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  • stealth says you go invisible but you still take damage??? plz fix tooltip as it is very confusing thank you

  • Vlad Morbius.1759Vlad Morbius.1759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    What is perfectly clear is there are no other classes in game that you need to carry around tricks or traps to fight or engage. As such this means the class is in need of being reworked to the point a skill set, equipment and build is all that is required for any given encounter, period! Regardless of thief being an issue my original statement stands, invisibility is being overused and is creating a slew of problems in WvW which need to be addressed and shouldn't be some crutch used in development and if anything should be considered a last resort.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:
    What is perfectly clear is there are no other classes in game that you need to carry around tricks or traps to fight or engage. As such this means the class is in need of being reworked to the point a skill set, equipment and build is all that is required for any given encounter, period! Regardless of thief being an issue my original statement stands, invisibility is being overused and is creating a slew of problems in WvW which need to be addressed and shouldn't be some crutch used in development and if anything should be considered a last resort.

    You don't need tricks or traps. The main fear I have fighting theives is being locked down at the right time for a burst and that is usually from a split second of stealth if any and that's the moment you want to try to shut down. Don't build to fight stealth, they have to break stealth to do anything to you and they can't block damage with stealth. Build to control and have secondary effects that can compound off of the control. Or don't, whatever.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    and then you will get affected by sentries, tricks/traps, watchtower, marked etc taking away your endure pain/blocks/etc

    well, it would just be endure pain. thief has blocks evades, etc too and they are not effected by revealed, plus they even have an elite that removes reveal.

    but yeah, that seems fine, glad you think it's fine too. perma endure pain (no power dmg at all) on warrior unless you hit the boy with a trap, or mark em with a watchtower/sentry.

    so now to even do direct damage to a warrior you need to use supply or lead him to an objective that can mark him. seems like a great change for the warrior class that would introduce a lot of high skill gameplay.

    finally we can be a too tier high skill class like Thief that needs supply to fight :dizzy:

    I'm excited for this change, but I have another idea too.

    what if when you fight a necromancer- just give me a second here- you are just feared 100% of the time unless you get him with a trap. I know it sounds pretty cool, and you're excited to see what other high skill changes I have in mind for roaming so everyone can display as much skill as those beautiful thief players. so keep tuned. more ideas are in the works.

    perma endure pain warrior. perma fear necro. I'm just getting started. soon every class will be so high skill you'll need supply to fight anyone at all.

    So to make a proper comparison does warrior endure pain skill now constantly need reapplying as well a restocking using a global resource of the warrior to keep up? Can 1 damage types still damage the warrior during endure pain being active like as with how stealth'd opponents can still take all forms of damage?
    Seriously the fact ur comparing a invulnerability skill being constant(in ur discussions) as being the same as stealth in it's current forms shows u guys seriously should not be providing balance input on this game yet.

    obviously you don't know how endure pain work if you have to ask these questions. perhaps take a look at the skill on wiki if you are unsure of its properties (clue it doesn't make you invulnerable to all damage like you seem to think).

    regardless, you missed the point. it's this: why is thief the only class you have to use traps built with supply to fight? why is the counter to stealth builds on Thief using supply to build a trap, when no other build in the game on any other class needs something built with supply to fight it.

    these are obviously not serious balance suggestions, I am making them in jest- but not without purpose. I'm trying to illustrate how ridiculous it would be if every class had a mechanic that had to be countered with a supply built trap to have a good chance of fighting it.

    if necro had a perma boon on it that feared you on attack, unless you used a trap to remove that boon, but they also had an elite skill that reapplied it- that would be pretty silly. imagine having to use supply to build a trap just to fight a necro.

    so when I see people suggesting supply built traps as a way to fight thief, I have to wonder what it would be like for every class. what if every class needed a special supply built trap to fight it, like Thief does? wouldn't that be a meme

    Ur u serious lmao omg. Man if u cant see the difference between a skill that makes u invulnerability to all forms of damage but conditions and cc for a set duration on a cd to a skill that turns u invisible, can be stacked but uses the thief's global resource and does not give the theif any damage immunity or mitigation other than loss of target (unless being a channeled skill) than it is u that needs to go back and read the tooltip, ive been around the game just over 7 yrs, u?.
    As I stated before adding another damage type that effects the warrior while using endure pain sets it on same mitigation lv as invisibility which is none and would make the skill as useless as invisibility would be if most suggestions for it were taken seriously.
    By the way I'm more of a warrior player than teef these days, regardless my point was the comparison is idiotic at best.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing I wonder when reading these comments is pls share ur idea's on how u would design a class based on the rogue archetype? Thief may be called thief but it is gw2's rogue class. Have u guys encountered this clas before in any mmo where invisibility, gank type playstyle, get in get out high mobility low hp/armor that stings hard in quick bursts aren't played heavily into? If most suggested changes asked for in this forum were actually made to thief it would not only be unviable in 99% of situations but would change the playstyle to such a degree that it would no longer function or feel like a rogue class, even if by some miracle was still viable. Do u guys seriously not wonder why these same complaints or very close to are all over the rogue threads in every mmo's forums? Go to eso, wow, bdo(ninja is arguably the rogue like) archeage shadow dancer and other rogue like combinations all see the same hate towards for the same reasons, high damage spikes from stealth or teleports with good disengage potential but low hp and armor, what makes u think gw2 rogue like should be any different or bring about different comments from people who dislike the concept. Point is concept is here to stay and to function within that concept all iterations of rogue like's in mmo's are gonna have the gank from invisibility concept as a big part of their playstyle so accept it or ur just gonna keep wasting time complaining about stuff that will not change anyway.

  • Noir.8561Noir.8561 Member ✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    One thing I wonder when reading these comments is pls share ur idea's on how u would design a class based on the rogue archetype? Thief may be called thief but it is gw2's rogue class. Have u guys encountered this clas before in any mmo where invisibility, gank type playstyle, get in get out high mobility low hp/armor that stings hard in quick bursts aren't played heavily into? If most suggested changes asked for in this forum were actually made to thief it would not only be unviable in 99% of situations but would change the playstyle to such a degree that it would no longer function or feel like a rogue class, even if by some miracle was still viable. Do u guys seriously not wonder why these same complaints or very close to are all over the rogue threads in every mmo's forums? Go to eso, wow, bdo(ninja is arguably the rogue like) archeage shadow dancer and other rogue like combinations all see the same hate towards for the same reasons, high damage spikes from stealth or teleports with good disengage potential but low hp and armor, what makes u think gw2 rogue like should be any different or bring about different comments from people who dislike the concept. Point is concept is here to stay and to function within that concept all iterations of rogue like's in mmo's are gonna have the gank from invisibility concept as a big part of their playstyle so accept it or ur just gonna keep wasting time complaining about stuff that will not change anyway.

    For starters , we could make dot/bleed damage reveal them . Thief can use the mobility to escape/reset the battle or re-stealth when the 6-7 sec Dots , wear out.

    Regreso en un momento

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    @Noir.8561 said:
    For starters , we could make dot/bleed damage reveal them . Thief can use the mobility to escape/reset the battle or re-stealth when the 6-7 sec Dots , wear out.

    That ship kinda sailed when Anet made a game where every class just sorta kittens out conditions constantly at random.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noir.8561 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    One thing I wonder when reading these comments is pls share ur idea's on how u would design a class based on the rogue archetype? Thief may be called thief but it is gw2's rogue class. Have u guys encountered this clas before in any mmo where invisibility, gank type playstyle, get in get out high mobility low hp/armor that stings hard in quick bursts aren't played heavily into? If most suggested changes asked for in this forum were actually made to thief it would not only be unviable in 99% of situations but would change the playstyle to such a degree that it would no longer function or feel like a rogue class, even if by some miracle was still viable. Do u guys seriously not wonder why these same complaints or very close to are all over the rogue threads in every mmo's forums? Go to eso, wow, bdo(ninja is arguably the rogue like) archeage shadow dancer and other rogue like combinations all see the same hate towards for the same reasons, high damage spikes from stealth or teleports with good disengage potential but low hp and armor, what makes u think gw2 rogue like should be any different or bring about different comments from people who dislike the concept. Point is concept is here to stay and to function within that concept all iterations of rogue like's in mmo's are gonna have the gank from invisibility concept as a big part of their playstyle so accept it or ur just gonna keep wasting time complaining about stuff that will not change anyway.

    For starters , we could make dot/bleed damage reveal them . Thief can use the mobility to escape/reset the battle or re-stealth when the 6-7 sec Dots , wear out.

    Honestly if gw2 wasnt so brain dead spammy especially with aoe condi etc then I'd agree u are right that would be a great addition to stealth.
    My ideal stealth has a 6 second cap reapliable stealth where the player is revealed if damaged, everything else remaining the same as is now and lastly all the marks removed from wvw. That being said I know that because stealth has been basically the same since its addition I'm pretty confident nothing significant about the mechanics of stealth will change in the future so why bother.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

  • choovanski.5462choovanski.5462 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    talking to Thief players in this thread in a nutshell

    It's coming for me through the trees
    Help me someone
    Help me please
    Take my shoes off and throw them in the lake

  • choovanski.5462choovanski.5462 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    and then you will get affected by sentries, tricks/traps, watchtower, marked etc taking away your endure pain/blocks/etc

    well, it would just be endure pain. thief has blocks evades, etc too and they are not effected by revealed, plus they even have an elite that removes reveal.

    but yeah, that seems fine, glad you think it's fine too. perma endure pain (no power dmg at all) on warrior unless you hit the boy with a trap, or mark em with a watchtower/sentry.

    so now to even do direct damage to a warrior you need to use supply or lead him to an objective that can mark him. seems like a great change for the warrior class that would introduce a lot of high skill gameplay.

    finally we can be a too tier high skill class like Thief that needs supply to fight :dizzy:

    I'm excited for this change, but I have another idea too.

    what if when you fight a necromancer- just give me a second here- you are just feared 100% of the time unless you get him with a trap. I know it sounds pretty cool, and you're excited to see what other high skill changes I have in mind for roaming so everyone can display as much skill as those beautiful thief players. so keep tuned. more ideas are in the works.

    perma endure pain warrior. perma fear necro. I'm just getting started. soon every class will be so high skill you'll need supply to fight anyone at all.

    So to make a proper comparison does warrior endure pain skill now constantly need reapplying as well a restocking using a global resource of the warrior to keep up? Can 1 damage types still damage the warrior during endure pain being active like as with how stealth'd opponents can still take all forms of damage?
    Seriously the fact ur comparing a invulnerability skill being constant(in ur discussions) as being the same as stealth in it's current forms shows u guys seriously should not be providing balance input on this game yet.

    obviously you don't know how endure pain work if you have to ask these questions. perhaps take a look at the skill on wiki if you are unsure of its properties (clue it doesn't make you invulnerable to all damage like you seem to think).

    regardless, you missed the point. it's this: why is thief the only class you have to use traps built with supply to fight? why is the counter to stealth builds on Thief using supply to build a trap, when no other build in the game on any other class needs something built with supply to fight it.

    these are obviously not serious balance suggestions, I am making them in jest- but not without purpose. I'm trying to illustrate how ridiculous it would be if every class had a mechanic that had to be countered with a supply built trap to have a good chance of fighting it.

    if necro had a perma boon on it that feared you on attack, unless you used a trap to remove that boon, but they also had an elite skill that reapplied it- that would be pretty silly. imagine having to use supply to build a trap just to fight a necro.

    so when I see people suggesting supply built traps as a way to fight thief, I have to wonder what it would be like for every class. what if every class needed a special supply built trap to fight it, like Thief does? wouldn't that be a meme

    Ur u serious lmao omg. Man if u cant see the difference between a skill that makes u invulnerability to all forms of damage but conditions and cc for a set duration on a cd to a skill that turns u invisible, can be stacked but uses the thief's global resource and does not give the theif any damage immunity or mitigation other than loss of target (unless being a channeled skill) than it is u that needs to go back and read the tooltip, ive been around the game just over 7 yrs, u?.
    As I stated before adding another damage type that effects the warrior while using endure pain sets it on same mitigation lv as invisibility which is none and would make the skill as useless as invisibility would be if most suggestions for it were taken seriously.
    By the way I'm more of a warrior player than teef these days, regardless my point was the comparison is idiotic at best.

    not my fault you can't type properly or understand my post. you are so focused on the endure pain Vs stealth comparison you are unable to see the point I'm making. that's why I brought up fear on necro, but you didn't understand. sorry man, I can't low ball this low enough for you.

    It's coming for me through the trees
    Help me someone
    Help me please
    Take my shoes off and throw them in the lake

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    talking to Thief players in this thread in a nutshell

    More like talking to thief players for the past 8 years. :/

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @choovanski.5462 said:

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    and then you will get affected by sentries, tricks/traps, watchtower, marked etc taking away your endure pain/blocks/etc

    well, it would just be endure pain. thief has blocks evades, etc too and they are not effected by revealed, plus they even have an elite that removes reveal.

    but yeah, that seems fine, glad you think it's fine too. perma endure pain (no power dmg at all) on warrior unless you hit the boy with a trap, or mark em with a watchtower/sentry.

    so now to even do direct damage to a warrior you need to use supply or lead him to an objective that can mark him. seems like a great change for the warrior class that would introduce a lot of high skill gameplay.

    finally we can be a too tier high skill class like Thief that needs supply to fight :dizzy:

    I'm excited for this change, but I have another idea too.

    what if when you fight a necromancer- just give me a second here- you are just feared 100% of the time unless you get him with a trap. I know it sounds pretty cool, and you're excited to see what other high skill changes I have in mind for roaming so everyone can display as much skill as those beautiful thief players. so keep tuned. more ideas are in the works.

    perma endure pain warrior. perma fear necro. I'm just getting started. soon every class will be so high skill you'll need supply to fight anyone at all.

    So to make a proper comparison does warrior endure pain skill now constantly need reapplying as well a restocking using a global resource of the warrior to keep up? Can 1 damage types still damage the warrior during endure pain being active like as with how stealth'd opponents can still take all forms of damage?
    Seriously the fact ur comparing a invulnerability skill being constant(in ur discussions) as being the same as stealth in it's current forms shows u guys seriously should not be providing balance input on this game yet.

    obviously you don't know how endure pain work if you have to ask these questions. perhaps take a look at the skill on wiki if you are unsure of its properties (clue it doesn't make you invulnerable to all damage like you seem to think).

    regardless, you missed the point. it's this: why is thief the only class you have to use traps built with supply to fight? why is the counter to stealth builds on Thief using supply to build a trap, when no other build in the game on any other class needs something built with supply to fight it.

    these are obviously not serious balance suggestions, I am making them in jest- but not without purpose. I'm trying to illustrate how ridiculous it would be if every class had a mechanic that had to be countered with a supply built trap to have a good chance of fighting it.

    if necro had a perma boon on it that feared you on attack, unless you used a trap to remove that boon, but they also had an elite skill that reapplied it- that would be pretty silly. imagine having to use supply to build a trap just to fight a necro.

    so when I see people suggesting supply built traps as a way to fight thief, I have to wonder what it would be like for every class. what if every class needed a special supply built trap to fight it, like Thief does? wouldn't that be a meme

    Ur u serious lmao omg. Man if u cant see the difference between a skill that makes u invulnerability to all forms of damage but conditions and cc for a set duration on a cd to a skill that turns u invisible, can be stacked but uses the thief's global resource and does not give the theif any damage immunity or mitigation other than loss of target (unless being a channeled skill) than it is u that needs to go back and read the tooltip, ive been around the game just over 7 yrs, u?.
    As I stated before adding another damage type that effects the warrior while using endure pain sets it on same mitigation lv as invisibility which is none and would make the skill as useless as invisibility would be if most suggestions for it were taken seriously.
    By the way I'm more of a warrior player than teef these days, regardless my point was the comparison is idiotic at best.

    not my fault you can't type properly or understand my post. you are so focused on the endure pain Vs stealth comparison you are unable to see the point I'm making. that's why I brought up fear on necro, but you didn't understand. sorry man, I can't low ball this low enough for you.

    Nope! Just focused on the idiotic comparison of a perma endure pain and how its equates to stealth, the fact post followed that comparison as if it actually made any sense shows a lot regarding how serious a player should take these and most other threads in this forum :)

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭

    When you see us give a tip of using traps painters Vs thieves to help you out, we never said it was to give you a fair shot, to be on par. We say that it's giving you an unfair advantage over them so abuse of it. Especially if your already not a good roamer, it makes no sense to not use it (and come here to complain for years on end when Anet gave you a unique anti mechanic cheat tool).

    I'll be copy pasting this again in a few months again hopefully and not weeks or days...

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:
    The stealth trap isn't really an "I want to beat thieves" mechanic, it's an "I don't want to fight thieves" mechanic.

    I see it more as a "get your kitten eyeballs checked and stop the 2 guys that's been running 5 times around our border unopposed when there are 20 people AFK in spawn" mechanic.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka in combat. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually isnt.

    But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

    "Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka in combat. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually isnt.

    But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

    "Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .
    He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything
    If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .
    Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise . Maul/pet major attacks/ Huge leap attack are easy to evade .

    You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    Hellsing Abridged, JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass , Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep)
    Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh ,Kamen no Maid Guy,Kenichi, Ouran Koukou
    Yamato Nadeshiko, Haré+Guu(5th)..Old animes: BLUE NOAH,Plawres Sanshiro,Sexy Commando

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka in combat. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually isnt.

    But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

    "Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

    The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

    He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

    Incorrect, see above.

    If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

    Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

    Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

    Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

    You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

    No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

  • Mhhh, i know this is a really neverending story, ... thieves and stealth and stealth and thieves.

    There is only one mechanic in this game who affects the player behind the Monitor and not the toon, which is controlled by him, ... and that is stealth. And that is the problem. The ability to let your opponent completely clueless, if u are retreating or attacking or doing whatever you want is not counterable. Any other (defensive or offensive used) tool (Blocks, endure pain, invuln, ...) can be seen by the opponent and you can react properly. More important, you can prepare yourself for the time after, simply because you can see, where your opponent is and where he is going. I can get close or retreat, find a good timing for my burst or whatever.

    When a thief is entering stealth, it becomes a guessing game. The thief can not be targeted anymore, which means, the majority of the weapon skills becomes useless. AOE works, but we are here in WvW and its not about holding narrow points like in PVP and hitting a invisible target with high mobility in a wide area is kinda playing lottery.
    Also preparing for the time after stealth is pointless. U cant get in range to a target that u cant see, u cant set up a burst to finish a thief off, because u dont know, when and where he will appear again, neither time blocks or something for his next burst. Its simply guessing.

    So, the problem is, fighting and winning against thief means most of the time u were lucky or the thief overcommitted. If a thief does not want to die, he does not and is still capable of killing and ganking without any fear of getting caught. Thats because stealth (or too much stealth) enables thieves to control everything. They can see what u are doing but u cant see them.

    I have no solution for this problem and there were many suggestions made for that. No need to repeat them all.

    If other mechanics would work like stealth, my monitor would turn black if my toon is blinded (like in FPS Games) for example. But stealth is the only mechanic that does this and that is what makes it so powerful (at least in roaming situations). Being seen by the player but not targetable in game (the other possible implication of stealth, seen in StarCraft2 for example) would be pretty weak on the other hand.

    Have fun and dont get mad, we are all enjoying the same game.

    Jimmy

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka in combat. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually isnt.

    But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

    "Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

    The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

    He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

    Incorrect, see above.

    If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

    Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

    Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

    Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

    You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

    No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

    Taking by suprice , you gain more distance . if you believe you are not safe use 2x dodges
    You gain stealth at the start oif the cast, i have posted videos in the past . Show us with a video it cant .
    Barrage need to be full on 100% on target to do all damage .Othwerwise most of the grenaes will miss

    Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

    Hellsing Abridged, JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass , Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep)
    Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh ,Kamen no Maid Guy,Kenichi, Ouran Koukou
    Yamato Nadeshiko, Haré+Guu(5th)..Old animes: BLUE NOAH,Plawres Sanshiro,Sexy Commando

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka in combat. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually isnt.

    But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

    "Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

    The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

    He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

    Incorrect, see above.

    If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

    Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

    Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

    Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

    You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

    No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

    Taking by suprice , you gain more distance . if you believe you are not safe use 2x dodges

    If the only way to use stealth to "get out of jail free" is starting with "get out of jail free", then stealth did nothing.

    You gain stealth at the start oif the cast, i have posted videos in the past . Show us with a video it cant .

    You do not. Here. Stealth only activates at the end of the dash. You have admitted before you know absolutely nothing about thief, why keep talking about it?

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka in combat. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually isnt.

    But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

    "Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

    The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

    He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

    Incorrect, see above.

    If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

    Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

    Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

    Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

    You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

    No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

    Taking by suprice , you gain more distance . if you believe you are not safe use 2x dodges

    If the only way to use stealth to "get out of jail free" is starting with "get out of jail free", then stealth did nothing.

    You gain stealth at the start oif the cast, i have posted videos in the past . Show us with a video it cant .

    You do not. Here. Stealth only activates at the end of the dash. You have admitted before you know absolutely nothing about thief, why keep talking about it?

    No , you had problem that Bull rush will track you in stealth and he will kill you

    https://imgur.com/a/1ZwXDYO
    Stealth activates 0,1 sec after the start of the cast and the icon shows with delay BEFOR E YOU TOUCH THE GROUND

    Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

    Hellsing Abridged, JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass , Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep)
    Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh ,Kamen no Maid Guy,Kenichi, Ouran Koukou
    Yamato Nadeshiko, Haré+Guu(5th)..Old animes: BLUE NOAH,Plawres Sanshiro,Sexy Commando

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka in combat. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually isnt.

    But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

    "Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

    The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

    He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

    Incorrect, see above.

    If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

    Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

    Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

    Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

    You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

    No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

    Taking by suprice , you gain more distance . if you believe you are not safe use 2x dodges

    If the only way to use stealth to "get out of jail free" is starting with "get out of jail free", then stealth did nothing.

    You gain stealth at the start oif the cast, i have posted videos in the past . Show us with a video it cant .

    You do not. Here. Stealth only activates at the end of the dash. You have admitted before you know absolutely nothing about thief, why keep talking about it?

    No , you had problem that Bull rush will track you in stealth and he will kill you

    Youre not even saying anything here.

    https://imgur.com/a/1ZwXDYO
    Stealth activates 0,1 sec after the start of the cast and the icon shows with delay BEFOR E YOU TOUCH THE GROUND

    You posted a video which ... confirms what I said. Thats stealth at the end of the cast. Thats not 0.1 seconds, thats 0.75 seconds. So, were done here? Youre gonna stop trolling? Yes? Good.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka in combat. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually isnt.

    But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

    "Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

    The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

    He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

    Incorrect, see above.

    If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

    Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

    Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

    Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

    You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

    No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

    Taking by suprice , you gain more distance . if you believe you are not safe use 2x dodges

    If the only way to use stealth to "get out of jail free" is starting with "get out of jail free", then stealth did nothing.

    You gain stealth at the start oif the cast, i have posted videos in the past . Show us with a video it cant .

    You do not. Here. Stealth only activates at the end of the dash. You have admitted before you know absolutely nothing about thief, why keep talking about it?

    No , you had problem that Bull rush will track you in stealth and he will kill you

    Youre not even saying anything here.

    https://imgur.com/a/1ZwXDYO
    Stealth activates 0,1 sec after the start of the cast and the icon shows with delay BEFOR E YOU TOUCH THE GROUND

    You posted a video which ... confirms what I said. Thats stealth at the end of the cast. Thats not 0.1 seconds, thats 0.75 seconds. So, were done here? Youre gonna stop trolling? Yes? Good.

    Let me copy paste you argument with the other player to refesh your memory :

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    It seems here you have problem with Bull charge that can track you and kill you , while you attempted stealth
    While with me you are saying that 2 dodges will help you survive .
    So Bull charge is easy counter-able , why you whined to him ?:P

    Stealth at the start , watch the siluete And the stealth icon pops BEFORE THE 0,75 :)
    I have never seen an Thief stealth at the end of the animation , in internet videos . He gain stealths when he ''jump'' ,does 2-3k without loosing stealth and his ready to backstab

    Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

    Hellsing Abridged, JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass , Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep)
    Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh ,Kamen no Maid Guy,Kenichi, Ouran Koukou
    Yamato Nadeshiko, Haré+Guu(5th)..Old animes: BLUE NOAH,Plawres Sanshiro,Sexy Commando

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    9 initiative isnt all of your initiative, but its most of it. The thief doesnt have to be in melee range to be punished. He just has to be in range. Aka in combat. And its not like not going for backstab is much better. Stealth is terrible when used in combat. What I described is using it in combat. But you know that it is terrible in combat. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to try and insinuate something is a terrible design in an area where it actually isnt.

    But just to make it clear to you, let me put your argument in the same language you just used.

    "Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    If you are 500 yards (use Dash to escape -450 yards) away and use use BlackPowder and heartseeker , you will be 950 yard away , 50 more than bull charge can reach you .

    The Warrior doesnt have to wait until the thief finishes to use it. Thats the whole point.

    He will travel up to that point and wont knockback anything

    Incorrect, see above.

    If necro dont use Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/ , at the time you first apper ,he wont have anything to pressure you and force you to stealth and run away .

    Death Strike is a Revenant skill. Also, someone has not played Necro. Or Revenant.

    Rapid fire , once again he wont do any damage otherwise .

    Or Ranger, apparently. Arent you supposed to be a ranger player?

    You gain stealth at the start of the animation 0,1 sec after you can Blackpowder+heartseeker and mid air YOU CAN SWAP WEAPON AND STOP THE TRAVELING DISTANCE OF THE HEARTSEEKER WHILE STEALTH , this is how enginner use the Elixir 4 -leap /cancel cast (ifyou play enginner)while the enemy enginner will throw the Grenade Barrage , in the area he believe you normaly you will land

    No, thats not how it works. If it did, itd make permastealthing easier. You only get stealth at the end of the cast, and weaponswapping still locks you. Also, I hit Grenade Barrage on the midpoint anyway. So whoops.

    No, the reason there is "no point explaining it to me" is because you know you cant explain it. You have no argument. You know youre wrong. Youre just too proud to admit it.

    Ah yes, your "repeat things without having an actual point behind them" shtick. It was tiresome before, it still is. Mind just not posting? We dont need your trolling here.

    Taking by suprice , you gain more distance . if you believe you are not safe use 2x dodges

    If the only way to use stealth to "get out of jail free" is starting with "get out of jail free", then stealth did nothing.

    You gain stealth at the start oif the cast, i have posted videos in the past . Show us with a video it cant .

    You do not. Here. Stealth only activates at the end of the dash. You have admitted before you know absolutely nothing about thief, why keep talking about it?

    No , you had problem that Bull rush will track you in stealth and he will kill you

    Youre not even saying anything here.

    https://imgur.com/a/1ZwXDYO
    Stealth activates 0,1 sec after the start of the cast and the icon shows with delay BEFOR E YOU TOUCH THE GROUND

    You posted a video which ... confirms what I said. Thats stealth at the end of the cast. Thats not 0.1 seconds, thats 0.75 seconds. So, were done here? Youre gonna stop trolling? Yes? Good.

    Let me copy paste you argument with the other player to refesh your memory :

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @jpsssss.7530 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Why not just limit Stealth Attack window instead of making a mess like that?

    Stealth attacks aren't the issue. The issue is thief literally has so many on command stealth abilities and that stealth is the best defensive (and offensive if you're a condi build) tool in the game with no real counter play.

    Stealth is the worst defensive tool. Block, Evade, Invuln are all far better. Hell its so bad at it Im not even sure stealth counts as a defensive tool.

    Sure it is. Except you can use it whenever you want and in combination with other skills. If stealth were one skill that lasted 3 seconds, required a channel, and had a 50s cd the way invuln does nobody would have a problem with it! But no. Stealth is an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it. Worst design in the game.

    "You can use it whenever you want", uh, as opposed to blocks, invulns and evades which ... you also can use whenever you want? Hell, its worse than that, because Evades, Blocks and Invulns tend to activate instantly, whereas stealth does not, and usually has a lengthy cast time. Also, "you can use it in combination with other skills", in that case its those other skills doing all the work, and invisiblity provided next to nothing. Stealth is not "an auto disengage with way too few restrictions on it" (quite the opposite, its the only way a thief can get himself killed). Shortbow 5 is that.

    Like I said. Too much stealth and mobility. Too few counters and restrictions. A class that is designed to be unhittable and to escape from any fight whenever they want is poor design.

    Too much mobility you can argue. Too much stealth? Stealth is not even useful outside of out of combat scenarios, and in those cases "too much" seems to mean "any access to it at all". Thief is not at all designed to be unhittable (quite the opposite. If the thief doesnt run, theyre one of the easiest classes to hit. Part of why they always have to run). And sure, you could argue that thief always being able to escape from any fight is problematic. But A, that has nothing to do with stealth and is an entirely different conversation, and B, so can Warrior and Ranger, and I dont see you calling for their head.

    Talking to you is pointless. Stealth is a massive advantage, particularly the completely unrestricted version of it they use in this game. It's been explained to you a million times. Agree to disagree. In my opinion, we need to spend less time disengaging and more time fighting.

    If youre unwilling to ever consider the possibility that youre wrong, then yes, talking to the guy who points out that youre wrong is pointless for you. Because youre wrong. Stealth is good, at times problematic, but not for the reasons you say. Its an incredible offensive tool out of combat. It lets you hide cast times and get the drop on enemies who never knew you were even there. But as a defensive tool? Its bad. Its the worst defensive tool by far, and most of the time its worse than just not using it in the first place.

    Sure, I can agree with that. But that would require a WvW split on infiltrators arrow, a nerf to it, and massive buffs to thieves 1v1 capabilities, because currently they are trash.

    Why is stealth pointless while in combat? Nobody really bothers to try a kill a d/p thief but a stealthess s/d or staff theif is a different story, ? Because their stealth is so low and are 90% visable.

    Becausse its not good? In order to enter stealth, thief usually uses Black Powder + Heartseeker. This is a 1.25 second total animation time with no defense, that the thief is locked into. This is a free opportunity to do damage. And then, what does thief get out of it? Stealth. Its offensive capabilities are low. Its good for hiding long channels or windups, but thief has neither of those. Backstab does good damage, but how exactly do you get a backstab off on an enemy facing you? So thats out. What about defense? Well, not being visible sounds nice. Until you realise, melee attacks still hit you and allow the enemy to track you. Channeled attacks continue to hit. AoEs still hit. And even targetted ranged attacks, the one category that it stops somewhat, continues to hit for a second or two before stealth breaks it. Oh and while youre in stealth you obviously cant fight back.

    Why is stealth pointless in combat, may be a lot of us are clueless so explain why it's pointless, tell us please.

    Well, in short, using stealth in combat is just inviting free hits for no benefit whatsoever. Thats why you dont use it in combat. And if a thief is bad enough to use it? Just kill them. Its the only way a thief is gonna die after all.

    Your perspective is so stupidly biased there's no point in talking to you.

    Ah yes. The "I have no counterargument but I dont want to admit I have no counterargument so Ill just say the other guy is biased. Because famously Engineer is an elite spec of thief" strategy. Mate, I dont play thief outside of PvE anymore. I play against thief. And I welcome any thief that is stupid enough to use stealth in combat. Theyre free kills. So even your sad attempt at ad hominem is a miserable failure.

    Hurr durr stealth is used by burning all of your initiative while standing at melee range so you can backstab for 3k. Do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this? Obviously, stealth is terrible if you use it that way. But that's not how thief uses stealth. Of course, you know that. You just enjoy making up straw man arguments to defend a terrible design. Like I said, there's no point in explaining it to you. You're being deliberately obtuse.

    Hurr Durr when the thief goes into stealth the enemy will be polite enough to do nothing instead of grenade barragin/rapid firing/Ghastly Clawing/Death Striking/Bull Rushing/True Shotting/etc. etc. Because as we all know punishing huge mistakes is just impolite. And WvW players are nothing if not incredibly polite". (Note how not a single skill I mention is melee).

    It seems here you have problem with Bull charge that can track you and kill you , while you attempted stealth

    Which part of "I dont play thief" is too hard to understand? Thats not me having the issue. Thats the thief who stealths up having the issue.

    While with me you are saying that 2 dodges will help you survive .

    You cant dodge while trying to enter stealth. Thats why its so easily punishable.

    So Bull charge is easy counter-able , why you whined to him ?:P

    Which part of "using it to punish stealth" is too hard to understand?

    Stealth at the start , watch the siluete And the stealth icon pops BEFORE THE 0,75 :)

    Its stealth at the end. Watch the silhouette. See how it only becomes transparent after the stealth icon pops? Which is after 0.75 seconds.

    I have never seen an Thief stealth at the end of the animation , in internet videos . He gain stealths when he ''jump''

    You literally just posted an example yourself. I already posted an example. Stop trolling.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    And we agreed that bull rush can be avoided with 2 dodges then stealth
    If he is coming to u and manage to hit you , do stadowstep
    I have posted proof-example . Stop trolling.

    I'm confused why you all are even having this argument when Bull Rush can also be avoided with a single normal dodge and zero stealth.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Alymer.3406 said:

    @AikijinX.6258 said:
    The Problem is that Anet gave Stealth access to almost every class, when it was supposed to be unique to Thieves and I suppose Mesmers. Every class has some type of uniqueness to them, while ironically Thieves have had their uniqueness in Stealth stolen as well as heavily neutered, with all these abilities placing Reveal and Marked on them.

    Too much stealth- People complain
    Too much evade- People complain
    Too much damage- People complain
    Too much mobility- People complain
    Too many teleports- People complain
    Too much blind- People complain
    Too many spammable skills- People complain
    Too much access to poison- People complain
    Too much condition capability- People complain
    Ability to Teleport allies- People Complain

    People need to chill.

    Mh, what makes thief powerful is the WvW maps. Maximum mobility + stealth + huge maps allowing the thief to break combat. Initiative regenerates and the thief can come back to try the burst again. It's more just too much evade and mobility with any amount of stealth on a big map where the thief can just go in any which way (And hitting a stealthed target doesn't show any sort of tell or give any sort of feedback that, yes, you've found them.)

    I hear they can also turn into an autobot and jump over the castle walls and then smash the lord dead with a metal giant fly swatter.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    (And hitting a stealthed target doesn't show any sort of tell or give any sort of feedback that, yes, you've found them.)

    This should be fixed some in the UI (I propose just giving you damage floaters above your own character), but you can actually see you've hit someone from:
    1. the combat log (ewww)
    2. skill chain icons cycling

  • Here's an idea: make stealth a boon and revealed a condition. Stealth gets corrupted to revealed.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @archmagus.7249 said:
    Here's an idea: make stealth a boon and revealed a condition. Stealth gets corrupted to revealed.

    Let's keep corruption out of this mess, the necromancer don't really need more hate for this mechanism that ANet keep on forcing onto them as the divine solution to all of the necromancer's issues.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2020

    Right now its more movement impairing is out of hand... Immobilize anyone? Of course together with trapper runes, so we are back to invis being OP..

  • @aspirine.6852 said:
    Right now its more movement impairing is out of hand... Immobilize anyone? Of course together with trapper runes, so we are back to invis being OP..

    Immob and other snares aren't OP. People just aren't running skills/traits/runes which remove them or make snares less effective because those typically also increase movement speed, and why would you want better movement speed when you move faster on a warclaw even without traits? Pre-warclaw nearly every engineer build needed a way for permanent movement speed buffs. That meant you needed either the anti-snare inventions mecha-legs, or the tools streamlined kits. Not exactly good for the engineer's already limited build diversity.

    At least you can defend yourself when snared. Put up a block, protection, invulnerability, skills which evade will still work.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2020

    Get a thief in your own group and stop complaining. They have Obv the same amount of mobi and can chase the thief off annoying your "blob". If yall continue to only rely on having guards/revs/eles/warris in your group then its on you. If you complain about that One thief singling out straggler,maybe get a thief on your own insted of asking for nerfs.

    You also have a throwable stealth trap + another stealthtrap avaiable Ontop of the normal counter reveals,aoe spamm and projectiles that follow through stealth and being able to rotate 100% projectile destroy/reflect. You people dont want a "counter",you want More counter because you lack the ability to deal with them with what you have available already.

    In other words,youre only as good as the amount of people you have behind you.

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

    This is beyond stupid.

    Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

    You've been asking this for 7 years. Aren't you bored yet?

    100% this^ seriously except that even though u don't like it others do and it's always been part of the game and isnt going to see any significant changes after 8+ years, seriously.

    since I am playing for less than 5, I can't ask for it for 7.

    That said, so far I haven't seen any reason to keep stealth.

    The last sentence totally disregards the fact that a lot of people like stealth gameplay and a lot learned to play against it which tells me ur mentality. Instead of spending time on this forum talking nonsense use that time to improve at the game, just a helpful tip for ya :)

    I play a lot, and a lot of talk in game is 'this stealth kitten is so boring'. Or 'I wish stealth was gone, this stealth/restealth dance is annoying'.

    It has nothing to do with 'improve at the game'. Stealth is inherently broken. It punishes people who do nothing wrong and rewards players that play the most toxic style.

    Stealth must go away. There is no way to fix it,

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    stealth destroys any guild fighting. Both groups try to outstealth each other and the side which pulls it off, wins. This results in up to 10min of both groups moving around, retreating whenever the other side stealths up.

    This is beyond stupid.

    Anet, remove stealth from wvw. It is toxic, it makes the game more boring. It has no reason to exist and no valid defense to keep it.

    You've been asking this for 7 years. Aren't you bored yet?

    100% this^ seriously except that even though u don't like it others do and it's always been part of the game and isnt going to see any significant changes after 8+ years, seriously.

    since I am playing for less than 5, I can't ask for it for 7.

    That said, so far I haven't seen any reason to keep stealth.

    The last sentence totally disregards the fact that a lot of people like stealth gameplay and a lot learned to play against it which tells me ur mentality. Instead of spending time on this forum talking nonsense use that time to improve at the game, just a helpful tip for ya :)

    I play a lot, and a lot of talk in game is 'this stealth kitten is so boring'. Or 'I wish stealth was gone, this stealth/restealth dance is annoying'.

    It has nothing to do with 'improve at the game'. Stealth is inherently broken. It punishes people who do nothing wrong and rewards players that play the most toxic style.

    Stealth must go away. There is no way to fix it,

    Naw u just need to accept that its here to stay and that a lot of people DO enjoy it, what's boring is the constant whining about the same mechanic for years on end expecting anything to change cuz THEY dont like the mechanic disregarding other playstyles that other people Do like just cuz they dont. Go play a mmo without stealth if u have a problem with it, it's part of the game accept it, U are the one with the prob not gw2 for having stealth :)

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Get a thief in your own group and stop complaining. They have Obv the same amount of mobi and can chase the thief off annoying your "blob". If yall continue to only rely on having guards/revs/eles/warris in your group then its on you. If you complain about that One thief singling out straggler,maybe get a thief on your own insted of asking for nerfs.

    You also have a throwable stealth trap + another stealthtrap avaiable Ontop of the normal counter reveals,aoe spamm and projectiles that follow through stealth and being able to rotate 100% projectile destroy/reflect. You people dont want a "counter",you want More counter because you lack the ability to deal with them with what you have available already.

    In other words,youre only as good as the amount of people you have behind you.

    As a roamer everything you've just said means little. I don't play in zergs, that's where people who don't know how to pvp or WvW roam go to hide their shame! As far as playing a thief, thanks but i don't do chicken kitten builds either so try again. Either way nothing is balanced properly if you need to carry traps in order to engage or to fight. Like i said at the beginning thief isn't the only problem invisibility and how it paired to other skills is what makes it OP and the skill itself is becoming too common in class builds, so that is the really problem.

    No one should need traps. He suggested You may find them useful, against chicken kitten builds.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Get a thief in your own group and stop complaining. They have Obv the same amount of mobi and can chase the thief off annoying your "blob". If yall continue to only rely on having guards/revs/eles/warris in your group then its on you. If you complain about that One thief singling out straggler,maybe get a thief on your own insted of asking for nerfs.

    You also have a throwable stealth trap + another stealthtrap avaiable Ontop of the normal counter reveals,aoe spamm and projectiles that follow through stealth and being able to rotate 100% projectile destroy/reflect. You people dont want a "counter",you want More counter because you lack the ability to deal with them with what you have available already.

    In other words,youre only as good as the amount of people you have behind you.

    As a roamer everything you've just said means little. I don't play in zergs, that's where people who don't know how to pvp or WvW roam go to hide their shame! As far as playing a thief, thanks but i don't do chicken kitten builds either so try again. Either way nothing is balanced properly if you need to carry traps in order to engage or to fight. Like i said at the beginning thief isn't the only problem invisibility and how it paired to other skills is what makes it OP and the skill itself is becoming too common in class builds, so that is the really problem.

    No one should need traps. He suggested You may find them useful, against chicken kitten builds.

    I have seen a shadow arts d/p thief drop a stealth trap vs another shadow arts d/p theif once. Such honor

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2020

    @Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:
    Get a thief in your own group and stop complaining. They have Obv the same amount of mobi and can chase the thief off annoying your "blob". If yall continue to only rely on having guards/revs/eles/warris in your group then its on you. If you complain about that One thief singling out straggler,maybe get a thief on your own insted of asking for nerfs.

    You also have a throwable stealth trap + another stealthtrap avaiable Ontop of the normal counter reveals,aoe spamm and projectiles that follow through stealth and being able to rotate 100% projectile destroy/reflect. You people dont want a "counter",you want More counter because you lack the ability to deal with them with what you have available already.

    In other words,youre only as good as the amount of people you have behind you.

    As a roamer everything you've just said means little. I don't play in zergs, that's where people who don't know how to pvp or WvW roam go to hide their shame! As far as playing a thief, thanks but i don't do chicken kitten builds either so try again. Either way nothing is balanced properly if you need to carry traps in order to engage or to fight. Like i said at the beginning thief isn't the only problem invisibility and how it paired to other skills is what makes it OP and the skill itself is becoming too common in class builds, so that is the really problem.

    You dont need to use traps. I said its an Add on what you have available already to counter them. you refusing to use them,while its a complete hard counter,is rlly an issue on your side. Complain instead of using what you have available. Im not about to repeat myself as how you can counter them because thats something you completely ignored while you keep on screaming "OP".