (depending on event - Dragon's stand or full drizzlewood meta cycle are "worth" way more than one Tarir or Gerent, so should offer more progress towards the goal).

Map metas are no 2 hours. Not even Drizzlewood is after the massive reworks (and it was around 1h10m beore). I'd give map metas at most 30 minutes, and that is being generous given the amount of people afking through parts of them. Even WvW requires you to actually do something every 5-10 minutes.

Quote

 

Ok.

Or 168 to 1344 map metaevents.

 

Actually you probably should be able to do that. WvW reward track is timegated,. but on ona  daily, but weekly basis. Same with SPvP track and Raid tokens, so the OW path should probably be also timegated in a weekly, not daily cycle.

So, we're talking about 7 to 56 metaevents weekly.

Sure, it could be worked into a weekly cycle. Also means that you lose all possibility to progress a past week if you missed out on a week (versus missing per day). Similar to WvW.

Quote

 

Individually, per specific event, not many - but if you add all those together (again, remembering that things like Dragon's stand are worth multiple smaller events), i guess you would see a lot of players with similar numbers.

I was sticking to world bosses to keep it simple.

 

Sure, we can discuss Dragon's Stand. A decent one takes 40 minutes tops on an active map. Ones with less active players or players who are wasting time can take 60-80 minutes or fail. Again, this is meaningful PvE contribution at the least expected.

Quote

And? What seems to be a problem? As long as you won't limit it to doing a single boss/meta, but allow most of those to count (to mirror the WvW situation) , it would be perfectly allright.

WvW is limited to keeping participation up. This would be limited to sensible open world content. Again, I was using meta bosses to keep it simple. If more progress can be made within a 2 hour time period, the "amount" of bosses we are calculating for would be upped to remain par.

Quote

I assume you meant SPvP instead of second WvW (and Raids when you said PvE)

Yes, I corrected it. Ty.

Quote

Why would you double it (or increase it at all) when you already admitted it is the longest path? And when you actually require a bigger engagement than in WvW, where you don't really have to assault keeps, and can do away with killing yaks and flipping camps for a large part of the daily work?

I made a reference to this:

Spvp and WvW are designed to encourage players try those modes. Less encouragement from a design incentive means more work. This is already mirrored in other areas of rewards and one should not expect for this to suddenly change.

 

Spvp for example is far faster game play timer wise, but heavily gated. WvW is less gated but longer. PvE would be by far the most accessible, least gated (given my example) and would thus be the longest.

Quote

Also, one thing i already mentioned is that the 14 hours you use as basis is... debatable. What you silently ignored is the massive difference in WvW between players that are new to content [~22 hours], and top tier veterans [~9h]. With the additional time increases brought to you by commanding, being on a winning server, and/or being outnumbered (especially that one can significantly accelerate the progress)

That's why I went with 14 hours (which is far closer to 9 hours than 22 btw) as to make it a fair comparison. We could even go as far and account for certain things for PvE players. Say specific achievements which demonstrate veterancy in playing the content for months which cut down the required "world bosses".

 

We could also redo the math with 22 hours in mind, given that is where most player would be at which now rush into WvW to get their armor.

Quote

So, you should probbaly consider that players that are very invested in doing OW content should probably have to do half the number you originally calculated. Not twice.

Haha, no. That's strait up wishful thinking. If you believe the most played content, where the developers have the least incentive to have players get their armor from, would be the fastest and easiest to get the shiny, think again.

 

Quote

20% more seems reasonable, but most likely it would come as additional collections in the gen2 tier 2 collection mat sink style - and those should likely replace some of the event completion requirements.

3k gold is literally where legendary runes are at now (490-500 gold per). To assume an item more valuable and added later would be cheaper makes no sense.

Quote

Overall, though (with the caveats i mentioned), it does seem to be reasonable.

 

I tried to make a realistic or to be expected example within the scope of what we have seen so far.

 

I still think this would be very niche group of players to complete it, at least within the next year or 2. Would it be worthwhile to implement? For this niche group sure.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

In theory, yes. In practice, that "same thing" needs to be much wider than just a very narrow activity. You may have a pleasant talk with strangers on a train, but they won't become your friends.

Depends on how long, which narrow activity etc.

For example my father did make friends on the train from and to work, merely by the fact that they had a consistent meeting schedule. Now yes to keep that friendship going you need more things to bond over then just the train, but they would not have had the change to bond without it.

[Fuchslein.8639]

Wow, and here we go again xD

[yann.1946]

7 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Wow, and here we go again xD

Probably 😛

[hash.8462]

12 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yes, I was keeping it low given how to get below 14 hours per week one needs to have already been invested somewhat in WvW beforehand.

Just for reference, a friend is doing WvW for the ring just now, it's only around level 200 (+1 pip) and has done the same last week (+1 pip for wood chest), this week he completed diamond in about 20h of play.

[Trejgon.9367]

Are Astral and Cyn designing now PvE pips system for legendary armor there? 😛 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

If you wanted non PvP, non WvW, non Raid armor then this is how I would do it:

 

Gift of Prosperity

Gift of Dedication

Gift of Prowess replacement where instead of LI if is something suitably time gated that requires either a time gated merchant, or time gated materials.

'Precursor' which would be something attained from an achievement

 

LI replacement could be Grandmaster Marks.

[Shikaru.7618]

On 8/15/2021 at 5:55 AM, Dante.1763 said:

It was very clear what i said.

 

But here, more info: If raids had been made for -everyone- to play they would have been no harder than the first few strike mission bosses they added.

Raids are already easy. The rest of the game should be harder so that the difficulty jump isn't as drastic. The dexterity and reflex requirement to do well in raids is actually very low. The issue is that fresh open worlders come in with only 10% knowledge of their class and how to avoid damage so it seems hard.

 

Open world is akin to first grade math and raids is akin to fifth grade math. Fifth grade math in the grand scheme of things is very easy, but if your education only consist of first grade math, it will seem near impossible.

[AgentMoore.9453]

10 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Should rewards motivate ppl to do new type of content or .... Should any or all kind of reward be tied to one single form of content?

 

I know you were just thinking out loud, but I went ahead and did it too.

Depends on your goal, I guess. You can get karma just about anywhere, but other currencies are locked to maps. Sometimes they want to encourage general play and sometimes they want to populate a specific area of the game. Dailies and achievements are another way of nudging players toward content they want more activity in, but that's not always the case. "Should" will always depend on what your goal is, and if the goal is to encourage more players to chase legendary tier stuff, I think availability could stand to be expanded to encourage this.

 

Quote

Will ppl be happy if they get one legendary Armor piece every 30 days in the loyalty chest as reward? ...  Or if ppl consider chopping 10000 wood nodes as hard grind hard mode since it involves mind numbing activity and consumes too much time, do ppl think it's okay to get a single legendary Armor piece as a reward for that activity?

That would be greatly unequal to how legendary gear is gotten in other modes. Either the acquisition would have to get loads less expensive/demanding in other modes, or PvE attainment should require comparable amounts of time and cashola. I'm sure you can find someone around here who'd advocate for legendary stuff as a log-in reward, but it's pretty easy to see how unreasonable that is.

 

Quote

Will introducing these possible alternate ways to aquire legendary Armor , pose a negative effect on existing gamemode, playerbase? Will that inturn affect the existing community, content like SC,MB,LN and some other player improvement content invalid? And make them go out of existence... Slowly... Quickly?

 

How will that decision affect the playerbase? Will the game survive?

 

Raids are already dead (for the time being), and it wasn't because the filthy casuals found some secret source of LI. Turns out when you market a game to a casual base for upwards of 10 years and then present them with punishing 10-man content, they're not super interested. That's the reality - ArenaNet has said as much as reasoning for why further raids have not been delivered. As for PvP and WvW, the players who don't enjoy them are already not playing in those modes and that's without there being an alternative legendary path outside of raids. It's not magically motivating anybody currently and it's not gonna.

 

So no, I don't think adding legendary generalized PvE armor (even with unique skins, wawee!) would destroy the game or invalidate the other available sets. It should still require time, materials, and motivation to complete, but I think that's fair if it's meant to be the carrot on the endgame stick. Would some players make angry threads about the effort? Sure - they already do for legendary weapons. Would it matter? Doesn't seem to for those - ascended gear is still a thing.

 

If more players obtained legendary gear by playing their preferred mode, I'd be very curious to see if having that kind of flexibility would deliver any of the increased player performance ArenaNet seems to crave.

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Available to and catered too are very different things 🙂 

Raids as they are currently in Gw2 only appeal to a small minority of players, even Anet admits this fact.
This is the whole reason why Strike Missions exist too.. they're supposed to be a bridge to get more people playing raids but a lot would argue that they failed in this regard as well.

Anet also admits that aspirational content is desirable in the game. And getting legendary armor from that aspirational content isn't a problem, because it doesn't give the players any power. You're not locked out of the raids for any reason and not completing raids doesn't lock you out of any content -you're free to keep playing with ascended gear. Or you can complete the needed content and get the rewards you want.

_____________________

 

4 hours ago, Tyncale.1629 said:

Strike Missions also have become Elitist content, with all the Li-req nonsense you see in LFG. 

Not only you can make your own group with the requirements you want, but there are training/no req/low req squads in lfg frequently, I've shown that multiple times by now, so maybe lets finally stop pretending that someone can't start raiding "because some groups have high LI requirements" and calling it "elitist content" to throw the blame on the general community playing that content. Whether you do it on purpose or not, it's just false.