Taimi should probably die. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Taimi should probably die.

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  • Traveller.7496Traveller.7496 Member ✭✭✭

    I feel like the whole thing with transfering your consciousness to a machine / golem is a story beat that definitely could use more exploring. Unfortunately the GW2 writers haven't quite figured out if they want to do a serious story or a goofy story, so moments like Blish's death experience are completely washed away with a fast joke or a quip that's in the next sentence.

    It's probably the main thing I don't like, the tone keeps shifting so dramatically all the time.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:

    • I am not a fan of what I feel to be overly emotionally manipulative writing, of "kill off this beloved character simply for the thrill of it or because it allegedly, in some warped mind, 'strengthens the story' or simply because, as a writer, I can do that." Death with meaning? Sure. XXXXXX dies in Little Woman -- I get that, and it was obviously planned by the writer, but it works for me. Kill off everyone I care about? Nope. That is why I have stopped watching a certain popular television series multiple times, because I can't take the manipulation, the trolling, the intended, ugly, forced nature of the narrative. And yeah, I've come back to it, but I rather hate myself for having done so and I'm not sure I'll stick through to the protracted end. :) <--- edited to remove spoiler char name -- sorry!

    I think, in the light of killing of any character, it should be meaningful always. And as such, killing of the random NPC with the red shirt, so to speak, is less meaningful, than a beloved or hated character.

    I personally didn't really feel it with losing the mentor the first time, and it definitely became cheaper when replaying the other order storylines. But one part where I did think it was significant was where Elli lost her significant other Zott. And as far as Asuran characters go she is still by far one that I found to have a more memorable character than some of the main Asura characters tagging along. Definitely waiting for her return at some point. Best Asura Shout-holo-caster.

  • Overlord RainyDay.2084Overlord RainyDay.2084 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018

    I'm not in the "Taimi must die" camp, I like her, I just don't always like how she's used. She's always been the living embodiment of the child prodigy trope, but because of that there's no tension whenever she's involved. We always send her home when things get rough, and even when she does get caught (which is often), there's never any reason to worry because they'd never hurt "the kid". So most of the time she just ends up feeling like a plot device rather than a member of the team. She's the voice on the intercom, the one who solves all our problems when we're not looking, or the carrot dangled in front of us to get the players to run into danger to rescue her.

    I understand why Taimi has to be there to solve our problems. Sure in our personal story we could have been a genius inventor, or a masterful mage, but it's equally likely we weren't. So rather then have PCs who were drunken fool Norns rather then Snaff-Prize-Winning Asura suddenly develop a knack for magic research, somebody else gets to solve the problem, just like how we let Canach come up with all our sabotage plans, even if we were a double-sneaky former ash legion, order of whispers agent before becoming pact commander. Unfortunately, this leads to everyone else coming up with the ideas and solving the problems while the commander just gets aimed at anything in the way and set loose to smash faces.

    Taimi's just the one that stands out the most. With her solving all the "technical" problems, and her untouchable status as "the kid", she sometimes comes off as a mary sue character, where the only thing she ever does wrong is sometimes come up with solutions that are too good, and never suffers any consequences for bad things that happen to her. Sure she loses Scruffy time and time again, sometimes for years at a time (in game time), but the way the game's story works gives a bad sense of the passage of time. A new player starting today, running through HoT and PoF, would have no idea that there was 2 years between Scruffy 1.0's sacrifice in Rata Novus, and Scruffy 2.0's grand entrance. even for somebody who was playing during LS3, it still can seem like Taimi rebuilt scruffy overnight, and builds all her fancy gadgets just as quick. (Maybe it would help if story chapters were prefaced with what year they took place in.) Sure it's a little egotistical, but I think a lot of players would be happier with Taimi if there was something that took her down a peg, even if she doesn't deserve it. It's the same kind of situation with Trehearne where players who feel like they end up playing second fiddle to NPCs will resent them, even if those characters are fairly likable or inoffensive.

    As for Braham, I'm glad he came back instead of just being a brooding antihero forever. I just feel like he doesn't have a reason to hang around any more, and yet he's here. Bringing him and Rox back in the way they did feels a little contrived, as if they just couldn't think of anyone else to come to our rescue. Braham shows up out of nowhere, grumbles a bit, then falls back into his place in the party. He's just kind of along for the ride at this point, helping out because he ended up in the neighborhood and Joko's now a global threat. I'd really rather not drag the melodrama out all season long. If hanging out with us again and fighting alongside each other patched things up between us, then let's get it over with. Braham needs to either clear the air, or go sulk off back to Hoelbrak.

  • melodyca.8921melodyca.8921 Member ✭✭
    edited June 29, 2018

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Couple of personal thoughts:

    • I like Taimi and think she adds a lot to the story. I find her character interesting, her dialogue amusing, and her personality quite charming. As a whole, I think she enhances and propels the story in valuable ways.
    • I don't know that the lore says she has a "terminal" condition. I felt it was progressive and debilitating, but didn't sense it was ultimately terminal. (Probably some of you know better, though. Is it, truly?)
    • I am not a fan of what I feel to be overly emotionally manipulative writing, of "kill off this beloved character simply for the thrill of it or because it allegedly, in some warped mind, 'strengthens the story' or simply because, as a writer, I can do that." Death with meaning? Sure. XXXXXX dies in Little Woman -- I get that, and it was obviously planned by the writer, but it works for me. Kill off everyone I care about? Nope. That is why I have stopped watching a certain popular television series multiple times, because I can't take the manipulation, the trolling, the intended, ugly, forced nature of the narrative. And yeah, I've come back to it, but I rather hate myself for having done so and I'm not sure I'll stick through to the protracted end. :) <--- edited to remove spoiler char name -- sorry!

    I think I know which TV show you are referring to because I completely stopped watching it over a year ago but read the spoilers.

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    Taimi being deus ex machina on multiple occasions is a fact, not an opinion.

    And so what? Not everyone automatically hates those character types. Our characters are basically that in all the worst ways. There's never going to be a time when we face losing them. Characters like that can stay the same or I've seen them grow. She's a little girl and we'll have to see where she grows. I think people need to think just how many characters are done well anywhere. Its not that big of a number. Taking them off the board before you ever get the chance to explore them fully just strikes me as wrong unless you are churning out so many good characters you're a modern day prodigy in writing today. Sure, I find her annoying at times like I do most children in fiction. I think back to any time a hero has children and they become the most annoying aspect of a show. Lots of fans hate female love interest of heroes. I can't think of any of those where fans don't want them dead. I don't know what it is about fans needing some blood. It certainly doesn't elevate the material. It leaves less to work with.

    Someone mentioned not many deaths in all the story, but in the personal story we have lots of them. They are just mostly nameless. Just replaying the personal story besides the various unnamed deaths, I lost Apatia and Zott over the course of a handful of chapters. Didn't have much development but I thought they were interesting enough I'd like to see them continue. We've already have such a small of well known characters as it is. But getting rid of those we do have because they annoy someone, that's just a poor excuse to me.

    I happen to find most Asura to be incredibly annoying and think of ways we could destroy the race if a Guild Wars 3 ever happens. I hope to god we never see them in another game. But if they're there, I'll get over it and maybe start to appreciate them more. Characters like Taimi help but to me, her characteristics are an Asura issue not deus ex machina. They're all that.

  • I think (barely) that we can ALL agree on one thing------------Aurene is COMPLETELY "fed up" with Joko and his antics!! (She may still have to see a vet-- but probably only to purge the heavy metal from her system!!)

  • Haleydawn.3764Haleydawn.3764 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    Well Taimi did say that as she gets older the degenerative effect may spread to other parts of her body. If that included her vital organs, especially her heart and lungs, it could kill her.

    We have been told it's a degenerative bone condition. Now, I'm not sure about asura anatomy, but I don't think their organs will be made of bone! :P

    Better get a wriggle on.

  • @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    Couple of personal thoughts:

    • I like Taimi and think she adds a lot to the story. I find her character interesting, her dialogue amusing, and her personality quite charming. As a whole, I think she enhances and propels the story in valuable ways.
    • I don't know that the lore says she has a "terminal" condition. I felt it was progressive and debilitating, but didn't sense it was ultimately terminal. (Probably some of you know better, though. Is it, truly?)
    • I am not a fan of what I feel to be overly emotionally manipulative writing, of "kill off this beloved character simply for the thrill of it or because it allegedly, in some warped mind, 'strengthens the story' or simply because, as a writer, I can do that." Death with meaning? Sure. XXXXXXX dies in Little Woman -- I get that, and it was obviously planned by the writer, but it works for me. Kill off everyone I care about? Nope. That is why I have stopped watching a certain popular television series multiple times, because I can't take the manipulation, the trolling, the intended, ugly, forced nature of the narrative. And yeah, I've come back to it, but I rather hate myself for having done so and I'm not sure I'll stick through to the protracted end. :) <--- edited to remove spoiler char name -- sorry!

    Or, as Elmer (the) Fudd has repeated time and again---"I'm off to kill the wabbit"-----------------------which would leave him with absolutely NOTHING else to do (except kill himself---------------and I seriously doubt he even knows which end of the gun gets loaded-------and which is the exit!!

  • @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Majory and Kas would be the perfect ones to kill off only because we have emotional depth and have some context for them outside of the whole fighting for the survival of the world thing. One of them dying would cause the other to grow and thus bring on character development, At this point Majory seems like the candidate but Im not sure if it would be right as Kas has had sooooo much development that her going might be for the best to let Majory actually drop her "Tough girl" Act.

    That WOULD clear up the "love triangle" in the storyline-----------wouldn't it?

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    Taimi being deus ex machina on multiple occasions is a fact, not an opinion.

    And so what?

    And so there are some problems with writing that you can't defend with "that's just your opinion bro" tactic.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haleydawn.3764 said:

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    Well Taimi did say that as she gets older the degenerative effect may spread to other parts of her body. If that included her vital organs, especially her heart and lungs, it could kill her.

    We have been told it's a degenerative bone condition. Now, I'm not sure about asura anatomy, but I don't think their organs will be made of bone! :P

    Ah, I don't tend to watch the developer interviews, so I missed that. In-game it's just been referred to as a degenerative condition, which is admittedly vague but could mean it could affect any part of her body.

    Danielle Aurorel - Desolation EU. Mini Collector.

    "I know that I'm born and I know that I'll die, the in-between is mine."

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    She can’t die. If she dies the Commander would have to think up important stuff.

    Bookah problems. ;)

    Although I will concede that Taimi is smarter than the Snaff Savant. And in any case Taimi is my favourite character! :D

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • I quit caring about the story as a reason to play back in LS2 when the writers made that grotesque story turn with Wynne, Caithe & Faolain. I haven't trusted them since, and haven't wanted to even try. I skip every bit as much of story cutscene as I am allowed. Killing off Taimi "just because" would be a couple steps removed from that, and yet would continue to reinforce (for me at least) that untrustworthiness. Why should I be willing to invest myself in liking or caring about what happens to characters that will either be killed off on a whim of a writer, or worse, be forced to commit an atrocity because someone thinks stories need pain to be meaningful. I love this game, I enjoy many many aspects about it, but the story is one area that I have become a passionate antagonist against GW2.

  • Comus.7365Comus.7365 Member ✭✭

    haven't gone through the whole story yet.. but so far she's one of my favorites and i think that character got loads of potential.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IMHO, characters should only die in 3 situations:

    • Suddenly and unexpectedly when part of a multi-protagonist story with serious and realistic gray morality tone, to make clear the basic and powerful "anyone can die here" that make such stories so good.
    • Contemplatively, within an intimist story where the characters struggle to grow internally, with death marking the end of their struggle, be it as a final step towards their true self, or as an impossible to overcome, tragic, final obstacle in the path of salvation.
    • As part of a very meaningful action initiated by the character itself. Think of heroes sacrificing their lives for the greater good, villains falling victims of their own evil desires, anti-heroes choosing to accept a fitting destiny, or a designed example-person making a mistake extremely relevant to the story.

    Guild Wars 2 is not a multi-protagonist story, and only allows subtle dashes of gray, so the first option is totally out. The characters aren't really multidimensional either, so an "introspective" death is not going to work. This leaves the third, more archetypal death.
    So, please, Anet, don't kill characters without a MEANINGFUL action initiated by THEM. Also, please don't kill anybody, (good, bad or a bit of both) without HUGE consequences for EVERYONE.

  • InvaGir.9158InvaGir.9158 Member ✭✭✭

    Well...

    Wiki says she might die very soon due to her disability so all we can do is wait.
    Although I really like Taimi I don't want to see her die:(

  • I dont care much about Taimi but i really wish we had the option of personally kill Faren.

  • Magnus Godrik.5841Magnus Godrik.5841 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Kanach would be perfect to die and be more impactful. Why? Because everyone loves him. You want the audience to feel the loss.

  • Aodlop.1907Aodlop.1907 Member ✭✭✭

    To be honest, thanks to Taimi, I enjoy the story much more. Her comments always make me smile. So no matter how painful death you wish to her, I hope that Anet won't listen to you. And I know many people who would hope the same.

    You miss the point. I too enjoy Taimi, I like her a lot.
    That's exactly why I want her dead.

  • Taimi is my favourite character, and by far the most enjoyable part of the story, with the best/most fun dialogues (though Canach is cool too), I hope she stays alive and well. If anything did happen then I imagine my interest / enjoyment playing future story episodes will drop quite a bit.

  • Haco.1546Haco.1546 Member ✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    I hope anet doesnt try to invent a way for her to survive and her lethal disease finally gets her once and for all.

    Well, your physical body may die, but maybe your mind won't...

  • Akath.2650Akath.2650 Member ✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018

    @particlepinata.9865 said:
    Why does every character always have to die? And why does everyone or everything always got to be 'hated'. Is is me or is this forum becoming more and more immature?

    Exactly, the forum is getting more toxic over the time. Like "The 'community' dislikes the current story position if someone doesn't die it won't have any impact!"
    I think just because you don't enjoy the current story doesn't mean everyone doesn't and Taimi has had some character development in this season already.

  • Embered.5089Embered.5089 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd prefer not to run all the hypotheticals that Taimi does for me. Or think about what so and so would mean, as Taimi does for me. I also don't have the capacity to build a functioning, kick-kitten golem as Taimi can. I need Taimi in my team.
    Braham, on the other hand... or maybe even Canach, since I'm worth only a sack (albeit a large one) of money to him.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nah. She should get a new body.

    First, give Blish a new body, using the Dynamics Exo-Suit model so he doesn't look like a crappy golem and so he never gets turned off again, and trapped into a abysmal void.

    Then, thanks to what she learned from making Blish's body, she should make herself a new body, this time with a more asura-like face, instead having a single crystal eye golem.

  • Tachenon.5270Tachenon.5270 Member ✭✭✭

    I say keep Taimi alive. And bring back Scarlet. By way of Taimi grafting various and sundry sylvari parts together along with, say, Scarlet's heartwood (or brainwood) or something. That would be fun. Yeah.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:
    It is not worth it to write a wall of text in here explaining why Taimi will not die regardless of my personal opinion about it. I think I'll just bold the relevant sentence to you guys: Taimi is a plot device more than she is a character.

    To me this is the issue.

    I dont want the character killed off, I just dont care for the excessive, IMO, use as a plot device.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Haven't seen anyone request that a child die in this thread. Some requests, with which I disagree, for a piece of fiction to be killed off though.

  • Fremtid.3528Fremtid.3528 Member ✭✭✭

    Still some morbid people.

  • aspirine.5839aspirine.5839 Member ✭✭✭

    This is not game of thrones, so keep some of them alive. They will probably be dead whenever GW3 is coming so patience for the ones that do want to see them all gone . :)

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:

    • I like Taimi and think she adds a lot to the story.

    I like her now and would find it a shame to see her removed now that she has finally grown into a bearable, empathic personality.

    • I don't know that the lore says she has a "terminal" condition.

    Nope, it was never said that is was terminal. In fact, her disability makes for a lot of interesting future content (see her fascination with Blish's current state of existence).

    • I am not a fan of what I feel to be overly emotionally manipulative writing, of "kill off this beloved character simply for the thrill of it or because it allegedly, in some warped mind, 'strengthens the story' or simply because, as a writer, I can do that."

    :+1: Amen to that. ;)

  • Twyn.7320Twyn.7320 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem with the two sides of the debate is that one side believes in one extreme, and the other believes in the other extreme. Objectively, neither side wants full Disney, or Game of Thrones.

    Clarification: Game of Thrones is a beautiful expression of character development between Seasons 1-5, after that it becomes predictable. All of the deaths in Game of Thrones S1-S5 have a reason to exist, and are driven by the needs of the narrative. Disney have regularly shown that they can conjure the most thought-provoking characters through animation, however, each character has a degree of maturity despite being used for comedic purposes. Death in both cases happens because the narrative demands it, and because the characters cause it.

    The comment about not enjoying overly emotional and manipulative writing is obviously subjective, but I think people would be hard-pressed to find someone who actually enjoys that. Forced deaths are always badly written. Forced hero moments are always badly written. Forced representation is always badly written. This is a trend in modern media, however. Passive viewership is actually the worst thing to come out of this generation's media, because it allows companies to make bare-minimum narratives with superficial connections to push a contemporary political message.

    I adore Game of Thrones and Disney for different reasons, but it's like the two aren't compatible to some people. It's very faction-based. The problem lies in flipping between the two in storytelling. They're polar opposites, despite sharing the same depth in narrative focus. It's why aspects of Episode 3 (Long Live the Lich) felt so jarring, especially Canach's whistling outside the gates of Gandara, whilst we fought off Joko's hordes in a desperate hour. This forced comedy might be funny on paper, but in the experience, it takes away from the moment and reminds the player that they're just a player in a game. The immersion's lost in this instance, and Guild Wars 2 frequently does this. In a tense moment, humour can be beautiful, but it can't happen every single time, otherwise, it loses its impact. The timing of humour is 90% of the joke, and I feel as if Guild Wars 2 fails on the timing, and often has cringe-worthy jokes in the place of dry, witty humour, such as 'KA-BRAHAM'. It didn't work for me, and it's subjective, but the 'E-P-I-D-E-M-I-C' part without the 'KA-BRAHAM' would've been quite amusing.

    To take the Canach example, the humour shouldn't have hit during the fighting, only after the barrier was up and the gate was destroyed. So, we destroy the gate, it's a tense moment, the Awakened hordes try to rush out etc etc. The barrier goes up and Canach says: "Well, that was close." However, throughout the fighting, the members of Dragon's Watch are trying to get Canach to speed up, adding to the tension. The moment that they're in the clear, Canach says that line, and it's a bit amusing because it's relevant to both his character and alleviates the tension that we've just felt building up in the combat section. And afterwards, that can be followed by Braham stating: "You don't say. Next time, you could shave off a few seconds before we die, you know?" Canach replies: "I can only go as fast as my fingers allow me to."

    I don't enjoy critiquing without offering an alternative solution. Obviously, my solutions are also subjective and some people may dislike the alternative, that's fine! I'll let you read this bit for now, but try not to stick to extremes. There's always a middle-ground for narratives.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Haleydawn.3764 said:

    @Twyn.7320 said:
    Gorrik is basically 'Phlunt Lite', being 'on the spectrum' and still has more potential than Taimi. Honestly like, they could save Kasmeer and Rytlock, kill off the rest and the Dragon's Watch story wouldn't lose anything and would probably become better. They've character-assassinated Braham, Rox is basically invisible, along with Marjory, Taimi's never been developed and acts as a stereotype, and Canach's devolving every single episode.

    There's a misguided argument at the moment that there's too much death in Guild Wars 2.

    There isn't enough consequence in the narrative. The Commander walks into one of the most dangerous places in the world, with almost the full roster of Dragon's Watch, and no one dies or gets injured. The only character that gets injured off-screen is Faren, and everyone on the forums claps and cries: 'Amazing story, best thing ever.' It's beyond predictable and terribly written. I can't understand how people play through the same formula over and over, and feel that it's amazing.

    The Living Story Formula: Instance, Instance, Hearts, Final Instance.

    It never deviates, and it never works. The Hearts aspect is just lazy, at least they changed it slightly for Episode 3 so we're not just doing the Hearts, but it just sets up the Hearts for a later date, as everything that we do contributes to the yellow bar. The first Instance always has a dramatic event, and it's poorly handled. The second Instance involves travelling to the new zone. The final Instance is the big conclusion that always has a strange ending. It never changes. We wait 3 months, and we get the same formula. Why can't we deviate from this? How about we travel to the zone in the first Instance, and then the whole story takes place in that zone? How about we do a mini-quest that isn't tied to the Hearts and takes place in a ruin, or something? You can't change the final Instance, I understand that... but at least handle the dramatics with good writing. ANet has only hit the mark once with an ending, and that was: Living World Season 3 Episode 1, which still remains the best Living World Episode IMO, and probably the best story that they've ever told. Everything else has either been filler or a huge let-down with missed opportunities, and most of these missed opportunities comes from character-assassinations, or just bad writing. It's actually quite frustrating to see so much potential wasted by a family-friendly, predictable narrative team, and forced representation.

    A final note: Forced Representation + Bad Writing = Horrendous, Insulting Characters. Gorrik is actually an insult to people who are 'on the spectrum'. Anet's portrayal of Gorrik isn't accurate, and it's just glorifying something that's quite intricate to write. There are positives and negatives to all situations, but if you only focus on the positives, the character loses all sense of reality and becomes forced.

    I wish I could like this 100 times. Absolutely spot on. The story is a predictable cadence at this point, and nothing shocking actually happens. Some scenes in Long Live the Lich were pretty good, funny even, albeit predictable. We all knew Joko would be no more after this. But that is the point of how any game is, you're the hero, they're the enemy. Ofcourse you'll triumph.
    There's no sense of desperation, nothing that makes you feel for the story, the characters, or the call of battle. I don't know if this is because I've gotten older, or if it's down to the writing, but good writing should give me this sense of, 'The world needs me, or we're truly doomed'. This was, oh plague, ok, let's squish some bugs. Joko's personality is what I like in an enemy, cunning, smart, and his monologue at the very end was probably the best dialogue of the entire Episode. Some home truths, and self reflection.

    If the two of you knew before hand that Joko was not going to live beyond this episode that is prescient, there was actually no reason to think we would be taking him down this episode at all. As a matter of fact the more logical(and groan worthy) step would have been for us to attempt to defeat him only to lose and have to regroup, however, once it became clear he was going down the method of his demise was perfectly well orchestrated(yes, it was orchestrated, if you didn't know that Aurene would kill him then you didn't pay attention in the first instance).

    As for your contention, it's a game, it has to flow from point A to B to C to end, it really can't deviate from that script without throwing everything for a loop, and believe it or not, you do not have to do the hearts to continue the story(in all cases, sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't), they are ancillary and not integral to completing the story line.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    And so there are some problems with writing that you can't defend with "that's just your opinion bro" tactic.

    Well, bro, I think I did just that in my last response. Now your opinion may seem like fact to you but that doesn't change that its just opinion. And in any case if the writers like writing her and people like her in the game then that seals the deal of her fate. Chances are she's more likely to die when new writers come along that don't care to write the character. But simply putting her in structure school removes her from future stories so its interesting that death was called for. Death has rarely had long term consequences for this level of story and more often serves of that one episode where the hero was sad. Though it would be interesting to see if the story of GW2 killing off a crippled child would make traction.

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @Tachenon.5270 said:
    I say keep Taimi alive. And bring back Scarlet. By way of Taimi grafting various and sundry sylvari parts together along with, say, Scarlet's heartwood (or brainwood) or something. That would be fun. Yeah.

    Can't she just regrow her like a little Groot?

  • Twyn.7320Twyn.7320 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Haleydawn.3764 said:

    @Twyn.7320 said:
    Gorrik is basically 'Phlunt Lite', being 'on the spectrum' and still has more potential than Taimi. Honestly like, they could save Kasmeer and Rytlock, kill off the rest and the Dragon's Watch story wouldn't lose anything and would probably become better. They've character-assassinated Braham, Rox is basically invisible, along with Marjory, Taimi's never been developed and acts as a stereotype, and Canach's devolving every single episode.

    There's a misguided argument at the moment that there's too much death in Guild Wars 2.

    There isn't enough consequence in the narrative. The Commander walks into one of the most dangerous places in the world, with almost the full roster of Dragon's Watch, and no one dies or gets injured. The only character that gets injured off-screen is Faren, and everyone on the forums claps and cries: 'Amazing story, best thing ever.' It's beyond predictable and terribly written. I can't understand how people play through the same formula over and over, and feel that it's amazing.

    The Living Story Formula: Instance, Instance, Hearts, Final Instance.

    It never deviates, and it never works. The Hearts aspect is just lazy, at least they changed it slightly for Episode 3 so we're not just doing the Hearts, but it just sets up the Hearts for a later date, as everything that we do contributes to the yellow bar. The first Instance always has a dramatic event, and it's poorly handled. The second Instance involves travelling to the new zone. The final Instance is the big conclusion that always has a strange ending. It never changes. We wait 3 months, and we get the same formula. Why can't we deviate from this? How about we travel to the zone in the first Instance, and then the whole story takes place in that zone? How about we do a mini-quest that isn't tied to the Hearts and takes place in a ruin, or something? You can't change the final Instance, I understand that... but at least handle the dramatics with good writing. ANet has only hit the mark once with an ending, and that was: Living World Season 3 Episode 1, which still remains the best Living World Episode IMO, and probably the best story that they've ever told. Everything else has either been filler or a huge let-down with missed opportunities, and most of these missed opportunities comes from character-assassinations, or just bad writing. It's actually quite frustrating to see so much potential wasted by a family-friendly, predictable narrative team, and forced representation.

    A final note: Forced Representation + Bad Writing = Horrendous, Insulting Characters. Gorrik is actually an insult to people who are 'on the spectrum'. Anet's portrayal of Gorrik isn't accurate, and it's just glorifying something that's quite intricate to write. There are positives and negatives to all situations, but if you only focus on the positives, the character loses all sense of reality and becomes forced.

    I wish I could like this 100 times. Absolutely spot on. The story is a predictable cadence at this point, and nothing shocking actually happens. Some scenes in Long Live the Lich were pretty good, funny even, albeit predictable. We all knew Joko would be no more after this. But that is the point of how any game is, you're the hero, they're the enemy. Ofcourse you'll triumph.
    There's no sense of desperation, nothing that makes you feel for the story, the characters, or the call of battle. I don't know if this is because I've gotten older, or if it's down to the writing, but good writing should give me this sense of, 'The world needs me, or we're truly doomed'. This was, oh plague, ok, let's squish some bugs. Joko's personality is what I like in an enemy, cunning, smart, and his monologue at the very end was probably the best dialogue of the entire Episode. Some home truths, and self reflection.

    If the two of you knew before hand that Joko was not going to live beyond this episode that is prescient, there was actually no reason to think we would be taking him down this episode at all. As a matter of fact the more logical(and groan worthy) step would have been for us to attempt to defeat him only to lose and have to regroup, however, once it became clear he was going down the method of his demise was perfectly well orchestrated(yes, it was orchestrated, if you didn't know that Aurene would kill him then you didn't pay attention in the first instance).

    As for your contention, it's a game, it has to flow from point A to B to C to end, it really can't deviate from that script without throwing everything for a loop, and believe it or not, you do not have to do the hearts to continue the story(in all cases, sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't), they are ancillary and not integral to completing the story line.

    It's not actually prescient. It's a trend with Guild Wars 2's story-telling, and that's why the format's become extremely predictable. It basically works like this:

    Does the character do something that could result in a world-ending or race-ending threat? If yes, they'll die in the next story that involves them.

    This was the case with Caudecus. He posed a real threat to Divinity's Reach in Out of the Shadows, and so, he was executed in the Lake Doric narrative. It was also the case with Lazarus. He posed a real threat if he was able to be resurrected in the White Mantle narrative, so Livia put an end to him with our help in One Path Ends. It was also the case with Balthazar. He posed a world-ending threat in Draconis Mons, and became the villain of Path of Fire, so he died in its conclusion. Joko is just the most recent villain to die in the next story that involved him. He posed a threat to all of the Human nations by collecting the Scarab Plague in A Bug in the System that could wipe them out in days or weeks, so he was going to die in Long Live the Lich. This is what I meant by 'the narrative is very predictable', because the formula never changes. The villains never win in any large or small way, except in one instance: Scarlet.

    Even though Scarlet died, her effect on the world still exists to this date. She caused the awakening of Mordremoth, which in turn, led to the magical explosions that we've seen in recent Episodes. It's not a surprise that this type of story-telling died with LWS1. Anet is petrified of repeating LWS1's formula, due to its controversial history. It's been several years since then, and I doubt that they'd mess it up like that again. Just because one aspect of LWS1 went wrong, it doesn't mean that the whole thing was terrible.

    As for the hearts, you actually have to complete them in some Episodes to progress the narrative. For instance, Daybreak made the player complete the Astralarium heart in order to progress into the Sunspears' sanctuary. Without doing that, you couldn't carry on with the story, and it was ultimately dull story-telling to introduce players to the hearts in the zone of Istan.

    As for the 'it's a game, it can't deviate from a set formula or script', that isn't the case. A script goes through multiple edits as the chapter's being made, so it's possible to deviate from a formula, they're just choosing not to. For instance, Peter Fries admitted that LWS4 was originally going to have a huge sub-plot where Joko instructed an Awakened Assassin, likely a lore character, to hunt down and eliminate members of Dragon's Watch to weaken his opposition. At the end of Episode 3, we'd have to fight the Awakened versions of the eliminated Dragon's Watch members. However, they decided to cut this because it was 'too dark'. Despite being the most interesting idea to come from the Narrative Team in a LONG time IMO, they're very quick to cut anything or edit anything that may deviate from the traditional formula of Guild Wars 2's story-telling.

    And finally, as for Aurene killing Joko. I think that's one of the most predictable aspects of Long Live the Lich. By the time that they hadn't introduced anything to do with 'how to kill Joko', which was just before Be My Guest, I knew that Aurene would be the cause. I just hoped that Aurene wouldn't be the cause of Joko's death because the narrative needed a few more Episodes with Joko, IMO. However, I'd already said my goodbyes to Joko when the Official Trailer released for Long Live the Lich. The title basically gave it away, because at the death of a monarch, the people usually chant: 'Long Live the Queen/King'.

    Anyway, this is why I feel that the story is noticeably predictable, and why I've been able to predict the narrative trends since Living World Season 3. You may choose to disagree with me, as if I can't be a prophet in that way. However, it's very simple to work out what's going to happen if you look at the narrative trends of Guild Wars 2. Until this changes, I'm going to be a really snazzy prophet with a diamond crown and a golden goblet of wine. ;)

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I kind of saw Joko dying from a mile away too, but I'm actually glad for it because I'd grown tired of him. He got a ridiculous amount if exposure and putting him in even more episodes would have been overdoing it I feel.

  • OrbitalButt.5708OrbitalButt.5708 Member ✭✭✭

    Load her into a trebuchet and aim it at a landfill

  • Tsakhi.8124Tsakhi.8124 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018

    I find being trapped in your own body with no means of escape is much more terrifying than dying. Also, as horrible as it sounds, I'm surprised that the subject of the PC contemplating suicide hasn't been brought up. I mean, I heard desperation as you fought your double. That feeling of doing what you feel is right and then ultimately screwing things up worse truly feels awful. Maybe I'm thinking too much into this.

    Want some pancakes?

  • Amethyst Lure.5624Amethyst Lure.5624 Member ✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018

    I'm fine with Taimi, now that she's being used a bit less as a pure plot crutch and we learn more of her character. For me it's more alarming how little Kas and Jory there is, for a goodly while overall. I know not all love them, but I always liked what A-net has done with them, even if they fared worse in writing of late through that lack of presence. I get that some hate relationship stuff but for me that is just part of a storyline as much as any other interaction, if handled well.

    I have to say though, I really love Braham right now. Finally we norn players get a character that starts to feel like one, after Eir.

  • CedarDog.9723CedarDog.9723 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2018

    Ooo. They could have Braham cloned a bunch of times, like in those Mordrem pods. Then they could kill off all of the main characters. Except Braham.

    Or alternatively, they could clone Braham a ton of times and replace ALL of the NPCs in the game with Braham and make it so the clones can only say "Eirsson"...

  • @Aodlop.1907 said:
    It would have an impact, it's a really liked character, much like Tybalt.

    Everyone's taste is different... I found Tybalt kind of annoying and was actually a bit glad when he died. TBH I like playing through as whispers but I really wish there was an option to have a different mentor than Tybalt. But, Taimi is awesome and must never die. :smiley:

  • Tekoneiric.6817Tekoneiric.6817 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018

    I love Taimi. Her dying would ruin the game for me like the one character dying in The Bridge to Terabithia. I refuse to watch that movie again. Besides she's the Commander's (James Bond) Q. The only way she can die and not ruin the game story is if she uploads herself to a Golem and you interact with it and a holographic projection of her mortal form.

  • Warkind.6745Warkind.6745 Member ✭✭✭

    I just want them to stop doing weird stuff like Kasmeer's sudden Kormir obsession.

    All is vain.

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