If current raids are too difficult for you, you are not the target demographic of raiding content — Guild Wars 2 Forums

If current raids are too difficult for you, you are not the target demographic of raiding content

Change my mind.

<1

Comments

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 13, 2019

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Change my mind.

    Not going to get into this any further beyond this post, as it's been discussed to death, and is unlikely to change given their inclusion of Strikes in the upcoming living story season.

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984/#Comment_113984

  • what if raids are too easy for me?

  • @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    what if raids are too easy for me?

    It's the same, you're not "part of the target demographics", obviously, for the very same reason.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • i don't wanna change your mind because i agree

    "clang clang shriiiiek clang!" -Belinda Delaqua
    When I join your LFG

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm no part of any target demographic, so obviously I agree with you.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Change my mind.

    Not going to get into this any further beyond this post, as it's been discussed to death, and is unlikely to change given their inclusion of Strikes in the upcoming living story season.

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984/#Comment_113984

    Recent interview with Mike Z:

    Is there room for a ‘story’ difficulty in raids and other high-end content?

    MZ: There is. There’s a constant, constant tug. Do we go build new raids for the raid group, or do we pull somebody to go make the old raids easier? The Bastion of the Penitent is one that we get a lot of comments on, because it’s the Saul D’Alessio story and the mursaat. It’s a very powerful, moving story, and it was very self-contained to that raid. So unless you’re a raider, you never see it.

    I would not rule it out. The thing that we need to be careful about is how we manage that expectation. Because if we go back and release ‘story mode’ for an individual raid, that is taking time away from other things like being able to build additional raid content for the raiders. We want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Change my mind.

    Not going to get into this any further beyond this post, as it's been discussed to death, and is unlikely to change given their inclusion of Strikes in the upcoming living story season.

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984/#Comment_113984

    Recent interview with Mike Z:

    Is there room for a ‘story’ difficulty in raids and other high-end content?

    MZ: There is. There’s a constant, constant tug. Do we go build new raids for the raid group, or do we pull somebody to go make the old raids easier? The Bastion of the Penitent is one that we get a lot of comments on, because it’s the Saul D’Alessio story and the mursaat. It’s a very powerful, moving story, and it was very self-contained to that raid. So unless you’re a raider, you never see it.

    I would not rule it out. The thing that we need to be careful about is how we manage that expectation. Because if we go back and release ‘story mode’ for an individual raid, that is taking time away from other things like being able to build additional raid content for the raiders. We want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.

    Except story mode probably will be nothing like the raid and it won't have any of the rewards; the latter of which players demanding an easy mode still want.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the take away from today's Mike Z interview is pretty definitive. Tiered difficulty levels are something they are most definitely considering - albeit with a close eye on resources and achieving a balance between the hardcore and access to a story mode. His comments about the Bastion of the Penitent storyline are pretty straightforward.

    Do I expect to see this anytime soon? Of course not. But it is good to see that they are attempting to look at this issue from multiple perspectives - and that is the right thing to do. Raids as they are now are not sustainable in any way - they are too easy for "real" raiders and too hard for more casual story-oriented players. It's time to stop fighting against a split (tiered levels) and look for ways to make raids even harder while, on the other side, offering a way to simply experience the content (including the fights) for those who don't necessarily want to play the build/meta game.

  • Your mind is of no consequence to this, the developer's opinion is what's going to stick, and they have plenty of playtime data rather than forum feedback to refer to. Someone already linked both Reid's (old post) and Mike's much more recent interview about this, and they seem to actually have a larger demographic under their radar, of which Strike Missions might not be the final solution but rather a step towards changing raids in themselves. Either way there is no way for us to predict this and target demographics can and do change overtime. You're not being very good at advertising a brand if you think you can explicitly choose a target demographic and have a constant number of followers instead of adapting your own brand to whoever wants to try it out (and do this while not alienating the people who are already hooked up, which is why this is so much more difficult than most posts here make it out to be).

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    I think the take away from today's Mike Z interview is pretty definitive. Tiered difficulty levels are something they are most definitely considering - albeit with a close eye on resources and achieving a balance between the hardcore and access to a story mode. His comments about the Bastion of the Penitent storyline are pretty straightforward.

    Do I expect to see this anytime soon? Of course not. But it is good to see that they are attempting to look at this issue from multiple perspectives - and that is the right thing to do. Raids as they are now are not sustainable in any way - they are too easy for "real" raiders and too hard for more casual story-oriented players. It's time to stop fighting against a split (tiered levels) and look for ways to make raids even harder while, on the other side, offering a way to simply experience the content (including the fights) for those who don't necessarily want to play the build/meta game.

    If that is the take away you are having from the answer, you are very very optimistic. I'm reading into that: we don't have the resources, we will try not to lock story behind raid content, past raid content will probably never see any change in difficulty.

    He is literally saying that they would rather create new content than revisit old content. Yes, future content, in this case strikes, might scale (think dragon bash), but raids will not.

    That's what I also read from this interview tbh.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would not rule it out. The thing that we need to be careful about is how we manage that expectation. Because if we go back and release ‘story mode’ for an individual raid, that is taking time away from other things like being able to build additional raid content for the raiders. We want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.

    Very simple solution: let the living world team(s) create Raids from now on. Then the Raid team can expand on the already finished easy Raids and make much more interesting/exciting modes for them. There is already a lack of Raids, reducing their release pace even further would be the same as removing the content from the game completely. That way both groups get what they want.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Strike missions are intended to get everyone into raiding. Raiding is becoming the new endgame goal and content as both fractals and strikes will be used to push people toward raids. Basically what I gathered off of the article that came out last night is they want EVERYONE to get into raiding which either means they will be making easier raids going forward in more bulk. OR they will make a huge difficulty spike in upcoming content similar to HoT to push people toward specific builds, this could go along with class traitline reworks and class skill changes. (I think they are going to equalize everything to the same power scale as PoF, so you can run at least flavor wise what you like. But it will all be kind of marginalized acrossed the board. Or homogenized.)

    https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring

    The article goes into more detail, they speak a lot about it and going forward it seems to me that the content for end game is going to be this.
    1. PvP==> specifically conquest, with off seasons.
    2. WvW with the restructure coming, and perhaps new maps for rotations? Who knows anymore.
    3. Fractals/strikes====> Raid training
    4. Raids with much more of a cadence.
    5. Harder open-world content===> Reworks of core maps for more cohesive difficulty scale with all the bells and whistles. Pushing people to learn the game in its entirety to make it so there is not such a disparity between the "Casuals" and the "elitists".

    So to me it sounds like the WoW treatment, where like in retail WoW it holds your hand through the earlier content a lot more and uses content in open world/dungeons to teach you mechanics. And you're expected to know your class, role and how your playstyle works and what skills do and cc bars are so there won't be anymore of people going "What is dat!?!?!".

    So streamlined guild wars 2 is on the way with everyone being pushed into playing like the min-maxing raiders. (Insert tony stark eye-roll here.)

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    OR they will make a huge difficulty spike in upcoming content similar to HoT to push people toward specific builds

    Reworks of core maps for more cohesive difficulty scale with all the bells and whistles.

    Impairing build variety is not good, in Open World it's worse than for fotm or raids.
    If even open world PvE demands builds that people do not have fun with, more people will leave the game.

    make it so there is not such a disparity between the "Casuals" and the "elitists".

    If casuals are gone, there will be no disparity anyway.

    If Arenanet wants to make harder content, they should restrict it to instanced content that is not part of the "main story".

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    OR they will make a huge difficulty spike in upcoming content similar to HoT to push people toward specific builds

    Reworks of core maps for more cohesive difficulty scale with all the bells and whistles.

    Impairing build variety is not good, in Open World it's worse than for fotm or raids.
    If even open world PvE demands builds that people do not have fun with, more people will leave the game.

    make it so there is not such a disparity between the "Casuals" and the "elitists".

    If casuals are gone, there will be no disparity anyway.

    If Arenanet wants to make harder content, they should restrict it to instanced content that is not part of the "main story".

    I just find it hard to believe people argue against scaling difficulty in a video game.
    You're seriously saying that by level 80 you shouldnt have to have a decent build for open world?
    that you shouldnt have to swap a trait or weapon or two around occasionally?
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2019

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    I just find it hard to believe people argue against scaling difficulty in a video game.
    You're seriously saying that by level 80 you shouldnt have to have a decent build for open world?
    that you shouldnt have to swap a trait or weapon or two around occasionally?

    What if people simply do not enjoy Meta builds, but have fun with inferior builds?
    Why shouldn't these people at least be able to enjoy Open World?

    For example, the build I currently enjoy most is Fire/air/Tempest ele with daggers.
    This isn't even close to being meta.
    If Arenanet pushes Open PvE so far that people can't play the builds they enjoy, do you think they stay in the game and use builds that are no fun to them?

    This is why we can't have nice things.

    You already have high tier fractals and raids.
    Soon, you will have Strike Missions.
    You already have several "main story" bosses that can floor sub-optimal builds, including Balthazar and Mordremoth.

    And you want to raise open world difficulty?

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sure, but I see no reason to give the vast majority of average skilled players an easy- or story mode variant of the current raid missions to allow them to experience this part of the game in their own difficulty level.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    I just find it hard to believe people argue against scaling difficulty in a video game.
    You're seriously saying that by level 80 you shouldnt have to have a decent build for open world?
    that you shouldnt have to swap a trait or weapon or two around occasionally?

    What if people simply do not enjoy Meta builds, but have fun with inferior builds?
    Why shouldn't these people at least be able to enjoy Open World?

    No one said meta.
    I said decent. There are a lot of people with unviable builds that get by simply from the carry in large groups.
    I do not feel these players should be catered to in the least. I believe the content should encourage them to get better.

    For example, the build I currently enjoy most is Fire/air/Tempest ele with daggers.
    This isn't even close to being meta.
    If Arenanet pushes Open PvE so far that people can't play the builds they enjoy, do you think they stay in the game and use builds that are no fun to them?

    This is why we can't have nice things.

    You already have high tier fractals and raids.
    Soon, you will have Strike Missions.
    You already have several "main story" bosses that can floor sub-optimal builds, including Balthazar and Mordremoth.

    And you want to raise open world difficulty?

    I absolutely do.
    It will be much healthier for the game in the long run.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    It will be much healthier for the game in the long run

    Why don't you just play FF14 endgame or become a mystic raider in WoW if GW2 is too easy for you?
    Ruining the only content designed for casuals (the vast majority) just so a very small minority finds challenge everywhere isn't going to work out.
    Casuals aren't magically turning into elitist level players. They are going to find new games.
    I don't think kicking out the majority of the player base is healthy for any game.
    If they were to implement a hard mode for Open World, like they did in GW2, THAT would be a different story.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    It will be much healthier for the game in the long run

    Why don't you just play FF14 endgame or become a mystic raider in WoW if GW2 is too easy for you?
    Ruining the only content designed for casuals (the vast majority) just so a very small minority finds challenge everywhere isn't going to work out.
    Casuals aren't magically turning into elitist level players. They are going to find new games.
    I don't think kicking out the majority of the player base is healthy for any game.
    If they were to implement a hard mode for Open World, like they did in GW2, THAT would be a different story.

    I mean more difficult content will be good, they just need to make the stats we have in the game viable. Find a way to make everything good so people can play as they like and equalize power acrossed the board. There are ways to make things challenging while not harming build diversity and the theory crafting of the game and im not saying A-net can pull it off. The game is not in a healthy state and they need to address this whether you like it or not they have stated the goal is to push raiding, new content will be basic raid training.

    This is 100% confirmed, they want to close the gap between casuals and non-casuals. There is nothing we can do to prevent this~

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    This is 100% confirmed, they want to close the gap between casuals and non-casuals. There is nothing we can do to prevent this~

    I think you are exagerating and reading way more into the announcement than was said.

    I have 0 doubt that the living world eposides will continue just as they have so far for 2 expansions and 3 seasons. Even if strikes are added as additional content, they will be side content, similar to difficult achievements. Maybe slightly beyond that.

    Most casual players have no idea what closing the gap means. That gap is so huge, you could fit 2 entire different game modes in there and still have room left. I'll repeat what I've said in the past: high end pve and open world pve are basically 2 different games using the same visuals.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:
    Sure, but I see no reason to give the vast majority of average skilled players an easy- or story mode variant of the current raid missions to allow them to experience this part of the game in their own difficulty level.

    Been saying that for years, I doubt it would be that big a task to knock the bosses difficulty down a bit and disable the loot so everyone would be able to experience the content either for story or training.

    As many people have said including myself, time and time again.. most raids are not really that hard once you know what you're doing.
    Experience in an easy mode variant of raiding is easily transferred to the default mode and that alone imo would give a lot more people incentive to try proper raiding.

    Hell that's the whole reason i'm looking forward to strike missions, they're pretty much going to be introduction level raids for people like me who struggle to find a raid group.

    Easy for Raiders to spout stuff like "this content isn't for you" etc but that kind of attitude is largely responsible for raids having such a minority playerbase in the first place.
    Who could blame Anet if they turned around one day and said yeah.. raids are a waste of our time, we're not making them anymore.
    Elitist raiders would only have themsevles to blame when that happens.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    This is 100% confirmed, they want to close the gap between casuals and non-casuals. There is nothing we can do to prevent this~

    I think you are exagerating and reading way more into the announcement than was said.

    I have 0 doubt that the living world eposides will continue just as they have so far for 2 expansions and 3 seasons. Even if strikes are added as additional content, they will be side content, similar to difficult achievements. Maybe slightly beyond that.

    Most casual players have no idea what closing the gap means. That gap is so huge, you could fit 2 entire different game modes in there and still have room left. I'll repeat what I've said in the past: high end pve and open world pve are basically 2 different games using the same visuals.

    Im not they said so in the new article which I linked above; Its confirmed their purpose is for raids. 100% confirmed they are pushing for the player-base as a collective whole to be on the same page and skill level. Im not exaggerating once so ever?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    This is 100% confirmed, they want to close the gap between casuals and non-casuals. There is nothing we can do to prevent this~

    I think you are exagerating and reading way more into the announcement than was said.

    I have 0 doubt that the living world eposides will continue just as they have so far for 2 expansions and 3 seasons. Even if strikes are added as additional content, they will be side content, similar to difficult achievements. Maybe slightly beyond that.

    Most casual players have no idea what closing the gap means. That gap is so huge, you could fit 2 entire different game modes in there and still have room left. I'll repeat what I've said in the past: high end pve and open world pve are basically 2 different games using the same visuals.

    Im not they said so in the new article which I linked above; Its confirmed their purpose is for raids. 100% confirmed they are pushing for the player-base as a collective whole to be on the same page and skill level. Im not exaggerating once so ever?

    Maybe re-read the article, stopp thinking in black and white and absolutes and realize that wanting to make access easier to content is not the same as forcing the entire playerbase into said content.

    The article mentioned in this thread also was in referance to strikes and raids, not in general about the entire game.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Mike Z's latest interview positions Raids as something they want the players to work towards and are using Strikes as a bridge.

    In the interview he says that

    We can show you the way that you can get better

    According to these forums, this so called vast majority of players doesn't want to get better, meaning they aren't a target audience of Strikes either. They don't want to use proper builds, they don't want to deal with team compositions. If Strikes don't force players to do both of those then they will be an epic failure of a "bridge" and won't teach players to be better. If they are world bosses inside an instance then they will fail at their objective.

    How does "getting better" mean?

  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    Mike Z's latest interview positions Raids as something they want the players to work towards and are using Strikes as a bridge.

    In the interview he says that

    We can show you the way that you can get better

    According to these forums, this so called vast majority of players doesn't want to get better, meaning they aren't a target audience of Strikes either. They don't want to use proper builds, they don't want to deal with team compositions. If Strikes don't force players to do both of those then they will be an epic failure of a "bridge" and won't teach players to be better. If they are world bosses inside an instance then they will fail at their objective.

    How does "getting better" mean?

    Better with your build , better with your own style and team composition.

    There is nothing better in going to a website and copying. A build

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @xenon.3264 said:
    Better with your build , better with your own style and team composition.

    So not getting better after all. Also, what team composition? If any build can finish the content then team composition is meaningless.

    There is nothing better in going to a website and copying. A build

    Getting better means doing things more efficiently, doing more dps, healing more, surviving more, providing more boons and so on. Those that post builds on websites have done the math and know the most efficient tactic available (meta). You don't have to copy anything from a website, if you can figure out the optimal play on your own. Outside the optimal rotations, which take a lot of time and effort to find, the rest of the most efficient builds can be acquired by a player without visiting a website.

    For example, using a condi based weapon, like Ranger Shortbow, while using Berserker gear, is something any intelligent player can figure out and change on their own without a website telling them. Anyone using troll stats like Nomad should also figure out how terrible they are on their own. Using projectile reflect skills when encounters have projectiles is also fairly obvious. The list goes on and on, it's not like the game has so much variety to overwhelm players.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Who could blame Anet if they turned around one day and said yeah.. raids are a waste of our time, we're not making them anymore.

    The same people who spent years watching Arenanet siphon ressources from the raid development teams and putting them to work on something else. The insinuation that only one side of the equation can be considered responsible for the status quo is preposterous.
    Also, if you have time, I encourage you to take a stroll through the maps of season 3 and 4 and see which ones are pretty much ghosttowns nowadays. The devs seem to have a soft spot for content that ends up as a waste of time in the long run.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You don't have to copy anything from a website, if you can figure out the optimal play on your own. Outside the optimal rotations, which take a lot of time > and effort to find, the rest of the most efficient builds can be acquired by a player without visiting a website.

    The problem there is that the META doesn't consider human error and natural slower reaction times. So, while a build might be the numerical top end if executed near-flawless, it can rapidly lose in effectiveness, depending on the human factors.
    Considering this, non-META build can potentially pump out better numbers for people who can't perfectly act within the limited margin a META-Build requires. That's why I think it's of most importance that people find a way they can play to the best of their own abilities, rather than break themselves trying to fit into the numerical "best" solution.

    That aside, I've yet to see a META build that I might have fun with.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    The problem there is that the META doesn't consider human error and natural slower reaction times. So, while a build might be the numerical top end if executed near-flawless, it can rapidly lose in effectiveness, depending on the human factors.
    Considering this, non-META build can potentially pump out better numbers for people who can't perfectly act within the limited margin a META-Build requires. That's why I think it's of most importance that people find a way they can play to the best of their own abilities, rather than break themselves trying to fit into the numerical "best" solution.

    That aside, I've yet to see a META build that I might have fun with.

    That's right but that's why there always are many builds tested and all of them especially prepared even easier ones. Only very high skilled (or commanders with stupid requirements. Yes, we all know they exist.) groups are looking for special dps roles. In most of the boss fights the search is made out to "DPS" or "Power DPS" and luckily nowadays there's a a broad spectrum of meta builds/classes that can handle that role for over 90% of all raid groups. I'm not into all classes at the moment but for a long time you could use a thief and achieve acceptable damage numbers just with pressing 1 and some other clicks (! - possible with mouse only). The actual power dragon hunter is easy as well and doesn't require that much of a training to achieve numbers that will ensure several minutes on the enrage timer left.

    Finally, let me say something to the fun. The fun part in raids isn't preferentially about having fun playing the class but coming together, make an effort as a team and be successful as a team. I'm not against solo play and GW2 is probably the MMO where you can play solo more than in other games of this genre but that's also the negative point: In team content your solo build doesn't shine any longer or at worse it is suboptimal. Unless you don't have a very experienced group 10 people with solo gear will struggle in the current raids because it's a team mode.

    My solution to that is having different builds. I'm using ArcDPS so it's easier for me but I play may warrior completely different in open world than in raids & fractals. Maybe not the weapons and armor because I want to be efficient there too but skills and sometimes traits are changed. Same applies for my ranger: druid it was for fracs & raids. Still power ranger or condi ranger for shenanigans in the open world. And even with very selfish skills and traits I'm having so much more percentage on the success in open world stuff than lots of other players with terrible gear, weapons and traits.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    I think the take away from today's Mike Z interview is pretty definitive. Tiered difficulty levels are something they are most definitely considering - albeit with a close eye on resources and achieving a balance between the hardcore and access to a story mode. His comments about the Bastion of the Penitent storyline are pretty straightforward.

    Do I expect to see this anytime soon? Of course not. But it is good to see that they are attempting to look at this issue from multiple perspectives - and that is the right thing to do. Raids as they are now are not sustainable in any way - they are too easy for "real" raiders and too hard for more casual story-oriented players. It's time to stop fighting against a split (tiered levels) and look for ways to make raids even harder while, on the other side, offering a way to simply experience the content (including the fights) for those who don't necessarily want to play the build/meta game.

    If that is the take away you are having from the answer, you are very very optimistic. I'm reading into that: we don't have the resources, we will try not to lock story behind raid content, past raid content will probably never see any change in difficulty.

    He is literally saying that they would rather create new content than revisit old content. Yes, future content, in this case strikes, might scale (think dragon bash), but raids will not.

    They're now speaking about pleasing both communities. Earlier they didn't acknowledge that there might be more than one group that might be interested in raids.

    Fact is, the current interview suggests they are no longer thinking about raids being just for a small number of players, but are pushing for them to become an endgame content most players should gravitate to. With that, adjustments are pretty much unavoidable, because no matter how many "bridges" they might build, the current raids will still remain beyond most players' ability to complete.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    the current raids will still remain beyond most players' ability to complete.

    But they need not. Some of the raid bosses really are very easy and doable for lower skilled players if they can adapt to easy mechanics (which most of the humans are able to) and if they gear properly (which means 6 x same stats for amor, equivalent stats on weapons + reasonable runes). You don't even need to have ascended gear nor do you need very much damage.
    I'm pretty sure that more people are able to raid than people willing to raid.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    The problem there is that the META doesn't consider human error and natural slower reaction times.

    The builds themselves don't care about human errors or reaction times, that's the rotation. There is a huge difference between a rotation and a build, a rotation is strict and depends on things like frame rate, ping, and player reaction times. I could care less about following some of the stricter rotations myself, as long as my own rotations are enough to get the job done. A build is a combination of optimal weapons, skills and traits, with enough variety based on the encounter to adapt to all situations. And besides, we have DPS meters now, those non-meta builds can prove they are superior to the meta builds using the meters.

    I've seen my fair share of Reapers outdpsing Weavers by a huge margin, even though according to the benchmarks it shouldn't be possible. That's because Power Reaper is simpler to play than Weaver. As long as you join a group with any build, but perform up to a certain standard your own personal build should be fine. The days of kicking people based on their build or profession are gone since DPS meters became popular. Now it's all about performance.

    Edit: the problem is, those custom/personal builds are usually so horrible with buffling choices in skills/traits/gear that make them underperform by a huge margin. That's because those players usually have a very big idea of themselves. Or are simply too lazy, stubborn and/or selfish, to adapt.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    the current raids will still remain beyond most players' ability to complete.

    But they need not. Some of the raid bosses really are very easy and doable for lower skilled players if they can adapt to easy mechanics (which most of the humans are able to) and if they gear properly (which means 6 x same stats for amor, equivalent stats on weapons + reasonable runes). You don't even need to have ascended gear nor do you need very much damage.
    I'm pretty sure that more people are able to raid than people willing to raid.

    My experience shows that even with the right build and gear, you will end up with players doing sub-10k damage. And that's for dps roles - try a lot of bosses with healers of that skill level (or tanks), and you will get wipes after wipes.
    Yes, there are players able to raid that are simply stopped by how hard it is to get in a steady group, but that won't change the fact, that merely giving proper builds and gear to players will have only a minimal impact on their effectiveness level. For some, it may even end up being a negative, because they've so used to running the builds they have now, that a change to a more squishy meta will make them even less effective than before.

    You might squeeze some of such players inside groups consisting mostly of veterans of course, but that method already works fine, so again, no change there.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    My experience shows that even with the right build and gear, you will end up with players doing sub-10k damage. And that's for dps roles - try a lot of bosses with healers of that skill level (or tanks), and you will get wipes after wipes.
    Yes, there are players able to raid that are simply stopped by how hard it is to get in a steady group, but that won't change the fact, that merely giving proper builds and gear to players will have only a minimal impact on their effectiveness level. For some, it may even end up being a negative, because they've so used to running the builds they have now, that a change to a more squishy meta will make them even less effective than before.

    You might squeeze some of such players inside groups consisting mostly of veterans of course, but that method already works fine, so again, no change there.

    Of course they would have a hard time at first but nowadays with healbrand which the new chrono etc. players won't easily die that fast. There are several encounters where you don't need 10k+ of dps. 1-3 experienced players are enough to teach others how to be successful in raiding. The training squads and their results have shown that people who are interested in that kind of content will be able to get into it.
    I keep my opinion that the overwhelming majority doesn't have any interest in instanced content at all. It was the same with dungeons. They weren't played at their peak because they made fun. It was the daily gold that let them stay and obviously most of them only in the very easy ones. My bet is that strike missions will fail horribly unless the gold/reward ratio is somewhat overtuned which I wouldn't assume to happen. One single boss or even an existing one with increasing mechanics every 3 months doesn't sound very impressive to me.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    It will be much healthier for the game in the long run

    Why don't you just play FF14 endgame or become a mystic raider in WoW if GW2 is too easy for you?

    So let me get this straight:
    Since I want some challenge and speak out about it on the forums I should just go play a different game?
    I thought this "so leave" thing was a meme spread by raiders. But here you are, spouting this toxicity to make me feel unwelcome because I disagree with you.

    Ruining the only content designed for casuals (the vast majority) just so a very small minority finds challenge everywhere isn't going to work out.

    Please show me one video game that does not get harder the further you progress.

    Casuals aren't magically turning into elitist level players. They are going to find new games.
    I don't think kicking out the majority of the player base is healthy for any game.

    But apparently you can show me the door whenever you like and that's good for the game huh?

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    According to these forums, this so called vast majority of players doesn't want to get better, meaning they aren't a target audience of Strikes either.

    According to these forums?
    According to these forums the game will die if Super Adventure Box isnt made a year round thing.
    According to these forums a data-mined string of text about leaving a demo instance is proof that the devs are working on Season 1.
    According to these forums everyone wants more underwater content.
    According to these forums closing exploits is "nerfing a farm".
    According to these forums Arenanet is nothing but a money-grubbing group of evil masterminds who exploit gambling addiction to make their living.
    According to these forums a picture that is clearly snow is actually sea foam and proof season5 takes place in Cantha.
    According to these forums raids are not PVE content.

    These forums are utterly disconnected from in-game reality. Might not be a good idea to base any argument on things that are said here.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    So let me get this straight:
    Since I want some challenge and speak out about it on the forums I should just go play a different game?
    I thought this "so leave" thing was a meme spread by raiders. But here you are, spouting this toxicity

    If you think recommendation about different games that feature the harder content you seemingly crave for hardly counts as toxic.
    If you interpreted it that way, the wrong way, that's not my fault.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I've seen my fair share of Reapers outdpsing Weavers by a huge margin, even though according to the benchmarks it shouldn't be possible.

    And I've seen Core Mesmers and Rangers killing veterans faster than Mirages.
    This is a result of players being better with certain builds than other players with certain builds.
    I don't think this can be related **entirely ** to the builds benchmark-potential or how easy a spec might be able to play.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    So let me get this straight:
    Since I want some challenge and speak out about it on the forums I should just go play a different game?
    I thought this "so leave" thing was a meme spread by raiders. But here you are, spouting this toxicity

    If you think recommendation about different games that feature the harder content you seemingly crave for hardly counts as toxic.
    If you interpreted it that way, the wrong way, that's not my fault.

    This backpeddal is comic gold.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019
    1. Meta builds are not the "Best" they are for the people who can't handle build craft, and are made to make raiding and endgame content accessible without the need of a guild or group of friends.
    2. A bump in difficulty will be a good thing in the long run, it means things will be challenging even if its only minor which will go a long way for retention. If they put worthwhile rewards on the story and cool stuff to earn, but require multiple play-through's then we will be in an even better spot.
    3. Telling people to leave for any reason is ludicrous and makes you part of the problem, this is a point where we can tell you "Grow up" and it fits.
    4. If you cant handle challenging content you're not a casual you are lazy, you don't want to work for anything and NO GAME should cater to you so that it can remain healthy. This is not me saying it needs so hard its almost dark souls level (Which admittedly isn't hard) so that the majority can still go about playing but it does need to be engaging.
    5. Raids won't become any more popular due to strikes, if you weren't raiding now then I highly doubt you will raid then. But it does offer another source of endgame content which is ALWAYS good. It also gives us the chance to get bosses we've seen before and aesthetically are cool but might not preform well today, which cuts down work on their part. (The eyes of Zaithan in the source of orr comes to mind, also so does balthazar and so on.)
  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    1. Meta builds are not the "Best" they are for the people who can't handle build craft, and are made to make raiding and endgame content accessible without the need of a guild or group of friends.
    2. A bump in difficulty will be a good thing in the long run, it means things will be challenging even if its only minor which will go a long way for retention. If they put worthwhile rewards on the story and cool stuff to earn, but require multiple play-through's then we will be in an even better spot.
    3. Telling people to leave for any reason is ludicrous and makes you part of the problem, this is a point where we can tell you "Grow up" and it fits.
    4. If you cant handle challenging content you're not a casual you are lazy, you don't want to work for anything and NO GAME should cater to you so that it can remain healthy. This is not me saying it needs so hard its almost dark souls level (Which admittedly isn't hard) so that the majority can still go about playing but it does need to be engaging.
    5. Raids won't become any more popular due to strikes, if you weren't raiding now then I highly doubt you will raid then. But it does offer another source of endgame content which is ALWAYS good. It also gives us the chance to get bosses we've seen before and aesthetically are cool but might not preform well today, which cuts down work on their part. (The eyes of Zaithan in the source of orr comes to mind, also so does balthazar and so on.)

    1. most effective tactic available pretty much means it should be the "best, most efficent" way. These builds are made by buildcrafters to create the optimal way of playing content. Most of the time DPS is the main factor, so most of the time the highest dps builds are the Meta builds.
    2. I agree with the worthwhile rewards for story. I also would want a general bump in difficulty, though I'm not sure it is a good thing in the long run. HoT scared away a lot of players initially, and they never came back.
    3. Agree, telling others to leave is never the right way.
    4. Disagree, there's a reason why games like Animal Crossing and similiar games exist. Calling someone lazy because he can't handle challenging content, instead of actually listening to his point of view is narrow minded. There are lots of reasons why someone might not do "challenging" content, or deem content "challenging": time, difficulty etc.
      Saying that no game should cater to a laid-back playstyle is the same as someone saying no game should cater to a hardcore playstyle.
    5. Agree

    I consider it lazy and I have little respect for people who don't want there to be a challenge in any form, as I stated I don't want it to be super hard but if you want extremely laid back press one button and kill everything than the rest of the game is there for you. This next chapter should offer more in terms of what it is, what it brings and what it means for the franchise. Challenging does not equate to super hard; Challenging could mean the mobs actually fight like a player would which require more thought when approaching them. Orr was a good example at launch you couldn't go ham and just rush through you constantly had to fight and constantly were under threat of being attacked, but it was nerfed because people claimed it was "too hard". Same with HoT the maps were not hard they were different, they offered new things and the bosses and mobs there were more dynamic than the regular world.

    All things must evolve to continue to grow, guild wars is no different. There is a difference between "Laid back" and completely brain dead, I mean WvW is laid back if you're doing it with friends and even pvp can be as well. It depends on who you surround yourself with and your mentality the modes themselves inherently regardless of what anyone does will never be super "hardcore" this game will never be that way. But making the content immersive, challenging and reward as well fun to do and Re-do is and should be top priority. The push back against such things comes from ignorance and people un-willing to accept that this is the direction they choose to take, it is also a direction I for once fully support. (There was little point in replaying content prior, because really unless you're trying to be an acheivo nut the rewards were lack luster at best.)

    I appreciate your insight and point of view however, We shouldn't be forced or expected to use or follow the meta. And If I was A-net Id nerf the hell out of it and rework everything to turn it on its head and bring everything to a viable level. I feel they need to return to the ~ Play how you want, when it comes to builds but require to at the very least understand the mechanics of the game and the fun that can be had there.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Who could blame Anet if they turned around one day and said yeah.. raids are a waste of our time, we're not making them anymore.

    The same people who spent years watching Arenanet siphon ressources from the raid development teams and putting them to work on something else. The insinuation that only one side of the equation can be considered responsible for the status quo is preposterous.
    Also, if you have time, I encourage you to take a stroll through the maps of season 3 and 4 and see which ones are pretty much ghosttowns nowadays. The devs seem to have a soft spot for content that ends up as a waste of time in the long run.

    The problem with the living world maps is the way the living world content works, is added and how available it is to the majority.

    To put it simply, once a new living world episode is released.. Anet can no longer make any relevant new content in the old map because they can't guarantee that everyone who plays the new map will have the previous episode unlocked, the only content they can guarantee is unlocked is the expansion content that is required to access the current living world episode.

    This is something I have complained about for years because as much as I enjoy living world, I hate that so many great locations in this game are completely wasted on essentially one time living world releases.
    I'd love to go back to Thunderhead keep or the Moon Fortress and get new content there, that that's very likely never going to happen because of how the living world is released.
    Anet could even re-release those episodes to remedy this problem too as they have done before but their desire to keep pushing on to new content rather than fixing old content is only adding to these ghost town maps as you put it.

    It's sad really, as someone who really cares about the world of Tyria It disappoints me that old content often gets pushed aside, although I am hoping that this suggestion about expanding old maps in season 5 will end up being significant rather than just.. hey theres a new PoI or vista in this tiny bit of new map.

  • @Raknar.4735 said:

    1. most effective tactic available pretty much means it should be the "best, most efficent" way.

    Of course, but that's not what "Meta" means. The fact that some people tried to change it into an acronym and explain that acronym doesn't mean it's the definition of the word. Because it isn't.

    These builds are made by buildcrafters to create the optimal way of playing content. Most of the time DPS is the main factor, so most of the time the highest dps builds are the Meta builds.

    Yes, but that's not the only consideration, nor is it the only way a build can make it into meta. Ease of play is also always a major consideration. SB x3 was specifically not the optimal condi soulbeast build. It made it into the meta because it was so easy that a large number of players adapted it over the proposed, "proper" build. Same with minstrel chrono - it was hardly optimal, it specifically shined in the unoptimal setups (there was a reason why it was called the "noob carrier")

    Notice also, that the current meaning of "meta" is different than the original one. Originally, it referred to the "meta-game game", the "buildcraft" associated with the game itself. Thus, "meta" was the builds created by those engaged in that buildcraft activity. Nowadays however it is just a shorthand for "builds commonly acknowledged by the community as useable for some reason or another", nothing more, nothing less.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2019

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    1. Meta builds are not the "Best" they are for the people who can't handle build craft, and are made to make raiding and endgame content accessible without the need of a guild or group of friends.
    2. A bump in difficulty will be a good thing in the long run, it means things will be challenging even if its only minor which will go a long way for retention. If they put worthwhile rewards on the story and cool stuff to earn, but require multiple play-through's then we will be in an even better spot.
    3. Telling people to leave for any reason is ludicrous and makes you part of the problem, this is a point where we can tell you "Grow up" and it fits.
    4. If you cant handle challenging content you're not a casual you are lazy, you don't want to work for anything and NO GAME should cater to you so that it can remain healthy. This is not me saying it needs so hard its almost dark souls level (Which admittedly isn't hard) so that the majority can still go about playing but it does need to be engaging.
    5. Raids won't become any more popular due to strikes, if you weren't raiding now then I highly doubt you will raid then. But it does offer another source of endgame content which is ALWAYS good. It also gives us the chance to get bosses we've seen before and aesthetically are cool but might not preform well today, which cuts down work on their part. (The eyes of Zaithan in the source of orr comes to mind, also so does balthazar and so on.)

    1. most effective tactic available pretty much means it should be the "best, most efficent" way. These builds are made by buildcrafters to create the optimal way of playing content. Most of the time DPS is the main factor, so most of the time the highest dps builds are the Meta builds.
    2. I agree with the worthwhile rewards for story. I also would want a general bump in difficulty, though I'm not sure it is a good thing in the long run. HoT scared away a lot of players initially, and they never came back.
    3. Agree, telling others to leave is never the right way.
    4. Disagree, there's a reason why games like Animal Crossing and similiar games exist. Calling someone lazy because he can't handle challenging content, instead of actually listening to his point of view is narrow minded. There are lots of reasons why someone might not do "challenging" content, or deem content "challenging": time, difficulty etc.
      Saying that no game should cater to a laid-back playstyle is the same as someone saying no game should cater to a hardcore playstyle.
    5. Agree

    I consider it lazy and I have little respect for people who don't want there to be a challenge in any form, as I stated I don't want it to be super hard but if you want extremely laid back press one button and kill everything than the rest of the game is there for you. This next chapter should offer more in terms of what it is, what it brings and what it means for the franchise. Challenging does not equate to super hard; Challenging could mean the mobs actually fight like a player would which require more thought when approaching them. Orr was a good example at launch you couldn't go ham and just rush through you constantly had to fight and constantly were under threat of being attacked, but it was nerfed because people claimed it was "too hard". Same with HoT the maps were not hard they were different, they offered new things and the bosses and mobs there were more dynamic than the regular world.

    All things must evolve to continue to grow, guild wars is no different. There is a difference between "Laid back" and completely brain dead, I mean WvW is laid back if you're doing it with friends and even pvp can be as well. It depends on who you surround yourself with and your mentality the modes themselves inherently regardless of what anyone does will never be super "hardcore" this game will never be that way. But making the content immersive, challenging and reward as well fun to do and Re-do is and should be top priority. The push back against such things comes from ignorance and people un-willing to accept that this is the direction they choose to take, it is also a direction I for once fully support. (There was little point in replaying content prior, because really unless you're trying to be an acheivo nut the rewards were lack luster at best.)

    I appreciate your insight and point of view however, We shouldn't be forced or expected to use or follow the meta. And If I was A-net Id nerf the hell out of it and rework everything to turn it on its head and bring everything to a viable level. I feel they need to return to the ~ Play how you want, when it comes to builds but require to at the very least understand the mechanics of the game and the fun that can be had there.

    Man, i'd really like a Dark Souls-esque MMORPG where enemies fought like players, or atleast on the level of some of the NPC-Invaders. (Not sure how that'd work, playing Co-op makes the DS series so much easier)
    I can't agree with your perspective on which players to respect, but everyone should have their own perspective on that and i'm not here to change that.

    I think one of the main problems GW2 has that hinders an increase in difficulty is the gear system, more precisely the way current stats work. Anet themselves say that there's a 10x dps discrepancy from low to high-skilled players, so they have to create story missions the way they are, easily beatable with low dps. (I think they already stated they want to change that in some way during the new saga in some interview)

    How does such a huge disparity happen? My guess is people just don't know what their gear does when they equip it. While in other MMOs like WoW (not speaking of Vanilla/Classic, since stats were weird back then) there's pretty much only one way to gear a specific spec, gear is mostly subdivided into Tank/Dps/Heal. Someone playing a Warrior will mostly only get offered gear that is for Tanks or Damage Dealers, so it's easy to know what's best for them. And then it just goes higher stats = better piece.

    In GW2 however there are so many different stat-types on gearpieces that it can be complicated for the average player that doesn't look up builds. They see "vitality" and think: "sure, why not", while ignoring if that stat is truly useful for them, so they end up with gear i wouldn't even call suboptimal, just plain bad.
    Many sets that should be "side-grades" are actually just traps, and content gets harder for them, since they don't have the adequate damage output. So Anet is "forced" to create easy content. (There's a huge difference between someone in WoW not using a meta build and someone in GW2 not using one, the whole "Play how you want" is easier in WoW than in GW2)

    Well, that's my opinion on the disparity and why Anet has a problem creating harder content.

    I also want to thank you for elaborating, i now have a better understanding of your point of view and I agree that GW2 should have a harder open world, but i do think the "complexity" of the gearsystem in GW2 is holding back both Anet and a big part of the playerbase. So to be able to make the content harder players need to understand how stats affect their performance. (I really don't think there are a lot of players that just run around and press 1 while not in a zerg. At least i don't want to believe that)

    I didn't want to create 2 posts so I'll answer you here.
    You are right that the term is constantly changing, and everyone uses the word with the definition he wants. There are so many different definitions of that word that no one can really say what it means. Its' meaning even changes depending on genre. Depending on who you ask Meta may be the "most effective tactic available".

    I can just share my own opinion on what that word refers to and how i use it (I want to make clear this most likely isn't the correct way of using it):
    Meta builds for me are the most optimal builds that were created after crunching the numbers. Depending on the activity you're doing a class can have many Meta builds: one for Open World, one for Raids, one for Fractals. IMO there's no PvP-Meta build, since depending on your enemies, everything changes, counterbuilds are part of the gamemode and there normally never really is an "optimal" build, since enemies and their builds change constantly.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • the thing to take away from Mike's interview:
    the difference between average dps and hardcore dps is 10x.

    Let that sit for a while. And that is AVERAGE not LOW END.

    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

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