If current raids are too difficult for you, you are not the target demographic of raiding content - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

If current raids are too difficult for you, you are not the target demographic of raiding content

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  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    the thing to take away from Mike's interview:
    the difference between average dps and hardcore dps is 10x.

    Let that sit for a while. And that is AVERAGE not LOW END.

    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    I reread the part from Mike's interview and you are indeed correct about the "average", not "low end" part.

    But you also have to consider that not everyone doing raids does "harcore dps", above average DPS is enough to clear raids.
    I don't think demonizing the raid-community based on some vocal outliers is the correct way to go about things. The same thing goes for the opposite side, the casual/mostly-openworld community.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    1. Meta builds are not the "Best" they are for the people who can't handle build craft, and are made to make raiding and endgame content accessible without the need of a guild or group of friends.
    2. A bump in difficulty will be a good thing in the long run, it means things will be challenging even if its only minor which will go a long way for retention. If they put worthwhile rewards on the story and cool stuff to earn, but require multiple play-through's then we will be in an even better spot.
    3. Telling people to leave for any reason is ludicrous and makes you part of the problem, this is a point where we can tell you "Grow up" and it fits.
    4. If you cant handle challenging content you're not a casual you are lazy, you don't want to work for anything and NO GAME should cater to you so that it can remain healthy. This is not me saying it needs so hard its almost dark souls level (Which admittedly isn't hard) so that the majority can still go about playing but it does need to be engaging.
    5. Raids won't become any more popular due to strikes, if you weren't raiding now then I highly doubt you will raid then. But it does offer another source of endgame content which is ALWAYS good. It also gives us the chance to get bosses we've seen before and aesthetically are cool but might not preform well today, which cuts down work on their part. (The eyes of Zaithan in the source of orr comes to mind, also so does balthazar and so on.)

    1. most effective tactic available pretty much means it should be the "best, most efficent" way. These builds are made by buildcrafters to create the optimal way of playing content. Most of the time DPS is the main factor, so most of the time the highest dps builds are the Meta builds.
    2. I agree with the worthwhile rewards for story. I also would want a general bump in difficulty, though I'm not sure it is a good thing in the long run. HoT scared away a lot of players initially, and they never came back.
    3. Agree, telling others to leave is never the right way.
    4. Disagree, there's a reason why games like Animal Crossing and similiar games exist. Calling someone lazy because he can't handle challenging content, instead of actually listening to his point of view is narrow minded. There are lots of reasons why someone might not do "challenging" content, or deem content "challenging": time, difficulty etc.
      Saying that no game should cater to a laid-back playstyle is the same as someone saying no game should cater to a hardcore playstyle.
    5. Agree

    I consider it lazy and I have little respect for people who don't want there to be a challenge in any form, as I stated I don't want it to be super hard but if you want extremely laid back press one button and kill everything than the rest of the game is there for you. This next chapter should offer more in terms of what it is, what it brings and what it means for the franchise. Challenging does not equate to super hard; Challenging could mean the mobs actually fight like a player would which require more thought when approaching them. Orr was a good example at launch you couldn't go ham and just rush through you constantly had to fight and constantly were under threat of being attacked, but it was nerfed because people claimed it was "too hard". Same with HoT the maps were not hard they were different, they offered new things and the bosses and mobs there were more dynamic than the regular world.

    All things must evolve to continue to grow, guild wars is no different. There is a difference between "Laid back" and completely brain dead, I mean WvW is laid back if you're doing it with friends and even pvp can be as well. It depends on who you surround yourself with and your mentality the modes themselves inherently regardless of what anyone does will never be super "hardcore" this game will never be that way. But making the content immersive, challenging and reward as well fun to do and Re-do is and should be top priority. The push back against such things comes from ignorance and people un-willing to accept that this is the direction they choose to take, it is also a direction I for once fully support. (There was little point in replaying content prior, because really unless you're trying to be an acheivo nut the rewards were lack luster at best.)

    I appreciate your insight and point of view however, We shouldn't be forced or expected to use or follow the meta. And If I was A-net Id nerf the hell out of it and rework everything to turn it on its head and bring everything to a viable level. I feel they need to return to the ~ Play how you want, when it comes to builds but require to at the very least understand the mechanics of the game and the fun that can be had there.

    Man, i'd really like a Dark Souls-esque MMORPG where enemies fought like players, or atleast on the level of some of the NPC-Invaders. (Not sure how that'd work, playing Co-op makes the DS series so much easier)
    I can't agree with your perspective on which players to respect, but everyone should have their own perspective on that and i'm not here to change that.

    I think one of the main problems GW2 has that hinders an increase in difficulty is the gear system, more precisely the way current stats work. Anet themselves say that there's a 10x dps discrepancy from low to high-skilled players, so they have to create story missions the way they are, easily beatable with low dps. (I think they already stated they want to change that in some way during the new saga in some interview)

    How does such a huge disparity happen? My guess is people just don't know what their gear does when they equip it. While in other MMOs like WoW (not speaking of Vanilla/Classic, since stats were weird back then) there's pretty much only one way to gear a specific spec, gear is mostly subdivided into Tank/Dps/Heal. Someone playing a Warrior will mostly only get offered gear that is for Tanks or Damage Dealers, so it's easy to know what's best for them. And then it just goes higher stats = better piece.

    In GW2 however there are so many different stat-types on gearpieces that it can be complicated for the average player that doesn't look up builds. They see "vitality" and think: "sure, why not", while ignoring if that stat is truly useful for them, so they end up with gear i wouldn't even call suboptimal, just plain bad.
    Many sets that should be "side-grades" are actually just traps, and content gets harder for them, since they don't have the adequate damage output. So Anet is "forced" to create easy content. (There's a huge difference between someone in WoW not using a meta build and someone in GW2 not using one, the whole "Play how you want" is easier in WoW than in GW2)

    Well, that's my opinion on the disparity and why Anet has a problem creating harder content.

    I also want to thank you for elaborating, i now have a better understanding of your point of view and I agree that GW2 should have a harder open world, but i do think the "complexity" of the gearsystem in GW2 is holding back both Anet and a big part of the playerbase. So to be able to make the content harder players need to understand how stats affect their performance. (I really don't think there are a lot of players that just run around and press 1 while not in a zerg. At least i don't want to believe that)

    I didn't want to create 2 posts so I'll answer you here.
    You are right that the term is constantly changing, and everyone uses the word with the definition he wants. There are so many different definitions of that word that no one can really say what it means. Its' meaning even changes depending on genre. Depending on who you ask Meta may be the "most effective tactic available".

    I can just share my own opinion on what that word refers to and how i use it (I want to make clear this most likely isn't the correct way of using it):
    Meta builds for me are the most optimal builds that were created after crunching the numbers. Depending on the activity you're doing a class can have many Meta builds: one for Open World, one for Raids, one for Fractals. IMO there's no PvP-Meta build, since depending on your enemies, everything changes, counterbuilds are part of the gamemode and there normally never really is an "optimal" build, since enemies and their builds change constantly.

    Honestly why not just remove the horrible gear stat options, ones they know full well can't be used. They could remake them with all the bells and whistles; Or they need to just push everyone into dps and only dps. I think the biggest mistake they ever made was move away from the trinity which holds this game back so hard, because definitive roles with the builds within the class specifically don't truly exist. (You wana tank? Stack toughness, but only a few classes can be optimal tanks for example.) Tanking in this game is a joke, healing is AOE spam fest with tons of damage on it for front-loaded burst. It makes me wonder if A-net even knows what they are doing sometimes, because the trinity is not bad in the slightest. People just don't want to be expected to play their role the way they should and if each class had a tank spec, a heal spec, a dps spec, and a spec that can fill any of the above but not as optimally as a pure specialized spec I think we would be fine.

    But they keep trying to re-invent the wheel and its just not working, clearly. A soft trinity may be the way to go ~ Now that you got me thinking about it, I feel your not only right on the gear system/stat system but the core of the game has this issue. Core classes and all have the issue of they aren't in a kind of "This role is primarily the one you will exceed at" they are all dps with some nuance to them. The disparity comes from people wanting to play X class in a way that is unintended, because they prefer that playstyle. I feel like A-net should capitalize on that and make it work... so we can all win lol

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    1. Meta builds are not the "Best" they are for the people who can't handle build craft, and are made to make raiding and endgame content accessible without the need of a guild or group of friends.
    2. A bump in difficulty will be a good thing in the long run, it means things will be challenging even if its only minor which will go a long way for retention. If they put worthwhile rewards on the story and cool stuff to earn, but require multiple play-through's then we will be in an even better spot.
    3. Telling people to leave for any reason is ludicrous and makes you part of the problem, this is a point where we can tell you "Grow up" and it fits.
    4. If you cant handle challenging content you're not a casual you are lazy, you don't want to work for anything and NO GAME should cater to you so that it can remain healthy. This is not me saying it needs so hard its almost dark souls level (Which admittedly isn't hard) so that the majority can still go about playing but it does need to be engaging.
    5. Raids won't become any more popular due to strikes, if you weren't raiding now then I highly doubt you will raid then. But it does offer another source of endgame content which is ALWAYS good. It also gives us the chance to get bosses we've seen before and aesthetically are cool but might not preform well today, which cuts down work on their part. (The eyes of Zaithan in the source of orr comes to mind, also so does balthazar and so on.)

    1. most effective tactic available pretty much means it should be the "best, most efficent" way. These builds are made by buildcrafters to create the optimal way of playing content. Most of the time DPS is the main factor, so most of the time the highest dps builds are the Meta builds.
    2. I agree with the worthwhile rewards for story. I also would want a general bump in difficulty, though I'm not sure it is a good thing in the long run. HoT scared away a lot of players initially, and they never came back.
    3. Agree, telling others to leave is never the right way.
    4. Disagree, there's a reason why games like Animal Crossing and similiar games exist. Calling someone lazy because he can't handle challenging content, instead of actually listening to his point of view is narrow minded. There are lots of reasons why someone might not do "challenging" content, or deem content "challenging": time, difficulty etc.
      Saying that no game should cater to a laid-back playstyle is the same as someone saying no game should cater to a hardcore playstyle.
    5. Agree

    I consider it lazy and I have little respect for people who don't want there to be a challenge in any form, as I stated I don't want it to be super hard but if you want extremely laid back press one button and kill everything than the rest of the game is there for you. This next chapter should offer more in terms of what it is, what it brings and what it means for the franchise. Challenging does not equate to super hard; Challenging could mean the mobs actually fight like a player would which require more thought when approaching them. Orr was a good example at launch you couldn't go ham and just rush through you constantly had to fight and constantly were under threat of being attacked, but it was nerfed because people claimed it was "too hard". Same with HoT the maps were not hard they were different, they offered new things and the bosses and mobs there were more dynamic than the regular world.

    All things must evolve to continue to grow, guild wars is no different. There is a difference between "Laid back" and completely brain dead, I mean WvW is laid back if you're doing it with friends and even pvp can be as well. It depends on who you surround yourself with and your mentality the modes themselves inherently regardless of what anyone does will never be super "hardcore" this game will never be that way. But making the content immersive, challenging and reward as well fun to do and Re-do is and should be top priority. The push back against such things comes from ignorance and people un-willing to accept that this is the direction they choose to take, it is also a direction I for once fully support. (There was little point in replaying content prior, because really unless you're trying to be an acheivo nut the rewards were lack luster at best.)

    I appreciate your insight and point of view however, We shouldn't be forced or expected to use or follow the meta. And If I was A-net Id nerf the hell out of it and rework everything to turn it on its head and bring everything to a viable level. I feel they need to return to the ~ Play how you want, when it comes to builds but require to at the very least understand the mechanics of the game and the fun that can be had there.

    Man, i'd really like a Dark Souls-esque MMORPG where enemies fought like players, or atleast on the level of some of the NPC-Invaders. (Not sure how that'd work, playing Co-op makes the DS series so much easier)
    I can't agree with your perspective on which players to respect, but everyone should have their own perspective on that and i'm not here to change that.

    I think one of the main problems GW2 has that hinders an increase in difficulty is the gear system, more precisely the way current stats work. Anet themselves say that there's a 10x dps discrepancy from low to high-skilled players, so they have to create story missions the way they are, easily beatable with low dps. (I think they already stated they want to change that in some way during the new saga in some interview)

    How does such a huge disparity happen? My guess is people just don't know what their gear does when they equip it. While in other MMOs like WoW (not speaking of Vanilla/Classic, since stats were weird back then) there's pretty much only one way to gear a specific spec, gear is mostly subdivided into Tank/Dps/Heal. Someone playing a Warrior will mostly only get offered gear that is for Tanks or Damage Dealers, so it's easy to know what's best for them. And then it just goes higher stats = better piece.

    In GW2 however there are so many different stat-types on gearpieces that it can be complicated for the average player that doesn't look up builds. They see "vitality" and think: "sure, why not", while ignoring if that stat is truly useful for them, so they end up with gear i wouldn't even call suboptimal, just plain bad.
    Many sets that should be "side-grades" are actually just traps, and content gets harder for them, since they don't have the adequate damage output. So Anet is "forced" to create easy content. (There's a huge difference between someone in WoW not using a meta build and someone in GW2 not using one, the whole "Play how you want" is easier in WoW than in GW2)

    Well, that's my opinion on the disparity and why Anet has a problem creating harder content.

    I also want to thank you for elaborating, i now have a better understanding of your point of view and I agree that GW2 should have a harder open world, but i do think the "complexity" of the gearsystem in GW2 is holding back both Anet and a big part of the playerbase. So to be able to make the content harder players need to understand how stats affect their performance. (I really don't think there are a lot of players that just run around and press 1 while not in a zerg. At least i don't want to believe that)

    I didn't want to create 2 posts so I'll answer you here.
    You are right that the term is constantly changing, and everyone uses the word with the definition he wants. There are so many different definitions of that word that no one can really say what it means. Its' meaning even changes depending on genre. Depending on who you ask Meta may be the "most effective tactic available".

    I can just share my own opinion on what that word refers to and how i use it (I want to make clear this most likely isn't the correct way of using it):
    Meta builds for me are the most optimal builds that were created after crunching the numbers. Depending on the activity you're doing a class can have many Meta builds: one for Open World, one for Raids, one for Fractals. IMO there's no PvP-Meta build, since depending on your enemies, everything changes, counterbuilds are part of the gamemode and there normally never really is an "optimal" build, since enemies and their builds change constantly.

    Honestly why not just remove the horrible gear stat options, ones they know full well can't be used. They could remake them with all the bells and whistles; Or they need to just push everyone into dps and only dps. I think the biggest mistake they ever made was move away from the trinity which holds this game back so hard, because definitive roles with the builds within the class specifically don't truly exist. (You wana tank? Stack toughness, but only a few classes can be optimal tanks for example.) Tanking in this game is a joke, healing is AOE spam fest with tons of damage on it for front-loaded burst. It makes me wonder if A-net even knows what they are doing sometimes, because the trinity is not bad in the slightest. People just don't want to be expected to play their role the way they should and if each class had a tank spec, a heal spec, a dps spec, and a spec that can fill any of the above but not as optimally as a pure specialized spec I think we would be fine.

    But they keep trying to re-invent the wheel and its just not working, clearly. A soft trinity may be the way to go ~ Now that you got me thinking about it, I feel your not only right on the gear system/stat system but the core of the game has this issue. Core classes and all have the issue of they aren't in a kind of "This role is primarily the one you will exceed at" they are all dps with some nuance to them. The disparity comes from people wanting to play X class in a way that is unintended, because they prefer that playstyle. I feel like A-net should capitalize on that and make it work... so we can all win lol

    Yeah, i honestly think revamping / removing some parts of the gear system would increase the average "skill" floor level (as in people would be able to clear current story instances / open world easier, so they could make newer content harder in relation to the new skill floor, since players are better prepared for it, closing the gap between low skill and high skill a bit). This would also allow a higher skill ceiling in terms of content difficulty, which many skilled players want. (Not only talking about raids, but also more things like Liadri pre HoT)

    I don't really have an opinion on the trinity system, sometimes i miss it, sometimes i don't, so i don't think i can share a good solution.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    You really think anything was stolen?
    Man, you're a veteran player and according to your post history at least able to raid and get all the rewards "hidden" in there. If you don't want to put effort into that that's perfectly fine but you should also accept that there is a target group of players that wants to have challenging content like there is for PvP and WvW. Those players hate to only press 1 to get grindy loot in the open world. Just accept that we don't like that type of game play and we're also eligible to play this game and get some content.
    The majority of this game is getting constant updates every 3 months + has HoT and PoF open world in two expansions which is also completetly directed to the easy content group.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players.

    Such entitlement.
    Much wow.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    You really think anything was stolen?
    Man, you're a veteran player and according to your post history at least able to raid and get all the rewards "hidden" in there. If you don't want to put effort into that that's perfectly fine but you should also accept that there is a target group of players that wants to have challenging content like there is for PvP and WvW. Those players hate to only press 1 to get grindy loot in the open world. Just accept that we don't like that type of game play and we're also eligible to play this game and get some content.
    The majority of this game is getting constant updates every 3 months + has HoT and PoF open world in two expansions which is also completetly directed to the easy content group.

    I mean id still like to have an open world legendary armor set, so thats kinda stolen for me(ill never get it now, my raid guild died off due to raids being "to easy"). I just dont have the time to sit down and wait for a raid group to form on me(hint, pugs in raids suck.) . Ive -done- raids, plenty of them, most without wipes, and i still havent been able to get enough stuff to finish my armor because no training group wants to run the harder bosses that i need.

    I wont be surprised if they make raids easier, even if slightly. Would i rather have a easy(half the rewards) normal(Self explanatory) and hard mode(Double rewards, doubley hard), yes, but i doubt theyd do that, it would appease everyone. The easy mode players would still get the loot just it would take longer, or take more runs of the raids. But hey, im just a "casual" so i dont count i suppose.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:
    I mean id still like to have an open world legendary armor set, so thats kinda stolen for me(ill never get it now, my raid guild died off due to raids being "to easy"). I just dont have the time to sit down and wait for a raid group to form on me(hint, pugs in raids suck.) . Ive -done- raids, plenty of them, most without wipes, and i still havent been able to get enough stuff to finish my armor because no training group wants to run the harder bosses that i need.

    I wont be surprised if they make raids easier, even if slightly. Would i rather have a easy(half the rewards) normal(Self explanatory) and hard mode(Double rewards, doubley hard), yes, but i doubt theyd do that, it would appease everyone. The easy mode players would still get the loot just it would take longer, or take more runs of the raids. But hey, im just a "casual" so i dont count i suppose.

    You're not a casual any more when you've raided more than just having a first look. Additionally you got bosses down, so no, you aren't what many and I call a "casual".
    If you need kills of the "harder" bosses which is Xera only in my opinion due to "flying is endgame" you shouldn't have any problems in getting those over time. The thing here is you aren't a trainee any longer and several groups from the lfg should take them with you in their wing clears. I don't mean full clears here but single wing clears. Even a lot of full clear groups are just looking for 250 LI KPs in those wings and that's what you can easily get once you are familiar with lots of bosses. Just try and ask, take the risk of a "No!" as answer and maybe some bootings here and there. If you keep on trying you'll succeed and there are enough guilds/group that'll help you through Matthias, Deimos (where you can afk-range) and Xera once you have proven to be a useful squad member during the boss fights before.

    Final remark: Once you got the armor don't be disappointed but it's pretty ugly and you won't use the stat swapping very often or effectively, trust me. And that's why I call it wasn't stolen from real casual players. Those don't use the the function at all. The decision to have the armor raid only wasn't the best but not a big deal some people want to make us believe.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • what if raids and strikes, etc. Had the test golems outside. And a newly formed group would attack it and the game could use the data to calculate how strong the group is and adjust the difficulty and rewards to match? It could also then determine individual effectiveness and personalize rewards accordingly.
    Basically difficulty scaling on a personal level. If you are weak, you get less rewards. Simple.

  • @Raknar.4735 said:
    Man, i'd really like a Dark Souls-esque MMORPG where enemies fought like players, or atleast on the level of some of the NPC-Invaders. (Not sure how that'd work, playing Co-op makes the DS series so much easier)

    There's a reason why we don't hear much about those kinds of MMOs - they don't sell. Not at a level where they might end up being big enough to get noticed anyway.

    I can't agree with your perspective on which players to respect, but everyone should have their own perspective on that and i'm not here to change that.

    I think one of the main problems GW2 has that hinders an increase in difficulty is the gear system, more precisely the way current stats work. Anet themselves say that there's a 10x dps discrepancy from low to high-skilled players, so they have to create story missions the way they are, easily beatable with low dps. (I think they already stated they want to change that in some way during the new saga in some interview)

    How does such a huge disparity happen? My guess is people just don't know what their gear does when they equip it. While in other MMOs like WoW (not speaking of Vanilla/Classic, since stats were weird back then) there's pretty much only one way to gear a specific spec, gear is mostly subdivided into Tank/Dps/Heal. Someone playing a Warrior will mostly only get offered gear that is for Tanks or Damage Dealers, so it's easy to know what's best for them. And then it just goes higher stats = better piece.

    In GW2 however there are so many different stat-types on gearpieces that it can be complicated for the average player that doesn't look up builds. They see "vitality" and think: "sure, why not", while ignoring if that stat is truly useful for them, so they end up with gear i wouldn't even call suboptimal, just plain bad.
    Many sets that should be "side-grades" are actually just traps, and content gets harder for them, since they don't have the adequate damage output. So Anet is "forced" to create easy content. (There's a huge difference between someone in WoW not using a meta build and someone in GW2 not using one, the whole "Play how you want" is easier in WoW than in GW2)

    Well, that's my opinion on the disparity and why Anet has a problem creating harder content.

    It doesn't have much to do with gear, actually. That's only a minor part of that disparity. You can still have an average player in full meta gear/build doing 5x times less damage than a hardcore player in hybrid build. That's because, while some builds do have simple rotations and you can get a lot out of them simply pressing keys at random, most builds just don't work like that. Remember the old condi core engineer build? If you gave that build to an average player that didn't have any idea how to play it, the end result would have been absolutely horrible. Same with eles - let that hypothetical "average player" use it, and you might see dps around 6-8k. And that's only when that player is in a group with support players that do know what they are doing.

    Yes, something that would ensure (or at least greatly increase chances of) players picking the "right" gear and builds (whatever that mean) might help a bit, but the disparity would remain, and it would still be huge.

    I also want to thank you for elaborating, i now have a better understanding of your point of view and I agree that GW2 should have a harder open world, but i do think the "complexity" of the gearsystem in GW2 is holding back both Anet and a big part of the playerbase.

    Again, it's not the complexity of the gearsystem. It's that the player efficiency is way more dependant on player skill than in other mmos. Other games put a lot more weight on gear, which means that simply gearing up can be a massive help for an average player. In gw2 it won't work, as gear is only a small fraction of your effectiveness.

    So to be able to make the content harder players need to understand how stats affect their performance. (I really don't think there are a lot of players that just run around and press 1 while not in a zerg. At least i don't want to believe that)

    It's not "pressing 1". That's a meme. Most players do use all their skills. It's just they aren't aware that using them in a specific order may result in a massive improvement in dps. I am also certain that most players are not even aware that by just pressing all skills off cooldown they constantly keep interrupting their autoattack chain.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not exactly a shocking revelation OP.

    The dev who made them said as much back then.

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    the thing to take away from Mike's interview:
    the difference between average dps and hardcore dps is 10x.

    Let that sit for a while. And that is AVERAGE not LOW END.

    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    It's a bit more complicated than that. It really comes down to the setting, goals, and connectivity of the players.

    I know I rep these numbers a lot, but awhile ago I did some auto attack tests coupled with a few simple rotations. This was all done assuming raid builds, raid buffs, and raid food. The results I came to are pretty simple: for most weapons the baseline DPS for any class is half what the peak was for melee DPS, about a third for ranged and condi weapons, and much lower for several meme builds (staff necro being the worst). Considering that this is what is done from either auto attacking or spamming 2 or 3 skills, these numbers are the minimum you can expect from any player who is geared, somewhat informed, and not dead from failed mechanics. Adjust for each encounter's DPS uptime.

    What Mike is talking about are players who are not geared, informed, or motivated. I.E. the player who spams every skill on their bar randomly while wearing whatever random gear they happened to loot using a build of nonsensical or random traits, and all of this while traveling alone with no outside buffs. When we're dealing with this degree of... lack of skill, there's only so much that can be done to reasonably accommodate that player. Aside from utter randos who have no idea what they're doing and/or do not care, it isn't unreasonable to expect that a player who wants to raid is going to show up in full berserker gear with mostly DPS boosting traits.

    However, it has been one of my biggest criticisms toward this game that it's build system and game mechanics encourages players to be terrible at it. Getting good at the game involves abandoning all of the conventions and tools given to you. Roughly akin to that one video The Spiffing Brit did where he showed one of the best ways to play Prison Architect is to forgo the prison and just make a lumber yard. I don't know how to solve this problem, since it is ingrained in everything that defines GW2, but nonetheless it is the biggest issue facing challenging content design.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    I think the take away from today's Mike Z interview is pretty definitive. Tiered difficulty levels are something they are most definitely considering - albeit with a close eye on resources and achieving a balance between the hardcore and access to a story mode. His comments about the Bastion of the Penitent storyline are pretty straightforward.

    Do I expect to see this anytime soon? Of course not. But it is good to see that they are attempting to look at this issue from multiple perspectives - and that is the right thing to do. Raids as they are now are not sustainable in any way - they are too easy for "real" raiders and too hard for more casual story-oriented players. It's time to stop fighting against a split (tiered levels) and look for ways to make raids even harder while, on the other side, offering a way to simply experience the content (including the fights) for those who don't necessarily want to play the build/meta game.

    If that is the take away you are having from the answer, you are very very optimistic. I'm reading into that: we don't have the resources, we will try not to lock story behind raid content, past raid content will probably never see any change in difficulty.

    He is literally saying that they would rather create new content than revisit old content. Yes, future content, in this case strikes, might scale (think dragon bash), but raids will not.

    Except, when asked the direct question:

    "Is there room for a ‘story’ difficulty in raids and other high-end content?"

    his response is:

    "There is. "

    That is a pretty definitive statement. He even goes on to give an example of content that could be retrofit with an easy mode (Bastion of The Penitent). Now, he does explain the issues with this approach (resources), but he basically does the opposite of rule it out - he confirms they are considering it.

    The most important part is the last line, though:

    "We want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups."

    That pretty much invalidates the argument that raids are supposed to be reserved for a small percentage of the playerbase - that they are looking at how they can extend that content to people who aren't as skilled or don't have the time to dedicate to raiding (while, at the same time, he talks about how they might be able to make open world more appealing to raiders).

    I think this should get everyone excited. It shows they are committed to making raids work within the structure of the game - offering a truly difficult experience without excluding chunks of the game from more casual players. For raiders, this could mean more content - not less. If this content is made in a way that appeals to a larger audience (without compromising the high end experience), then there is real incentive to make MORE of it, leading to a raid release cadence that might actually keep raiders in the game.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am most likely not the target audience of Open World PvE and story content. What should I do? Quit the game and move on to other games which focus on the content I enjoy most: raids and Open World PvP? Should I complain and ask Open World PvE and story instances to be changed to be more to my liking because I am entitled to it? Or should I just play the content I like while being happy for those who do enjoy content I do not? I wonder....

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    the thing to take away from Mike's interview:
    the difference between average dps and hardcore dps is 10x.

    Let that sit for a while. And that is AVERAGE not LOW END.

    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    It's a bit more complicated than that. It really comes down to the setting, goals, and connectivity of the players.

    I know I rep these numbers a lot, but awhile ago I did some auto attack tests coupled with a few simple rotations. This was all done assuming raid builds, raid buffs, and raid food. The results I came to are pretty simple: for most weapons the baseline DPS for any class is half what the peak was for melee DPS, about a third for ranged and condi weapons, and much lower for several meme builds (staff necro being the worst). Considering that this is what is done from either auto attacking or spamming 2 or 3 skills, these numbers are the minimum you can expect from any player who is geared, somewhat informed, and not dead from failed mechanics. Adjust for each encounter's DPS uptime.

    What Mike is talking about are players who are not geared, informed, or motivated. I.E. the player who spams every skill on their bar randomly while wearing whatever random gear they happened to loot using a build of nonsensical or random traits, and all of this while traveling alone with no outside buffs. When we're dealing with this degree of... lack of skill, there's only so much that can be done to reasonably accommodate that player. Aside from utter randos who have no idea what they're doing and/or do not care, it isn't unreasonable to expect that a player who wants to raid is going to show up in full berserker gear with mostly DPS boosting traits.

    However, it has been one of my biggest criticisms toward this game that it's build system and game mechanics encourages players to be terrible at it. Getting good at the game involves abandoning all of the conventions and tools given to you. Roughly akin to that one video The Spiffing Brit did where he showed one of the best ways to play Prison Architect is to forgo the prison and just make a lumber yard. I don't know how to solve this problem, since it is ingrained in everything that defines GW2, but nonetheless it is the biggest issue facing challenging content design.

    So these topics always get heated up to the point of uselessness but I'd like to point whoever is new/kinda new to raids to this one post since it goes a little more into the usual rant about low skill floor and high skill ceiling. You're heavily incentivized in open world PvE to do things that are flat out suicide during serious instanced encounters and they took as long as HoT to even try fixing it (and then it was a mess of a fix because HoT was deemed too hard and they had to retcon a lot of open world mechanics in PoF, going back to semi casual). The 'tutorial' if you can even consider it to be one, has absolutely NO mention of the most fundamental mechanics such as dodging telegraphed attacks and defiance bars, as well as the importance and the difference it will make in your DPS to finish your AA chains (protip: if you're going to ever have the player put in a DPS race, make smaller ones way before said player reaches that point).

    So what we have are two completely different games where most mechanics from raids are either trivialized or don't see the light of day at all in open world, and open world is awfully disconnected to the kind of gameplay going on in raids, to the point the skill gap eventually became the problem we have today. The way in which this is a problem however is not what people might think. You see, it's not hard to get into raids and raiders are correct to say this. If you're a support class your DPS will not be looked at, at all, for 90% of groups, and also if you do take a DPS there are several DPS classes where you can ONLY auto attack if you so wanted and it would still reach upwards of 18k DPS, more than enough for practically anything and allows you to pay attention to mechanics.

    But you see, this is not what happens is it? There are no "middle tier" groups taking 4 Shiro/Jalis Heralds to Gorseval and not many groups taking 3 healers to pug Matthias. Instead we either have training groups or high LI squads that expect you to be at or nearly at the top of your game, and take a class with high potential DPS regardless of your ability to reach that ceiling. It's also not even team-imposed but self-imposed sometimes, as in you could actually have asked your squad to take a power Rev but explicitly decided to take your 13k Weaver because reasons. So yeah, this game has basically been designed around there being no consistent middle tier in skill and only somewhat tight knit groups tend to pursue the route to the skill ceiling for this reason. Anet is finally after so many years trying to repair this situation and Strike Missions are their next attempt, in spite of OP's or anyone else's feelings about raids having to be kept exclusive and etc etc. Not that this is going to stop people to discussing this to exhaustion, but just a heads up for newer players: something is being attempted about it and you kinda can go into raids without reaching any kind of skill ceiling.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    the thing to take away from Mike's interview:
    the difference between average dps and hardcore dps is 10x.

    Let that sit for a while. And that is AVERAGE not LOW END.

    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    It's a bit more complicated than that. It really comes down to the setting, goals, and connectivity of the players.

    I know I rep these numbers a lot, but awhile ago I did some auto attack tests coupled with a few simple rotations. This was all done assuming raid builds, raid buffs, and raid food. The results I came to are pretty simple: for most weapons the baseline DPS for any class is half what the peak was for melee DPS, about a third for ranged and condi weapons, and much lower for several meme builds (staff necro being the worst). Considering that this is what is done from either auto attacking or spamming 2 or 3 skills, these numbers are the minimum you can expect from any player who is geared, somewhat informed, and not dead from failed mechanics. Adjust for each encounter's DPS uptime.

    What Mike is talking about are players who are not geared, informed, or motivated. I.E. the player who spams every skill on their bar randomly while wearing whatever random gear they happened to loot using a build of nonsensical or random traits, and all of this while traveling alone with no outside buffs. When we're dealing with this degree of... lack of skill, there's only so much that can be done to reasonably accommodate that player. Aside from utter randos who have no idea what they're doing and/or do not care, it isn't unreasonable to expect that a player who wants to raid is going to show up in full berserker gear with mostly DPS boosting traits.

    However, it has been one of my biggest criticisms toward this game that it's build system and game mechanics encourages players to be terrible at it. Getting good at the game involves abandoning all of the conventions and tools given to you. Roughly akin to that one video The Spiffing Brit did where he showed one of the best ways to play Prison Architect is to forgo the prison and just make a lumber yard. I don't know how to solve this problem, since it is ingrained in everything that defines GW2, but nonetheless it is the biggest issue facing challenging content design.

    So these topics always get heated up to the point of uselessness but I'd like to point whoever is new/kinda new to raids to this one post since it goes a little more into the usual rant about low skill floor and high skill ceiling. You're heavily incentivized in open world PvE to do things that are flat out suicide during serious instanced encounters and they took as long as HoT to even try fixing it (and then it was a mess of a fix because HoT was deemed too hard and they had to retcon a lot of open world mechanics in PoF, going back to semi casual). The 'tutorial' if you can even consider it to be one, has absolutely NO mention of the most fundamental mechanics such as dodging telegraphed attacks and defiance bars, as well as the importance and the difference it will make in your DPS to finish your AA chains (protip: if you're going to ever have the player put in a DPS race, make smaller ones way before said player reaches that point).

    So what we have are two completely different games where most mechanics from raids are either trivialized or don't see the light of day at all in open world, and open world is awfully disconnected to the kind of gameplay going on in raids, to the point the skill gap eventually became the problem we have today. The way in which this is a problem however is not what people might think. You see, it's not hard to get into raids and raiders are correct to say this. If you're a support class your DPS will not be looked at, at all, for 90% of groups, and also if you do take a DPS there are several DPS classes where you can ONLY auto attack if you so wanted and it would still reach upwards of 18k DPS, more than enough for practically anything and allows you to pay attention to mechanics.

    But you see, this is not what happens is it? There are no "middle tier" groups taking 4 Shiro/Jalis Heralds to Gorseval and not many groups taking 3 healers to pug Matthias. Instead we either have training groups or high LI squads that expect you to be at or nearly at the top of your game, and take a class with high potential DPS regardless of your ability to reach that ceiling. It's also not even team-imposed but self-imposed sometimes, as in you could actually have asked your squad to take a power Rev but explicitly decided to take your 13k Weaver because reasons. So yeah, this game has basically been designed around there being no consistent middle tier in skill and only somewhat tight knit groups tend to pursue the route to the skill ceiling for this reason. Anet is finally after so many years trying to repair this situation and Strike Missions are their next attempt, in spite of OP's or anyone else's feelings about raids having to be kept exclusive and etc etc. Not that this is going to stop people to discussing this to exhaustion, but just a heads up for newer players: something is being attempted about it and you kinda can go into raids without reaching any kind of skill ceiling

    Join a raiding guild or form your group. There is most definitely a middle ground between the high LI pug groups and training runs.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    the thing to take away from Mike's interview:
    the difference between average dps and hardcore dps is 10x.

    Let that sit for a while. And that is AVERAGE not LOW END.

    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    It's a bit more complicated than that. It really comes down to the setting, goals, and connectivity of the players.

    I know I rep these numbers a lot, but awhile ago I did some auto attack tests coupled with a few simple rotations. This was all done assuming raid builds, raid buffs, and raid food. The results I came to are pretty simple: for most weapons the baseline DPS for any class is half what the peak was for melee DPS, about a third for ranged and condi weapons, and much lower for several meme builds (staff necro being the worst). Considering that this is what is done from either auto attacking or spamming 2 or 3 skills, these numbers are the minimum you can expect from any player who is geared, somewhat informed, and not dead from failed mechanics. Adjust for each encounter's DPS uptime.

    What Mike is talking about are players who are not geared, informed, or motivated. I.E. the player who spams every skill on their bar randomly while wearing whatever random gear they happened to loot using a build of nonsensical or random traits, and all of this while traveling alone with no outside buffs. When we're dealing with this degree of... lack of skill, there's only so much that can be done to reasonably accommodate that player. Aside from utter randos who have no idea what they're doing and/or do not care, it isn't unreasonable to expect that a player who wants to raid is going to show up in full berserker gear with mostly DPS boosting traits.

    However, it has been one of my biggest criticisms toward this game that it's build system and game mechanics encourages players to be terrible at it. Getting good at the game involves abandoning all of the conventions and tools given to you. Roughly akin to that one video The Spiffing Brit did where he showed one of the best ways to play Prison Architect is to forgo the prison and just make a lumber yard. I don't know how to solve this problem, since it is ingrained in everything that defines GW2, but nonetheless it is the biggest issue facing challenging content design.

    So these topics always get heated up to the point of uselessness but I'd like to point whoever is new/kinda new to raids to this one post since it goes a little more into the usual rant about low skill floor and high skill ceiling. You're heavily incentivized in open world PvE to do things that are flat out suicide during serious instanced encounters and they took as long as HoT to even try fixing it (and then it was a mess of a fix because HoT was deemed too hard and they had to retcon a lot of open world mechanics in PoF, going back to semi casual). The 'tutorial' if you can even consider it to be one, has absolutely NO mention of the most fundamental mechanics such as dodging telegraphed attacks and defiance bars, as well as the importance and the difference it will make in your DPS to finish your AA chains (protip: if you're going to ever have the player put in a DPS race, make smaller ones way before said player reaches that point).

    So what we have are two completely different games where most mechanics from raids are either trivialized or don't see the light of day at all in open world, and open world is awfully disconnected to the kind of gameplay going on in raids, to the point the skill gap eventually became the problem we have today. The way in which this is a problem however is not what people might think. You see, it's not hard to get into raids and raiders are correct to say this. If you're a support class your DPS will not be looked at, at all, for 90% of groups, and also if you do take a DPS there are several DPS classes where you can ONLY auto attack if you so wanted and it would still reach upwards of 18k DPS, more than enough for practically anything and allows you to pay attention to mechanics.

    But you see, this is not what happens is it? There are no "middle tier" groups taking 4 Shiro/Jalis Heralds to Gorseval and not many groups taking 3 healers to pug Matthias. Instead we either have training groups or high LI squads that expect you to be at or nearly at the top of your game, and take a class with high potential DPS regardless of your ability to reach that ceiling. It's also not even team-imposed but self-imposed sometimes, as in you could actually have asked your squad to take a power Rev but explicitly decided to take your 13k Weaver because reasons. So yeah, this game has basically been designed around there being no consistent middle tier in skill and only somewhat tight knit groups tend to pursue the route to the skill ceiling for this reason. Anet is finally after so many years trying to repair this situation and Strike Missions are their next attempt, in spite of OP's or anyone else's feelings about raids having to be kept exclusive and etc etc. Not that this is going to stop people to discussing this to exhaustion, but just a heads up for newer players: something is being attempted about it and you kinda can go into raids without reaching any kind of skill ceiling

    Join a raiding guild or form your group. There is most definitely a middle ground between the high LI pug groups and training runs.

    Please, this is exactly what my post says. The middle ground is all inside of tight knit groups and they will always remain tight knit. GW2 is an egotistical game that heavily favors playing by yourself and finding random people on the map to join you, until you reach instanced content. Then it becomes the exactly opposite and you are strongly motivated to move into discord servers and group up with specific players for more than one session if you want to efficiently achieve goals. This design dichotomy does not depend on us players, it's simply ingrained into faulty design. Raids are very well designed and, lack of difficulty apart, open world is very well designed as well. But there is really no consistent middle ground at all in between both, and the word consistent is key here, since of course I can make my own groups, but there is no middle tier culture when I first get there to being with, and all of what there is, I will only find out if I do what the game never told me to do before (i.e socialize). This has nothing to do with the playerbase in itself really - most of us will be social if the game requires it, see WvW - and entirely something Anet has to work around and change incentives and motivations. It is quite tempting to put gameplay all on the backs of players and go by Anet's motto of "we are playing it our way" but in reality psychology plays an immense role in how a majority of people will treat the game.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    the thing to take away from Mike's interview:
    the difference between average dps and hardcore dps is 10x.

    Let that sit for a while. And that is AVERAGE not LOW END.

    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    It's a bit more complicated than that. It really comes down to the setting, goals, and connectivity of the players.

    I know I rep these numbers a lot, but awhile ago I did some auto attack tests coupled with a few simple rotations. This was all done assuming raid builds, raid buffs, and raid food. The results I came to are pretty simple: for most weapons the baseline DPS for any class is half what the peak was for melee DPS, about a third for ranged and condi weapons, and much lower for several meme builds (staff necro being the worst). Considering that this is what is done from either auto attacking or spamming 2 or 3 skills, these numbers are the minimum you can expect from any player who is geared, somewhat informed, and not dead from failed mechanics. Adjust for each encounter's DPS uptime.

    What Mike is talking about are players who are not geared, informed, or motivated. I.E. the player who spams every skill on their bar randomly while wearing whatever random gear they happened to loot using a build of nonsensical or random traits, and all of this while traveling alone with no outside buffs. When we're dealing with this degree of... lack of skill, there's only so much that can be done to reasonably accommodate that player. Aside from utter randos who have no idea what they're doing and/or do not care, it isn't unreasonable to expect that a player who wants to raid is going to show up in full berserker gear with mostly DPS boosting traits.

    However, it has been one of my biggest criticisms toward this game that it's build system and game mechanics encourages players to be terrible at it. Getting good at the game involves abandoning all of the conventions and tools given to you. Roughly akin to that one video The Spiffing Brit did where he showed one of the best ways to play Prison Architect is to forgo the prison and just make a lumber yard. I don't know how to solve this problem, since it is ingrained in everything that defines GW2, but nonetheless it is the biggest issue facing challenging content design.

    So these topics always get heated up to the point of uselessness but I'd like to point whoever is new/kinda new to raids to this one post since it goes a little more into the usual rant about low skill floor and high skill ceiling. You're heavily incentivized in open world PvE to do things that are flat out suicide during serious instanced encounters and they took as long as HoT to even try fixing it (and then it was a mess of a fix because HoT was deemed too hard and they had to retcon a lot of open world mechanics in PoF, going back to semi casual). The 'tutorial' if you can even consider it to be one, has absolutely NO mention of the most fundamental mechanics such as dodging telegraphed attacks and defiance bars, as well as the importance and the difference it will make in your DPS to finish your AA chains (protip: if you're going to ever have the player put in a DPS race, make smaller ones way before said player reaches that point).

    So what we have are two completely different games where most mechanics from raids are either trivialized or don't see the light of day at all in open world, and open world is awfully disconnected to the kind of gameplay going on in raids, to the point the skill gap eventually became the problem we have today. The way in which this is a problem however is not what people might think. You see, it's not hard to get into raids and raiders are correct to say this. If you're a support class your DPS will not be looked at, at all, for 90% of groups, and also if you do take a DPS there are several DPS classes where you can ONLY auto attack if you so wanted and it would still reach upwards of 18k DPS, more than enough for practically anything and allows you to pay attention to mechanics.

    But you see, this is not what happens is it? There are no "middle tier" groups taking 4 Shiro/Jalis Heralds to Gorseval and not many groups taking 3 healers to pug Matthias. Instead we either have training groups or high LI squads that expect you to be at or nearly at the top of your game, and take a class with high potential DPS regardless of your ability to reach that ceiling. It's also not even team-imposed but self-imposed sometimes, as in you could actually have asked your squad to take a power Rev but explicitly decided to take your 13k Weaver because reasons. So yeah, this game has basically been designed around there being no consistent middle tier in skill and only somewhat tight knit groups tend to pursue the route to the skill ceiling for this reason. Anet is finally after so many years trying to repair this situation and Strike Missions are their next attempt, in spite of OP's or anyone else's feelings about raids having to be kept exclusive and etc etc. Not that this is going to stop people to discussing this to exhaustion, but just a heads up for newer players: something is being attempted about it and you kinda can go into raids without reaching any kind of skill ceiling

    Join a raiding guild or form your group. There is most definitely a middle ground between the high LI pug groups and training runs.

    Please, this is exactly what my post says. The middle ground is all inside of tight knit groups and they will always remain tight knit. GW2 is an egotistical game that heavily favors playing by yourself and finding random people on the map to join you, until you reach instanced content. Then it becomes the exactly opposite and you are strongly motivated to move into discord servers and group up with specific players for more than one session if you want to efficiently achieve goals. This design dichotomy does not depend on us players, it's simply ingrained into faulty design. Raids are very well designed and, lack of difficulty apart, open world is very well designed as well. But there is really no consistent middle ground at all in between both, and the word consistent is key here, since of course I can make my own groups, but there is no middle tier culture when I first get there to being with, and all of what there is, I will only find out if I do what the game never told me to do before (i.e socialize). This has nothing to do with the playerbase in itself really - most of us will be social if the game requires it, see WvW - and entirely something Anet has to work around and change incentives and motivations. It is quite tempting to put gameplay all on the backs of players and go by Anet's motto of "we are playing it our way" but in reality psychology plays an immense role in how a majority of people will treat the game.

    Your post said there was no middle ground but there is. So no, this isn’t exactly what your post said. Joining a guild that does raids is not the same as the pug groups that require high LI/KP.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    the thing to take away from Mike's interview:
    the difference between average dps and hardcore dps is 10x.

    Let that sit for a while. And that is AVERAGE not LOW END.

    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    It's a bit more complicated than that. It really comes down to the setting, goals, and connectivity of the players.

    I know I rep these numbers a lot, but awhile ago I did some auto attack tests coupled with a few simple rotations. This was all done assuming raid builds, raid buffs, and raid food. The results I came to are pretty simple: for most weapons the baseline DPS for any class is half what the peak was for melee DPS, about a third for ranged and condi weapons, and much lower for several meme builds (staff necro being the worst). Considering that this is what is done from either auto attacking or spamming 2 or 3 skills, these numbers are the minimum you can expect from any player who is geared, somewhat informed, and not dead from failed mechanics. Adjust for each encounter's DPS uptime.

    What Mike is talking about are players who are not geared, informed, or motivated. I.E. the player who spams every skill on their bar randomly while wearing whatever random gear they happened to loot using a build of nonsensical or random traits, and all of this while traveling alone with no outside buffs. When we're dealing with this degree of... lack of skill, there's only so much that can be done to reasonably accommodate that player. Aside from utter randos who have no idea what they're doing and/or do not care, it isn't unreasonable to expect that a player who wants to raid is going to show up in full berserker gear with mostly DPS boosting traits.

    However, it has been one of my biggest criticisms toward this game that it's build system and game mechanics encourages players to be terrible at it. Getting good at the game involves abandoning all of the conventions and tools given to you. Roughly akin to that one video The Spiffing Brit did where he showed one of the best ways to play Prison Architect is to forgo the prison and just make a lumber yard. I don't know how to solve this problem, since it is ingrained in everything that defines GW2, but nonetheless it is the biggest issue facing challenging content design.

    So these topics always get heated up to the point of uselessness but I'd like to point whoever is new/kinda new to raids to this one post since it goes a little more into the usual rant about low skill floor and high skill ceiling. You're heavily incentivized in open world PvE to do things that are flat out suicide during serious instanced encounters and they took as long as HoT to even try fixing it (and then it was a mess of a fix because HoT was deemed too hard and they had to retcon a lot of open world mechanics in PoF, going back to semi casual). The 'tutorial' if you can even consider it to be one, has absolutely NO mention of the most fundamental mechanics such as dodging telegraphed attacks and defiance bars, as well as the importance and the difference it will make in your DPS to finish your AA chains (protip: if you're going to ever have the player put in a DPS race, make smaller ones way before said player reaches that point).

    So what we have are two completely different games where most mechanics from raids are either trivialized or don't see the light of day at all in open world, and open world is awfully disconnected to the kind of gameplay going on in raids, to the point the skill gap eventually became the problem we have today. The way in which this is a problem however is not what people might think. You see, it's not hard to get into raids and raiders are correct to say this. If you're a support class your DPS will not be looked at, at all, for 90% of groups, and also if you do take a DPS there are several DPS classes where you can ONLY auto attack if you so wanted and it would still reach upwards of 18k DPS, more than enough for practically anything and allows you to pay attention to mechanics.

    But you see, this is not what happens is it? There are no "middle tier" groups taking 4 Shiro/Jalis Heralds to Gorseval and not many groups taking 3 healers to pug Matthias. Instead we either have training groups or high LI squads that expect you to be at or nearly at the top of your game, and take a class with high potential DPS regardless of your ability to reach that ceiling. It's also not even team-imposed but self-imposed sometimes, as in you could actually have asked your squad to take a power Rev but explicitly decided to take your 13k Weaver because reasons. So yeah, this game has basically been designed around there being no consistent middle tier in skill and only somewhat tight knit groups tend to pursue the route to the skill ceiling for this reason. Anet is finally after so many years trying to repair this situation and Strike Missions are their next attempt, in spite of OP's or anyone else's feelings about raids having to be kept exclusive and etc etc. Not that this is going to stop people to discussing this to exhaustion, but just a heads up for newer players: something is being attempted about it and you kinda can go into raids without reaching any kind of skill ceiling

    Join a raiding guild or form your group. There is most definitely a middle ground between the high LI pug groups and training runs.

    Please, this is exactly what my post says. The middle ground is all inside of tight knit groups and they will always remain tight knit. GW2 is an egotistical game that heavily favors playing by yourself and finding random people on the map to join you, until you reach instanced content. Then it becomes the exactly opposite and you are strongly motivated to move into discord servers and group up with specific players for more than one session if you want to efficiently achieve goals. This design dichotomy does not depend on us players, it's simply ingrained into faulty design. Raids are very well designed and, lack of difficulty apart, open world is very well designed as well. But there is really no consistent middle ground at all in between both, and the word consistent is key here, since of course I can make my own groups, but there is no middle tier culture when I first get there to being with, and all of what there is, I will only find out if I do what the game never told me to do before (i.e socialize). This has nothing to do with the playerbase in itself really - most of us will be social if the game requires it, see WvW - and entirely something Anet has to work around and change incentives and motivations. It is quite tempting to put gameplay all on the backs of players and go by Anet's motto of "we are playing it our way" but in reality psychology plays an immense role in how a majority of people will treat the game.

    Your post said there was no middle ground but there is. So no, this isn’t exactly what your post said. Joining a guild that does raids is not the same as the pug groups that require high LI/KP.

    There are no middle tier groups in between training and close knit guild groups from guilds that do raids. You are forced to get organized and this is OK for raid design but is a total 180, a complete disparity from the rest of the game, and this needs to be addressed. Why excuse Anet for faulty design putting it on the back of the playerbase? Training guilds and whatnot are workarounds and that's it. Of course High LI/KP groups and raiding guilds are not the same, but they have the same expectations that you are either in training or ready to push towards the benchmarks instead of sitting at some middle term plateau, and this is a direct consequence of how the game is designed, it's not something players have sat down and decided upon by themselves.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    the thing to take away from Mike's interview:
    the difference between average dps and hardcore dps is 10x.

    Let that sit for a while. And that is AVERAGE not LOW END.

    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    It's a bit more complicated than that. It really comes down to the setting, goals, and connectivity of the players.

    I know I rep these numbers a lot, but awhile ago I did some auto attack tests coupled with a few simple rotations. This was all done assuming raid builds, raid buffs, and raid food. The results I came to are pretty simple: for most weapons the baseline DPS for any class is half what the peak was for melee DPS, about a third for ranged and condi weapons, and much lower for several meme builds (staff necro being the worst). Considering that this is what is done from either auto attacking or spamming 2 or 3 skills, these numbers are the minimum you can expect from any player who is geared, somewhat informed, and not dead from failed mechanics. Adjust for each encounter's DPS uptime.

    What Mike is talking about are players who are not geared, informed, or motivated. I.E. the player who spams every skill on their bar randomly while wearing whatever random gear they happened to loot using a build of nonsensical or random traits, and all of this while traveling alone with no outside buffs. When we're dealing with this degree of... lack of skill, there's only so much that can be done to reasonably accommodate that player. Aside from utter randos who have no idea what they're doing and/or do not care, it isn't unreasonable to expect that a player who wants to raid is going to show up in full berserker gear with mostly DPS boosting traits.

    However, it has been one of my biggest criticisms toward this game that it's build system and game mechanics encourages players to be terrible at it. Getting good at the game involves abandoning all of the conventions and tools given to you. Roughly akin to that one video The Spiffing Brit did where he showed one of the best ways to play Prison Architect is to forgo the prison and just make a lumber yard. I don't know how to solve this problem, since it is ingrained in everything that defines GW2, but nonetheless it is the biggest issue facing challenging content design.

    So these topics always get heated up to the point of uselessness but I'd like to point whoever is new/kinda new to raids to this one post since it goes a little more into the usual rant about low skill floor and high skill ceiling. You're heavily incentivized in open world PvE to do things that are flat out suicide during serious instanced encounters and they took as long as HoT to even try fixing it (and then it was a mess of a fix because HoT was deemed too hard and they had to retcon a lot of open world mechanics in PoF, going back to semi casual). The 'tutorial' if you can even consider it to be one, has absolutely NO mention of the most fundamental mechanics such as dodging telegraphed attacks and defiance bars, as well as the importance and the difference it will make in your DPS to finish your AA chains (protip: if you're going to ever have the player put in a DPS race, make smaller ones way before said player reaches that point).

    So what we have are two completely different games where most mechanics from raids are either trivialized or don't see the light of day at all in open world, and open world is awfully disconnected to the kind of gameplay going on in raids, to the point the skill gap eventually became the problem we have today. The way in which this is a problem however is not what people might think. You see, it's not hard to get into raids and raiders are correct to say this. If you're a support class your DPS will not be looked at, at all, for 90% of groups, and also if you do take a DPS there are several DPS classes where you can ONLY auto attack if you so wanted and it would still reach upwards of 18k DPS, more than enough for practically anything and allows you to pay attention to mechanics.

    But you see, this is not what happens is it? There are no "middle tier" groups taking 4 Shiro/Jalis Heralds to Gorseval and not many groups taking 3 healers to pug Matthias. Instead we either have training groups or high LI squads that expect you to be at or nearly at the top of your game, and take a class with high potential DPS regardless of your ability to reach that ceiling. It's also not even team-imposed but self-imposed sometimes, as in you could actually have asked your squad to take a power Rev but explicitly decided to take your 13k Weaver because reasons. So yeah, this game has basically been designed around there being no consistent middle tier in skill and only somewhat tight knit groups tend to pursue the route to the skill ceiling for this reason. Anet is finally after so many years trying to repair this situation and Strike Missions are their next attempt, in spite of OP's or anyone else's feelings about raids having to be kept exclusive and etc etc. Not that this is going to stop people to discussing this to exhaustion, but just a heads up for newer players: something is being attempted about it and you kinda can go into raids without reaching any kind of skill ceiling

    Join a raiding guild or form your group. There is most definitely a middle ground between the high LI pug groups and training runs.

    Please, this is exactly what my post says. The middle ground is all inside of tight knit groups and they will always remain tight knit. GW2 is an egotistical game that heavily favors playing by yourself and finding random people on the map to join you, until you reach instanced content. Then it becomes the exactly opposite and you are strongly motivated to move into discord servers and group up with specific players for more than one session if you want to efficiently achieve goals. This design dichotomy does not depend on us players, it's simply ingrained into faulty design. Raids are very well designed and, lack of difficulty apart, open world is very well designed as well. But there is really no consistent middle ground at all in between both, and the word consistent is key here, since of course I can make my own groups, but there is no middle tier culture when I first get there to being with, and all of what there is, I will only find out if I do what the game never told me to do before (i.e socialize). This has nothing to do with the playerbase in itself really - most of us will be social if the game requires it, see WvW - and entirely something Anet has to work around and change incentives and motivations. It is quite tempting to put gameplay all on the backs of players and go by Anet's motto of "we are playing it our way" but in reality psychology plays an immense role in how a majority of people will treat the game.

    Your post said there was no middle ground but there is. So no, this isn’t exactly what your post said. Joining a guild that does raids is not the same as the pug groups that require high LI/KP.

    There are no middle tier groups in between training and close knit guild groups from guilds that do raids. You are forced to get organized and this is OK for raid design but is a total 180, a complete disparity from the rest of the game, and this needs to be addressed. Why excuse Anet for faulty design putting it on the back of the playerbase? Training guilds and whatnot are workarounds and that's it. Of course High LI/KP groups and raiding guilds are not the same, but they have the same expectations that you are either in training or ready to push towards the benchmarks instead of sitting at some middle term plateau, and this is a direct consequence of how the game is designed, it's not something players have sat down and decided upon by themselves.

    There are raid guilds which are actively recruiting members and willing to train. Those with some experience are also able to join them as well. Your blanket statement that there is no middle ground is wrong.

    It’s not faulty design to have challenging content. It’s on the players to learn the raid mechanics; not Anet. Existing group content, and the upcoming strike missions, help bridge this gap from between the open world spam auto attack and raids.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    The main problem is still the access to recruiting members on the one hand & finding guilds on the other. Forums, reddit and community discords are the way to go here but that seems unplausible to many players because they have to go "outside of the game".
    Things would definitely work better with a proper ingame searching tool (both ways) like some (maddoctor.2738 for example) have already proposed.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2019

    @Henry.5713 said:
    I am most likely not the target audience of Open World PvE and story content. What should I do? Quit the game and move on to other games which focus on the content I enjoy most: raids and Open World PvP? Should I complain and ask Open World PvE and story instances to be changed to be more to my liking because I am entitled to it? Or should I just play the content I like while being happy for those who do enjoy content I do not? I wonder....

    Whatever you want. You're free to ask developers for anything, just as other players are. This doesn't mean everyone will agree to it, of course, but fortunately for you, it;s the devs that will ultimately decide, not the other players.

    By the way,your second example - "Should I complain and ask Open World PvE and story instances to be changed to be more to my liking because I am entitled to it?" - has already happened in this game before ina very visible way. More hardcore crowd complained on the forums that the PvE was too easy and it should be made harder. The result was HoT. The difficulty... as you know was not met with as much applause as those asking for it hoped.

    In short: asking for content to be changed frequently happens on both sides of the divide, and infrequently ends up with results (again, for either one or the other side). It's a constant tug of war, in which no side has ever been satisfied with what they had. Because, it is not really possible to satisfy everyone.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    the thing to take away from Mike's interview:
    the difference between average dps and hardcore dps is 10x.

    Let that sit for a while. And that is AVERAGE not LOW END.

    Then you might realize why raids are a total niche and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players. Who probably spend a lot more real money on the game than the oh-I-am-so-awesome-hardcore-raid people.

    It's a bit more complicated than that. It really comes down to the setting, goals, and connectivity of the players.

    I know I rep these numbers a lot, but awhile ago I did some auto attack tests coupled with a few simple rotations. This was all done assuming raid builds, raid buffs, and raid food. The results I came to are pretty simple: for most weapons the baseline DPS for any class is half what the peak was for melee DPS, about a third for ranged and condi weapons, and much lower for several meme builds (staff necro being the worst). Considering that this is what is done from either auto attacking or spamming 2 or 3 skills, these numbers are the minimum you can expect from any player who is geared, somewhat informed, and not dead from failed mechanics. Adjust for each encounter's DPS uptime.

    What Mike is talking about are players who are not geared, informed, or motivated. I.E. the player who spams every skill on their bar randomly while wearing whatever random gear they happened to loot using a build of nonsensical or random traits, and all of this while traveling alone with no outside buffs. When we're dealing with this degree of... lack of skill, there's only so much that can be done to reasonably accommodate that player. Aside from utter randos who have no idea what they're doing and/or do not care, it isn't unreasonable to expect that a player who wants to raid is going to show up in full berserker gear with mostly DPS boosting traits.

    However, it has been one of my biggest criticisms toward this game that it's build system and game mechanics encourages players to be terrible at it. Getting good at the game involves abandoning all of the conventions and tools given to you. Roughly akin to that one video The Spiffing Brit did where he showed one of the best ways to play Prison Architect is to forgo the prison and just make a lumber yard. I don't know how to solve this problem, since it is ingrained in everything that defines GW2, but nonetheless it is the biggest issue facing challenging content design.

    So these topics always get heated up to the point of uselessness but I'd like to point whoever is new/kinda new to raids to this one post since it goes a little more into the usual rant about low skill floor and high skill ceiling. You're heavily incentivized in open world PvE to do things that are flat out suicide during serious instanced encounters and they took as long as HoT to even try fixing it (and then it was a mess of a fix because HoT was deemed too hard and they had to retcon a lot of open world mechanics in PoF, going back to semi casual). The 'tutorial' if you can even consider it to be one, has absolutely NO mention of the most fundamental mechanics such as dodging telegraphed attacks and defiance bars, as well as the importance and the difference it will make in your DPS to finish your AA chains (protip: if you're going to ever have the player put in a DPS race, make smaller ones way before said player reaches that point).

    So what we have are two completely different games where most mechanics from raids are either trivialized or don't see the light of day at all in open world, and open world is awfully disconnected to the kind of gameplay going on in raids, to the point the skill gap eventually became the problem we have today. The way in which this is a problem however is not what people might think. You see, it's not hard to get into raids and raiders are correct to say this. If you're a support class your DPS will not be looked at, at all, for 90% of groups, and also if you do take a DPS there are several DPS classes where you can ONLY auto attack if you so wanted and it would still reach upwards of 18k DPS, more than enough for practically anything and allows you to pay attention to mechanics.

    But you see, this is not what happens is it? There are no "middle tier" groups taking 4 Shiro/Jalis Heralds to Gorseval and not many groups taking 3 healers to pug Matthias. Instead we either have training groups or high LI squads that expect you to be at or nearly at the top of your game, and take a class with high potential DPS regardless of your ability to reach that ceiling. It's also not even team-imposed but self-imposed sometimes, as in you could actually have asked your squad to take a power Rev but explicitly decided to take your 13k Weaver because reasons. So yeah, this game has basically been designed around there being no consistent middle tier in skill and only somewhat tight knit groups tend to pursue the route to the skill ceiling for this reason. Anet is finally after so many years trying to repair this situation and Strike Missions are their next attempt, in spite of OP's or anyone else's feelings about raids having to be kept exclusive and etc etc. Not that this is going to stop people to discussing this to exhaustion, but just a heads up for newer players: something is being attempted about it and you kinda can go into raids without reaching any kind of skill ceiling

    Join a raiding guild or form your group. There is most definitely a middle ground between the high LI pug groups and training runs.

    Please, this is exactly what my post says. The middle ground is all inside of tight knit groups and they will always remain tight knit. GW2 is an egotistical game that heavily favors playing by yourself and finding random people on the map to join you, until you reach instanced content. Then it becomes the exactly opposite and you are strongly motivated to move into discord servers and group up with specific players for more than one session if you want to efficiently achieve goals. This design dichotomy does not depend on us players, it's simply ingrained into faulty design. Raids are very well designed and, lack of difficulty apart, open world is very well designed as well. But there is really no consistent middle ground at all in between both, and the word consistent is key here, since of course I can make my own groups, but there is no middle tier culture when I first get there to being with, and all of what there is, I will only find out if I do what the game never told me to do before (i.e socialize). This has nothing to do with the playerbase in itself really - most of us will be social if the game requires it, see WvW - and entirely something Anet has to work around and change incentives and motivations. It is quite tempting to put gameplay all on the backs of players and go by Anet's motto of "we are playing it our way" but in reality psychology plays an immense role in how a majority of people will treat the game.

    Your post said there was no middle ground but there is. So no, this isn’t exactly what your post said. Joining a guild that does raids is not the same as the pug groups that require high LI/KP.

    There are no middle tier groups in between training and close knit guild groups from guilds that do raids. You are forced to get organized and this is OK for raid design but is a total 180, a complete disparity from the rest of the game, and this needs to be addressed. Why excuse Anet for faulty design putting it on the back of the playerbase? Training guilds and whatnot are workarounds and that's it. Of course High LI/KP groups and raiding guilds are not the same, but they have the same expectations that you are either in training or ready to push towards the benchmarks instead of sitting at some middle term plateau, and this is a direct consequence of how the game is designed, it's not something players have sat down and decided upon by themselves.

    There are raid guilds which are actively recruiting members and willing to train. Those with some experience are also able to join them as well. Your blanket statement that there is no middle ground is wrong.

    It’s not faulty design to have challenging content. It’s on the players to learn the raid mechanics; not Anet. Existing group content, and the upcoming strike missions, help bridge this gap from between the open world spam auto attack and raids.

    To be fair, raid recruitment/training guilds often end up with a close static group very fast. And population of the game simply isn't stable enough to have multiple statics. So if you joined at the bad time it is basically "no soup" for you. Not saying I disagree with you but its also not as simple.

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    and everything hidden in raids is basically stolen from the vast majority of players.

    Such entitlement.
    Much wow.

    if there is one group that better check their priviledges it is raiders:

    who got the good looking legendary armor while everybody else (who have to spend hundreds of hours to get it) gets garbage? raiders
    who gets more or less regular content drops, while others (wvw, pvp) get nothing? raiders
    whose playmode dominates balancing and make others suffer? raiders
    who get lore that this locked away for others? raiders

    see a pattern?
    btw, raid legendary armor: I am still angry (really angry) that the legendary raid skin was and is not the universal legendary armor skin. Oh no, the precious flowers had to get something really really special. Why?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    if there is one group that better check their priviledges it is raiders:

    who got the good looking legendary armor while everybody else (who have to spend hundreds of hours to get it) gets garbage? raiders
    who gets more or less regular content drops, while others (wvw, pvp) get nothing? raiders
    whose playmode dominates balancing and make others suffer? raiders
    who get lore that this locked away for others? raiders

    see a pattern?
    btw, raid legendary armor: I am still angry (really angry) that the legendary raid skin was and is not the universal legendary armor skin. Oh no, the precious flowers had to get something really really special. Why?

    You got it all wrong.

    Who got all the good looking (arguable) gem store items? Farmers
    Who got all the account based addons from the gem store? Farmers
    Who gets regular content drops? Farmers, I laugh at the "content drops" for Raids
    Which player mode dominates balancing and makes other suffer? Farmers

    See a pattern here?

    The group that has all the privileges is the casual farmers that never have to spend any cash to buy things from the gem store, they get the best skins, the best addons, the most content and ruin balancing. That group is by far the worst

  • Well you see when the target demographic is not the overwhelming majority of players, that can be problematic. This content that takes time and money to make is only enjoyed by a few people, to me that doesn't seem like a sound decision. I think that the developers have begun seeing that too as budget and schedules have gotten tighter so it's probably why they're already introducing "easy" mode raids aka strike missions. Hopefully those do well so that the day they move on completely from raids comes sooner rather than later. And you and the target demographic for the raids can happily continue gatekeeping Vale Guardian, Samarog and co. as you repeat them for the 1000th time. :)

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    I am most likely not the target audience of Open World PvE and story content. What should I do? Quit the game and move on to other games which focus on the content I enjoy most: raids and Open World PvP? Should I complain and ask Open World PvE and story instances to be changed to be more to my liking because I am entitled to it? Or should I just play the content I like while being happy for those who do enjoy content I do not? I wonder....

    Whatever you want. You're free to ask developers for anything, just as other players are. This doesn't mean everyone will agree to it, of course, but fortunately for you, it;s the devs that will ultimately decide, not the other players.

    By the way,your second example - "Should I complain and ask Open World PvE and story instances to be changed to be more to my liking because I am entitled to it?" - has already happened in this game before ina very visible way. More hardcore crowd complained on the forums that the PvE was too easy and it should be made harder. The result was HoT. The difficulty... as you know was not met with as much applause as those asking for it hoped.

    In short: asking for content to be changed frequently happens on both sides of the divide, and infrequently ends up with results (again, for either one or the other side). It's a constant tug of war, in which no side has ever been satisfied with what they had. Because, it is not really possible to satisfy everyone.

    To be fair, there are plenty of gem store outfits that look far more "legendary" than that armor. I'm fine with having a legendary item that can't be bought with a CC, even if it means very few have it. And that's from someone who hasn't stepped into a raid since HoT and I'm not planning to anytime soon.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    You got it all wrong.

    Who got all the good looking (arguable) gem store items? Farmers
    Who got all the account based addons from the gem store? Farmers
    Who gets regular content drops? Farmers, I laugh at the "content drops" for Raids
    Which player mode dominates balancing and makes other suffer? Farmers

    See a pattern here?

    The group that has all the privileges is the casual farmers that never have to spend any cash to buy things from the gem store, they get the best skins, the best addons, the most content and ruin balancing. That group is by far the worst

    Someone is grossly overestimating casual farming. Especially with Anet's focus on more big-ticket gem items these days. The only group I can think who can do that with such ease are TP flippers. And those are anything but "casual".

    Also farmers dominating balancing? What??
    [moderator: content edited]

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    Someone is grossly overestimating casual farming.

    It's not about doing it easily, it's about having a much easier time than raiders. At least those farmers get way more gold than Raiders will ever hope to.

    The line

    Who got all the good looking (arguable) gem store items? Farmers

    was a response to

    who got the good looking legendary armor while everybody else (who have to spend hundreds of hours to get it) gets garbage? raiders

    There was a claim about things "hidden" in Raids as a bad thing, while there is a metric ton of things "hidden" behind excessive farming (or paying cash). But I guess it's fine to put something behind the gem store (meaning promoting farming) but it's not to put it behind actual content.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    To be fair, there are plenty of gem store outfits that look far more "legendary" than that armor. I'm fine with having a legendary item that can't be bought with a CC, even if it means very few have it. And that's from someone who hasn't stepped into a raid since HoT and I'm not planning to anytime soon.

    The post in question has absolutely nothing to do with the percieved quality of legendary armor.
    The post in question is simply a player who wants the top tier rewards from PvE content without having to do the top tier content.
    ....and then blaming those playing the top tier content for the fact they have the shiny he wants.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    Someone is grossly overestimating casual farming.

    It's not about doing it easily, it's about having a much easier time than raiders. At least those farmers get way more gold than Raiders will ever hope to.

    Casual farmers? Not even close. You're talking about very hardcore farming here - and that also is a niche.

    Also, i don't remember even a single case where class balance got affected in any way because of farmers. Even the infamous guard lootstick change was due to WvW, not it being a good farming weapon.

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    The post in question is simply a player who wants the top tier rewards from PvE content without having to do the top tier content.

    The game once had an idea that we shouldn;t funnel players toward some content designated as "endgame" (or "top tier"), and that we should decide for ourselves what should our engame be. How far have we fallen since then...

    (hint: the mere fact that you believe there's something that is a "top tier content", and that it's the only content entitled to "top tier rewards" is something i perceive as a problem. As i see it, this game should not support that way of thinking)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    It's not about doing it easily, it's about having a much easier time than raiders. At least those farmers get way more gold than Raiders will ever hope to.

    Casual farmers? Not even close. You're talking about very hardcore farming here - and that also is a niche.

    Depends on your definition of "casual", casual as in how much they play each week, or casual as in the type of content they play. I was more thinking of the second type, those that only play the easy farms of the game and ignore the more challenging content, or really any other type of content. Just like how casual has two meanings, hardcore has two meanings too, hardcore as in farming a lot of hours every day, and hardcore as in playing the most challenging content. A player can be casual in both types, hardcore in both types, or a mix of the two.

    To be precise I only differentiate the two in terms of content they play and I disregard the idea of a "casual playing few hours", so as not to confuse two meanings, for the same word. With the above in mind, the 10s of full squads in the LFG for things like Istan, Silverwastes, Dragonfall, Auric Basin, Mad King's Labyrinth, the Crown Pavilion, the World Boss Rush, the Champion Rush and so on (based on which is the best farm atm) aren't for sure filled by the hardcore players, otherwise nobody would call them a minority anymore. So it stands to reason that the majority of the players farming and filling the squads are actually on the casual side.

    Those are the players that get anything they want in the game, with a tiny few unique rewards behind certain content, that they have no access to, yet the "other side" has no access to their rewards

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    It's not about doing it easily, it's about having a much easier time than raiders. At least those farmers get way more gold than Raiders will ever hope to.

    Casual farmers? Not even close. You're talking about very hardcore farming here - and that also is a niche.

    Depends on your definition of "casual", casual as in how much they play each week, or casual as in the type of content they play. I was more thinking of the second type, those that only play the easy farms of the game and ignore the more challenging content, or really any other type of content. Just like how casual has two meanings, hardcore has two meanings too, hardcore as in farming a lot of hours every day, and hardcore as in playing the most challenging content. A player can be casual in both types, hardcore in both types, or a mix of the two.

    You misunderstood me. It's not about the time required - there are definitely casual players that still play a lot. It's about a playing style. Farming to that extent requires a dedication that is way beyond what i would consider casual. A casual player may go and do a hour of SW, few metas , and be done for a day. He is also unlikely to continue doing the same thing day after day after day.

    Hint: do you remember the first queen's gauntlet event (infamous Deadeye farming), coupled with Scarlet Invasions? People could earn ridiculous (for that time, anyway) amounts of gold then. A certain GW2 economist i'm sure you remember mentioned then, what was the income for the median active player. Not per day, but for the whole event.
    It was 2 gold.
    That is your "casual farmer".

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You misunderstood me. It's not about the time required - there are definitely casual players that still play a lot. It's about a playing style. Farming to that extent requires a dedication that is way beyond what i would consider casual. A casual player may go and do a hour of SW, few metas , and be done for a day. He is also unlikely to continue doing the same thing day after day after day.

    An hour of SW, Istan and other big meta events will net the average casual player more gold than the average raider will get in 1 hour. If anything the lower end of raider might even get 0 gold after 1 hour of Raids. There is no chance to get nothing while farming meta events. Also, Raids are locked per week. That average casual farmer will get more rewards over a week.

    That is your "casual farmer".

    Let's see, we have the casual farmer that gets nothing, the hardcore raiders that get whatever Raids give, and "the rest" of the active players that play the meta events, world bosses and farm maps, keeping the game alive and active, how do you call those? In terms of content they play they are still casual, and definitely not raiders. By the way, without those the game would be a barren wasteland.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Let's see, we have the casual farmer that gets nothing, the hardcore raiders that get whatever Raids give, and "the rest" of the active players that play the meta events, world bosses and farm maps, keeping the game alive and active, how do you call those? In terms of content they play they are still casual, and definitely not raiders. By the way, without those the game would be a barren wasteland.

    Your very perception that there even are "casual farmers" is the crook to your "naming problem".
    Farmers are just farmers. They are dedicated to farming. You may add "meta farmer" or "SW farmer" as sub categories, but they still are dedicated to farming and want to do it effectively. They are in it for the money/items.
    Raiders are dedicated to raiding. They are in it for their legendary stuff or because they enjoy hard content and peer pressure.
    Casuals players are in it for kicking back and have relaxed after-work time. They aren't dedicated to anything other than pure and distilled enjoyment.
    Casuals try to avoid any stress in games and don't care whether they are effective or not.
    Casuals aren't be farmers as those play styles directly contradict each other.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Casuals try to avoid any stress in games and don't care whether they are effective or not.
    Casuals aren't be farmers as those play styles directly contradict each other.

    And here is where we disagree. You don't need to be effective to be a farmer, most of the meta events that are being farmed are completely brainless. There is no requirement to do the farm as efficiently as possible, just following a blob and pressing 1 on your keyboard is enough. There is zero stress or any kind of effectiveness required.

    Let me get this now. Raiders are a minority, let's say this is argument is true. On the other hand the argument that casuals are the majority directly conflicts with reality, as this non-raider, non-casual (by your definition) type of player is what keeps the game alive and active, by filling a few maps with people, while in the rest of the maps you'll be hard pressed to find lots of players. So either all the casuals (by your definition) stopped playing or play so rarely that are barely noticeable in-game, so who cares about them.

    The "majority of the game's players are casual" argument is in serious trouble if you only identify casuals as those that neither deal with harder content, nor deal with any kind of farm.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    Someone is grossly overestimating casual farming.

    It's not about doing it easily, it's about having a much easier time than raiders. At least those farmers get way more gold than Raiders will ever hope to.

    Casual farmers? Not even close. You're talking about very hardcore farming here - and that also is a niche.

    Also, i don't remember even a single case where class balance got affected in any way because of farmers. Even the infamous guard lootstick change was due to WvW, not it being a good farming weapon.

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    The post in question is simply a player who wants the top tier rewards from PvE content without having to do the top tier content.

    The game once had an idea that we shouldn;t funnel players toward some content designated as "endgame" (or "top tier"), and that we should decide for ourselves what should our engame be. How far have we fallen since then...

    (hint: the mere fact that you believe there's something that is a "top tier content", and that it's the only content entitled to "top tier rewards" is something i perceive as a problem. As i see it, this game should not support that way of thinking)

    Yes. You've been clear in the past that you believe there should be a path to Legendary Armor by pressing 1 on Karka Queen and Fire Elemental. I find your argument weak , rhetoric false and your tone unhealthy.
    I won't engage you on it.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The "majority of the game's players are casual" argument is in serious trouble if you only identify casuals as those that neither deal with harder content, nor deal with any kind of farm.

    I see way more people doing map completion and diddling in non-meta events than I see people farming meta-events or doing SW.
    On some days, I even see more guild event participants than farmers.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The "majority of the game's players are casual" argument is in serious trouble if you only identify casuals as those that neither deal with harder content, nor deal with any kind of farm.

    I see way more people doing map completion and diddling in non-meta events than I see people farming meta-events or doing SW.
    On some days, I even see more guild event participants than farmers.

    Yes and these people you speak of still earn more money then 90% of the raiding population over the week of playing their content vs raiders content.

  • avey.4201avey.4201 Member ✭✭✭

    I killed Dhuum with zerk DH with an 80/90 ping, people in other countries tend to have higher ping, and someone with over 100 ping will need some marauder, someone with 300+ ping may need full marauder, but that will hurt their DPS to the extent they will be kicked, or the group will very likely fail in a standard group.
    Too hard is an opinion, the ability to stay alive while holding a proper output is primarily dependent on ping, and training/practice.
    Anyone can do raids with decent ping, and training on a meta build.
    If someone lacks training, get with them outside of raid time and explain things on the golem, or tell them about the the raiders inn.
    If someone with training/practice can't raid with full glass due to the ping of being across the world, and some marauder is unacceptable then maybe the content is too hard.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You misunderstood me. It's not about the time required - there are definitely casual players that still play a lot. It's about a playing style. Farming to that extent requires a dedication that is way beyond what i would consider casual. A casual player may go and do a hour of SW, few metas , and be done for a day. He is also unlikely to continue doing the same thing day after day after day.

    An hour of SW, Istan and other big meta events will net the average casual player more gold than the average raider will get in 1 hour. If anything the lower end of raider might even get 0 gold after 1 hour of Raids. There is no chance to get nothing while farming meta events. Also, Raids are locked per week. That average casual farmer will get more rewards over a week.

    The average casual farmer doesn't exist. And the average casual player might, in fact, not get more rewards in a week than a raider gets in a full clear. You're underestimating raid rewards and overestimating income of average players.

    That is your "casual farmer".

    Let's see, we have the casual farmer that gets nothing, the hardcore raiders that get whatever Raids give, and "the rest" of the active players that play the meta events, world bosses and farm maps, keeping the game alive and active, how do you call those?

    Players that actively do all of those things mentioned by you, day after day, week after week? Minority.

    You are making a big mistake here - you assume that the people you see at every meta, world boss, etc are the same people. They aren't. You don't need people actively and often doing multiple metas and world bosses to make maps alive. All that is required is that there's a sufficient number of players doing some of those, sometimes. Remember, you don't need that many people to make the map feel alive. A single (not even full) squad would do. For some events you'd need even less.

    Let's say you have a player that spends an hour over the week on some map (and does nothing else during that week). You'd need 3500-4000 players like that to make that map seem alive every single hour for the whole week. Make that 40k of those players, and you can keep up 10 maps active.

    I sincerely hope this game has still way more than 40k players playing at least one hour per week.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 18, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You misunderstood me. It's not about the time required - there are definitely casual players that still play a lot. It's about a playing style. Farming to that extent requires a dedication that is way beyond what i would consider casual. A casual player may go and do a hour of SW, few metas , and be done for a day. He is also unlikely to continue doing the same thing day after day after day.

    An hour of SW, Istan and other big meta events will net the average casual player more gold than the average raider will get in 1 hour. If anything the lower end of raider might even get 0 gold after 1 hour of Raids. There is no chance to get nothing while farming meta events. Also, Raids are locked per week. That average casual farmer will get more rewards over a week.

    The average casual farmer doesn't exist. And the average casual player might, in fact, not get more rewards in a week than a raider gets in a full clear. You're underestimating raid rewards and overestimating income of average players.

    The majority of raiders do not full clear. The majority of raiders do not clear multiple wings per evening. If you are comparing high end raiders, of which there is maybe a couple of hundred in EU and NA, then compare them to the appropriate counterparts in open world. Hardcore farmers who are super efficient or do lucrative farms.

    Casual or less experienced raiders might clear wings 1-4 over a week, and most of those wings/bosses not in a first kill.

  • @avey.4201 said:
    I killed Dhuum with zerk DH with an 80/90 ping, people in other countries tend to have higher ping, and someone with over 100 ping will need some marauder, someone with 300+ ping may need full marauder, but that will hurt their DPS to the extent they will be kicked, or the group will very likely fail in a standard group.

    Except that you wont. If your dps is so low that you get kicked for running marauder instead of berzerker, you have bigger problems than your equipment.

  • @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    It will be much healthier for the game in the long run

    Why don't you just play FF14 endgame or become a mystic raider in WoW if GW2 is too easy for you?

    So let me get this straight:
    Since I want some challenge and speak out about it on the forums I should just go play a different game?

    You can have your challenge even in this game without making the game harder for the others. Let's say .... you can try to defeat a raid boss without weapons - only using the movement skills and the skills you can trigger without a weapon. Or you can run a raid in one of the non-meta (the famous sub-optimal) builds. Forcing yourself to perform a non-optimal rotation (you can ask advice from a casual if you have difficulties finding it). And so on.... You already have challenges. Your problem is that you want to make everybody's life harder. What was the question ..... Why you don't play FFIV or the mystic raids in WoW if you are too lazy to try new builds/rotations here in GW2?

    Please show me one video game that does not get harder the further you progress.

    You are right here. The difficulty should scale with the progress you made. But here, in GW2 the progress is ZERO. I mean, the lack of vertical progression makes the idea of increased difficulty something funny. Don;t tell me that if you change the skin of your glider - for example - you suddenly made a progress and you need a harder content?

    Casuals aren't magically turning into elitist level players. They are going to find new games.
    I don't think kicking out the majority of the player base is healthy for any game.

    But apparently you can show me the door whenever you like and that's good for the game huh?

    Well, what you suggest will affect all of the players (in a positive or negative way, who knows?). And this is something different to the suggestion for one player to find a more suited game. This is - unless you consider yourself as the majority.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    According to these forums, this so called vast majority of players doesn't want to get better, meaning they aren't a target audience of Strikes either.

    According to these forums?
    According to these forums the game will die if Super Adventure Box isnt made a year round thing.
    According to these forums a data-mined string of text about leaving a demo instance is proof that the devs are working on Season 1.
    According to these forums everyone wants more underwater content.
    According to these forums closing exploits is "nerfing a farm".
    According to these forums Arenanet is nothing but a money-grubbing group of evil masterminds who exploit gambling addiction to make their living.
    According to these forums a picture that is clearly snow is actually sea foam and proof season5 takes place in Cantha.
    According to these forums raids are not PVE content.

    These forums are utterly disconnected from in-game reality. Might not be a good idea to base any argument on things that are said here.

    LOL? Your suggestions are made on the Forum. That means that - according to your own statements - you are utterly disconnected from the in-game reality. And still, you made suggestions. I only hope no dev. will take you seriously. Because of how aware of the GW2 reality you are (according to your own statements).

    @yusayu.3629 said:
    Change my mind.

    You can change your mind. You can keep your original opinion. No matter for me. Because, before you, ANet excluded me from their target audience for raids - by their statements that the Raids are " ... only for the ... " of the players. Well, I don't know how you react, but I see this as a tentative of bribery. I never considered myself different from the other players playing the same game. By accepting this offer I will place myself in a group/community considering themselves different. The theory of "the chosen" leads to excesses. We can feel the toxicity already.

    I will not change my opinion (even if Anet will release raids solo-able) unless I will see a statement regarding the raids and the difficulty of the raids without the words ...only for .... Something like ..." a very difficult content, where a lot of skill, dedication and patience is needed for success". Something where you cannot see the famos "only for".

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You misunderstood me. It's not about the time required - there are definitely casual players that still play a lot. It's about a playing style. Farming to that extent requires a dedication that is way beyond what i would consider casual. A casual player may go and do a hour of SW, few metas , and be done for a day. He is also unlikely to continue doing the same thing day after day after day.

    An hour of SW, Istan and other big meta events will net the average casual player more gold than the average raider will get in 1 hour. If anything the lower end of raider might even get 0 gold after 1 hour of Raids. There is no chance to get nothing while farming meta events. Also, Raids are locked per week. That average casual farmer will get more rewards over a week.

    The average casual farmer doesn't exist. And the average casual player might, in fact, not get more rewards in a week than a raider gets in a full clear. You're underestimating raid rewards and overestimating income of average players.

    The majority of raiders do not full clear. The majority of raiders do not clear multiple wings per evening. If you are comparing high end raiders, of which there is maybe a couple of hundred in EU and NA, then compare them to the appropriate counterparts in open world. Hardcore farmers who are super efficient or do lucrative farms.

    Casual or less experienced raiders might clear wings 1-4 over a week, and most of those wings/bosses not in a first kill.

    That's a fair point. Especially now, with 7 wings on the menu.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

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