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No use fighting it anymore

Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭

Seems the nerf train is continuing with no signs of stopping. Instead of fighting it, I may as well add my own voice to the mob and maybe get something out of it.

Ahem:

Pls nerf condi trapper ranger. It's an unfun degen build. Entangle is a buggy mess with some skills not even being able to target roots properly. It has a decent tell, but this is completely negated when you can just cast from stealth. It's unfun cheese and does not belong in PvP.

Ty :)

Comments

  • Tanbin.2436Tanbin.2436 Member ✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Seems the nerf train is continuing with no signs of stopping. Instead of fighting it, I may as well add my own voice to the mob and maybe get something out of it.

    Ahem:

    Pls nerf condi trapper ranger. It's an unfun degen build. Entangle is a buggy mess with some skills not even being able to target roots properly. It has a decent tell, but this is completely negated when you can just cast from stealth. It's unfun cheese and does not belong in PvP.

    Ty :)

    So the problem is the runes, not the build? This is literally the same issue as DH Trapper or any class that can be viable with rune cheese. This is why they don't listen to you, outside of them really not caring about the game mode - you make no sense and ask for nerfs for the incorrect things.

    If ranger traps and entangle is trash outside of trapper runes, then it's trash (because it wouldn't be used ever without the runes and it's literally a gimmick) and shouldn't be nerfed and the rune should be nerfed. Otherwise, you're nerfing something that's trash and then when they nerf the runes eventually because it also makes other specs annoying, it'll continue to be trash.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    HP of the roots should be reduced by 33% (any summoned clutter actually needs the nerf bat) and the reapplication needs some work since cleansing and being rooted again by the same skill is dumb. Also yes I play this monkey kitten build for the lolz, it is not busted as burn DH but I can cause someone permanent annoyance if I so choose.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    For me the problems with this build are:

    • unblockable + pulsing + combo field + condi traps: Unblockable is way too powerful when most blocks have like 25-30 secs cd and only last 3 secs at best. Either remove the combo field but keep the condi, either remove the condi but keep the combo field. Stacking both is beyond stupid. And definitevely remove unblockable. Unblockable + pulsing is another kind of combo that should not exist on any skill.
    • Shortbow. Have any of you noticed how fast sb AA cast? It's faster than renegade/thief sb AA by (extremely) far. Actually, I'm pretty sure it's the fastest AA in the game. Not only that but all ranger's sb skills have almost no cast and definitively have 0 animations. The whole kit is undodgeable.

    I personally think entangle is fine. It's an elite, it's supposed to be broken/annoying. Actually, it works just like Chrono's elite. The problem is ancient seed. This trait enables any CC skill to function just like a 60s cd elite skill but on 20s cd. The trait should be deleted.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Why are you expecting buffs when nobody is calling them when deserved and all we can find is outliers that the initial patch missed?

    Makes no sense.

    Nobody is putting an effort in making suggestions that are elaborated for ideas to be tipped in as well.

    As far I've noticed when people do suggest "one" thing it's all in vacuum without much consideration of anything else anyway.

    Super drastic changes that completely change fundamentals with more than can be done.

    At this rate it is really true that people complain because they can, gameplay is an extremely good state right now and we have this unbearable negativity that despite all efforts think that the game was better before...

    It objectively wasn't.

    Well... there are not specific suggestions cuz you cannot fix garbage by increasing damage of a skill by 5-10%. The whole system needs to be readjusted to the equivalent of infamous Feb 2020 balance patch. And the sentiment that damage is too low and the game is bunker haven is widely shared.

    Keep in mind, most players who think the current spvp is garbage stopped playing and mostly posting. You are in the echo chamber of whoever is left. And even among this group, many think the balance is kitten up.

    And regardless, you cannot balance a game by continuously nerfing and/or removing things. For the same reason you cannot balance a game by continuously buffing and/or adding things. This is why it is called “balance.”

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Why are you expecting buffs when nobody is calling them when deserved and all we can find is outliers that the initial patch missed?

    Makes no sense.

    Nobody is putting an effort in making suggestions that are elaborated for ideas to be tipped in as well.

    As far I've noticed when people do suggest "one" thing it's all in vacuum without much consideration of anything else anyway.

    Super drastic changes that completely change fundamentals with more than can be done.

    At this rate it is really true that people complain because they can, gameplay is an extremely good state right now and we have this unbearable negativity that despite all efforts think that the game was better before...

    It objectively wasn't.

    Well... there are not specific suggestions cuz you cannot fix garbage by increasing damage of a skill by 5-10%. The whole system needs to be readjusted to the equivalent of infamous Feb 2020 balance patch. And the sentiment that damage is too low and the game is bunker haven is widely shared.

    Keep in mind, most players who think the current spvp is garbage stopped playing and mostly posting. You are in the echo chamber of whoever is left. And even among this group, many think the balance is kitten up.

    And regardless, you cannot balance a game by continuously nerfing and/or removing things. For the same reason you cannot balance a game by continuously buffing and/or adding things. This is why it is called “balance.”

    It's obviously true that you can't balance with just nerfs, but we won't start buffing until we hit everything that got the exception and people are good at finding that because that's the only way they can fight instead of persevering.

    If they had to buff anything right this instant, it would be a few off hand dagger skills of elementalist along most their utility having awfully long CD's.

    Call it echo chamber if you want, It could be my bias always playing Zerker all the time, but I have yet to feel like everything hits too softly as I ignore most tank builds unless it's neutral or my node, as to which I am able to sustain for a while or indefinitely depending on my build.

    To me it feels more like people prefered the chaos over having to finally think behind their actions, because even I can admit to the fact that before feb most of what was played didn't have to get much reasoning to win anything, very often it's the build that win for being more cheesy than the other over the input of the players with the stats being completely out of hand.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2021

    Anet: brings in a patch where 90% of adjustments are nerfs to sustain
    People on the forum: Oh my gawd, you introduced bunker meta!!!

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Please nerf everything. What do we want? No runes! No stats! No weapons! No skills!

    Then the fate of the match will be determined in chat only.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Why are you expecting buffs when nobody is calling them when deserved and all we can find is outliers that the initial patch missed?

    Makes no sense.

    Nobody is putting an effort in making suggestions that are elaborated for ideas to be tipped in as well.

    As far I've noticed when people do suggest "one" thing it's all in vacuum without much consideration of anything else anyway.

    Super drastic changes that completely change fundamentals with more than can be done.

    At this rate it is really true that people complain because they can, gameplay is an extremely good state right now and we have this unbearable negativity that despite all efforts think that the game was better before...

    It objectively wasn't.

    Yeah, gameplay is "in an extremely good state now", thats why we saw a massive drop in players, and overall community opinion on the state is horrendous. Yes, the game was objectively better before. The February Patch basically destroyed PvP.

    I don't need to say it twice, if you're not happy to play with effort, you don't have to stay. I don't care if the game dies because of players leaving. I'm used to be people quitting easily and it wouldn't be the first time good things have gone away because they can't take it.

    I've been here long enough to see the changes take effect unlike those whining the second they can't do exactly what they want, they leave. I'm gonna keep blaming the players until they are actually mentally challenged.

    You can say the playerbase is dying because of the balance, I'll keep telling you it's because people can't have their mindless fun so they quit.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Why are you expecting buffs when nobody is calling them when deserved and all we can find is outliers that the initial patch missed?

    Makes no sense.

    Nobody is putting an effort in making suggestions that are elaborated for ideas to be tipped in as well.

    As far I've noticed when people do suggest "one" thing it's all in vacuum without much consideration of anything else anyway.

    Super drastic changes that completely change fundamentals with more than can be done.

    At this rate it is really true that people complain because they can, gameplay is an extremely good state right now and we have this unbearable negativity that despite all efforts think that the game was better before...

    It objectively wasn't.

    Gameplay is in such a good state right now that the playerbase has shrunk to a fraction of what it once was. It's so compelling that several would-be returning players have come to the forums asking "why has my favorite build been obliterated from existance"? only to resolve not to touch the game mode again.

    Balance is so good that we've embraced burn dh as a necessary evil just so people can actually die. All we've done is identify problematic aspects of PvP and delete/smiter's boon them out of existance. That isn't fixing problems. It's sweeping them under the rug.

    And then we sit here with the pile of garbage growing ever bigger and pretend that everything is fine.

    Ahem-- pardon me I broke script there for a second...

    Trapper ranger is unhealthy for the game. Pls nerf, ect. ect.

    The fact that a predominantly power elite, plays condi using a gimmicky rune, is the best build for guardian says it all about how kitten dysfunctional spvp has devolved.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    At this rate it is really true that people complain because they can, gameplay is an extremely good state right now and we have this unbearable negativity that despite all efforts think that the game was better before...

    It objectively wasn't.

    Yeah, gameplay is "in an extremely good state now", thats why we saw a massive drop in players, and overall community opinion on the state is horrendous. Yes, the game was objectively better before. The February Patch basically destroyed PvP.

    @UNOwen.7132 is objectively right. If you compare the amount of people playing now to before, it's dropped pretty drastically.

    -All the polls on the Feb 25th balance patch and all subsequent patches usually end with the vast majority of people against them.(Like 3:1 if not higher)
    -The bottom 45 ranks on the NA leaderboard are gold into the final week of Season 25 which is the all-time low i've ever seen them.(Playing since Season 2 and even when the queues were restricted to 2, 3, & 5 it wasn't this bad.)
    -The standard for even being top 250 is 1,460 at the time of writing this. Again; one of, if not the worst turnouts ever for a Ranked conquest season.

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can say the playerbase is dying because of the balance, I'll keep telling you it's because people can't have their mindless fun so they quit.

    They're entwined. The balance is actually horrible and boring so people are having less fun and then leaving when they get bored.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.
    "You cannot learn a thing you think you know..."

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 @UNOwen.7132

    Thats the issue though. Its the opposite. You used to have to play by putting real effort in pre-february patch. After the february patch? The game became utterly braindead. Just an absolute skillless spam fest where you use everything off cooldown and nothing ever dies anyway. And if you don't care if the game dies because of players leaving, then at best you're selfish.

    Why do everyone spit out the same broken record without any form of example? Game hasn't changed outside offering more pro-active gameplay. This game really deserves to die for how people could careless about anything but their own whatever mindless used to have stupid builds from before.

    Evidently you're not actually seeing what the changes did. You also seem to misunderstand why players are leaving. Hint: the non-existence of skill in the current meta, and the fact that the meta is incredibly imbalanced and noone ever dies are major reasons.

    Wrong, how does it make any sense that you couldn't spam before when all the cooldowns were shorter and the risk was never to be seen whatsoever. Games far from braindead now when decisions actually matter, it's baffling that you think otherwise. "Nothing" ever dies? Right, where's the proof of that? Are you going to tell me that everyone around me suck then? I've heard it before, irrelevant statement. Dare say that if I tell anything has some challenging tactics to go through? I must be bad. Seriously you have the nerve to call me selfish when none of you ever provide actual evidence to your statement, what have you done to prove anything? I don't see anything anywhere that shows how NOBODY ever dies Zzzzz.

    I've got all I need and have already posting enough to show the difference in between then and now.

    And you will be wrong every single time you say that. As you have been every single time you already have. The playerbase is dying because of both bad balance, and the fact that PvP is now just mindless.

    The game was never interesting to watch before the patch with all the same thing going around with the same short fights of the same one sided tactics with no space to ever be creative at all unlike now. There's absolutely no reason to think it's dying outside the players just plain being unhappy because the old degeneracy is far gone now.

    I remember kitten well every single meta builds that we've had and I know how most of the people in here that actually played it are also the one complaining, it's no coincidence at all and also doesn't surprise me anymore. People are quitting because they can't accept that they suck at the game and aren't wanting to get good, pulling out whatever desperate excuse they can find now because it DEFINITELY wasn't mindless to play prior to the patch, I've never seen so much denial. Knowing that people also pay for Raids only reinforce my statement that people just don't want to be good.

    Not only it can be proven with footage, but you look at any archived builds and you can tell how stupidly easy everything was to play unlike now.

    Again, nothing, there's nothing, absolutely nothing ever brought here that proves that this community is nothing but whiny and never can accept that they're bad period, they're always good without ANYTHING to ever improve on.

    You can go ahead even uno reverse the purpose of my statement once again since that's all you can really do, but I'll reply in advance. I know what I can and can't do, I'll go far out and wide before thinking the game is actually unfair to me, that's actually a lost art today, not even surprised.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Please nerf everything. What do we want? No runes! No stats! No weapons! No skills!

    Anet wants to reduce us to unga bungas hitting each other in turn based combat with clubs.

    anet can have everyone on an ettin tonic when entering the match and all everyone can do is smack with the big club.

    • grid based + turn based
  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    If we judge the patch on whats in it, not what it's missing, it's actually a pretty awesome one. It only hit things which deserved to be toned down, the only change where I am unsure about this is the fullcounter daze reduction.
    Now if only we got these every 4-6 weeks right after the february patch... as we were originally supposed to. The toning down of overperforming leftovers is almost done, we are already seeing sustain nerfs. I expect one more round of nerfs on guardian sustain and some other stuff(trapper rune, pls delete), and after that i hope EoD will be close enough for the pre-patch. If not, god save us all.

    Anyway, stop crying this patch was good.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    For me the problems with this build are:

    • unblockable + pulsing + combo field + condi traps:

    This is definitely something Anet should be concerned with design wise. AoE condi spam has absolutely no business being unblockable. These are generally the easiest to land abilities in the game, and therefore do not need the additional advantage of ignoring defenses.

  • DH bein in perma stealth almost is just bad and should be removed or atleast reduce the stealth time. Burn guard is just a joke cant even see why things like this exsist so stupid

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Star.8401 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    It objectively wasn't.

    That's why all the really good PvP players quit ages ago, why the game has lost all entertainment value, why PvP population is seriously in jeopardy compared to how it used to thrive.

    Oh wait, you are so wrong.
    Spvp started to go wild when HoT added elite specs and its been a downhill trend/train since then. Balance will never come again. There are too many factors, and this is why Spvp has lost its population growth and its in a downhill trend.

    How am I wrong? That's what I'm saying, before feb it was a mess since the very start, I wasn't there before HoT but was there during it and yes it was terrible with no variety to be seen, PoF had the same issue and that lasted till the blanket nerf of feb which has done a lot more good than people want to admit.

    But no, it was better when all of it consisted of content added after one another with no thought process behind the abominations that most people complain about balance to this day have become addicted to and want it back so bad, I'm glad it's all gone and that we finally have more playable content.

    All can whine about bunkers rn, in the end if people stopped playing bunker exclusively and tried DAMAGE instead, we wouldn't have many of the false claims that NOBODY dies.

    I regardless wouldn't be mad if bunkers died so people would be forced to play dps, but then what of it? MUH BUILD DIVERSITY. Y'all should just deal with it, I am and it's going fine when you play it right.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    Pls...we had a burst meta for few months and the same people who were crying now..were crying even then, I was playing : FA ele - "too much dmg, to fast, instant death QQ".....burst guardian -"too much dmg, can teleport from behind wall, QQ"......ranger burst -"kitten, unblockable pewpew QQ pls nerf ty"......herald-"OMG that off hand sword dmg is too much, pls nerf QQ".

    When you do dmg and they die...they whine
    When you don't do dmg and they survive...they whine

    GW2 PvP is in complete shambles because from the start it allowed Cats and Dogs to freely enter PvP without any prior preparation differently from GW1, where to unlock competitive gamemode you had to win 25 Random Matches in a row with a ..random team, the gamemode forced you to adapt, learn what all professions could and assume different strategies.

    Anet is forced to adapt to the constant whining and nagging of this community, one second you whine about hammer burst from guardian and you cry yourself to sleep till Anet daddy comes and nerf the kitten out of hammer burst...a second later you whine and ask for bunker guardian to be nerfed for too much sustain.

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Please nerf everything. What do we want? No runes! No stats! No weapons! No skills!

    Even better , just give everyone the title of God/Goddess of PvP as soon as they enter HoM

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2021

    @Shao.7236 said:
    You can say the playerbase is dying because of the balance, I'll keep telling you it's because people can't have their mindless fun so they quit.

    LOL! Are these the lies we use to justify this state of the game? No wonder this is where we're at.

    Pick any reasonably balanced competitive game that is popular with a substantially larger playerbase than GW2, doesn't even need to be a video game.
    How much more mindless is it compared to GW2?
    Or I'm sorry, is GW2 just the biggest brain competitive game and sooooo complicated, and requires sooooo much skill; no other game can keep up? Even more than Chess? Even more than Mahjong? Even more than Starcraft? Even more than MTG?

    Did you pick a game or two? Good, Now: Why can those games maintain large player bases with interest, despite how many are likely at the bottom level?
    Why do they have healthy populations?
    If you think it's mindless think of the easiest builds to play right, now and ask yourself if GW2 is still more demanding?
    Let's say GW2 is not well enough known, and so it will have a naturally smaller player base; then why couldn't it retain the healthy numbers we had a few years ago?

    I'm sorry, but no. People aren't leaving because "they can't have their mindless fun". Literally no one in any competitive game has ever done that except the most petulant and entitled kids who can't win; and it's spectrum levels of short sightedness, as well as insulting, and profoundly conceited to simply assume everyone who supported the game over the years has dropped for such a reason...
    Not to mention statistically unlikely, given the sheer number of players who've left.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    @Daishi.6027

    Did you pick a game or two? Good, Now: Why can those games maintain large player bases with interest, despite how many are likely at the bottom level?
    Why do they have healthy populations?
    If you think it's mindless think of the easiest builds to play right, now and ask yourself if GW2 is still more demanding?
    Let's say GW2 is not well enough known, and so it will have a naturally smaller player base; then why couldn't it retain the healthy numbers we had a few years ago?

    Take away the most overpowered aspects in Apex Legends which is Wingman/Mastiff/Hemlok/Wraith/Pathfinder away from Sweatlords, I can guaranteed you half the player base will quit even though it's a good game with many positives outside the TTVtwitchTTV.tv players all being the same exact carbon copy to win the game. (Sounds like GW2 mindless gameplay.)

    Take away the AWP from CS which is another overpowered aspect from the game and one of only way many scrubs can play, you'll probably kill it's already dying state even though it's also a good game with otherwise balanced aspects but problematic hitreg at times yet all that get tossed out the window with the existence of the AWP. (Sounds like GW2 mindless gameplay.)

    Your point is faulty.

    I'm sorry, but no. People aren't leaving because "they can't have their mindless fun". Literally no one in any competitive game has ever done that except the most petulant and entitled kids who can't win; and it's spectrum levels of short sightedness, as well as insulting, and profoundly conceited to simply assume everyone who supported the game over the years has dropped for such a reason...
    Not to mention statistically unlikely, given the sheer number of players who've left.

    Hypocrisy at it's finest. It's been already told that people were quitting because GW2 was never balanced unlike now but it was already too late. You're implying in HoT and PoF the game was totally balanced which is an hilarious sight seeing.

    You're gonna tell me that permanent damage sponge stunbreaking heralds, 1v5 5k unblockable evade damage spamming spellbreakers, 1v5 scrappers node bunkers, unburstable mirages, node wide covering damage sponge scourges, 1v5 node symbol spamming immortal firebrands, unblockable 50k damage bursts from soulbeasts, 1v5 chrono bunkers, nearly have all boons permanently holosmiths, 40 burn stacks untouchable weavers- Isn't that mindless gameplay?

    Could go on with this, you don't call that mindless gameplay? Nobody is? Just me? I must the only one that's sane anymore.

    GW2 has demanding timing, reaction and mechanical understanding. The game has in fact all of the aspects of what could be in competitive games outside aiming, that's the only thing GW2 doesn't do.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭

    @Star.8401 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    It objectively wasn't.

    That's why all the really good PvP players quit ages ago, why the game has lost all entertainment value, why PvP population is seriously in jeopardy compared to how it used to thrive.

    Oh wait, you are so wrong.
    Spvp started to go wild when HoT added elite specs and its been a downhill trend/train since then. Balance will never come again. There are too many factors, and this is why Spvp has lost its population growth and its in a downhill trend.

    I don't think player numbers depend on balance at all. The more hype there is, the higher the numbers. Right now we're the few stuck with an 8 year old game, an MMO that hasn't seen an expansion in over 3 years, a PvP mode where eSports died 5 years ago etc.
    Of course it's slowly declining - until there's something new and fun like the next set of elite specializations. But there certainly isn't an exodus happening because you don't like the balance.

  • i think the problem is everyone got used to burst meta and thats how the game was perceived. now that it has changed its viewed as negative. don't get me wrong i think damage is too low right now (personally i would lower cds first) but pre megapatch this game was a joke.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    @Daishi.6027

    I never made such a claim that HoT and PoF were balanced, those are your words and either you faulty inference, or blatant attempt to argue by a red herring, when that is not my claim.

    Your arguement still implies that feb patch or anything before did wrong and we are better off without it all. You can't make this up.

    LOL! Are these the lies we use to justify this state of the game? No wonder this is where we're at.

    Otherwise bringing forth /useless/ substance to the conversation because I already stated that the game was dying way before this.

    And you think that passively tossing newer arguments is going to save you avoiding your prior requests from me?

    Yeah, as thought. You ignored them. Majority of players quit when they can't be cheesy, that's a hard undeniable fact.

    This game has never been balanced, and it's not balanced now. It's been bleeding players since release, we've had multiple waves and multiple mass exodus' on top of a steady stream of continual deteriorations like being dropped from ESL. You even said in a prior post that you only came around HoT, several years following initial decline. However, such declines are never instantaneous. The big Feb patch to many was a breaking point after 8 years of let down; the point where anyone hopeful that this game could have been a thing gave up. The game COULD have been balanced a lot better, a lot earlier, but feb was many players last hope and the biggest thing it served to do was eliminate diversity, and seat a new build on a throne which wasn't taken care of for over half a year.

    Yeah just take everything that I said like I never did and regurgitate it with more vague elitism as if that adds any value.

    HOW CAN YOU PROVE THAT DIVERSITY IS DEAD WHEN EVERYONE IS PLAYING WHAT THEY WANT RIGHT THIS MOMENT????? ZZZZZZZ.

    The word Balanced is a nuance, it doesn't say perfection unless stated, me saying it's balanced now doesn't insinuate perfection. Nice try though, you almost shoved that statement into my throat like I ever said that this game is without any flaw while I'm probably one of the only person putting up elaborated dedicated threads of my favorite profession for nerfs and buffs that barely gets any attention, even god kitten bug threads of the most niche affaires.

    And fighting games which have all the same, are far more recognized as a e-sport, and even the dwindling communities for some dwarf GW2 in concurrent players, and many of them support a wider diverse roster of selection and playstyles than GW2. What's the biggest difference between them and GW2? Reasonable deviations of balance between the characters.

    And just like everyone else, yeah I said it. Everyone else, you're going to attempt and defend your involvement with the most non sensical vague uncomparable arguments (An RPG to Fighting) by bringing unrelated catalysts with opinionated thoughts because it's offending to say that this community doesn't know any better, how dare me acting like I am better, it's totally what I've been saying all this time, that I am without any flaws, except I don't see that anywhere and I'm not afraid to realize that the reality is, everything ain't so bad and people refuse to actually move on from it because it was "so much better back then", you know that they had satisfaction in pulling off the most "mindless" builds, sure and bring forth the spamming in a fighter argument, as if you can punish anything that's offensive and defensive at the same time, it's almost as if like you're missing the point on "balance".

    Literally no one in any competitive game has ever done that except the most petulant and entitled kids who can't win;

    Completely ignore how an avid RPG player should be expected to have the dedication of a Fighter player to improve.. You go ahead and deny that fact then come back telling me that I am stupid for thinking that it's probably because people just can't accept that they need to get better at it.

    Have you forgot what kind of genre we're dealing with? Or really how the real world population and genres of game have evolved to be.

    As many, irrepressively blind, it's no wonder that in every single community that I participate, they're all dying one way or another. It is truly human nature to just be this impossibly dumb.

    Arena shooters have died for the same reasons as humanity became unable to tell themselves, that they probably should get better at it or admit that they're bad and move on from it.

    CMC on a live steam even said himself "we could do perfect balance, but that wouldn't be fun" which I'd argue that it hasn't been tested in this game but, fine. However the biggest let down is that he followed up that statement with (paraphrasing) "not every change we make will be healthy, it's fine we'll try better next time.", which ya, reasonable to assume that. However this comes across as extremely apathetic when you consider that it explicitly shows full awareness when something is unhealthy. And then we see no attempt to fix it, and only it; as it pollutes the game for months and moths on end

    No games have been shaped on the players, players should be the ones that point out mistakes at best, but still work on the same idealogy the devs have had intended.

    It's also very dumb to expect changes right away as soon as people find something they don't like, because they are too busy comtemplating how overpowered something is rather than finding something to work around it.

    But okay, keep defending your dying scene as if it gives you a leg to stand on. Everyone else is the problem, your game is god tier and perfect, with amazing balance and everyone else is wrong. eyeroll

    Just for your special dedicated case to my statement on balance, it has improved a lot and players are the one that needs to adapt, still not getting it? It's not perfect but it's better than what we had before. Not picking up on it is the prime example of a /whiny/ playerbase, because "I" am doing good at it and I am having fun that is as crystal clear because my gameplay is rewarded with good plays and punished with bad plays, nothing ever says I am perfect, you're the one taking offense to my statement that people are not wanting to improve, like it's illegal or whatever.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • @Kuma.1503 said:
    Now I can run into a fight, facetank a full burst combo because immob ranger disables my dodge key (fun), and still live through it.

    i don't know why everyone keeps saying this, my full bursts and anyone that targets me results in a down. maybe i'm just bad tho lol.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Filip.7463Filip.7463 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2021

    If u think trapper ranger is degen then im sure u have never seen minionmancer
    U are fighting NPC, not player

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Multicolorhipster.9751 @UNOwen.7132

    Thats the issue though. Its the opposite. You used to have to play by putting real effort in pre-february patch. After the february patch? The game became utterly braindead. Just an absolute skillless spam fest where you use everything off cooldown and nothing ever dies anyway. And if you don't care if the game dies because of players leaving, then at best you're selfish.

    Why do everyone spit out the same broken record without any form of example? Game hasn't changed outside offering more pro-active gameplay. This game really deserves to die for how people could careless about anything but their own whatever mindless used to have stupid builds from before.

    Evidently you're not actually seeing what the changes did. You also seem to misunderstand why players are leaving. Hint: the non-existence of skill in the current meta, and the fact that the meta is incredibly imbalanced and noone ever dies are major reasons.

    Wrong, how does it make any sense that you couldn't spam before when all the cooldowns were shorter and the risk was never to be seen whatsoever. Games far from braindead now when decisions actually matter, it's baffling that you think otherwise. "Nothing" ever dies? Right, where's the proof of that? Are you going to tell me that everyone around me suck then? I've heard it before, irrelevant statement. Dare say that if I tell anything has some challenging tactics to go through? I must be bad. Seriously you have the nerve to call me selfish when none of you ever provide actual evidence to your statement, what have you done to prove anything? I don't see anything anywhere that shows how NOBODY ever dies Zzzzz.

    I've got all I need and have already posting enough to show the difference in between then and now.

    And you will be wrong every single time you say that. As you have been every single time you already have. The playerbase is dying because of both bad balance, and the fact that PvP is now just mindless.

    The game was never interesting to watch before the patch with all the same thing going around with the same short fights of the same one sided tactics with no space to ever be creative at all unlike now. There's absolutely no reason to think it's dying outside the players just plain being unhappy because the old degeneracy is far gone now.

    I remember kitten well every single meta builds that we've had and I know how most of the people in here that actually played it are also the one complaining, it's no coincidence at all and also doesn't surprise me anymore. People are quitting because they can't accept that they suck at the game and aren't wanting to get good, pulling out whatever desperate excuse they can find now because it DEFINITELY wasn't mindless to play prior to the patch, I've never seen so much denial. Knowing that people also pay for Raids only reinforce my statement that people just don't want to be good.

    Not only it can be proven with footage, but you look at any archived builds and you can tell how stupidly easy everything was to play unlike now.

    Again, nothing, there's nothing, absolutely nothing ever brought here that proves that this community is nothing but whiny and never can accept that they're bad period, they're always good without ANYTHING to ever improve on.

    You can go ahead even uno reverse the purpose of my statement once again since that's all you can really do, but I'll reply in advance. I know what I can and can't do, I'll go far out and wide before thinking the game is actually unfair to me, that's actually a lost art today, not even surprised.

    The game was a joke balance wise anyways. Nerfing core to make elites the go to spec is really bad design, as it alienates people who don't buy the newest spec.

    why play tempest and core when weaver is now the bestest spec until a new one comes out amiright?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503

    Conviction does not turn hypothesis into fact. You cannot prove this to be true, claiming otherwise would be dishonest.

    Dude with the years I have spend on the gaming community as a whole with over 10k hours in certain games, it was clear fact that 7 times out of 10 players can't take it and leave if things don't go their ways. It doesn't take a degree in Psychology to figure out how gaming has evolved as a whole in matter predatory acts that exploits those behaviors too.

    Guess that poor lad who just wanted to play his celestial ele and couldn't doesn't count eh?

    Should I add myself to the exception that I want to play my perma resistance herald again?

    No, why do we always bring up examples like this, you know they aren't relevant. Because I want to play something specifically doesn't mean I should be devoid of balance.

    That's just another example of, I can't do what I want therefor ima quit.

    You'd be surprised. A desire for growth is near-universal among humans. It's not something exclusive to an elite club of individuals. It's arrogant to assume that your own desire to improve far exceeds the majority of the playerbase.

    You never had to assume it's only about me, there's no other way to put it. People should "git gud" or let the game die, both are fair to me because in the end I had fun, did you? Did anyone else? You see, as much as you or anyone think of me as an egocentric jerk, I'm tired of seeing the whining here or in game when the players themselves have never changed but the game has changed countless times for them, yet they're still disrespecting the efforts of the people in charge.

    It's disgusting.

    Better by what metric? If we're judging whether or not it's better based on opinion, well, we'll be here a while. However, if the population is any guage, things are, in fact, not better. Fewer players results in weaker matchmaking, which results in lower quality matches... A fact which is especially harsh on players attempting to pick up PvP for the first time.

    Fact is, if the current state of balance only appeals to a niche few individuals at the expense of the large majority of retiring veterans, the quality of said balance should come into question.

    You see, even if GW2 was what everyone wanted this instant, it wouldn't magically bring people back and because players aren't coming back doesn't mean the game isn't improving either.

    I would say it's wrong that the current game state appeals to a niche population, it's the way the game should have been from the very start, free of the PvE power creep. Sure you can attract by making them think it's fun to be super strong but that will never make them think they'll have to improve in case of a roadblock, it'll be the same vicious circle all over again.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2021

    I wasn't gonna respond and Kuma did a pretty good follow up. But a conceited perspective of those complicit with this game is something that should be pointed out and displayed. Not for the benefit of Shao, those like minded, and the devs who believe they can do no wrong, or are apathetic about their wrongs; and will choose to believe whatever they want to believe. But for the greater body of A-net, and all other on lookers in hopes they apply critical reasoning when thinking about this game.

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Kuma.1503

    Conviction does not turn hypothesis into fact. You cannot prove this to be true, claiming otherwise would be dishonest.

    Dude with the years I have spend on the gaming community as a whole with over 10k hours in certain games, it was clear fact that 7 times out of 10 players can't take it and leave if things don't go their ways. It doesn't take a degree in Psychology to figure out how gaming has evolved as a whole in matter predatory acts that exploits those behaviors too.

    A lot of us here have over 10k hours in games. That does not give anyone any metric to label someone as an expert. Any argument following it is anecdotal at best.

    Also this hypothesis is false, People do not leave simply because things do not go their way. LoL for example has 30 - 50 million players DAILY, only 1.5% of the population are diamond. Those numbers get smaller going up. Less than 10% are in platinum, and the vast majority are in Gold and Silver. This would imply the vast majority of the population loses their games and stay in those divisions. If people left simply "because things didn't go their way" there wouldn't be such a large volume of players because everyone in gold and silver would have all quit.

    Also It's interesting Psychology is brought up, and this is a proof of someone using anecdotal evidence. I suggest anyone interested read up on peer reviewed papers of Motivation in the face of defeat. Because there is a large amount of documentation to show that motivation is retained after a defeat when it is viewed as fair and achievable, and one sided losses serve to demotivate.

    You can infer from this whatever you want; but if a player leaves GW2 and starts playing LoL or Smite, a fighting game, or something, and has more fun despite not reaching high up the ladder and they subsequently stick to it over GW2. Are we supposed to believe that the other game is brain dead, and artificially makes you feel powerful over other players? Some may, EA I know has been looking into doing that to exploit microtransactions (but we all know we can't trust EA EVER). But personally I'd argue Starcraft, Fighting games, and Dark souls pvp aren't braindead, and are reasonably fair between matchups. Plus I'd argue something like Starcraft is harder than GW2 and a true-er measure of someone's APM and reaction time... and those are the types of games where I went.

    Guess that poor lad who just wanted to play his celestial ele and couldn't doesn't count eh?

    Should I add myself to the exception that I want to play my perma resistance herald again?

    No, why do we always bring up examples like this, you know they aren't relevant. Because I want to play something specifically doesn't mean I should be devoid of balance.

    That's just another example of, I can't do what I want therefor ima quit.

    I mean I liked power mirage myself. Wasn't over powered by any metric, and Feb made it pretty garbage not to mention clunky, actually I'd argue the clunkyness is what made it the most unfun. Either way the issue is that balance could have been maintained while allowing it to thrive, and it was a perfect example of why Mirage's survivability was less of the problem. Yet A-net made a choice that actively removed fun instead of preserving the fun, and adding balance. Vast majority of the playerbase can see this was lazy, but in truth that laziness is a microcosm that represents an analog of the entire games history.

    You'd be surprised. A desire for growth is near-universal among humans. It's not something exclusive to an elite club of individuals. It's arrogant to assume that your own desire to improve far exceeds the majority of the playerbase.

    You never had to assume it's only about me, there's no other way to put it. People should "git gud" or let the game die, both are fair to me because in the end I had fun, did you? Did anyone else? You see, as much as you or anyone think of me as an egocentric jerk, I'm tired of seeing the whining here or in game when the players themselves have never changed but the game has changed countless times for them, yet they're still disrespecting the efforts of the people in charge.

    It's disgusting.

    Good balance should be expected to be included in a game that marketed itself on it's aspirations of being an E-sport, and propped up on the idea of "oh we can make changes at any time". I'd almost argue the oversight is akin to false advertising. Despite their claims they had no plan, and only served to do worse over time; GW2 PvP by analogy became akin to the sequel trilogy of starwars. This game was so bad ESL didn't want it, and no one wanted to watch it. People have a right to complain. We never had test servers, we had Devs and top players with agendas (that other top players at the time would attest to), and A-net really only had to fix what was problematic at the time; not shuffle the entire deck and let something else be problematic, this is not the change anyone was seeking; nor is it the change anyone should be grateful for. If we started there from day 1, or at least following the specialization patch prior to HoT; we wouldn't be here now. I complain because I'm actually passionate about this game, or at least was so passionate my disappointment over the years has evolved into a profoundly melancholic apathy. But really I DON'T WANT IT TO DIE, that's the entire reason why I fight and complain and even come back to these forums. The only pleasure it's death gives me is schadenfreude (as sweet as it is) for the fools who cling on and justify it, and the "just-deserts" for A-net who refused to listen. Not only have I invested years, money, and effort into it, but the potential was so beautifully high, and the smoothness of the system could have been amazing.

    The only thing I personally would encourage others to find "disgusting" are the attitudes that are complicit in it's death. We SHOULD be mad, and A-net should be obligated to make it better. I know I'm not alone when I say: "I'm not buying any expansion unless PvP drastically improves." I also know I'm not the only player who has made purchases based upon the quality of PvP.

    Unrelated it's a shame GW2 has struggled with hemorrhaging money from even the PvE side of things; and polish should have been added before introducing the game to steam. Instead we got an influx of players who went "kitten is this" and left to go AFK in PvE.

    Better by what metric? If we're judging whether or not it's better based on opinion, well, we'll be here a while. However, if the population is any guage, things are, in fact, not better. Fewer players results in weaker matchmaking, which results in lower quality matches... A fact which is especially harsh on players attempting to pick up PvP for the first time.

    Fact is, if the current state of balance only appeals to a niche few individuals at the expense of the large majority of retiring veterans, the quality of said balance should come into question.

    You see, even if GW2 was what everyone wanted this instant, it wouldn't magically bring people back and because players aren't coming back doesn't mean the game isn't improving either.

    I would say it's wrong that the current game state appeals to a niche population, it's the way the game should have been from the very start, free of the PvE power creep. Sure you can attract by making them think it's fun to be super strong but that will never make them think they'll have to improve in case of a roadblock, it'll be the same vicious circle all over again.

    I'll be honest if GW2 gave me what I wanted I'd be back playing it every day and spending money, and I've never wanted anything over powered; just fair fights for EVERYONE. But that's an anecdotal claim.

    I'll admit GW2 has had times when it improves, but slight inclines followed by drastic declines is still net negative... and it's been so many years. All the good will has been soured, the earth salted, and the well poisoned. People are eventually going to get fed up, and it's reasonable to expect them to. The problem isn't that PvP is catering to a niche population; the problem is that the niche being catered to isn't those who want good PvP; because at the end of the day that's all we've ever needed for it to thrive, and what it ultimately never was.

  • pls add woden stick as a weapons . other weapons just deal too much dmg

  • @Entropo.1524 said:
    pls add woden stick as a weapons . other weapons just deal too much dmg

    don't forget throw rock for ranged play

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 You believe in too many things that never mattered from the very start and won't ever later on. Bringing arguments, past and future that don't correlate whatsoever.

    The community wishes are senseless and without a foundation that doesn't hold to the current vision. The complains are no more than strict self oriented lack of satisfaction, players were always bleeding before and after your realization, times change, shocking!

    You've expected so much from what you knew would be always homogenized more than anything else out there. If anything, all you see is from the perspective of the consumer and nothing else.

    Blame Anet all you want, it won't matter. The structure is there and you're stuck with it unless /you/ have the money and meaning to give Anet the better option, also no paying for the new xpac won't change a road map.

    It's very easy to speak from your very unsatisfied perspective, you don't have to be pretending, I know that you and all of the majority would still not be satisfied. Involving LoL which is known to have constant balance issues that rocks back and forth with the same exact situations, too tanky, too bursty, too tanky, too bursty.

    There's nothing to do for Anet to ever satisfied anyone.

    Talk about LoL being more popular is not proof of just good gameplay, most people hate playing the game yet they still do because they like insert "x" reasons, often likely, the characters and lore.

    Experience speaks for itself, it always did with accurate repetitive results, having said many hours to gather results and show a proof of concept is how you gather facts and I've been doing that for the longest time.

    However you can take that away and act like I'm just some random dude on the net, I've never been too busy to notice the decline of quality in the gaming industry for both players and companies alike, in our case here. Anet has never changed one bit, but kitten have the players been thirsty for something different that was never promised...

    Oh do you mean the PvP patches? Sure, let's just scramble anything every week without any apparent need, that'll bring back the old perfect so claimed fun times that feb patch ruined, remember that in practice nothing takes time to make good decisions. You'll be able to play celestial ele while tetherbreaker rolls over your team with 5k unblockable damage per dodge.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Daishi.6027 You believe in too many things that never mattered from the very start and won't ever later on. Bringing arguments, past and future that don't correlate whatsoever.

    Actually this is very important for the perspective of how the game has evolved until this point. Compounding factors are not irrelevant simply because you say so.

    The community wishes are senseless and without a foundation that doesn't hold to the current vision. The complains are no more than strict self oriented lack of satisfaction, players were always bleeding before and after your realization, times change, shocking!

    The community wishes not being met is how we got to where we are. When Hambow and Petting Zoo were dominating; balance only needed to be tweaked regarding those (and maybe Engie), and we'd have had half a year of solid PvP. Instead A-net shakes the entire thing up and does not correct for errors. These aren't the types of thing that are "senseless and without foundation". If A-net wanted to have a shake up in 6 months- that is fine. But you don't go "well sucks to be you, enjoy what you have for now something new will be here later." That is a spit in peoples face; and isn't "irrelevant" in anyway, since this is analogues the entire history of the game, even up to the feb patch.

    Correcting this pattern is not an excessive demand to be met, and could have been done YEARS ago.

    You've expected so much from what you knew would be always homogenized more than anything else out there. If anything, all you see is from the perspective of the consumer and nothing else.

    Blame Anet all you want, it won't matter. The structure is there and you're stuck with it unless /you/ have the money and meaning to give Anet the better option, also no paying for the new xpac won't change a road map.

    The scene is so small so yes, if everyone in PvP refused to pay it wouldn't make a difference. But you're going to have to clarify your argument because the first part doesn't make sense, Yes; I am seeing it from a consumer. This is a product and it's simple business. None of that changes what A-net choose to do, and what they continue to choose to do. The only expectation was to have good, reasonably balanced PvP, and I already mentioned one thing above that was not an unreasonable burden and people have been asking for, for years. We're only stuck with it here now because of compounding factors that could have been avoided, have been pointed out over the years, and are constantly ignored in place of whatever they want to do. Go check the archived forums.

    It's very easy to speak from your very unsatisfied perspective, you don't have to be pretending, I know that you and all of the majority would still not be satisfied. Involving LoL which is known to have constant balance issues that rocks back and forth with the same exact situations, too tanky, too bursty, too tanky, too bursty.
    There's nothing to do for Anet to ever satisfied anyone.

    Not true; there were balance issues but there were several metas where I was very satisfied and at least fun. But adjustments needed to be made for better balance; but instead of getting tweaks and fixes to solve those issues all we got was decline after decline killing diversity, and then maybe massive a shake ups with no reversion to unhealthy choices. This isn't about satisfying everyone, it's about satisfying people who want good PvP; that is the only demand that needed to be met. Especially if they were not going to meet the standards, that the community has told them for years to preserve balance and diversity.

    Talk about LoL being more popular is not proof of just good gameplay, most people hate playing the game yet they still do because they like insert "x" reasons, often likely, the characters and lore.

    The only reason I brought LoL was for your point to your narrative of "people leave when they can't win" Which is wholly untrue and even documented by in several psychological research papers. Which if you want to argue against fine; but I think you lack the credentials to do so, and this is not the place.

    If you are claiming anything else as justification for players sticking around, that is moving the goal post. The Volume isn't what ultimately matters, it's the consistency that is relevant to our debate.

    Experience speaks for itself, it always did with accurate repetitive results, having said many hours to gather results and show a proof of concept is how you gather facts and I've been doing that for the longest time.

    No, your facts don't matter and are easily dismissed if they are anecdotal. Everything you have brought like your 7/10 statistic, or your "People need their mindless power for people to stay" is anecdotal at best.

    However you can take that away and act like I'm just some random dude on the net, I've never been too busy to notice the decline of quality in the gaming industry for both players and companies alike, in our case here. Anet has never changed one bit, but kitten have the players been thirsty for something different that was never promised...

    Go look at early marketing, it was promised. When we had chances to obtain it; decisions were made that tore us further way from such a goal. Maybe it's been abandoned, but there is that omni present expectation of quality; if you're saying "Game has been consistently bad, Why compain? This is what we consistently get." Then you are complicit, and part of the problem.

    Oh do you mean the PvP patches? Sure, let's just scramble anything every week without any apparent need, that'll bring back the old perfect so claimed fun times that feb patch ruined, remember that in practice nothing takes time to make good decisions. You'll be able to play celestial ele while tetherbreaker rolls over your team with 5k unblockable damage per dodge.

    Good changes has to be made at the time, and revision and un-nerfing when it goes to far needs to practiced. Safe guards need to be put in place to allow for community testing to preserve healthy game play, as so things don't get worse. A-net should have realized this in 2013, but none of this has ever been a standard, and it needed to be met. Feb patch was the nail in the coffin. If you're saying that there is no use complaining because what's done is done, and all arguments have to be to be relevant to the current meta, then sorry, no. The problem is that A-net didn't listen in the first place, and as the ship sinks and as they die; they deserve the biggest "I told you so" followed by a schadenfreude fueled smirk.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Actually this is very important for the perspective of how the game has evolved until this point. Compounding factors are not irrelevant simply because you say so.

    No, it's irrelevant. The game hasn't evolved in the slightest for any important goals whatsoever.

    The community wishes not being met is how we got to where we are. When Hambow and Petting Zoo were dominating; balance only needed to be tweaked regarding those (and maybe Engie), and we'd have had half a year of solid PvP. Instead A-net shakes the entire thing up and does not correct for errors. These aren't the types of thing that are "senseless and without foundation". If A-net wanted to have a shake up in 6 months- that is fine. But you don't go "well sucks to be you, enjoy what you have for now something new will be here later." That is a spit in peoples face; and isn't "irrelevant" in anyway, since this is analogues the entire history of the game, even up to the feb patch.

    We are here because the community had expectations outside the vision, that's what you're basically saying and that's why you're wrong. Like I said, you're acting as a strict consumer and you'll never understand the reason behind anything at this point. Also no proof of concept that balancing would have improved it whatsoever when who knows how many other broken aspects would have surged just to have the same complains to be heard again.

    The scene is so small so yes, if everyone in PvP refused to pay it wouldn't make a difference. But you're going to have to clarify your argument because the first part doesn't make sense, Yes; I am seeing it from a consumer. This is a product and it's simple business. None of that changes what A-net choose to do, and what they continue to choose to do. The only expectation was to have good, reasonably balanced PvP, and I already mentioned one thing above that was not an unreasonable burden and people have been asking for, for years. We're only stuck with it here now because of compounding factors that could have been avoided, have been pointed out over the years, and are constantly ignored in place of whatever they want to do. Go check the archived forums.

    All I see is complains that wouldn't fit in, so really. Nothing different from the past, present or future. Just another day with people being the same broken records they have been.

    Not true; there were balance issues but there were several metas where I was very satisfied and at least fun. But adjustments needed to be made for better balance; but instead of getting tweaks and fixes to solve those issues all we got was decline after decline killing diversity, and then maybe massive a shake ups with no reversion to unhealthy choices. This isn't about satisfying everyone, it's about satisfying people who want good PvP; that is the only demand that needed to be met. Especially if they were not going to meet the standards, that the community has told them for years to preserve balance and diversity.

    Your good PvP can't exist, how many times does it have to be said.

    The only reason I brought LoL was for your point to your narrative of "people leave when they can't win" Which is wholly untrue and even documented by in several psychological research papers. Which if you want to argue against fine; but I think you lack the credentials to do so, and this is not the place.

    If you are claiming anything else as justification for players sticking around, that is moving the goal post. The Volume isn't what ultimately matters, it's the consistency that is relevant to our debate.

    LOL right. The world isn't pretty as you think it is. I'd be pretty rich if I had a dollar for every player from any game I have seen give up on the slightest challenge.

    No, your facts don't matter and are easily dismissed if they are anecdotal. Everything you have brought like your 7/10 statistic, or your "People need their mindless power for people to stay" is anecdotal at best.

    "Anecdotal". It's an hard evident fact that people quit easily, why do you have to deny something so easily proven by watching ANY content out there.

    Go look at early marketing, it was promised. When we had chances to obtain it; decisions were made that tore us further way from such a goal. Maybe it's been abandoned, but there is that omni present expectation of quality; if you're saying "Game has been consistently bad, Why compain? This is what we consistently get." Then you are complicit, and part of the problem.

    What goal? How about you provide it instead. To me sounds more like people have wished for things that never existed nor will. Should you know, no companies have ever worked for the consumer exclusively

    Good changes has to be made at the time, and revision and un-nerfing when it goes to far needs to practiced. Safe guards need to be put in place to allow for community testing to preserve healthy game play, as so things don't get worse. A-net should have realized this in 2013, but none of this has ever been a standard, and it needed to be met. Feb patch was the nail in the coffin. If you're saying that there is no use complaining because what's done is done, and all arguments have to be to be relevant to the current meta, then sorry, no. The problem is that A-net didn't listen in the first place, and as the ship sinks and as they die; they deserve the biggest "I told you so" followed by a schadenfreude fueled smirk.

    There's no good changes, you can say that as much as you'd like. There is none, just try to fit anything in their system. You'll be disappointed as always for expecting.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Actually this is very important for the perspective of how the game has evolved until this point. Compounding factors are not irrelevant simply because you say so.

    No, it's irrelevant. The game hasn't evolved in the slightest for any important goals whatsoever.

    Actually it's devolved.

    The community wishes not being met is how we got to where we are. When Hambow and Petting Zoo were dominating; balance only needed to be tweaked regarding those (and maybe Engie), and we'd have had half a year of solid PvP. Instead A-net shakes the entire thing up and does not correct for errors. These aren't the types of thing that are "senseless and without foundation". If A-net wanted to have a shake up in 6 months- that is fine. But you don't go "well sucks to be you, enjoy what you have for now something new will be here later." That is a spit in peoples face; and isn't "irrelevant" in anyway, since this is analogues the entire history of the game, even up to the feb patch.

    We are here because the community had expectations outside the vision, that's what you're basically saying and that's why you're wrong. Like I said, you're acting as a strict consumer and you'll never understand the reason behind anything at this point. Also no proof of concept that balancing would have improved it whatsoever when who knows how many other broken aspects would have surged just to have the same complains to be heard again.

    Go look at the old marketing, Go look at old Interviews, Go look at the pvp balance "Ready up" videos. You will find you are objectively wrong regarding expectations given the information made readily available to players, and consistently streamed to them.

    We had fairly good balance and a healthy population prior to HoT, a lot of old players from two prior mass exodus came back and legitimately enjoyed the scene. Post HoT We lost a lot of ppl after S1's, then had another massive population drop around season six. Consequently, despite problems there was massive growth around seasons 9 - 11 and massive drops following season 12. The consistent variable in all these were relevant balance changes and the directions they were going, most of which killed diversity.

    You keep brining up being a consumer, yet the burden of proof is on you to present evidence of either insider knowledge, or information that runs contrary to the media presented to the customers to set a level of expectation. If it is simply inference or a guess that expectations would not be up held then sorry, that's not good enough; and people would have a right to be upset when the standard isn't met. Feel free to correct the nuance but if your argument boils down to "a-net lied, I knew they'd lie; so it's fine" That is very dismissive and complicit over something class action lawsuits have been won for.

    The scene is so small so yes, if everyone in PvP refused to pay it wouldn't make a difference. But you're going to have to clarify your argument because the first part doesn't make sense, Yes; I am seeing it from a consumer. This is a product and it's simple business. None of that changes what A-net choose to do, and what they continue to choose to do. The only expectation was to have good, reasonably balanced PvP, and I already mentioned one thing above that was not an unreasonable burden and people have been asking for, for years. We're only stuck with it here now because of compounding factors that could have been avoided, have been pointed out over the years, and are constantly ignored in place of whatever they want to do. Go check the archived forums.

    All I see is complains that wouldn't fit in, so really. Nothing different from the past, present or future. Just another day with people being the same broken records they have been.

    People are "broken records" since the demands have never been met. People asked for a PTR prior to 2014. You say "it wouldn't fit" when there has never been an official word beyond A-net thinking that their internal testing was good enough. - and clearly it wasn't

    Not true; there were balance issues but there were several metas where I was very satisfied and at least fun. But adjustments needed to be made for better balance; but instead of getting tweaks and fixes to solve those issues all we got was decline after decline killing diversity, and then maybe massive a shake ups with no reversion to unhealthy choices. This isn't about satisfying everyone, it's about satisfying people who want good PvP; that is the only demand that needed to be met. Especially if they were not going to meet the standards, that the community has told them for years to preserve balance and diversity.

    Your good PvP can't exist, how many times does it have to be said.

    If it can exist in other games, it can exist here. What needs to be done just never gets done.

    The only reason I brought LoL was for your point to your narrative of "people leave when they can't win" Which is wholly untrue and even documented by in several psychological research papers. Which if you want to argue against fine; but I think you lack the credentials to do so, and this is not the place.

    If you are claiming anything else as justification for players sticking around, that is moving the goal post. The Volume isn't what ultimately matters, it's the consistency that is relevant to our debate.

    LOL right. The world isn't pretty as you think it is. I'd be pretty rich if I had a dollar for every player from any game I have seen give up on the slightest challenge.

    Just because some people do doesn't mean the statistical vast majority does, and this is well documented for the variables that do cause people to bail and the factors involved to keep people to stay. Your ignorance is embarrassing to the entire psychological field; please stop.

    No, your facts don't matter and are easily dismissed if they are anecdotal. Everything you have brought like your 7/10 statistic, or your "People need their mindless power for people to stay" is anecdotal at best.

    "Anecdotal". It's an hard evident fact that people quit easily, why do you have to deny something so easily proven by watching ANY content out there.

    'cites anecdotal, then proceeds to use anecdotal arguments.' Lol I'm starting to think you don't know what anecdotal evidence means. You're legitimately funny.
    Can't tell if troll and I'm massively feeding.

    Go look at early marketing, it was promised. When we had chances to obtain it; decisions were made that tore us further way from such a goal. Maybe it's been abandoned, but there is that omni present expectation of quality; if you're saying "Game has been consistently bad, Why compain? This is what we consistently get." Then you are complicit, and part of the problem.

    What goal? How about you provide it instead. To me sounds more like people have wished for things that never existed nor will. Should you know, no companies have ever worked for the consumer exclusively

    LOL you're as lazy as A-net if you can't even just do a google search to verify my claim. You are capable of doing your own research, I'm not claiming anything hidden that really needs to be proven that you can't easily find. But here tho, it's their channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/guildwars2/videos Sort by date; you can figure out how to do that at least right? I'm not posting every little interview that has to do with PvP that talks about E-sports. It is a known fact that GW2 aspired for E-sport quality in bite sized 15 min 5v5 competitive games. Players didn't just make this up. It shows just how ignorant you are if you're even trying to argue that it didn't exist. The real pushs to make it happen started in 2015. You can find a lot more just by searching, and be sure to sift through the youtube channel but here are 2 rando interviews that took me two seconds to find:
    https://www.alistdaily.com/media/arenanet-invests-esports-200000-guild-wars-2-world-championship/
    https://www.eslgaming.com/interview/future-guild-wars-2-esports-and-pvp-interview-arenanet-team-1974

    and just for fun, here's a reddit post linking to one of them where the first comment remarks on the infrequent patches https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/30mna6/interview_with_anet_about_the_future_of_gw2_pvp/

    Just do your kitten research or be informed before you make an ignorant claim. At least if you want your opinion to matter. Because everything you have said comes from a narrow perspective with a lot of assumptions... Much like your claims about how people psychologically react in games along with your constant stream of anecdotal evidence.

    Good changes has to be made at the time, and revision and un-nerfing when it goes to far needs to practiced. Safe guards need to be put in place to allow for community testing to preserve healthy game play, as so things don't get worse. A-net should have realized this in 2013, but none of this has ever been a standard, and it needed to be met. Feb patch was the nail in the coffin. If you're saying that there is no use complaining because what's done is done, and all arguments have to be to be relevant to the current meta, then sorry, no. The problem is that A-net didn't listen in the first place, and as the ship sinks and as they die; they deserve the biggest "I told you so" followed by a schadenfreude fueled smirk.

    There's no good changes, you can say that as much as you'd like. There is none, just try to fit anything in their system. You'll be disappointed as always for expecting.

    You can't prove that there are no good changes, and who are you to decide that I'd be disappointed.

  • manu.7539manu.7539 Member ✭✭✭

    With all the immobilisation and stealth they have access this is some very annoying and unfair stuff. Its like if most of their skills are better than my elite! Its about time they nerf it and not just a little bit. Not fun at all to see this class invading WvW with these kind of builds.

    ANET didnt hesitate to remove stab from weaver stances but do nothing about this class who already have pets, unblockable, etc etc etc, really disappointing

  • manu.7539manu.7539 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2021

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Please nerf everything. What do we want? No runes! No stats! No weapons! No skills!

    I guess u play ranger, just as annoying on the battlefield than on this discussion!

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 I've seen all of this already, all of it still hold true to this day, they've done what they said would, in fact we got skill split years later after wasting so much time trying to balance PvE with everything else, but that seems to be forgotten already, ungrateful everyone is for the idea to balance PvP in it's own ecosystem. Like said, no good change to make anyone happy here. :-)

    You realize players nor public haven't cared in the slightest as the decline would continue even after ESL. GW2 in it's current form is something that people only do what they want, there's no incentive or dedication to be had when what you play is F2P at the base with a B2P scheme of skins you can buy via Gold in game, the xpac are no more than a weekly grocery that you'll forget you had days later.

    Obviously as a consumer you wouldn't see how much it takes to keep peoples attention against the other behemoths. Anet saw it and they dropped the ball for that reason as well as their own players not really giving a kitten, which if you want to blame Anet for going B2P instead of P2P, you can.

    What "you" should have cared about that Anet should be blamed for is the lack of advertising. That is all period, to hear people say "lul gemstore patch, no pvp, anet sux" is like whining at someone for having a job at the restaurant you're eating the food of and decide to have something you don't like while you have everything else they "can" offer available to you. It's own their terms to decide what works and what doesn't because they are the ones with the data, if you ain't happy you're not forced to stay, it ain't spitting in your face, they do what they have to do. Telling them recommendations are welcomed but they have to be within the realm of possibility of the company itself, not competitors to compare them to.

    Stronghold being a failure is no surprise, if you pay close to attention that they were planning to do with it, you can almost, just almost see the reason why it existed in the first place. To think that adding content to PvP when people are not happy with the base game alone, you call that a good investment? It's fashion wars you're talking about, you're not giving them money and buying EoD will be nothing in the bigger numbers even if you'd count all the PvP players from the very beginning of the game, PvE is where it's at and is where it'll always be even in a perfected version of PvP with everything that you'd wish for.

    Get the point yet? Probably not, afterall. The game is in it's "worst" state. I can't say that without laughing, people think this is the worst GW2 PvP has ever been. It's comical.

    I've been happy with whatever Anet gave me but I wasn't without criticism, right now it's clear that you have fantasies bigger than what you could pay their own dev team to do, they would have done it otherwise. Let's not be delusional about the situation they are in, at what sounds to be anything but your own gain when everything isn't as bad as they seem but you think it is, I shouldn't have to tell you any of this.

    On the scale of everything else, games like LoL, Smite or even Dota 2, whatever unrelated fighting game or shooter don't have the same challenge that Anet has to go through, they are far far far from it. So people can compare them as much as they like, but it factually still is a biased comparison regardless and to say otherwise is "delusional" to expect GW2 to be comparable. WoW, BDO or FF are the only valid comparison and neither of all are having a good time in the PvP side of things which says something.

    Finally, the game was power crept to the max and nobody acknowledges it, bet the nerfs are only starting to match it which is good not matter how hard it's denied.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2021

    @manu.7539 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Please nerf everything. What do we want? No runes! No stats! No weapons! No skills!

    I guess u play ranger, just as annoying on the battlefield than on this discussion!

    First of all, I do not play ranger - at all. Secondly, how is my presumable choice of class relevant here?