Thief permastealth is nerfed in this upcoming patch — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Thief permastealth is nerfed in this upcoming patch

flyingplanet.6912flyingplanet.6912 Member ✭✭
edited February 7, 2020 in WvW

There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

Comments

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    I'll take it.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    But you could run around with 2 thiefs and archive the same as before. 🧐

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Tbh I wouldn't bother trying to appease people here OP. The smoke screen nerf is reasonable, it's a very strong skill so going from 20s to 28s traited CD is a good move imo, but most of the people who dislike steal would only be happy if it was removed outright. It's a pointless argument.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • The issue with Shadowmeld is that it has '-Reveal'...It's a counter-to-the-counter, which I just believe shouldn't exist. If they truly want to go back to basics and address this power creep, they also need to address these micro "counter-to-counters" type of skills.

    It's like if they made a '-Cleanse' counter which negates all condi cleanses on someone for a certain amount of time, but instead the best healer in the game has an elite skill that's literally just a 'Cleanse' and straight-up says it ignores all '-Cleanse' debuffs. It's also has a 2 count use.

    Like, what's the point of adding in the counter, to begin with, if you're going exclusively give counters-to-the-counter to some and not others?

    I honestly think Thief should remain as a high-skill, high-reward type of class, but '-Reveal' should be completely removed from the game. I honestly never had an issue with the overall stealthing of a Thief, it's just that if your going to create a specific counter that's literally intended to be used at specific times to punish a specific type of class, there shouldn't exist a simple 1-button, double-use COUNTER TO THAT.

    end of rant

  • Honestly, the ideal class design would be that the stealth classes had not the biggest burst damages, and the classes who you could see coming from far away where the ones with the big hammer. It doesn't make sense to give enormous hits to classes that can do it from stealth and disappear right after.

    Just last night i was hit for 18k insta death from someone in stealth i never even saw him in the middle of 5 other guys i was standing.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    Ikr? You can get "perma" stealth with smoke field, shadows trait +1 seconds to stealth, and hitting a heal for the stealth proc. Of course, fill in any gaps with black powder and the heart seeker that you would already have anyway. Don't even need to be Deadeye or even spec for the deception cooldown. I don't personally care for shadow refuge but that also doesn't require Deadeye either.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • flyingplanet.6912flyingplanet.6912 Member ✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    I don't think you get why perma stealth became problem in the first place. It was problematic because thieves can do high burst damage + escape utility skills + perma stealth. You will not be able to win fights by filling the entire skill set with stealth skills. (especially against classes that have reveal skill.)

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Doesnt thief have other combo fields and stealth than this?

    I mean if they have 150% perma-stealth now and it gets heavily nerfed to 100% perma-stealth its not that much difference.

    The only other Smoke Field thief has is Black Powder, which costs 6 initiative. Youre not going to be able to make up for the increased cooldown with it. And no, thats literally all utility skills that give Stealth. Im not sure how you expect thief to get more stealth given that you can only have 5 of them in the first place.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loffels.5934 said:
    The issue with Shadowmeld is that it has '-Reveal'...It's a counter-to-the-counter, which I just believe shouldn't exist. If they truly want to go back to basics and address this power creep, they also need to address these micro "counter-to-counters" type of skills.

    It's like if they made a '-Cleanse' counter which negates all condi cleanses on someone for a certain amount of time, but instead the best healer in the game has an elite skill that's literally just a 'Cleanse' and straight-up says it ignores all '-Cleanse' debuffs. It's also has a 2 count use.

    Like, what's the point of adding in the counter, to begin with, if you're going exclusively give counters-to-the-counter to some and not others?

    I honestly think Thief should remain as a high-skill, high-reward type of class, but '-Reveal' should be completely removed from the game. I honestly never had an issue with the overall stealthing of a Thief, it's just that if your going to create a specific counter that's literally intended to be used at specific times to punish a specific type of class, there shouldn't exist a simple 1-button, double-use COUNTER TO THAT.

    end of rant

    You mean, like how Resistance can be corrupted or boonripped by condi attacks, blocks can be ignored by unblockable attacks and even evades can be ignored but unevadable attacks (that exist for some godforsaken reason)? Meld is hardly the first skill like this.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    Ikr? You can get "perma" stealth with smoke field, shadows trait +1 seconds to stealth, and hitting a heal for the stealth proc. Of course, fill in any gaps with black powder and the heart seeker that you would already have anyway. Don't even need to be Deadeye or even spec for the deception cooldown. I don't personally care for shadow refuge but that also doesn't require Deadeye either.

    D:

    Fun fact: Meld with Shadows does not work on combo finishers. So dropping a Smokefield and spamming Heartseeker will give you the same amount of Stealth, whether you run Shadow Arts, or dont run Shadow Arts. Its uh, nowhere near enough for permastealth.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2020

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    I don't think you get why perma stealth became problem in the first place. It was problematic because thieves can do high burst damage + escape utility skills + perma stealth. You will not be able to win fights by filling the entire skill set with stealth skills. (especially against classes that have reveal skill.)

    Okay, so what about permastealth thiefs with portals in objectives? Especially on Desert Border where the keeps are huge.

    Most complaints about perma stealth thief in WvW are not centered around 1v1, which is a niche game mode within a niche game mode. Most complaints are centered around the unhealthy interaction which is giving a portal to a class which can easily permastealth in objectives. I fail to see how this is getting addressed.

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    I don't think you get why perma stealth became problem in the first place. It was problematic because thieves can do high burst damage + escape utility skills + perma stealth. You will not be able to win fights by filling the entire skill set with stealth skills. (especially against classes that have reveal skill.)

    You don't have to fill the utility bar, you just have to take Shadow Arts and manage cooldowns.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    Ikr? You can get "perma" stealth with smoke field, shadows trait +1 seconds to stealth, and hitting a heal for the stealth proc. Of course, fill in any gaps with black powder and the heart seeker that you would already have anyway. Don't even need to be Deadeye or even spec for the deception cooldown. I don't personally care for shadow refuge but that also doesn't require Deadeye either.

    D:

    Fun fact: Meld with Shadows does not work on combo finishers. So dropping a Smokefield and spamming Heartseeker will give you the same amount of Stealth, whether you run Shadow Arts, or dont run Shadow Arts. Its uh, nowhere near enough for permastealth.

    Oh neat they nerfed that back in July of last year. So I have been able to get "perma" stealth with that being true on base thief? So yes you are right the +1 second doesn't work on combo fields, but it still applies to shadow refuge (no need), concealing restoration, and (if you so choose) hide in shadows. Furthermore, you are still gaining the +1 initiative every 3 seconds if you choose the Shadow's Rejuvenation while stealthed (so you can spam heartseeker 1 or 2 times more) in addition to your normal rate of initiative. Although I have never tried the newer updates of those other two shadow traits, as they looked like dookie. Hidden Thief would help further of course, and I don't deny Deadeye makes perma stealth waaaaayeeee easier (for example: rifle smoke field is cheaper than black powder, roll for that tiny stealth, and their elite grants stealth while clearing revealed).

    You can maintain "permastealth" with the shadow trait, trickery trait, + w.e trait. Using withdraw (yes, that's not even a stealth skill!) to proc +3 stealth from concealing restoration, smoke screen + heart seeker to get 12 to 14 secs of stealth, or heartseeker + black powder for 6 secs of stealth. I don't know how much more "near" permastealth you want. Again my point was that currently you don't need half of what the OP has for just permastealth, so the balance update will nerf what I presented. If you wanted an order for this short list to test for yourself then do Smoke screen combo (+14) , withdraw (+3), let it tick down to 5ish seconds of stealth to where initiative maxes out then do black powder combo (+6), then at 3-5ish seconds of stealth repeat. If the goal was just permastealth this is the bare minimum. Should you use this for actual engagements? Prolly not. But I'm operating under the goal was just "permastealth." Deadeye's trait allows them to engage back into some form of stealth loop much easier than base thief of course, so they're more practical for combat while having high stealth uptime.

    TLDR: I'm assuming the point of the person I was re-quoting was that even after the nerf of cooldowns "permastealth" thieves can still exist with the abilities/traits that the OP presented. I was suggesting it currently existed without half of what the OP had. So in theory the balance update should make "permastealth" harder for non-deadeyes, while still a little harder for Deadeyes. Did this help you understand what I was saying? I have a habit of not explaining enough.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My WvW kitten build runs about 70% stealth uptime. Losing 2 seconds isnt a huge thing (I also swap to DPS perma stealth at times). This change wont break perma stealth uptime.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    GW2 WvW forum gets about the same reaction to anything thief related as WvW threads on the Reddit sub, there's really no reason to bother OP, especially before the changes and there's really no need.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • I think the only way to remove perma stealth is to tie it to a resource that drains overtime like endurance. Make stealth start to consume endurance over time if a player is in stealth for longer than 3 seconds and reveal them once endurance runs out. That way players who use stealth the way it was intended (as a combat mechanic during fights) won't get punished and those that abuse perma stealth to reset fights and get cooldowns and hide in keeps to portal people in will be punished by having their endurance drained. I don't think messing with cooldowns and traits is a good idea to reduce stealth. It may seem like a good idea now but in the future when they introduce new content and add new stealth skills it will just be broken again since there will be extra stealth skills in the rotation.

  • imo stealth should've been relegated to profession mechanics and maybe an elite skill from the get go.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    I don't think you get why perma stealth became problem in the first place. It was problematic because thieves can do high burst damage + escape utility skills + perma stealth. You will not be able to win fights by filling the entire skill set with stealth skills. (especially against classes that have reveal skill.)

    In that picture I see a heal that cleanses damaging conditions, a stunbreak that blinds, a projectile block and a reveal counter right next to the perma stealth utility with increased movement speed and lowered cooldowns. Movement impairing condition ignoring teleports can be found on the weapons. So what on earth are you talking about?

    Thief in its current state is 100% cancer.

    I mean is this a joke? Look at the picture and think about someone using it to defend the balance patch which changes nothing regarding the problem. Pure comedy.

  • cobbah.3102cobbah.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    Just delete thief , problem solved.

  • Give Warclaw SNIFF reveal that lasts for 15 seconds and reduce its recharge to 25 seconds.

    Remove ability to cleanse ‘revealed’ from shadow meld.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @cobbah.3102 said:
    Just delete thief , problem solved.

    delete Stealth across the board; simple as that

  • @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @cobbah.3102 said:
    Just delete thief , problem solved.

    delete Stealth across the board; simple as that

    So what defensive buffs will you give to thief to make up for losing stealth, as well as nullifying almost an entire traitline for the class?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Slight hp increase, DD gets 4 dodges and core 3. Every third dodge gives 2 secs evasion after dodge as a thief mechanic. Swipe increase to 900 range.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Slight hp increase, DD gets 4 dodges and core 3. Every third dodge gives 2 secs evasion after dodge as a thief mechanic. Swipe increase to 900 range.

    Yes, please! I want to spam vault/dodge with impunity having energy/stamina sigils equipped. This change will make zerg vault spammers great again!

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So what defensive buffs will you give to thief to make up for losing stealth, as well as nullifying almost an entire traitline for the class?

    I dunno maybe use your dodge to actually dodge damage, like thieves keep telling everyone to use, instead of dodging for stealth. There are other defense mechanics in the game, there's classes that actually have to play without stealth and avoid damage. Traitlines can easily be rewritten, they already did it to guards and warriors necros in the past year, necros even got a new mechanic out of it. But I suppose thieves play in stealth so much and can easily avoid dealing with other stealth they really wouldn't give two figs how annoyingly broken the whole mechanic is to the rest of the game.

    ^ Another derailing post ^ - Anet
    "Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs." - Thieves
    "There's no power creep, you just don't recognize more people hitting you." - Flat Earther

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:
    Honestly, the ideal class design would be that the stealth classes had not the biggest burst damages, and the classes who you could see coming from far away where the ones with the big hammer. It doesn't make sense to give enormous hits to classes that can do it from stealth and disappear right after.

    Just last night i was hit for 18k insta death from someone in stealth i never even saw him in the middle of 5 other guys i was standing.

    You only get backstabbed like that if you run a glass build, on any nonglass build ive never been oneshot.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    Ikr? You can get "perma" stealth with smoke field, shadows trait +1 seconds to stealth, and hitting a heal for the stealth proc. Of course, fill in any gaps with black powder and the heart seeker that you would already have anyway. Don't even need to be Deadeye or even spec for the deception cooldown. I don't personally care for shadow refuge but that also doesn't require Deadeye either.

    D:

    Fun fact: Meld with Shadows does not work on combo finishers. So dropping a Smokefield and spamming Heartseeker will give you the same amount of Stealth, whether you run Shadow Arts, or dont run Shadow Arts. Its uh, nowhere near enough for permastealth.

    Oh neat they nerfed that back in July of last year. So I have been able to get "perma" stealth with that being true on base thief? So yes you are right the +1 second doesn't work on combo fields, but it still applies to shadow refuge (no need), concealing restoration, and (if you so choose) hide in shadows. Furthermore, you are still gaining the +1 initiative every 3 seconds if you choose the Shadow's Rejuvenation while stealthed (so you can spam heartseeker 1 or 2 times more) in addition to your normal rate of initiative. Although I have never tried the newer updates of those other two shadow traits, as they looked like dookie. Hidden Thief would help further of course, and I don't deny Deadeye makes perma stealth waaaaayeeee easier (for example: rifle smoke field is cheaper than black powder, roll for that tiny stealth, and their elite grants stealth while clearing revealed).

    You can maintain "permastealth" with the shadow trait, trickery trait, + w.e trait. Using withdraw (yes, that's not even a stealth skill!) to proc +3 stealth from concealing restoration, smoke screen + heart seeker to get 12 to 14 secs of stealth, or heartseeker + black powder for 6 secs of stealth. I don't know how much more "near" permastealth you want. Again my point was that currently you don't need half of what the OP has for just permastealth, so the balance update will nerf what I presented. If you wanted an order for this short list to test for yourself then do Smoke screen combo (+14) , withdraw (+3), let it tick down to 5ish seconds of stealth to where initiative maxes out then do black powder combo (+6), then at 3-5ish seconds of stealth repeat. If the goal was just permastealth this is the bare minimum. Should you use this for actual engagements? Prolly not. But I'm operating under the goal was just "permastealth." Deadeye's trait allows them to engage back into some form of stealth loop much easier than base thief of course, so they're more practical for combat while having high stealth uptime.

    TLDR: I'm assuming the point of the person I was re-quoting was that even after the nerf of cooldowns "permastealth" thieves can still exist with the abilities/traits that the OP presented. I was suggesting it currently existed without half of what the OP had. So in theory the balance update should make "permastealth" harder for non-deadeyes, while still a little harder for Deadeyes. Did this help you understand what I was saying? I have a habit of not explaining enough.

    D:

    They never nerfed that. At no point in the games history did Shadow Meld ever affect combo finishers. It always specified that it only affects skills. And well, thats why it affects Shadow Refuge. Though Ill say this, at this point Shadow Refuge is so bad outside of permastealth builds, that it should probably be reworked. The fact that stealth (especially with the recent changes to SA) basically leaves you defenseless means a skill that lets your opponent know where you are while youre stealthing up just becomes an invitation to be destroyed. No idea what youd rework it to, though.

    Yeah but thats the thing, even with Shadow's Rejuvination, your initiative regen rate is below 1 per 1 second, so even with the free smoke field from Smoke Screen, you end up with a net loss of initiative vs stealth, and thats if you can cover the inbetween. Far as Im aware, you cant.

    Uh, literal permastealth? Thats what permastealth means. If its just "stealthing up for a decent amount of time", that usually means the opponent can see you stealthing up and knows where you are, which defeats the whole point of the build (which shouldnt exist, but thats neither here nor there).

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @Invictorum.7643 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @cobbah.3102 said:
    Just delete thief , problem solved.

    delete Stealth across the board; simple as that

    So what defensive buffs will you give to thief to make up for losing stealth, as well as nullifying almost an entire traitline for the class?

    it wouldn't only be Thief Profession, but including all Professions.

    -intentionally giving stealth 8 years of power to cause chaos...nothing to compensate for its loss

    -this should be enough to compensate for it

    (in fact, just this morning 8 new players quit because they've had enough of Thief Profession. These 8 players are part of large guilds in a healthy competitive game. It didn't take long for them to share their Toxic experience in twitch. Guild Wars 2 is Anti-Healthy, Anti-Competitive and it is very well deserve when especially new players suddenly leaves it. Nothing will change in the next upcoming Patch if Stealth is not dealt with or to be completely removed. Anet is fully accountable for allowing this Toxic Mechanic pushing even new player away from playing the game) Even guild wars 2 once dedicated streamers are no longer dedicated after opening their eyes of seeing how truely the game does promote and encourages Toxicity and how it continue finding any excuses to not completely address it at its core root. Most importantly, how Anet never cared about our concerns especially when it comes to us begging them when Toxicity is being exploited

    As long Anet continues defending Toxic Thief Profession and Toxic Stealth mechanics, nothing will ever change. The next patch is proof of it and that is why it is a big joke and once again, another slap on our faces for believing in it

    -take a look at this-

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    Ikr? You can get "perma" stealth with smoke field, shadows trait +1 seconds to stealth, and hitting a heal for the stealth proc. Of course, fill in any gaps with black powder and the heart seeker that you would already have anyway. Don't even need to be Deadeye or even spec for the deception cooldown. I don't personally care for shadow refuge but that also doesn't require Deadeye either.

    D:

    Fun fact: Meld with Shadows does not work on combo finishers. So dropping a Smokefield and spamming Heartseeker will give you the same amount of Stealth, whether you run Shadow Arts, or dont run Shadow Arts. Its uh, nowhere near enough for permastealth.

    Oh neat they nerfed that back in July of last year. So I have been able to get "perma" stealth with that being true on base thief? So yes you are right the +1 second doesn't work on combo fields, but it still applies to shadow refuge (no need), concealing restoration, and (if you so choose) hide in shadows. Furthermore, you are still gaining the +1 initiative every 3 seconds if you choose the Shadow's Rejuvenation while stealthed (so you can spam heartseeker 1 or 2 times more) in addition to your normal rate of initiative. Although I have never tried the newer updates of those other two shadow traits, as they looked like dookie. Hidden Thief would help further of course, and I don't deny Deadeye makes perma stealth waaaaayeeee easier (for example: rifle smoke field is cheaper than black powder, roll for that tiny stealth, and their elite grants stealth while clearing revealed).

    You can maintain "permastealth" with the shadow trait, trickery trait, + w.e trait. Using withdraw (yes, that's not even a stealth skill!) to proc +3 stealth from concealing restoration, smoke screen + heart seeker to get 12 to 14 secs of stealth, or heartseeker + black powder for 6 secs of stealth. I don't know how much more "near" permastealth you want. Again my point was that currently you don't need half of what the OP has for just permastealth, so the balance update will nerf what I presented. If you wanted an order for this short list to test for yourself then do Smoke screen combo (+14) , withdraw (+3), let it tick down to 5ish seconds of stealth to where initiative maxes out then do black powder combo (+6), then at 3-5ish seconds of stealth repeat. If the goal was just permastealth this is the bare minimum. Should you use this for actual engagements? Prolly not. But I'm operating under the goal was just "permastealth." Deadeye's trait allows them to engage back into some form of stealth loop much easier than base thief of course, so they're more practical for combat while having high stealth uptime.

    TLDR: I'm assuming the point of the person I was re-quoting was that even after the nerf of cooldowns "permastealth" thieves can still exist with the abilities/traits that the OP presented. I was suggesting it currently existed without half of what the OP had. So in theory the balance update should make "permastealth" harder for non-deadeyes, while still a little harder for Deadeyes. Did this help you understand what I was saying? I have a habit of not explaining enough.

    D:

    They never nerfed that. At no point in the games history did Shadow Meld ever affect combo finishers. It always specified that it only affects skills. And well, thats why it affects Shadow Refuge. Though Ill say this, at this point Shadow Refuge is so bad outside of permastealth builds, that it should probably be reworked. The fact that stealth (especially with the recent changes to SA) basically leaves you defenseless means a skill that lets your opponent know where you are while youre stealthing up just becomes an invitation to be destroyed. No idea what youd rework it to, though.

    For the 14 to 16 seconds of stealth that it gives you on a 60 second cooldown (untraited)? Yeah idk if I like that. I mean you can reset the fight if you're losing, but the chance of being knocked out into a reveal is also a down side. Whereas smokescreen at least blocks ranged projectiles, and blinds melee with a shorter cooldown (albeit you need the initiative for the stealth combo). So yeah shadow refuge is a bit dated unless you are indeed going for the perma stealth kitten.

    Yeah but thats the thing, even with Shadow's Rejuvination, your initiative regen rate is below 1 per 1 second, so even with the free smoke field from Smoke Screen, you end up with a net loss of initiative vs stealth, and thats if you can cover the inbetween. Far as Im aware, you cant.

    Uh, literal permastealth? Thats what permastealth means. If its just "stealthing up for a decent amount of time", that usually means the opponent can see you stealthing up and knows where you are, which defeats the whole point of the build (which shouldnt exist, but thats neither here nor there).

    Ahhh now I know what you mean. While the above combo technically let's you have the effect of "stealth" indefinitely (which is what I considered "perma stealth"), you add on that the enemy's are also completely unaware of the general position for longer periods of time (things like shadow refuge/smoke fields broadcast would conversely tell locations of the stealth player).

    I think a simple fix is to give the current subtle stealth skills a larger tell if you want it along the lines of shadow refuge/smoke fields by letting others know the general location. This also includes the stealth gained from traits. Whereas now it's a brief dark swirl at best for such things.

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    All of which take up a utility slot. This forces the char to give up damage potential or utility in exchange for high stealth. You can talk about the numbers, but this does help enforce a fairly hefty tradeoff at a mechanical level.

  • Xenash.1245Xenash.1245 Member ✭✭✭

    For the love of everything you can either tell the op why he's wrong by providing your own examples or you can just continue to just post pointless back and forth attacks on each other for your opinions.

    The op came here with his own opinion and math on the nerfs and regardless if he's wrong or not he's shown something, don't just pointlessly tell him again and again that he's wrong just give your own examples so that we can hopefully have a constructive conversation here.

  • Rod.6581Rod.6581 Member ✭✭✭

    Since they've improved their engine and visuals, I'd just change stealth from constant 0% visibility to pulsing between 0% and 50%.

  • cobbah.3102cobbah.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    @Invictorum.7643 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @cobbah.3102 said:
    Just delete thief , problem solved.

    delete Stealth across the board; simple as that

    So what defensive buffs will you give to thief to make up for losing stealth, as well as nullifying almost an entire traitline for the class?

    Hmm thief can get all the buffs in PVE

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think after all these yrs it's pretty clear what anets vision and stance on stealth is at least regarding thief so no topic pls, time to move on. Getting pretty old.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I think after all these yrs it's pretty clear what anets vision and stance on stealth is at least regarding thief so no topic pls, time to move on. Getting pretty old.

    'A vision is successful when it “speaks” to a wide audience, tells an engaging story that people want to be a part of, challenges people, and creates a sense of urgency. Success occurs when the vision becomes embedded in the daily decisions and actions taken of those you want to lead. A vision is not merely an extended strategic plan or “mission.” When we see a vision that is working, guiding an organization to sustained growth, we know that behind it are leaders who are comfortable leading with their hearts as well as their heads'

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @flyingplanet.6912 said:

    There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.
    In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
    1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
    2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
    3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

    then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.
    And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.
    So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.
    I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.
    If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

    You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

    This doesn't kill perm stealth.

    All of which take up a utility slot. This forces the char to give up damage potential or utility in exchange for high stealth. You can talk about the numbers, but this does help enforce a fairly hefty tradeoff at a mechanical level.

    Stealth synergizes with traits and weapon skills to give.....utility, damage, and sustain. It's true if you take the stealth you don't take something else, but stealth isn't just stealth.