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Running antitoxin rune & still being unable to do anything vs Immob ranger/druid

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  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Yes that burn stack which can barely overcome regeneration sure is powerful.

    Or could it be the amount of stacks some classes can combo, who knows? Nah its a mystery so lets just say the damage is too high.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    If we're going down that route, then Chill is the worst of them all. I would rather get immobilised than get chilled after losing boons etc.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect - Condi Ele Pioneer

  • @Dahir.4158 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    If we're going down that route, then Chill is the worst of them all. I would rather get immobilised than get chilled after losing boons etc.

    Chill is one of the worst, but I never said immoblize was the worst or most powerful condi, but one of them. I'd much rather be chilled because at least I can dodge.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    I'd much rather be chilled because at least I can dodge.

    Evade skills can help with that, but if your skill is on cooldown because of Chill... god bless lol.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect - Condi Ele Pioneer

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2020

    @Dahir.4158 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    I'd much rather be chilled because at least I can dodge.

    Evade skills can help with that, but if your skill is on cooldown because of Chill... god bless lol.

    Oh yeah, chill is super annoying if you don't have skills because of the slowing of them, but I can still jump away while chilled or at least move, if slower. Immobilize can stop you so hard in your tracks that mobility skills themselves can get stopped in place.

    And correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I don't think there's any more pulsing chill AoE from class skills anymore besides Chronomancer's Well of Recall. Unyielding Anguish doesn't exist anymore and necro's chill on blind was nerfed with an ICD. Why do we have any pulsing immobilize anyway?

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    @Baldrick.8967 said:
    I read this as ' I usually win 7 or 8/10 with my OP build with maximum cheese, but now I have found a build that counters mine, pls nerf'.

    And it's unfair, this player deserves to win 10/10 matches with his OP build! XD

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    Of course I'm looking at damage because you said immobilize guarantees a kill. And yet being immobilized is not a guaranteed kill. It requires a follow up with other skills. Burning, on the other hand, can kill a player without any help from anything else. Burning does the most base condition damage. Sure, immobilize is powerful, but it is by no means "the single most powerful condi in the game". That's just hyperbole on your part.

    If you're a free kill for being immobilized for a split second, then something is wrong with either your build, your skill usage, or your group. Yes, I know why the elementalist immob spam exists. I just haven't personally found it to be a problem when the group has the necessary amount of support scrappers. It only guarantees kills when mistakes are made.

    So again, replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. There's a lot of skills that create an area with a pulsing condition, pulsing boon application, and/or pulsing damage and they all exist to either provide area denial or a safe area. You can't replace the pulse application from those skills without affecting their ability to provide area denial/safe area. That in turn just makes something else OP, like cleanses. Consideration has to be made for the purpose of the skill.

  • @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    Of course I'm looking at damage because you said immobilize guarantees a kill. And yet being immobilized is not a guaranteed kill. It requires a follow up with other skills. Burning, on the other hand, can kill a player without any help from anything else. Burning does the most base condition damage. Sure, immobilize is powerful, but it is by no means "the single most powerful condi in the game". That's just hyperbole on your part.

    If you're a free kill for being immobilized for a split second, then something is wrong with either your build, your skill usage, or your group. Yes, I know why the elementalist immob spam exists. I just haven't personally found it to be a problem when the group has the necessary amount of support scrappers. It only guarantees kills when mistakes are made.

    So again, replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. There's a lot of skills that create an area with a pulsing condition, pulsing boon application, and/or pulsing damage and they all exist to either provide area denial or a safe area. You can't replace the pulse application from those skills without affecting their ability to provide area denial/safe area. That in turn just makes something else OP, like cleanses. Consideration has to be made for the purpose of the skill.

    If you're going to quote me, do it right. I never said it was THE single most powerful condi, but one of them. Nice job cutting out that part.

    Immobilize can absolutely guarantee a kill because you CANNOT dodge, meaning that AoE you're standing in that's pulsing condi can't be gotten out of without special skills or traits. You're reasoning is also very flawed if damage is the only thing you consider as powerful or guaranteeing a kill, CC them becomes weak because you have to follow up afterwards. These things set up nearly guaranteed follow ups, and thus kills, because you can't dodge the follow up.

    Burning is only powerful in stacks and only when covered by a ton of other condi because the primary abuser of burn only applies burn, so minimal cleanse deals with it on its own. 1 split second of immobilize can set up anything because you're stuck in place. Those pulsing condi/ damage fields don't pulse immobilize, they utilize it to keep people in them, and immobilize itself pulsing is far too powerful to be pulsed at all and be reapplied after it was cleansed unless by another skill applying it.

    If your buuld that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

  • SoulSlavocracy.4902SoulSlavocracy.4902 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    So this is what I understood from op and the vid:
    Weaver is very hard to play, as a result Weaver SHOULD win most if not all fights.
    Immob druid is a meme hence it should get nerfed to the ground
    If someone agrees with what we say, it's "insightful commenting". If someone disagrees, it's bad.

    Btw, weaver is as a meme as this druid, if not more. I personally see 10 weavers for each immob druid.

    And how many of them were able to beat you and/or didn't just fight indefinitely with a sustain-heavy build that can't kill anything? Yes I know there are plenty of good eles in the game but actually go out into WvW and see how often you come across them for yourself.

    What you're saying is like saying "being a mechanic is as much of a meme as working at mcdonalds because most people are unable to be a mechanic, but most people are able to work at mcdonalds" ... that doesn't hold up to scrutiny very well. If someone disagrees, you can understand why some might take issue..

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    If your build that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    You lost fair and square. Time to move on (or try to duplicate the same results you get on weaver with the same trapper Druid and show us the unedited videos).

    And knowing “Weaver still OP” is exactly why you use it. But if you really want to keep on the “nerf immobilized” track, although knowing there are tons of profession builds that don’t sweat it, then we are gonna have to nerf some of weaver defenses and barrier applications too my pal.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902

    Let’s do the trapper Druid vids! I’m sure it will do even better than your weaver!

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    ele is fun

    Let’s also see your trapper Druid, again using the same build as the one you lost to, versus all vids!

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:
    I am in no way suggesting that fire weaver will win vs every class - it can't, if player skill is equal (or if weaver is less). This is only a demonstration for anyone thinking about trying it out - to see roughly how you can go about countering some builds.

    And actually there is no duel vs Necro in this video - there was but I took it out before rendering because it was really boring, you're welcome. He was a good necro, too, but really boring fight with a lot of kiting from both of us ... necros go down just like the rest though.

    Some swearing in the video

    Build:
    https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=http%3A%2F%2Fgw2skills.net%2Feditor%2F%3FvFAQJAsYncMAFNgF5C%2B4CM5iFBAr4N0GSD3v6a9tOIAMBeAA-j1hAABop8zU1fgUJ45PAAAOBAZv%2Fwi6JCAgA4m38m38m3srbzbezbezbezbezbWKgtWGB-w&event=video_description&v=vE4Oo0CBG64&redir_token=eZb2mNq-7lyfuruGHHwC7guQkaN8MTU2NDA4NjYzMUAxNTY0MDAwMjMx

    Edit- The rest of the build is easy to find, but you can see the weapon and slot skill choices here...

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    So this is what I understood from op and the vid:
    Weaver is very hard to play, as a result Weaver SHOULD win most if not all fights.
    Immob druid is a meme hence it should get nerfed to the ground
    If someone agrees with what we say, it's "insightful commenting". If someone disagrees, it's bad.

    Btw, weaver is as a meme as this druid, if not more. I personally see 10 weavers for each immob druid.

    And how many of them were able to beat you and/or didn't just fight indefinitely with a sustain-heavy build that can't kill anything? Yes I know there are plenty of good eles in the game but actually go out into WvW and see how often you come across them for yourself.

    What you're saying is like saying "being a mechanic is as much of a meme as working at mcdonalds because most people are unable to be a mechanic, but most people are able to work at mcdonalds" ... that doesn't hold up to scrutiny very well. If someone disagrees, you can understand why some might take issue..

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    If your build that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I kill condi immob druid with reaper, zerk reaper. Or at the very least they run away, the occasional loss is also acceptable (I tend to make mistakes).

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 22, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    Of course I'm looking at damage because you said immobilize guarantees a kill. And yet being immobilized is not a guaranteed kill. It requires a follow up with other skills. Burning, on the other hand, can kill a player without any help from anything else. Burning does the most base condition damage. Sure, immobilize is powerful, but it is by no means "the single most powerful condi in the game". That's just hyperbole on your part.

    If you're a free kill for being immobilized for a split second, then something is wrong with either your build, your skill usage, or your group. Yes, I know why the elementalist immob spam exists. I just haven't personally found it to be a problem when the group has the necessary amount of support scrappers. It only guarantees kills when mistakes are made.

    So again, replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. There's a lot of skills that create an area with a pulsing condition, pulsing boon application, and/or pulsing damage and they all exist to either provide area denial or a safe area. You can't replace the pulse application from those skills without affecting their ability to provide area denial/safe area. That in turn just makes something else OP, like cleanses. Consideration has to be made for the purpose of the skill.

    If you're going to quote me, do it right. I never said it was THE single most powerful condi, but one of them. Nice job cutting out that part.

    Immobilize can absolutely guarantee a kill because you CANNOT dodge, meaning that AoE you're standing in that's pulsing condi can't be gotten out of without special skills or traits. You're reasoning is also very flawed if damage is the only thing you consider as powerful or guaranteeing a kill, CC them becomes weak because you have to follow up afterwards. These things set up nearly guaranteed follow ups, and thus kills, because you can't dodge the follow up.

    Burning is only powerful in stacks and only when covered by a ton of other condi because the primary abuser of burn only applies burn, so minimal cleanse deals with it on its own. 1 split second of immobilize can set up anything because you're stuck in place. Those pulsing condi/ damage fields don't pulse immobilize, they utilize it to keep people in them, and immobilize itself pulsing is far too powerful to be pulsed at all and be reapplied after it was cleansed unless by another skill applying it.

    If your buuld that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

    So pulsing immob shouldn't be a thing ever because it is one of the most powerful conditions in the game, but pulsing burning is ok because it isn't the only most powerful condition in the game and is dodgeable? OK, dude. Lol.

    Again, immob has counters. Stop getting hung up on the dodge then brushing off those counters. Burning can't be avoided when there's cover condis outside of the resistance boon because there's no skills that ignore it or remove it, unlike for immob. All your argument looks like is you ignoring all combat mechanics to try to justify an unnecessarily heavy handed nerf. The weaver in the video handles pulsing immob much better than you seem able to conceive.

    It is a good thing you aren't in charge of balance because you think skills exist in a vacuum and everything else in the system is irrelevant. It is foolish to believe that devs don't bother thinking about how individual changes potentially affect the entire system. Don't use a machete for a job that only requires a scalpel. Changing pulsating fields to duration is a machete and the wrong way to make a change.

  • @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    Of course I'm looking at damage because you said immobilize guarantees a kill. And yet being immobilized is not a guaranteed kill. It requires a follow up with other skills. Burning, on the other hand, can kill a player without any help from anything else. Burning does the most base condition damage. Sure, immobilize is powerful, but it is by no means "the single most powerful condi in the game". That's just hyperbole on your part.

    If you're a free kill for being immobilized for a split second, then something is wrong with either your build, your skill usage, or your group. Yes, I know why the elementalist immob spam exists. I just haven't personally found it to be a problem when the group has the necessary amount of support scrappers. It only guarantees kills when mistakes are made.

    So again, replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. There's a lot of skills that create an area with a pulsing condition, pulsing boon application, and/or pulsing damage and they all exist to either provide area denial or a safe area. You can't replace the pulse application from those skills without affecting their ability to provide area denial/safe area. That in turn just makes something else OP, like cleanses. Consideration has to be made for the purpose of the skill.

    If you're going to quote me, do it right. I never said it was THE single most powerful condi, but one of them. Nice job cutting out that part.

    Immobilize can absolutely guarantee a kill because you CANNOT dodge, meaning that AoE you're standing in that's pulsing condi can't be gotten out of without special skills or traits. You're reasoning is also very flawed if damage is the only thing you consider as powerful or guaranteeing a kill, CC them becomes weak because you have to follow up afterwards. These things set up nearly guaranteed follow ups, and thus kills, because you can't dodge the follow up.

    Burning is only powerful in stacks and only when covered by a ton of other condi because the primary abuser of burn only applies burn, so minimal cleanse deals with it on its own. 1 split second of immobilize can set up anything because you're stuck in place. Those pulsing condi/ damage fields don't pulse immobilize, they utilize it to keep people in them, and immobilize itself pulsing is far too powerful to be pulsed at all and be reapplied after it was cleansed unless by another skill applying it.

    If your buuld that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

    So pulsing immob shouldn't be a thing ever because it is one of the most powerful conditions in the game, but pulsing burning is ok because it isn't the only most powerful condition in the game and is dodgeable? OK, dude. Lol.

    Again, immob has counters. Stop getting hung up on the dodge then brushing off those counters. Burning can't be avoided when there's cover condis outside of the resistance boon because there's no skills that ignore it or remove it, unlike for immob. All your argument looks like is you ignoring all combat mechanics to try to justify an unnecessarily heavy handed nerf. The weaver in the video handles pulsing immob much better than you seem able to conceive.

    It is a good thing you aren't in charge of balance because you think skills exist in a vacuum and everything else in the system is irrelevant. It is foolish to believe that devs don't bother thinking about how individual changes potentially affect the entire system. Don't use a machete for a job that only requires a scalpel. Changing pulsating fields to duration is a machete and the wrong way to make a change.

    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing because of the nature of the condition, it's a utility condi that keeps you in those burning fields you seem to be dying to, which in most cases aren't even burn fields but traited symbols/spirit swords or attacks in general from a burn guard. Again, burning is only powerful in stacks, low stacks are perfectly manageable and only become an issue with excessive cover condi; seriously a power rev with cleansing sigils can deal with burn guard just fine and it's a spec notoriously weak against condi.

    No skills to remove burning is outright false, there are skills and traits that explicitly remove damaging condi and burn is included in that. You're either ignorant to those or just lying.

    Not being able to dodge is by far more powerful in terms of combat mechanics overall because it eliminates one of the most essential combat tools classes have, you're just trying to ignore that because 'Omg burn hurt so bad'. Yeah that burn hurts worse when you can't dodge out of the burn fields from immobilize or dodge the CC that will keep you there. There are explicit counters to immobilize, yes, but aside from ones that are also movement abilities or you're name is warrior and to a lesser extent Devastation rev when traited, immobilize will just get reapplied immediately because of the pulse, and 1 pulse of immobilize is far more effective than literally any single pulse of another condi because now you're setup fodder for that other condi.

    You can't invoke cover condi to condemn burns but dismiss it when it's immobilize, stop. It's not a machete nerf to say something that shouldn't be a thing in the first place finally gets fixed. I'm sure Chronomancer's who were upset about Well of Precognition being nerfed, but it was fundamentally broken how it was, so that being nerfed isn't a machete act, it's called getting rid of bad designed stuff.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    Of course I'm looking at damage because you said immobilize guarantees a kill. And yet being immobilized is not a guaranteed kill. It requires a follow up with other skills. Burning, on the other hand, can kill a player without any help from anything else. Burning does the most base condition damage. Sure, immobilize is powerful, but it is by no means "the single most powerful condi in the game". That's just hyperbole on your part.

    If you're a free kill for being immobilized for a split second, then something is wrong with either your build, your skill usage, or your group. Yes, I know why the elementalist immob spam exists. I just haven't personally found it to be a problem when the group has the necessary amount of support scrappers. It only guarantees kills when mistakes are made.

    So again, replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. There's a lot of skills that create an area with a pulsing condition, pulsing boon application, and/or pulsing damage and they all exist to either provide area denial or a safe area. You can't replace the pulse application from those skills without affecting their ability to provide area denial/safe area. That in turn just makes something else OP, like cleanses. Consideration has to be made for the purpose of the skill.

    If you're going to quote me, do it right. I never said it was THE single most powerful condi, but one of them. Nice job cutting out that part.

    Immobilize can absolutely guarantee a kill because you CANNOT dodge, meaning that AoE you're standing in that's pulsing condi can't be gotten out of without special skills or traits. You're reasoning is also very flawed if damage is the only thing you consider as powerful or guaranteeing a kill, CC them becomes weak because you have to follow up afterwards. These things set up nearly guaranteed follow ups, and thus kills, because you can't dodge the follow up.

    Burning is only powerful in stacks and only when covered by a ton of other condi because the primary abuser of burn only applies burn, so minimal cleanse deals with it on its own. 1 split second of immobilize can set up anything because you're stuck in place. Those pulsing condi/ damage fields don't pulse immobilize, they utilize it to keep people in them, and immobilize itself pulsing is far too powerful to be pulsed at all and be reapplied after it was cleansed unless by another skill applying it.

    If your buuld that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

    So pulsing immob shouldn't be a thing ever because it is one of the most powerful conditions in the game, but pulsing burning is ok because it isn't the only most powerful condition in the game and is dodgeable? OK, dude. Lol.

    Again, immob has counters. Stop getting hung up on the dodge then brushing off those counters. Burning can't be avoided when there's cover condis outside of the resistance boon because there's no skills that ignore it or remove it, unlike for immob. All your argument looks like is you ignoring all combat mechanics to try to justify an unnecessarily heavy handed nerf. The weaver in the video handles pulsing immob much better than you seem able to conceive.

    It is a good thing you aren't in charge of balance because you think skills exist in a vacuum and everything else in the system is irrelevant. It is foolish to believe that devs don't bother thinking about how individual changes potentially affect the entire system. Don't use a machete for a job that only requires a scalpel. Changing pulsating fields to duration is a machete and the wrong way to make a change.

    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing because of the nature of the condition, it's a utility condi that keeps you in those burning fields you seem to be dying to, which in most cases aren't even burn fields but traited symbols/spirit swords or attacks in general from a burn guard. Again, burning is only powerful in stacks, low stacks are perfectly manageable and only become an issue with excessive cover condi; seriously a power rev with cleansing sigils can deal with burn guard just fine and it's a spec notoriously weak against condi.

    No skills to remove burning is outright false, there are skills and traits that explicitly remove damaging condi and burn is included in that. You're either ignorant to those or just lying.

    Not being able to dodge is by far more powerful in terms of combat mechanics overall because it eliminates one of the most essential combat tools classes have, you're just trying to ignore that because 'Omg burn hurt so bad'. Yeah that burn hurts worse when you can't dodge out of the burn fields from immobilize or dodge the CC that will keep you there. There are explicit counters to immobilize, yes, but aside from ones that are also movement abilities or you're name is warrior and to a lesser extent Devastation rev when traited, immobilize will just get reapplied immediately because of the pulse, and 1 pulse of immobilize is far more effective than literally any single pulse of another condi because now you're setup fodder for that other condi.

    You can't invoke cover condi to condemn burns but dismiss it when it's immobilize, stop. It's not a machete nerf to say something that shouldn't be a thing in the first place finally gets fixed. I'm sure Chronomancer's who were upset about Well of Precognition being nerfed, but it was fundamentally broken how it was, so that being nerfed isn't a machete act, it's called getting rid of bad designed stuff.

    Bruh, you just said cleansing sigils work then say "omg can't dodge".

    It's absolutely a machete to say something already existing in the game should be nerfed with a heavy hand without consideration for how it affects the entire system. And Well of Precognition still pulses, btw. There was no replacement of the pulsing with a single longer duration. Not sure what you're trying to prove with that other than to support my point that scalpels are better for balancing. Skills designed to apply effect on intervals do so for a reason beyond the surface of the effect.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2020

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    Of course I'm looking at damage because you said immobilize guarantees a kill. And yet being immobilized is not a guaranteed kill. It requires a follow up with other skills. Burning, on the other hand, can kill a player without any help from anything else. Burning does the most base condition damage. Sure, immobilize is powerful, but it is by no means "the single most powerful condi in the game". That's just hyperbole on your part.

    If you're a free kill for being immobilized for a split second, then something is wrong with either your build, your skill usage, or your group. Yes, I know why the elementalist immob spam exists. I just haven't personally found it to be a problem when the group has the necessary amount of support scrappers. It only guarantees kills when mistakes are made.

    So again, replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. There's a lot of skills that create an area with a pulsing condition, pulsing boon application, and/or pulsing damage and they all exist to either provide area denial or a safe area. You can't replace the pulse application from those skills without affecting their ability to provide area denial/safe area. That in turn just makes something else OP, like cleanses. Consideration has to be made for the purpose of the skill.

    If you're going to quote me, do it right. I never said it was THE single most powerful condi, but one of them. Nice job cutting out that part.

    Immobilize can absolutely guarantee a kill because you CANNOT dodge, meaning that AoE you're standing in that's pulsing condi can't be gotten out of without special skills or traits. You're reasoning is also very flawed if damage is the only thing you consider as powerful or guaranteeing a kill, CC them becomes weak because you have to follow up afterwards. These things set up nearly guaranteed follow ups, and thus kills, because you can't dodge the follow up.

    Burning is only powerful in stacks and only when covered by a ton of other condi because the primary abuser of burn only applies burn, so minimal cleanse deals with it on its own. 1 split second of immobilize can set up anything because you're stuck in place. Those pulsing condi/ damage fields don't pulse immobilize, they utilize it to keep people in them, and immobilize itself pulsing is far too powerful to be pulsed at all and be reapplied after it was cleansed unless by another skill applying it.

    If your buuld that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

    So pulsing immob shouldn't be a thing ever because it is one of the most powerful conditions in the game, but pulsing burning is ok because it isn't the only most powerful condition in the game and is dodgeable? OK, dude. Lol.

    Again, immob has counters. Stop getting hung up on the dodge then brushing off those counters. Burning can't be avoided when there's cover condis outside of the resistance boon because there's no skills that ignore it or remove it, unlike for immob. All your argument looks like is you ignoring all combat mechanics to try to justify an unnecessarily heavy handed nerf. The weaver in the video handles pulsing immob much better than you seem able to conceive.

    It is a good thing you aren't in charge of balance because you think skills exist in a vacuum and everything else in the system is irrelevant. It is foolish to believe that devs don't bother thinking about how individual changes potentially affect the entire system. Don't use a machete for a job that only requires a scalpel. Changing pulsating fields to duration is a machete and the wrong way to make a change.

    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing because of the nature of the condition, it's a utility condi that keeps you in those burning fields you seem to be dying to, which in most cases aren't even burn fields but traited symbols/spirit swords or attacks in general from a burn guard. Again, burning is only powerful in stacks, low stacks are perfectly manageable and only become an issue with excessive cover condi; seriously a power rev with cleansing sigils can deal with burn guard just fine and it's a spec notoriously weak against condi.

    No skills to remove burning is outright false, there are skills and traits that explicitly remove damaging condi and burn is included in that. You're either ignorant to those or just lying.

    Not being able to dodge is by far more powerful in terms of combat mechanics overall because it eliminates one of the most essential combat tools classes have, you're just trying to ignore that because 'Omg burn hurt so bad'. Yeah that burn hurts worse when you can't dodge out of the burn fields from immobilize or dodge the CC that will keep you there. There are explicit counters to immobilize, yes, but aside from ones that are also movement abilities or you're name is warrior and to a lesser extent Devastation rev when traited, immobilize will just get reapplied immediately because of the pulse, and 1 pulse of immobilize is far more effective than literally any single pulse of another condi because now you're setup fodder for that other condi.

    You can't invoke cover condi to condemn burns but dismiss it when it's immobilize, stop. It's not a machete nerf to say something that shouldn't be a thing in the first place finally gets fixed. I'm sure Chronomancer's who were upset about Well of Precognition being nerfed, but it was fundamentally broken how it was, so that being nerfed isn't a machete act, it's called getting rid of bad designed stuff.

    Bruh, you just said cleansing sigils work then say "omg can't dodge".

    It's absolutely a machete to say something already existing in the game should be nerfed with a heavy hand without consideration for how it affects the entire system. And Well of Precognition still pulses, btw. There was no replacement of the pulsing with a single longer duration. Not sure what you're trying to prove with that other than to support my point that scalpels are better for balancing. Skills designed to apply effect on intervals do so for a reason beyond the surface of the effect.

    Cleansing sigils work every 9 seconds, that immobilize pulse can completely negate the entire reason I used it and yes, means I can't dodge because it just pulsed again. I'm also talking about how cleansing sigils alone can counter burn guards on low cleanse builds since you're so hung up on burns for some reason. Burn guard is easy to counter.

    Of course kitten still pulses, but what does it pulse now? Aegis, which is perfectly manageable and sometimes ignored if you have unblockable attacks ready. You know what it used to pulse? Distortion. Yeah, it was literally an invuln field, and it was insanely broken back then. It needed a heavy handed nerf because of how disproportionately powerful it was and it still didn't become worthless, chrono did later but that's not because of this nerf. The point wasn't about it pulsing, but the degree of power and the nerf required for it.

    That same logic applies here, but instead of changing what it does, change its duration and application. You still get long immobilize, which is still insanely powerful, but now you can't immediately counter the counter mechanic to it by just having it reapply when people react properly to it.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    Of course I'm looking at damage because you said immobilize guarantees a kill. And yet being immobilized is not a guaranteed kill. It requires a follow up with other skills. Burning, on the other hand, can kill a player without any help from anything else. Burning does the most base condition damage. Sure, immobilize is powerful, but it is by no means "the single most powerful condi in the game". That's just hyperbole on your part.

    If you're a free kill for being immobilized for a split second, then something is wrong with either your build, your skill usage, or your group. Yes, I know why the elementalist immob spam exists. I just haven't personally found it to be a problem when the group has the necessary amount of support scrappers. It only guarantees kills when mistakes are made.

    So again, replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. There's a lot of skills that create an area with a pulsing condition, pulsing boon application, and/or pulsing damage and they all exist to either provide area denial or a safe area. You can't replace the pulse application from those skills without affecting their ability to provide area denial/safe area. That in turn just makes something else OP, like cleanses. Consideration has to be made for the purpose of the skill.

    If you're going to quote me, do it right. I never said it was THE single most powerful condi, but one of them. Nice job cutting out that part.

    Immobilize can absolutely guarantee a kill because you CANNOT dodge, meaning that AoE you're standing in that's pulsing condi can't be gotten out of without special skills or traits. You're reasoning is also very flawed if damage is the only thing you consider as powerful or guaranteeing a kill, CC them becomes weak because you have to follow up afterwards. These things set up nearly guaranteed follow ups, and thus kills, because you can't dodge the follow up.

    Burning is only powerful in stacks and only when covered by a ton of other condi because the primary abuser of burn only applies burn, so minimal cleanse deals with it on its own. 1 split second of immobilize can set up anything because you're stuck in place. Those pulsing condi/ damage fields don't pulse immobilize, they utilize it to keep people in them, and immobilize itself pulsing is far too powerful to be pulsed at all and be reapplied after it was cleansed unless by another skill applying it.

    If your buuld that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

    So pulsing immob shouldn't be a thing ever because it is one of the most powerful conditions in the game, but pulsing burning is ok because it isn't the only most powerful condition in the game and is dodgeable? OK, dude. Lol.

    Again, immob has counters. Stop getting hung up on the dodge then brushing off those counters. Burning can't be avoided when there's cover condis outside of the resistance boon because there's no skills that ignore it or remove it, unlike for immob. All your argument looks like is you ignoring all combat mechanics to try to justify an unnecessarily heavy handed nerf. The weaver in the video handles pulsing immob much better than you seem able to conceive.

    It is a good thing you aren't in charge of balance because you think skills exist in a vacuum and everything else in the system is irrelevant. It is foolish to believe that devs don't bother thinking about how individual changes potentially affect the entire system. Don't use a machete for a job that only requires a scalpel. Changing pulsating fields to duration is a machete and the wrong way to make a change.

    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing because of the nature of the condition, it's a utility condi that keeps you in those burning fields you seem to be dying to, which in most cases aren't even burn fields but traited symbols/spirit swords or attacks in general from a burn guard. Again, burning is only powerful in stacks, low stacks are perfectly manageable and only become an issue with excessive cover condi; seriously a power rev with cleansing sigils can deal with burn guard just fine and it's a spec notoriously weak against condi.

    No skills to remove burning is outright false, there are skills and traits that explicitly remove damaging condi and burn is included in that. You're either ignorant to those or just lying.

    Not being able to dodge is by far more powerful in terms of combat mechanics overall because it eliminates one of the most essential combat tools classes have, you're just trying to ignore that because 'Omg burn hurt so bad'. Yeah that burn hurts worse when you can't dodge out of the burn fields from immobilize or dodge the CC that will keep you there. There are explicit counters to immobilize, yes, but aside from ones that are also movement abilities or you're name is warrior and to a lesser extent Devastation rev when traited, immobilize will just get reapplied immediately because of the pulse, and 1 pulse of immobilize is far more effective than literally any single pulse of another condi because now you're setup fodder for that other condi.

    You can't invoke cover condi to condemn burns but dismiss it when it's immobilize, stop. It's not a machete nerf to say something that shouldn't be a thing in the first place finally gets fixed. I'm sure Chronomancer's who were upset about Well of Precognition being nerfed, but it was fundamentally broken how it was, so that being nerfed isn't a machete act, it's called getting rid of bad designed stuff.

    Bruh, you just said cleansing sigils work then say "omg can't dodge".

    It's absolutely a machete to say something already existing in the game should be nerfed with a heavy hand without consideration for how it affects the entire system. And Well of Precognition still pulses, btw. There was no replacement of the pulsing with a single longer duration. Not sure what you're trying to prove with that other than to support my point that scalpels are better for balancing. Skills designed to apply effect on intervals do so for a reason beyond the surface of the effect.

    Cleansing sigils work every 9 seconds, that immobilize pulse can completely negate the entire reason I used it and yes, means I can't dodge because it just pulsed again. I'm also talking about how cleansing sigils alone can counter burn guards on low cleanse builds since you're so hung up on burns for some reason. Burn guard is easy to counter.

    Of course kitten still pulses, but what does it pulse now? Aegis, which is perfectly manageable and sometimes ignored if you have unblockable attacks ready. You know what it used to pulse? Distortion. Yeah, it was literally an invuln field, and it was insanely broken back then. It needed a heavy handed nerf because of how disproportionately powerful it was and it still didn't become worthless, chrono did later but that's not because of this nerf. The point wasn't about it pulsing, but the degree of power and the nerf required for it.

    That same logic applies here, but instead of changing what it does, change its duration and application. You still get long immobilize, which is still insanely powerful, but now you can't immediately counter the counter mechanic to it by just having it reapply when people react properly to it.

    The point wasn't about the pulsing? Now I'm having a debate with someone who keeps moving the goalposts! The well still pulses and the aegis and stab replicate the invuln so it's still a useable skill that now is counterable. Pulsing immob already has a counter but you want it to become useless.

    The sigil cd is 9s? Ancient Seeds has a 10s cooldown, the Spike Trap longer, and the entangle it produces is blockable, which means you can dodge out of the pulsing. As I originally wrote, a single cleanse would hard counter your suggested change to a single long duration.

    For the record, I have zero experience playing the build in question, only played against it. It isn't difficult to recognize why a suggested nerf would be too excessive.

  • @Chaba.5410 said:

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    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    Of course I'm looking at damage because you said immobilize guarantees a kill. And yet being immobilized is not a guaranteed kill. It requires a follow up with other skills. Burning, on the other hand, can kill a player without any help from anything else. Burning does the most base condition damage. Sure, immobilize is powerful, but it is by no means "the single most powerful condi in the game". That's just hyperbole on your part.

    If you're a free kill for being immobilized for a split second, then something is wrong with either your build, your skill usage, or your group. Yes, I know why the elementalist immob spam exists. I just haven't personally found it to be a problem when the group has the necessary amount of support scrappers. It only guarantees kills when mistakes are made.

    So again, replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. There's a lot of skills that create an area with a pulsing condition, pulsing boon application, and/or pulsing damage and they all exist to either provide area denial or a safe area. You can't replace the pulse application from those skills without affecting their ability to provide area denial/safe area. That in turn just makes something else OP, like cleanses. Consideration has to be made for the purpose of the skill.

    If you're going to quote me, do it right. I never said it was THE single most powerful condi, but one of them. Nice job cutting out that part.

    Immobilize can absolutely guarantee a kill because you CANNOT dodge, meaning that AoE you're standing in that's pulsing condi can't be gotten out of without special skills or traits. You're reasoning is also very flawed if damage is the only thing you consider as powerful or guaranteeing a kill, CC them becomes weak because you have to follow up afterwards. These things set up nearly guaranteed follow ups, and thus kills, because you can't dodge the follow up.

    Burning is only powerful in stacks and only when covered by a ton of other condi because the primary abuser of burn only applies burn, so minimal cleanse deals with it on its own. 1 split second of immobilize can set up anything because you're stuck in place. Those pulsing condi/ damage fields don't pulse immobilize, they utilize it to keep people in them, and immobilize itself pulsing is far too powerful to be pulsed at all and be reapplied after it was cleansed unless by another skill applying it.

    If your buuld that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

    So pulsing immob shouldn't be a thing ever because it is one of the most powerful conditions in the game, but pulsing burning is ok because it isn't the only most powerful condition in the game and is dodgeable? OK, dude. Lol.

    Again, immob has counters. Stop getting hung up on the dodge then brushing off those counters. Burning can't be avoided when there's cover condis outside of the resistance boon because there's no skills that ignore it or remove it, unlike for immob. All your argument looks like is you ignoring all combat mechanics to try to justify an unnecessarily heavy handed nerf. The weaver in the video handles pulsing immob much better than you seem able to conceive.

    It is a good thing you aren't in charge of balance because you think skills exist in a vacuum and everything else in the system is irrelevant. It is foolish to believe that devs don't bother thinking about how individual changes potentially affect the entire system. Don't use a machete for a job that only requires a scalpel. Changing pulsating fields to duration is a machete and the wrong way to make a change.

    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing because of the nature of the condition, it's a utility condi that keeps you in those burning fields you seem to be dying to, which in most cases aren't even burn fields but traited symbols/spirit swords or attacks in general from a burn guard. Again, burning is only powerful in stacks, low stacks are perfectly manageable and only become an issue with excessive cover condi; seriously a power rev with cleansing sigils can deal with burn guard just fine and it's a spec notoriously weak against condi.

    No skills to remove burning is outright false, there are skills and traits that explicitly remove damaging condi and burn is included in that. You're either ignorant to those or just lying.

    Not being able to dodge is by far more powerful in terms of combat mechanics overall because it eliminates one of the most essential combat tools classes have, you're just trying to ignore that because 'Omg burn hurt so bad'. Yeah that burn hurts worse when you can't dodge out of the burn fields from immobilize or dodge the CC that will keep you there. There are explicit counters to immobilize, yes, but aside from ones that are also movement abilities or you're name is warrior and to a lesser extent Devastation rev when traited, immobilize will just get reapplied immediately because of the pulse, and 1 pulse of immobilize is far more effective than literally any single pulse of another condi because now you're setup fodder for that other condi.

    You can't invoke cover condi to condemn burns but dismiss it when it's immobilize, stop. It's not a machete nerf to say something that shouldn't be a thing in the first place finally gets fixed. I'm sure Chronomancer's who were upset about Well of Precognition being nerfed, but it was fundamentally broken how it was, so that being nerfed isn't a machete act, it's called getting rid of bad designed stuff.

    Bruh, you just said cleansing sigils work then say "omg can't dodge".

    It's absolutely a machete to say something already existing in the game should be nerfed with a heavy hand without consideration for how it affects the entire system. And Well of Precognition still pulses, btw. There was no replacement of the pulsing with a single longer duration. Not sure what you're trying to prove with that other than to support my point that scalpels are better for balancing. Skills designed to apply effect on intervals do so for a reason beyond the surface of the effect.

    Cleansing sigils work every 9 seconds, that immobilize pulse can completely negate the entire reason I used it and yes, means I can't dodge because it just pulsed again. I'm also talking about how cleansing sigils alone can counter burn guards on low cleanse builds since you're so hung up on burns for some reason. Burn guard is easy to counter.

    Of course kitten still pulses, but what does it pulse now? Aegis, which is perfectly manageable and sometimes ignored if you have unblockable attacks ready. You know what it used to pulse? Distortion. Yeah, it was literally an invuln field, and it was insanely broken back then. It needed a heavy handed nerf because of how disproportionately powerful it was and it still didn't become worthless, chrono did later but that's not because of this nerf. The point wasn't about it pulsing, but the degree of power and the nerf required for it.

    That same logic applies here, but instead of changing what it does, change its duration and application. You still get long immobilize, which is still insanely powerful, but now you can't immediately counter the counter mechanic to it by just having it reapply when people react properly to it.

    The point wasn't about the pulsing? Now I'm having a debate with someone who keeps moving the goalposts! The well still pulses and the aegis and stab replicate the invuln so it's still a useable skill that now is counterable. Pulsing immob already has a counter but you want it to become useless.

    The sigil cd is 9s? Ancient Seeds has a 10s cooldown, the Spike Trap longer, and the entangle it produces is blockable, which means you can dodge out of the pulsing. As I originally wrote, a single cleanse would hard counter your suggested change to a single long duration.

    For the record, I have zero experience playing the build in question, only played against it. It isn't difficult to recognize why a suggested nerf would be too excessive.

    The goalposts haven't moved, you're just being deliberately ignorant, but you're willing to misrepresent a quote of mine so I'm not surprised.

    The stability is only 1 second and is only on cast because it's a stun break, it doesn't pulse stability, it's like necro's Well of Power.

    Dude, Entangle is unblockable, as is Spike Trap, and even if i used my cleansing sigil to get immobilize off, it just gets reapplied. A single cleanse of immobilize SHOULD counter this like it does everything else. Those 10 burn stacks you got? How much cleanse does it take to get it off? A whopping 1, and burns being reapplied aren't even as powerful as immobilize because it's only dangerous in stacks, which one cleanse removes entirely back to nothing. Immobilize being cleansed and reapplied is still at full strength no matter the duration because you can't move if you have even 1 second of it.

    The pulsing immobilize counters are extremely class limited, and some are completely negated by the reapplication. Necro's shroud removing immobilize on shroud activation gets negated by the next pulse, as does the GM trait in Blood Magic that cleanses because of the next pulse. So I have to use a bunch of repeated cleansing to deal with one condi that just keeps coming back and guarantees I can't move or dodge. This is also assuming the non immobilize specific cleanses actually cleanse it and not some cover condi. Immobilize is too powerful to pulse, get rid of it like they did almost every pulsing chill.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

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    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    Of course I'm looking at damage because you said immobilize guarantees a kill. And yet being immobilized is not a guaranteed kill. It requires a follow up with other skills. Burning, on the other hand, can kill a player without any help from anything else. Burning does the most base condition damage. Sure, immobilize is powerful, but it is by no means "the single most powerful condi in the game". That's just hyperbole on your part.

    If you're a free kill for being immobilized for a split second, then something is wrong with either your build, your skill usage, or your group. Yes, I know why the elementalist immob spam exists. I just haven't personally found it to be a problem when the group has the necessary amount of support scrappers. It only guarantees kills when mistakes are made.

    So again, replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. There's a lot of skills that create an area with a pulsing condition, pulsing boon application, and/or pulsing damage and they all exist to either provide area denial or a safe area. You can't replace the pulse application from those skills without affecting their ability to provide area denial/safe area. That in turn just makes something else OP, like cleanses. Consideration has to be made for the purpose of the skill.

    If you're going to quote me, do it right. I never said it was THE single most powerful condi, but one of them. Nice job cutting out that part.

    Immobilize can absolutely guarantee a kill because you CANNOT dodge, meaning that AoE you're standing in that's pulsing condi can't be gotten out of without special skills or traits. You're reasoning is also very flawed if damage is the only thing you consider as powerful or guaranteeing a kill, CC them becomes weak because you have to follow up afterwards. These things set up nearly guaranteed follow ups, and thus kills, because you can't dodge the follow up.

    Burning is only powerful in stacks and only when covered by a ton of other condi because the primary abuser of burn only applies burn, so minimal cleanse deals with it on its own. 1 split second of immobilize can set up anything because you're stuck in place. Those pulsing condi/ damage fields don't pulse immobilize, they utilize it to keep people in them, and immobilize itself pulsing is far too powerful to be pulsed at all and be reapplied after it was cleansed unless by another skill applying it.

    If your buuld that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

    So pulsing immob shouldn't be a thing ever because it is one of the most powerful conditions in the game, but pulsing burning is ok because it isn't the only most powerful condition in the game and is dodgeable? OK, dude. Lol.

    Again, immob has counters. Stop getting hung up on the dodge then brushing off those counters. Burning can't be avoided when there's cover condis outside of the resistance boon because there's no skills that ignore it or remove it, unlike for immob. All your argument looks like is you ignoring all combat mechanics to try to justify an unnecessarily heavy handed nerf. The weaver in the video handles pulsing immob much better than you seem able to conceive.

    It is a good thing you aren't in charge of balance because you think skills exist in a vacuum and everything else in the system is irrelevant. It is foolish to believe that devs don't bother thinking about how individual changes potentially affect the entire system. Don't use a machete for a job that only requires a scalpel. Changing pulsating fields to duration is a machete and the wrong way to make a change.

    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing because of the nature of the condition, it's a utility condi that keeps you in those burning fields you seem to be dying to, which in most cases aren't even burn fields but traited symbols/spirit swords or attacks in general from a burn guard. Again, burning is only powerful in stacks, low stacks are perfectly manageable and only become an issue with excessive cover condi; seriously a power rev with cleansing sigils can deal with burn guard just fine and it's a spec notoriously weak against condi.

    No skills to remove burning is outright false, there are skills and traits that explicitly remove damaging condi and burn is included in that. You're either ignorant to those or just lying.

    Not being able to dodge is by far more powerful in terms of combat mechanics overall because it eliminates one of the most essential combat tools classes have, you're just trying to ignore that because 'Omg burn hurt so bad'. Yeah that burn hurts worse when you can't dodge out of the burn fields from immobilize or dodge the CC that will keep you there. There are explicit counters to immobilize, yes, but aside from ones that are also movement abilities or you're name is warrior and to a lesser extent Devastation rev when traited, immobilize will just get reapplied immediately because of the pulse, and 1 pulse of immobilize is far more effective than literally any single pulse of another condi because now you're setup fodder for that other condi.

    You can't invoke cover condi to condemn burns but dismiss it when it's immobilize, stop. It's not a machete nerf to say something that shouldn't be a thing in the first place finally gets fixed. I'm sure Chronomancer's who were upset about Well of Precognition being nerfed, but it was fundamentally broken how it was, so that being nerfed isn't a machete act, it's called getting rid of bad designed stuff.

    Bruh, you just said cleansing sigils work then say "omg can't dodge".

    It's absolutely a machete to say something already existing in the game should be nerfed with a heavy hand without consideration for how it affects the entire system. And Well of Precognition still pulses, btw. There was no replacement of the pulsing with a single longer duration. Not sure what you're trying to prove with that other than to support my point that scalpels are better for balancing. Skills designed to apply effect on intervals do so for a reason beyond the surface of the effect.

    Cleansing sigils work every 9 seconds, that immobilize pulse can completely negate the entire reason I used it and yes, means I can't dodge because it just pulsed again. I'm also talking about how cleansing sigils alone can counter burn guards on low cleanse builds since you're so hung up on burns for some reason. Burn guard is easy to counter.

    Of course kitten still pulses, but what does it pulse now? Aegis, which is perfectly manageable and sometimes ignored if you have unblockable attacks ready. You know what it used to pulse? Distortion. Yeah, it was literally an invuln field, and it was insanely broken back then. It needed a heavy handed nerf because of how disproportionately powerful it was and it still didn't become worthless, chrono did later but that's not because of this nerf. The point wasn't about it pulsing, but the degree of power and the nerf required for it.

    That same logic applies here, but instead of changing what it does, change its duration and application. You still get long immobilize, which is still insanely powerful, but now you can't immediately counter the counter mechanic to it by just having it reapply when people react properly to it.

    The point wasn't about the pulsing? Now I'm having a debate with someone who keeps moving the goalposts! The well still pulses and the aegis and stab replicate the invuln so it's still a useable skill that now is counterable. Pulsing immob already has a counter but you want it to become useless.

    The sigil cd is 9s? Ancient Seeds has a 10s cooldown, the Spike Trap longer, and the entangle it produces is blockable, which means you can dodge out of the pulsing. As I originally wrote, a single cleanse would hard counter your suggested change to a single long duration.

    For the record, I have zero experience playing the build in question, only played against it. It isn't difficult to recognize why a suggested nerf would be too excessive.

    The goalposts haven't moved, you're just being deliberately ignorant, but you're willing to misrepresent a quote of mine so I'm not surprised.

    The stability is only 1 second and is only on cast because it's a stun break, it doesn't pulse stability, it's like necro's Well of Power.

    Dude, Entangle is unblockable, as is Spike Trap, and even if i used my cleansing sigil to get immobilize off, it just gets reapplied. A single cleanse of immobilize SHOULD counter this like it does everything else. Those 10 burn stacks you got? How much cleanse does it take to get it off? A whopping 1, and burns being reapplied aren't even as powerful as immobilize because it's only dangerous in stacks, which one cleanse removes entirely back to nothing. Immobilize being cleansed and reapplied is still at full strength no matter the duration because you can't move if you have even 1 second of it.

    The pulsing immobilize counters are extremely class limited, and some are completely negated by the reapplication. Necro's shroud removing immobilize on shroud activation gets negated by the next pulse, as does the GM trait in Blood Magic that cleanses because of the next pulse. So I have to use a bunch of repeated cleansing to deal with one condi that just keeps coming back and guarantees I can't move or dodge. This is also assuming the non immobilize specific cleanses actually cleanse it and not some cover condi. Immobilize is too powerful to pulse, get rid of it like they did almost every pulsing chill.

    Just stop already. You keep changing the parameters (on, then off, now back on about pulsating effects) then arguing little details that are ultimately meaningless to the bigger balance concept. You said pulsing immob should never be a thing because one can't dodge when immobed. Saying I misrepresented that is a lie when my responses have directly addressed both pulsating fields and alternatives to dodging.

    Spend some more time not getting kited into a spike trap and learning how to block point blank shot. It will be more productive for you.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2020

    @SoulSlavocracy.4902

    Since the topic is full of people unconstructively calling you bad, and I am very bored at the moment, I'm going to suggest a few things based off the 5 minute clip.

    The most noticeable thing to me is that his drakehound somehow never dies, and not once do you kite out of LoS to relieve pressure and murder his pet. Ranger pets are absolutely notoriously trash at handling conditions, and his wolf dies to arbitrary condi application sheerly out of accident. I'll agree that leaves him open to disengaging/running away, but there are many builds in WvW that you can't kill in 1v1 if they don't want to fight. I can't dictate this one overpowered because you opted to fight using his rules.

    With both his pets down, his immob application gets cut drastically, about half of which is very identifiable. You also, imo, are very piano-esque with your ele play, but don't actually dodge the things that count. You count on the chain evades to do the work for you. Sometimes this works, other times it doesn't. Improving this consistency would shrink the spaces he has to kite in. For example the entangle at 3:47 was incredibly visible but you got struck by it. I'm almost certain you had an evade of some sort at this point, but it resulted in a chain of CC that burned a lot of your cooldowns (That made his catch on you at 4:16ish killer).

    The third thing is it doesn't seem like you are counting his utilities. Seeing a Spike trap, Viper's Nest, and Lightning reflexes gives you a huge edge in knowledge. One stunbreak on a 24s CD. I know your build has multiple CCs. It can and should have been easy to set up this fight by focusing pets -> pressuring CA out -> CCing him into using LR then immediately chasing the evade into more CCS and finish. You actually almost pull this off at 4:08 but use flame uprising instead trying to chain CC after baiting his evades, which results in him kiting you into a spike trap chain (which again, is an easy to see animation you could have simply chosen not to step in). It makes me think you are expecting your rotation knowledge and strong pressure weaver generally puts out to do the work for you (which it will in... 7-8 out of 10 cases), but obviously against certain builds and certain players it will not.

    Overall the druid build is, IMO, very low risk for what you get out of it and an outlier on the balance spectrum. I don't think the build itself is why you were not able to do anything though, and your general discussion approach has resulted in a lot of fluff in this topic. And well, others certainly aren't helping the cause, not the forums strong suit.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.

    How is one long duration a balance solution when a single cleanse can hard counter it? Long durations are only truly viable in PvE against NPCs that never cleanse. Duration increase in WvW is for capitalizing on opponent's mistakes and only needs a little longer duration to do.

    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    The single most powerful condi in the game is burning. It does the highest amount of condi damage and doesn't require anyone capitalizing on it to get someone down.

    Aside from that, if someone isn't familiar with the counters this game has to immobilize, that's on them. So many movement skills explicitly ignore or remove immob even with cover condis. It's silly to say immob is a guaranteed death with all the options that exist.

    And your response doesn't really answer my question. Replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. No balance is achieved by going too far in a nerf. Doing so just makes something else op.

    If you think the only thing that makes a condi powerful is damage, then you must think Weakness is a pretty weak condi. Oh wait, it can neuter power builds to a ridiculous degree. Immobilize is a utility condi that pretty much assures your attacks will land, and as I said, it prevents dodging. So yes, it's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it just doesn't to damage. Here's the thing, when you counter immobilize by cleaning, which is what the overwhelming majority of classes do, it just gets reapplied for no reason and wastes the cleanse, which is ridiculous considering what the condi does. Even skills that remove immoblize specifically can't do a thing once they're used and immoblize gets reapplied, which is the whole problem here.

    It's silly to think that being immobilized for even a split second isn't pretty much a free kill in a group fight. Why do you think Arcane burst ele's exist on support builds? Is it because of the damage? No it's for the immobilize spam that pretty much means GG for anyone that gets hit by it because now you can't dodge out of the bombs.

    The moment you go 'Nerfing this will just make something else OP!' is when you admit what you're defending is busted but you still want to defend it. Something else becoming OP after this is nerfed is entirely irrelevant. 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!'

    Of course I'm looking at damage because you said immobilize guarantees a kill. And yet being immobilized is not a guaranteed kill. It requires a follow up with other skills. Burning, on the other hand, can kill a player without any help from anything else. Burning does the most base condition damage. Sure, immobilize is powerful, but it is by no means "the single most powerful condi in the game". That's just hyperbole on your part.

    If you're a free kill for being immobilized for a split second, then something is wrong with either your build, your skill usage, or your group. Yes, I know why the elementalist immob spam exists. I just haven't personally found it to be a problem when the group has the necessary amount of support scrappers. It only guarantees kills when mistakes are made.

    So again, replacing a pulsing immob with one long duration isn't balance. There's a lot of skills that create an area with a pulsing condition, pulsing boon application, and/or pulsing damage and they all exist to either provide area denial or a safe area. You can't replace the pulse application from those skills without affecting their ability to provide area denial/safe area. That in turn just makes something else OP, like cleanses. Consideration has to be made for the purpose of the skill.

    If you're going to quote me, do it right. I never said it was THE single most powerful condi, but one of them. Nice job cutting out that part.

    Immobilize can absolutely guarantee a kill because you CANNOT dodge, meaning that AoE you're standing in that's pulsing condi can't be gotten out of without special skills or traits. You're reasoning is also very flawed if damage is the only thing you consider as powerful or guaranteeing a kill, CC them becomes weak because you have to follow up afterwards. These things set up nearly guaranteed follow ups, and thus kills, because you can't dodge the follow up.

    Burning is only powerful in stacks and only when covered by a ton of other condi because the primary abuser of burn only applies burn, so minimal cleanse deals with it on its own. 1 split second of immobilize can set up anything because you're stuck in place. Those pulsing condi/ damage fields don't pulse immobilize, they utilize it to keep people in them, and immobilize itself pulsing is far too powerful to be pulsed at all and be reapplied after it was cleansed unless by another skill applying it.

    If your buuld that relies on something as busted as pulsing immobilize becomes bad because that was nerfed, it means that was carrying it because it was too strong. Again ANYTHING else becoming powerful because this is nerfed is irrelevant, that's just a baseless defense of something in hopes to not have it nerfed, likely because 'Buff my class and nerf everything else.'

    So pulsing immob shouldn't be a thing ever because it is one of the most powerful conditions in the game, but pulsing burning is ok because it isn't the only most powerful condition in the game and is dodgeable? OK, dude. Lol.

    Again, immob has counters. Stop getting hung up on the dodge then brushing off those counters. Burning can't be avoided when there's cover condis outside of the resistance boon because there's no skills that ignore it or remove it, unlike for immob. All your argument looks like is you ignoring all combat mechanics to try to justify an unnecessarily heavy handed nerf. The weaver in the video handles pulsing immob much better than you seem able to conceive.

    It is a good thing you aren't in charge of balance because you think skills exist in a vacuum and everything else in the system is irrelevant. It is foolish to believe that devs don't bother thinking about how individual changes potentially affect the entire system. Don't use a machete for a job that only requires a scalpel. Changing pulsating fields to duration is a machete and the wrong way to make a change.

    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing because of the nature of the condition, it's a utility condi that keeps you in those burning fields you seem to be dying to, which in most cases aren't even burn fields but traited symbols/spirit swords or attacks in general from a burn guard. Again, burning is only powerful in stacks, low stacks are perfectly manageable and only become an issue with excessive cover condi; seriously a power rev with cleansing sigils can deal with burn guard just fine and it's a spec notoriously weak against condi.

    No skills to remove burning is outright false, there are skills and traits that explicitly remove damaging condi and burn is included in that. You're either ignorant to those or just lying.

    Not being able to dodge is by far more powerful in terms of combat mechanics overall because it eliminates one of the most essential combat tools classes have, you're just trying to ignore that because 'Omg burn hurt so bad'. Yeah that burn hurts worse when you can't dodge out of the burn fields from immobilize or dodge the CC that will keep you there. There are explicit counters to immobilize, yes, but aside from ones that are also movement abilities or you're name is warrior and to a lesser extent Devastation rev when traited, immobilize will just get reapplied immediately because of the pulse, and 1 pulse of immobilize is far more effective than literally any single pulse of another condi because now you're setup fodder for that other condi.

    You can't invoke cover condi to condemn burns but dismiss it when it's immobilize, stop. It's not a machete nerf to say something that shouldn't be a thing in the first place finally gets fixed. I'm sure Chronomancer's who were upset about Well of Precognition being nerfed, but it was fundamentally broken how it was, so that being nerfed isn't a machete act, it's called getting rid of bad designed stuff.

    Bruh, you just said cleansing sigils work then say "omg can't dodge".

    It's absolutely a machete to say something already existing in the game should be nerfed with a heavy hand without consideration for how it affects the entire system. And Well of Precognition still pulses, btw. There was no replacement of the pulsing with a single longer duration. Not sure what you're trying to prove with that other than to support my point that scalpels are better for balancing. Skills designed to apply effect on intervals do so for a reason beyond the surface of the effect.

    Cleansing sigils work every 9 seconds, that immobilize pulse can completely negate the entire reason I used it and yes, means I can't dodge because it just pulsed again. I'm also talking about how cleansing sigils alone can counter burn guards on low cleanse builds since you're so hung up on burns for some reason. Burn guard is easy to counter.

    Of course kitten still pulses, but what does it pulse now? Aegis, which is perfectly manageable and sometimes ignored if you have unblockable attacks ready. You know what it used to pulse? Distortion. Yeah, it was literally an invuln field, and it was insanely broken back then. It needed a heavy handed nerf because of how disproportionately powerful it was and it still didn't become worthless, chrono did later but that's not because of this nerf. The point wasn't about it pulsing, but the degree of power and the nerf required for it.

    That same logic applies here, but instead of changing what it does, change its duration and application. You still get long immobilize, which is still insanely powerful, but now you can't immediately counter the counter mechanic to it by just having it reapply when people react properly to it.

    The point wasn't about the pulsing? Now I'm having a debate with someone who keeps moving the goalposts! The well still pulses and the aegis and stab replicate the invuln so it's still a useable skill that now is counterable. Pulsing immob already has a counter but you want it to become useless.

    The sigil cd is 9s? Ancient Seeds has a 10s cooldown, the Spike Trap longer, and the entangle it produces is blockable, which means you can dodge out of the pulsing. As I originally wrote, a single cleanse would hard counter your suggested change to a single long duration.

    For the record, I have zero experience playing the build in question, only played against it. It isn't difficult to recognize why a suggested nerf would be too excessive.

    The goalposts haven't moved, you're just being deliberately ignorant, but you're willing to misrepresent a quote of mine so I'm not surprised.

    The stability is only 1 second and is only on cast because it's a stun break, it doesn't pulse stability, it's like necro's Well of Power.

    Dude, Entangle is unblockable, as is Spike Trap, and even if i used my cleansing sigil to get immobilize off, it just gets reapplied. A single cleanse of immobilize SHOULD counter this like it does everything else. Those 10 burn stacks you got? How much cleanse does it take to get it off? A whopping 1, and burns being reapplied aren't even as powerful as immobilize because it's only dangerous in stacks, which one cleanse removes entirely back to nothing. Immobilize being cleansed and reapplied is still at full strength no matter the duration because you can't move if you have even 1 second of it.

    The pulsing immobilize counters are extremely class limited, and some are completely negated by the reapplication. Necro's shroud removing immobilize on shroud activation gets negated by the next pulse, as does the GM trait in Blood Magic that cleanses because of the next pulse. So I have to use a bunch of repeated cleansing to deal with one condi that just keeps coming back and guarantees I can't move or dodge. This is also assuming the non immobilize specific cleanses actually cleanse it and not some cover condi. Immobilize is too powerful to pulse, get rid of it like they did almost every pulsing chill.

    Just stop already. You keep changing the parameters (on, then off, now back on about pulsating effects) then arguing little details that are ultimately meaningless to the bigger balance concept. You said pulsing immob should never be a thing because one can't dodge when immobed. Saying I misrepresented that is a lie when my responses have directly addressed both pulsating fields and alternatives to dodging.

    Spend some more time not getting kited into a spike trap and learning how to block point blank shot. It will be more productive for you.

    You misrepresented my statement about it being one of the most powerful cobdi in the game, and you're doing it again by saying I was talking about something else. You can't seem to remember anything past a single post so there's no point arguing.

    I actually just run condi transfer rev and make rangers stuck from their own immob spam so I don't struggle with this build, I'm just not so biased because it's my class that I'm operating under the mindset of 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!' It's an unhealthy mechanic and needs to go, plain and simple.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    You misrepresented my statement about it being one of the most powerful cobdi in the game, and you're doing it again by saying I was talking about something else. You can't seem to remember anything past a single post so there's no point arguing.

    I actually just run condi transfer rev and make rangers stuck from their own immob spam so I don't struggle with this build, I'm just not so biased because it's my class that I'm operating under the mindset of 'Buff my class and nerf everyone else!' It's an unhealthy mechanic and needs to go, plain and simple.

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    Pulsing immobilize shouldn't be a thing, ever. Make it one long duration, not reapply after it's been cleansed.
    It's one of the single most powerful condi in the game, it stops you dead in your tracks and prevents you from dodging and basically guarantees you die in a team fight because you're stuck.

    You said pulsing immob should never be a thing because one can't dodge when immobed. Saying I misrepresented that is a lie when my responses have directly addressed both pulsating fields and alternatives to dodging. If you struggle that much with identifying the original core statement you made and just want to get hung up on tangents without actually defending your own core statement, there's no point arguing.

    P.S. Ranger isn't my class. I told you already I don't play this immob druid build.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2020

    Warriors I suppose can be a soft counter. The dagger shield gs. Or axe shield gs. You got skills that can remove you from being rooted. Leaping skills

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.