Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged]

[mortrialus.3062]

6 minutes ago, Monarc.9726 said:

Just mentioning the concept of a spec that has nothing to do with the skills, trait lines, actual gameplay, etc., doesn’t mean a spec is okay just because the description is fine. 

Balance can change.  The inherent concept of the spec cannot. Tinkering with traits and damage numbers, cast times, range and cooldown of skills can make Willbender good.   But Anet is not going to scrap Willbender and introduce Monk. 

Reaper wasn't always omega power damage.  On launch it was usually run as condi, especially in PvP with power reaper being considered a joke.  Then after balance changes Power Reaper became meta in PvP and is still run today.  That's what I mean. 

Willbender is a solid idea and vision for an elite spec even if the numbers were nowhere near where they needed to be.  Virtuoso is not and even if they buffed the numbers up to being OP the spec is still a confused jumbled mess. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 10/28/2021 at 12:02 AM, SundayBlues.1596 said:

Hey, here's some ideas i had for the Virtuoso traitline. Not sure if it's too late to suggest stuff but better late than never i guess.

https://imgur.com/gallery/RNe6phA

Changes are mostly: removing condition line (redundant with mirage existing), define the power line, more utility, focus on a dueling concept.

Decent ideas.
1 Jagged mind ( 150 ferocity ) is REALLY bad, other classes can get 120-240 stats on top of weapon CD reductions, it pales in comparison.
2 Bladesong has too much rng. Rng to crit, rng for weakness not to make it a glancing, RNG to steal life, RNG to stock a blade. too many hoops.
3 Mirrored edge is just broken as kitten. Maybe something like : First and lass blade of each bladesong transfers 1 condition to the enemy. Being able to toss up to 5 conditions every couple of sec from 1 trait would be too much.

[Ukon Cairns.9160]

just realized i never actually gave feedback, the burst on condi virtuoso was really fun but there werent really any condis and not much dmg on it, which is kind of an issue if it wants the option of being a condi dps.

[HumanComplex.1648]

* Give access to alac.
* trait where alac affects the weapon swap recharge.

[HumanComplex.1648]

* Dagger should have a block or something that procs the block evade trait.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

specter and virtuoso should be switched (and i say that as a thiefplayer), as a thief a magic psyblade-juggler is a really nice fitting theme, use of initiative to create blades may be a bit too similar with malice, could also be created by every shadowstep or when entering stealth etc., the mobility of core thief is something that mesmer lacks for this playstyle, also stealth creates momentum to  store up blades and than burst them down on the foes. also gives thief the aoe damges it currently lacks.

On the other hand, specter could be absolutly amazing when you can heal and buff you own clones, staling harder fights this way. making the single support style also works in solo play and gives depth to the heal/dmgbuff output.

I think this whole situation is a problem of the falsely given need to put additional weapon choises to the especs. it creates more issues in terms of balance and finding a theme then creating benefits. 

If there is coming a further expansion down the road what the hell will warrior get as a weapon if they dont star to create new weapontypes? Focus? Scepter? the most logical would be staff or short bow, but i already see an issue with those weapons on warrior ending up like duplicates of already existing playsyles.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Felices Bladewing.3914

[Alpha.1308]

i was gonna make this into a post but it's just gonna get shoved in here and ignored anyway, so i guess i'll throw it in here before they do it themselves for being upsetti spaghetti that the devs don't listen to any real feedback 

 

but like, seriously, what was virtuoso even designed for?  

like i get the devs don't care, but it's an actual question i'd like to know the answer to 

 

what exactly does anyone, including the people who designed it, actually think Virtuoso blades will add to mesmer?

 

in pve bossing, it does more damage, wOw so important, because pve numbers can't be tweaked on core shatters to offer literally the same outcome????? especially on a class that already had strengths there before nerf after nerf after nerf after power creep and power creep after power creep  

 

• in open world tagging, they are still just as garbage as illusions, you can't shatter to tag anything because shatters still have a cooldown, and while they pierce they still aren't a real AoE, which even 0 clones does on shatter regardless

 

in small scale pvp, they are worse than current illusions, because you don't even need to CC or destroy them or waste any cooldown or anything at all on them; you can literally just A/D strafe spam them and they whiff, hard

 

and in large scale pvp (wvw), they have absolutely no place at all, as do current illusions 

 

so, seriously, am i missing something?

those are the only 4 game modes in this entire game, correct?

is bashing your head against a pve boss target really the most important thing that could have been improved on for an entire E-spec design?

 

i get wanting to remove NPCs, but to give god awful projectiles, like i seriously would like an explanation as to why this was actually designed, because i cannot comprehend why anybody actually thought this was a good idea for the game or the class itself 

 

[Certero.2594]

Bit of an overview and comparison from another thread from a mostly open world PvE perspective.

 

Chronomancer gives you some very nice things to play with, particularly with the chronophantasma trait, that has some very nice synergy with Persistence of Memory from Illusions.

Combined with firework/pack runes and Bountiful Blades trait allows you to reach 25 might and keep permanent quickness on yourself just by spamming phantasms. You can reach 25 might with GS4 alone. You can also go full glass and still manage to kill hard hitting mobs because the clones take the aggro off of you and it offers very nice damage + QoL with full Quickness+alacrity+25might uptime on yourself provided you got a decent amount concentration.

 

Double Staff Mirage has a bit less burst, but compensates with insane sustain. A celestial mirage is basically unkillable in Open World as long as you're not dozing off too much, great for soloing the hardest mobs in open world and even some meta bosses.

 

Virtuoso is more similar to chrono, but with some drawbacks:

• · No clones to take the aggro off of you
• · No nice synergy from chronophantasma
• · No easy to access alacrity on shatter
• · Projectiles

 

Virtuoso has a similar thing to chronophantasma with phantasmal blades trait, but without the cool trait interactions from chrono, quiet intensity will allow you to take less assassin and more marauder which will boost survivability, but there's nothing much to play with here. Aegis on dodge/block is nowhere near as good as clones take the aggro off of you.

Dagger is also not a good weapon, GS is more effective for damage and clone/blade generation, and sword offers movement on virtuoso, so I don't really see what can dagger bring in open world really. Except projectiles.

One of the things I like about mesmer is that you could fight chaks and jades and other mobs that have reflect on ranged without worry about killing yourself, unlike other builds I use like shortbow rev. Just careful with mobs focusing you and careful with reflects.

 

Despite all these drawbacks, the daggers on your head offer no passive whatsoever, they just sit on your head doing nothing. And nothing on your traits or mechanics interacts with how many you have on your head (except for 1 healing skill), which seems like a missed opportunity considering how many interactions holosmith had bundled with its heat mechanic. Except when you shatter, as far as the game is concerned, it matters not whether you have 0 or 5 blades on you, which classes with all the passives and benefits (and some drawbacks as well) clones have.

 

In regards to them dying in open world, mobs do reduced damage to clones even if they focus them, so they can pull the aggro for a solid 6-10 seconds before needing to be replaced, and you're likely going to end up replacing them before they die anyway just by pressing your skills.

 

And in comparison to mirage... the bloodsong line has nothing on mirage, who not only adds lots of condi damage with ambushes, but also adds sustain instead of taking it away, and it has 2 dodges.

 

Virtuoso utilities are also nothing significant. The rain of swords utilities are similar to chrono wells, but with the difference of the enemy not standing still hitting your clones to actually get hit by the full skill, the immobilize one is useless for open world where everything dies in less than 3 seconds.

 

And let me tell you, as someone who played DPS mesmer in raids for a long time, your amazing DPS benchmarks and your desirability in groups are just one balance patch away from oblivion.

 

You might see some resurgence in fractals, since mesmer has been almost completely kicked out of the meta there. But if the only endgame content I can see myself playing this thing is on low end fractals (as CMs still favor a condi setup) then that's really a disappointing outlook for the elite spec.

 

As far as I see it Virtuoso offers nothing really substantial to set it apart and gain its own place in PvE other than an alternative DH in some endgame content. I will still be recommending chrono to new players and then mirage if they want something stronger. As those are easier to play, offer more QoL and are better for solo play/offer something else than pure DPS in group content, whereas virtuoso while still good for solo play will struggle when the game starts to push back against them.

[Simonoly.4352]

I've been reflecting more on Virtuoso recently a few months after the elite spec beta hype and had a few more points of feedback regarding the bladesongs:

- I really think bladesongs should have stronger effects when used with a full stock of blades. For example, Bladesong Dissonance, when used with 5 blades, could have a stronger CC such as a knockback.

- Bladeturn Requiem would probably be a better survivability tool and a tad more thematically true to the spec itself if it were some sort of dancing evade. Basically an attenuated version of Daggerstorm.

- Bladesongs should have 1500 range. Virtuoso dispenses with all of the trickery and illusions of the other specs in favour of a spell sniper-like archetype, so it really needs to capitalise on what that actually means.

- Bladesong Sorrow confusion should be replaced with an entirely different damaging condition. As a spell sniper, confusion feels less relevant when I'm trying my hardest to spike my enemies down before they get to me - I definitely don't want to have my enemies closing in and wailing on me with a greatsword to capitalise on those confusion procs on a spec that has so little mobility and defense baked in. I would recommend considering burning, poison or a little bit of both.

 

Bladesongs are interesting but I don't think "it's your shatters but ranged" is enough to differentiate and really excite, sadly. Hopeful for some fun mechanical and thematic changes before release 😁

Edited November 12, 2021 by Simonoly.4352

[mortrialus.3062]

So the final Beta weekend with all 9 elite specs at once is at the end of the month.  We'll probably see a round of changes to all the elite specs, plus another round of changes before the launch of EoD in February. 

Time to place your bets on the Virtuoso changes. 

[Tseison.4659]

36 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

So the final Beta weekend with all 9 elite specs at once is at the end of the month.  We'll probably see a round of changes to all the elite specs, plus another round of changes before the launch of EoD in February. 

Time to place your bets on the Virtuoso changes. 

Well when they told me “small changes” on the live stream, a part of me feels that they probably just fixed some of the traits and so that the current traits work hand to hand with the Virtuoso. 
The issue of not being able to throw Bladesongs behind us (Engineers can do it with grenades) and then lastly will probably fix the issue of Thousand Cuts going immediately going on cooldown but not activating when you move while using it. 
 

Something BASIC along those lines knowing them…. But here’s hoping I’m wrong and they did more…

[Zenith.7301]

I have to wonder why the dagger animations are so bad.

 

Why are you doing a stabbing motion on a ranged weapon?

 

You made mesmer greatsword unique as a ranged weapon to reflect its ranged nature. Why not the same with dagger? Why are you slashing at the air? The dagger should be floating and animated by magic like the greatsword.

[mortrialus.3062]

2 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Well when they told me “small changes” on the live stream, a part of me feels that they probably just fixed some of the traits and so that the current traits work hand to hand with the Virtuoso. 
The issue of not being able to throw Bladesongs behind us (Engineers can do it with grenades) and then lastly will probably fix the issue of Thousand Cuts going immediately going on cooldown but not activating when you move while using it. 
 

Something BASIC along those lines knowing them…. But here’s hoping I’m wrong and they did more…

TeaPot noticed that for the Catalyst, they've already made a mechanical change in that the Jade Spheres no longer drain energy but just have a one time up front cost. 

[Zenith.7301]

1 hour ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

TeaPot noticed that for the Catalyst, they've already made a mechanical change in that the Jade Spheres no longer drain energy but just have a one time up front cost. 

 

 

This virtually means nothing because the issue is why would you bring a Catalyst when the quickbrand and quickscrapper don't have to ramp up to activate their boons.

 

That is the issue, they would have to do the druid CA fix to encounters where the bass autofills at the beginning of the encounter to make Catalyst a viable quickness provider.

[Caid.4932]

40 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

This virtually means nothing because the issue is why would you bring a Catalyst when the quickbrand and quickscrapper don't have to ramp up to activate their boons.

 

That is the issue, they would have to do the druid CA fix to encounters where the bass autofills at the beginning of the encounter to make Catalyst a viable quickness provider.

Energy reset to 10 between fights in beta which might be enough to use it at start of fight. It could just be developer cheat so I'm not sure i'd read too much into it.

[Iavra.8510]

I would love for the "blades" to not be as passive as they are right now. Just make them attack our targets whenever we do (with beams or similar, please no projectiles), so they can trigger clone passives. Then add sustain to the class, revert shatters (now only PBAoE since clones don't wander around) and we might finally have a more bruiser-like spec and no longer be forced to stick at max range.

[Yoci.2481]

On 11/14/2021 at 11:07 PM, Iavra.8510 said:

I would love for the "blades" to not be as passive as they are right now. Just make them attack our targets whenever we do (with beams or similar, please no projectiles), so they can trigger clone passives. Then add sustain to the class, revert shatters (now only PBAoE since clones don't wander around) and we might finally have a more bruiser-like spec and no longer be forced to stick at max range.

Good idea, but doesn't go far enough. In order to actually attack the blades need to be able to move around freely, so they can walk towards the opponent. Since that would be a bit OP opponents should be able to attack and kill the blades.

 

Perhaps change their model.

 

There, I fixed Virtuoso. 😁

[mortrialus.3062]

Edit I finally saw the notes.  Yikes. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

Master of Fragmentation in the Illusions traitline should give condi cleanse on Virtuoso's shatter 4. 2 or 3 condis would be good. This would bring some much needed condi clear to the kit IMO. 

One of Virtuoso's traits should be reworked to give swiftness when 3 or more blades are stocked.

Coming from a pvp player's perspective, I think these changes or similar changes to my ideas would greatly improve virtuoso's subpar pvp performance.

Edited November 26, 2021 by WhoWantsAHug.3186

[Caid.4932]

I dont really get how these bits are meant to fit together. Dagger seems like a mid range cleave shortbow kind of weapon without the mobility or cc to set itself up and protect itself. Seems like its going to lean heavily on sword for mobility and defence (which has a lot of overlap in use) and then has 1200 range shatters. Then theres the mental focus trait encouraging you to stay in 600 range.

It gives mid range cleave but makes it much harder to cleave with shatters and harder to land them.

Shatters have a cast time, a travel time, they're projectiles, they have facing requirements. The only advantage is their range, i'm pretty sure all the other bits would work far better with the traditional shatters.

Or else you grab a greatsword, ignore dagger, ignore mental focus and kill stuff before it gets in range. Use blink and stealth which aren't particularly supported to maintain range

 

Dagger, traits and utilities should be built for long range combat and maintaining distance or bladesongs should be built for mid range combat, drop the range to 600 if necessary to bring back the usability and reliability of landing shatters. Some baseline survivability would be helpful too, aegis helps but a midrange no clone virtuoso is going to take a lot more hits than mirage in particular.

[mortrialus.3062]

So how about all that new feedback we can give based on all the changes they did guys?

Guys? 

[Levetty.1279]

39 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

So how about all that new feedback we can give based on all the changes they did guys?

Guys? 

The fact the other profession forums are filling up with feedback and opinions about the specs while Mesmer forums are dead should tell them how badly they kittened up. They don't read this forum though so it won't.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Levetty.1279

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

43 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

So how about all that new feedback we can give based on all the changes they did guys?

Guys? 

WoW, tHeSe ChAnGeS aRe So GrEaT! I'vE nEvEr HaD aN eAsIeR tImE fArMiNg PvE mObS! iTs So PrEtTy, ThE vIsUaLs ArE gReAt!
As A nOnE mEsMeR mAiN, I CoUlDnT bE BoThErEd To LeArN wHaT tHe ClOnEs DiD, bUt tHiS eSpEc Is So PrEtTy!!!!

[Lobomon.6210]

Just a small bit of feedback. I believe I have found a bug.

The Master Trait "Sharpening Sorrow", which gives Expertise when you have Fury, is giving 6430 Expertise instead of the listed 150.

In case it's some weird interaction, and for additional information, I'm using the preset build and just swapped that trait so my base Expertise was only 78.

https://imgur.com/ResG6F1

Edited November 30, 2021 by Lobomon.6210

[Borked.6824]

16 minutes ago, MrAmputatoes.6031 said:

WoW, tHeSe ChAnGeS aRe So GrEaT! I'vE nEvEr HaD aN eAsIeR tImE fArMiNg PvE mObS! iTs So PrEtTy, ThE vIsUaLs ArE gReAt!
As A nOnE mEsMeR mAiN, I CoUlDnT bE BoThErEd To LeArN wHaT tHe ClOnEs DiD, bUt tHiS eSpEc Is So PrEtTy!!!!

I love watching you mesmer mains squirm.  I honestly hope they don't change a thing further just to see if pinkbois can spontaneously combust.  Like a pinata that explodes into a thousand "im petty" flags.