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  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    I don't know man.

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    This means before you finally died you managed to survive 180k damage from burning. Does that really sound super effective ? You'll never see power damage numbers in the death log this high due to the nature of the damage type, being instant.

    I'd be more interested if this had much lower amount of burning but you still died which means you really got bursted.

    My other issue with the death breakdown is all you know is burning is what killed you but it doesn't break down top skills that applied the burning.

    It's very misleading.

    Well, a Burn Guard "burst" is maybe tops 4-5k burning ticks with 1.5-3k sustained burn ticks. To most classes just say a 1.7k constant condi tick probably constitutes a burst because they don't have all that Necro HP to soak it with. As a condition burning definitely does need a nerf.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 they could make a hit log on the side like they did with gw1. then you know what you died to. they also should count in the attributes of the players. but in gw1 you can also take a ton more dmg you have health, that's because the log documents everything til the end of the fight. so you can get heals during the fight and be back at full health and you still gonna see the skills used on you prior. so it can be common during long fights in gw1 to have 15-40 stacks of the same skill on you before you die. even if the skill got a 8 sec cd. maybe my nostaliga is a bit misleading me a bit, but I know it is somewhere in this area.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    How are you getting 9k?

    mesmers torch burns for 3,5k. 1 stack for 9s.
    zealots does 4 stacks for 2s, so that equales 1 stack for 8s.
    on top of flip skill 3stacks for 3s = 1 stack for 9s, that already equals 17s burn if it was 1 stack. quick math thats 6,7k burn.
    add in power dmg, and radiant fire bonus burn duration and here ya go. about 9k, depending on the rune it could be much more, on mesmer im using hybrid.
    with balthazar I could see it being about 11-12k dmg over all if everything lands.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    @Aktium.9506 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    This means before you finally died you managed to survive 180k damage from burning. Does that really sound super effective ? You'll never see power damage numbers in the death log this high due to the nature of the damage type, being instant.

    I'd be more interested if this had much lower amount of burning but you still died which means you really got bursted.

    My other issue with the death breakdown is all you know is burning is what killed you but it doesn't break down top skills that applied the burning.

    It's very misleading.

    Well, a Burn Guard "burst" is maybe tops 4-5k burning ticks with 1.5-3k sustained burn ticks. To most classes just say a 1.7k constant condi tick probably constitutes a burst because they don't have all that Necro HP to soak it with. As a condition burning definitely does need a nerf.

    No burning class get used for Top tournaments or wvw zergs or pve end game...in all three of them..necromancer reign supreme and the devs noticed it, do you really think that forum "feedback" is all the devs use to balance the game?
    Tomorrow @Cmc will talk about pvp/wvw...it'll be fun to see him talking about scourge zergs in wvw or double core necro in pvp or reapers for pve end game

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aktium.9506 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    I don't know man.

    the only thing we can get from this screenshot is that each tick on average did 3400.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    How are you getting 9k?

    mesmers torch burns for 3,5k. 1 stack for 9s.
    zealots does 4 stacks for 2s, so that equales 1 stack for 8s.
    on top of flip skill 3stacks for 3s = 1 stack for 9s, that already equals 17s burn if it was 1 stack. quick math thats 6,7k burn.
    add in power dmg, and radiant fire bonus burn duration and here ya go. about 9k, depending on the rune it could be much more, on mesmer im using hybrid.
    with balthazar I could see it being about 11-12k dmg over all if everything lands.

    Ok but you're comparing a pure damage skill / weapon to one that does other effects and it more utility( blind, stealth). Not only that but you would have to stand near on directly on top of someone for 3s as well as making sure to hit the flip skill shot, which removes the passive effect.

    I get what you're doing but something can look strong on paper but in practical application be nowhere near as powerful.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    pretty much yeah. they definently should rework these logs. I don't use them myself, because I find them less useful than the ones in gw1. in gw1 I use them mostly to see which builds the opponents are using and switch skills appropriately. but that isn't really possible

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    How are you getting 9k?

    mesmers torch burns for 3,5k. 1 stack for 9s.
    zealots does 4 stacks for 2s, so that equales 1 stack for 8s.
    on top of flip skill 3stacks for 3s = 1 stack for 9s, that already equals 17s burn if it was 1 stack. quick math thats 6,7k burn.
    add in power dmg, and radiant fire bonus burn duration and here ya go. about 9k, depending on the rune it could be much more, on mesmer im using hybrid.
    with balthazar I could see it being about 11-12k dmg over all if everything lands.

    Ok but you're comparing a pure damage skill / weapon to one that does other effects and it more utility( blind, stealth). Not only that but you would have to stand near on directly on top of someone for 3s as well as making sure to hit the flip skill shot, which removes the passive effect.

    I get what you're doing but something can look strong on paper but in practical application be nowhere near as powerful.

    and then torch 4 can be easy dodged, its 1 hit not 4 spread over, you dont have to dodge it 4 times to negate the damage, expecially since you have 3s heads up, and 2x the cooldown. its all a trade off.
    look at it from a different angle, if you miss half the hits you still deal more dmg then any mesmer torch skill, on half the cooldown and with questionable cast time.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Aktium.9506 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    I don't know man.

    the only thing we can get from this screenshot is that each tick on average did 3400.

    Only thing I have notice is that dmg requires over 12 stacks of burning and knowing how the burn guard and how the typical necro player think...I'd say @Aktium.9506 was taking a nap inside purging flame, never tried to dodge/interrupt/blind spear of justice and generally just facetanking everything on his core necro build having lost the urge to actually dodge something...necro players are not used to dodging, at least a good 80% of them.

    Nobody in this game can take that much burning dmg unless they're facetanking everything without dodging anything ...this draws a clear picture of the skill level involved

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    How are you getting 9k?

    mesmers torch burns for 3,5k. 1 stack for 9s.
    zealots does 4 stacks for 2s, so that equales 1 stack for 8s.
    on top of flip skill 3stacks for 3s = 1 stack for 9s, that already equals 17s burn if it was 1 stack. quick math thats 6,7k burn.
    add in power dmg, and radiant fire bonus burn duration and here ya go. about 9k, depending on the rune it could be much more, on mesmer im using hybrid.
    with balthazar I could see it being about 11-12k dmg over all if everything lands.

    Ok but you're comparing a pure damage skill / weapon to one that does other effects and it more utility( blind, stealth). Not only that but you would have to stand near on directly on top of someone for 3s as well as making sure to hit the flip skill shot, which removes the passive effect.

    I get what you're doing but something can look strong on paper but in practical application be nowhere near as powerful.

    and then torch 4 can be easy dodged, its 1 hit not 4 spread over, you dont have to dodge it 4 times to negate the damage, expecially since you have 3s heads up, and 2x the cooldown. its all a trade off.
    look at it from a different angle, if you miss half the hits you still deal more dmg then any mesmer torch skill, on half the cooldown and with questionable cast time.

    You have the same 3s prep time if you want to get the most out of torch 4 on guard. Using the flip skill ends the effect on you and it has a really obvious animation and wind up. And again all it does is damage. It has 0 utility compared to mesmer torch.

    There's more to skills than how much damage they do...

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    How are you getting 9k?

    mesmers torch burns for 3,5k. 1 stack for 9s.
    zealots does 4 stacks for 2s, so that equales 1 stack for 8s.
    on top of flip skill 3stacks for 3s = 1 stack for 9s, that already equals 17s burn if it was 1 stack. quick math thats 6,7k burn.
    add in power dmg, and radiant fire bonus burn duration and here ya go. about 9k, depending on the rune it could be much more, on mesmer im using hybrid.
    with balthazar I could see it being about 11-12k dmg over all if everything lands.

    Ok but you're comparing a pure damage skill / weapon to one that does other effects and it more utility( blind, stealth). Not only that but you would have to stand near on directly on top of someone for 3s as well as making sure to hit the flip skill shot, which removes the passive effect.

    I get what you're doing but something can look strong on paper but in practical application be nowhere near as powerful.

    and then torch 4 can be easy dodged, its 1 hit not 4 spread over, you dont have to dodge it 4 times to negate the damage, expecially since you have 3s heads up, and 2x the cooldown. its all a trade off.
    look at it from a different angle, if you miss half the hits you still deal more dmg then any mesmer torch skill, on half the cooldown and with questionable cast time.

    You have the same 3s prep time if you want to get the most out of torch 4 on guard. Using the flip skill ends the effect on you and it has a really obvious animation and wind up. And again all it does is damage. It has 0 utility compared to mesmer torch.

    There's more to skills than how much damage they do...

    ofc, but the fact remains that this is kill button on 15s cd. with the ammout of CC flying around it does too much damage.
    they gotta adress the CC first and see how it goes, doubt they will do a good job with their track record :D
    btw I would trade any torch skill for it any day on mesmer, even if it had 30s cd

  • Aktium.9506Aktium.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    No burning class

    The heck is a Burning class? Pretty much every class except Thief has at some point had a condi or hybrid build where Burning was used to a greater extent. From the top of my head it was the old Spirit Ranger's Sun Spirit alongside old Dhuumfire Necro and then it was Condi Engi for a while before the Cele Meta kicked into full shift and we had Shoutbow Warrs getting most of their pressure from Burning same with Cele D/D. The latter only got more stupid after Burning became stackable in the later pre-HoT times. And then we had that one condi Skullcrack Berserker that ran rampant in HoT for a time.

    Burn Guard has on and off always been a thing and we always had that one guy in Plat~Leggy on EU that has basically been running Burn Guard as long as I can remember. Also, I don't think the build and it's variation is in any way a problem in the current meta.

    In PoF we had Scourge cancering it up for real with map covering amounts of Burn and Torment and Mirage had a decent amount of Burning from Torch phantasm and staff as well mixed in with every other condi in the game prior to the nerfs. Although to be fair it was never the main problem about Mirage back then. But you'd definitely see Burning somewhere between 2nd and 4th spots of damage sources in the death recaps against Mirages.

    All I'm saying is Burning should definitely have its multipliers and base damage lowered and skills can better be adjusted by simply increasing stacks since that gives Anet more freedom in adjusting stack to better fine-tune it. As it is right now just 2-3 stacks of maintained burning from a condi build are going to hurt and it's going to be a problem with any future build as well. It would alleviate the problem at least to some extent if individual Burning stacks did less damage.

    And just so you know, just because I mentioned Thief being the only class that hasn't had a build that abused Burning I can absolutely guarantee you that it's now going to be a thing in the Cantha xpac. I'm calling it.

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I'd say @Aktium.9506 was taking a nap inside purging flame, never tried to dodge/interrupt/blind spear of justice and generally just facetanking everything on his core necro build having lost the urge to actually dodge something...necro players are not used to dodging, at least a good 80% of them.

    Nobody in this game can take that much burning dmg unless they're facetanking everything without dodging anything ...this draws a clear picture of the skill level involved

    Now now, that's just not true. I use my dodge sometimes to spawn Lesser Mark of Blood =)

  • mes.4607mes.4607 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When you can't cleanse 11 burning... You feel it

    How the heck do I get 5 stars?
  • mes.4607mes.4607 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All conditions need to be re-examined. Looking at you, torment!

    How the heck do I get 5 stars?
  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    Best way to nerf Burning is to make Expertise no longer affect it.

    Burning was designed to deal heavy DoT, but over a short duration of probably 1 - 2 seconds.
    What ended up happening was that Expertise allowed this heavy DoT to stack up and do damage over several seconds, which results in the problem we have right now.

    In fact, this is an Expertise problem altogether.

    Conditions should be balanced in this way :

    • Bleeding : Longest duration, stacks in intensity, perfect for consistent DoT damage.
    • Poison : Second longest duration, stacks in intensity, an alternative to Bleeding and does slightly more damage.
    • Torment and Confusion : Action based Conditions, SHOULD NOT stack in intensity, stacks in duration and should have their damage adjusted to reflect this.
    • Burning : Highest damage, shortest duration, Expertise does not affect it, or lower the scaling to 50% to benefit long duration Burn skills and render the stat useless for short duration Burns. (Stuff like Engineer Blowtorch for example, is pretty okay. Stuff like Spirit Blades stacking Burn per hit is not okay)

    Torment and Confusion should punish players for using their respective actions, but not to the point where it deletes their health with every step or skill use.
    Long, extended duration would force these players to play under these effects for much longer if they have burnt a Cleanse prior, and have their current damage increased.

    Burning should straight up not be allowed to stack to ridiculous amounts.
    Having alot of Burning is okay.
    Having alot of Burning that stacks up is not okay.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    yea but I heard a lot of condi builds avoid expertise altogether because condis gonna get cleansed frequently making it a loss of dmg

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    just doge. for real

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @choovanski.5462 said:
    imagine not playing warrior and neutering burnguard with just weapon swap

    any dude would apply burning after weapon swap, also if u are not taking filer condi sigil u arent playing burn guard

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    Even on the most meme-iest of meme burn guard builds, taking absolutely everything to increase burn damage/duration, the most you can push that to is 5k.

    It also has to hit 4 times, once per second for 4 seconds, in a radius of only 180 around the least mobile class in the game.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWgAs+lFwQYfsO2IO8KarNA-zZoCikEwZA

    People just straight-up lying now at this point, the forums are fake news.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    The fact is, that burn-guardian with Torch isn't viable above Gold. When was the last time you saw one being played seriously in a mAT?

    This is like complaining about P/P Thief burst. It's entirely academic.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    How are you getting 9k?

    mesmers torch burns for 3,5k. 1 stack for 9s.
    zealots does 4 stacks for 2s, so that equales 1 stack for 8s.
    on top of flip skill 3stacks for 3s = 1 stack for 9s, that already equals 17s burn if it was 1 stack. quick math thats 6,7k burn.
    add in power dmg, and radiant fire bonus burn duration and here ya go. about 9k, depending on the rune it could be much more, on mesmer im using hybrid.
    with balthazar I could see it being about 11-12k dmg over all if everything lands.

    Do you actually know how to play mesmer?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    Even on the most meme-iest of meme burn guard builds, taking absolutely everything to increase burn damage/duration, the most you can push that to is 6k.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWgAs+lFwQYfsO2IO8KarNA-zZoCikEwZA

    People just straight-up lying now at this point, the forums are fake news.

    you poor thing cant read, I feel bad for you XD.
    it legit does 11k burning on the build you posted, add in 1,1k power damage and you have 12k+ dmg.
    EDIT thx to you I realized it has 12s cd not 15, this ability alone has over 1k dps if used off cooldown XD

    I can read fine, you can't write.

    If you mean both the initial pulsing, and then the throw skill, you should have said so.

    I legit DID say so, you just ignored it and got upset becouse you are guardian main.
    THIS IS WHAT I WROTE

    Yeah, in a different post, written after I started to reply to the one that I actually quoted. Way to re-write history.

    Also, I've never played a build that uses Torch, because it's just that bad. They could delete the entire weapon for all the difference it makes to me. So you can take the "bias" narrative and shove it.

    5:11 PM my post.
    8:08 PM your post.
    you posted almost 3 Hours after my post. Instead of lying just admit that you didnt read everything, happens to everyone.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    Even on the most meme-iest of meme burn guard builds, taking absolutely everything to increase burn damage/duration, the most you can push that to is 6k.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWgAs+lFwQYfsO2IO8KarNA-zZoCikEwZA

    People just straight-up lying now at this point, the forums are fake news.

    you poor thing cant read, I feel bad for you XD.
    it legit does 11k burning on the build you posted, add in 1,1k power damage and you have 12k+ dmg.
    EDIT thx to you I realized it has 12s cd not 15, this ability alone has over 1k dps if used off cooldown XD

    Right, and core-mesmer can do a 12k+ burst every 12 seconds with mirrorblade+mind-wrack.

    Berserker with Arc-Divider can do it every 5 seconds.

    It doesn't make it viable anywhere above Gold.

    there is a difference between 1 ability dealing 12k dmg and several abilities dealing 12k dmg.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    How are you getting 9k?

    mesmers torch burns for 3,5k. 1 stack for 9s.
    zealots does 4 stacks for 2s, so that equales 1 stack for 8s.
    on top of flip skill 3stacks for 3s = 1 stack for 9s, that already equals 17s burn if it was 1 stack. quick math thats 6,7k burn.
    add in power dmg, and radiant fire bonus burn duration and here ya go. about 9k, depending on the rune it could be much more, on mesmer im using hybrid.
    with balthazar I could see it being about 11-12k dmg over all if everything lands.

    Do you actually know how to play mesmer?

    whats the point of this post? other then to try and throw a jab at me?
    did you get excited after dealing 26% of teams damage? whats the point you are trying to make?

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Best way to nerf Burning is to make Expertise no longer affect it.

    Burning was designed to deal heavy DoT, but over a short duration of probably 1 - 2 seconds.
    What ended up happening was that Expertise allowed this heavy DoT to stack up and do damage over several seconds, which results in the problem we have right now.

    In fact, this is an Expertise problem altogether.

    Conditions should be balanced in this way :

    • Bleeding : Longest duration, stacks in intensity, perfect for consistent DoT damage.
    • Poison : Second longest duration, stacks in intensity, an alternative to Bleeding and does slightly more damage.
    • Torment and Confusion : Action based Conditions, SHOULD NOT stack in intensity, stacks in duration and should have their damage adjusted to reflect this.
    • Burning : Highest damage, shortest duration, Expertise does not affect it, or lower the scaling to 50% to benefit long duration Burn skills and render the stat useless for short duration Burns. (Stuff like Engineer Blowtorch for example, is pretty okay. Stuff like Spirit Blades stacking Burn per hit is not okay)

    Torment and Confusion should punish players for using their respective actions, but not to the point where it deletes their health with every step or skill use.
    Long, extended duration would force these players to play under these effects for much longer if they have burnt a Cleanse prior, and have their current damage increased.

    Burning should straight up not be allowed to stack to ridiculous amounts.
    Having alot of Burning is okay.
    Having alot of Burning that stacks up is not okay.

    Post this as a separate thing, pretty nice rework.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Best way to nerf Burning is to make Expertise no longer affect it.

    Burning was designed to deal heavy DoT, but over a short duration of probably 1 - 2 seconds.
    What ended up happening was that Expertise allowed this heavy DoT to stack up and do damage over several seconds, which results in the problem we have right now.

    In fact, this is an Expertise problem altogether.

    Conditions should be balanced in this way :

    • Bleeding : Longest duration, stacks in intensity, perfect for consistent DoT damage.
    • Poison : Second longest duration, stacks in intensity, an alternative to Bleeding and does slightly more damage.
    • Torment and Confusion : Action based Conditions, SHOULD NOT stack in intensity, stacks in duration and should have their damage adjusted to reflect this.
    • Burning : Highest damage, shortest duration, Expertise does not affect it, or lower the scaling to 50% to benefit long duration Burn skills and render the stat useless for short duration Burns. (Stuff like Engineer Blowtorch for example, is pretty okay. Stuff like Spirit Blades stacking Burn per hit is not okay)

    Torment and Confusion should punish players for using their respective actions, but not to the point where it deletes their health with every step or skill use.
    Long, extended duration would force these players to play under these effects for much longer if they have burnt a Cleanse prior, and have their current damage increased.

    Burning should straight up not be allowed to stack to ridiculous amounts.
    Having alot of Burning is okay.
    Having alot of Burning that stacks up is not okay.

    Post this as a separate thing, pretty nice rework.

    The OP is a thief...you are a thief and the guy in the post you've quoted is a revenant.......if you want burning to be reworked...all conditions should be reworked. Longest duration and stacking in intensity? yeah...but your dmg must be cut down to 1/4 of current iteration.....lol condi thieves and herald/mallyx trying to be clever

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Burning is insane in all game modes. I tried fighting a wyvern in Verdant Brink the other day and it was just constant mass death.

    The thing about burning is that it's a "condition" that doesn't really give you any time to react. It does so much damage before you even have time to clear it, and if there are cover conditions then you're pretty much f'd.

    The only condition that even comes close to it I would say is poison when it's traited for the damage boost on thief, and maybe condi ranger or something.

    But yeah, I think burning definitely needs a balance pass. Or maybe a slight redesign?

    Since we already have poison and bleeding, it would be neat to see burning do less immediate damage but have a bonus proc like inherently spreading. Something that makes it behave differently than just an insane bursty condi.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think it's the condition that needs a nerd but the number of stacks someone can instantly place on you. Currently 5 stacks is too much!

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    How are you getting 9k?

    mesmers torch burns for 3,5k. 1 stack for 9s.
    zealots does 4 stacks for 2s, so that equales 1 stack for 8s.
    on top of flip skill 3stacks for 3s = 1 stack for 9s, that already equals 17s burn if it was 1 stack. quick math thats 6,7k burn.
    add in power dmg, and radiant fire bonus burn duration and here ya go. about 9k, depending on the rune it could be much more, on mesmer im using hybrid.
    with balthazar I could see it being about 11-12k dmg over all if everything lands.

    Do you actually know how to play mesmer?

    whats the point of this post? other then to try and throw a jab at me?
    did you get excited after dealing 26% of teams damage? whats the point you are trying to make?

    You're comparing mesmer torch..to guardian torch in terms of dmg/utility.....the video is self-explanatory, it looks to me as you jumped on mesmer wagon when chronobunker was a thing, your class has been surfing the high waves for the last 5 years and it was about time for the right changes to occur.

    Can't remember how many turned pro overnight after switching to chronobunker and how many became gods of 1v1 when condi mirage got introduced

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    How are you getting 9k?

    mesmers torch burns for 3,5k. 1 stack for 9s.
    zealots does 4 stacks for 2s, so that equales 1 stack for 8s.
    on top of flip skill 3stacks for 3s = 1 stack for 9s, that already equals 17s burn if it was 1 stack. quick math thats 6,7k burn.
    add in power dmg, and radiant fire bonus burn duration and here ya go. about 9k, depending on the rune it could be much more, on mesmer im using hybrid.
    with balthazar I could see it being about 11-12k dmg over all if everything lands.

    Do you actually know how to play mesmer?

    whats the point of this post? other then to try and throw a jab at me?
    did you get excited after dealing 26% of teams damage? whats the point you are trying to make?

    You're comparing mesmer torch..to guardian torch in terms of dmg/utility.....the video is self-explanatory, it looks to me as you jumped on mesmer wagon when chronobunker was a thing, your class has been surfing the high waves for the last 5 years and it was about time for the right changes to occur.

    Can't remember how many turned pro overnight after switching to chronobunker and how many became gods of 1v1 when condi mirage got introduced

    havent played chrono when it was broken, sorry to burst your bubble, joined pvp when bunker scrapper was a thing.
    direct hardcounter that made chrono bunker unplayable.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2020

    I did also enjoy the comparison of a torch skill that gives stealth, blind, blast finisher and condi-cleanse as well as burning to 5 targets, to a torch skill that does nothing but burning to 1 target.

    Are you proposing to add stealth to guardian torch and make the throw a 5-target AoE?

    Given the choice, most guardians would take mesmer torch in a heartbeat.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    you are a thief

    I don't understand rest of your glorious English but I am a mesmer main not a thief main lol

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Best way to nerf Burning is to make Expertise no longer affect it.

    Burning was designed to deal heavy DoT, but over a short duration of probably 1 - 2 seconds.
    What ended up happening was that Expertise allowed this heavy DoT to stack up and do damage over several seconds, which results in the problem we have right now.

    In fact, this is an Expertise problem altogether.

    Conditions should be balanced in this way :

    • Bleeding : Longest duration, stacks in intensity, perfect for consistent DoT damage.
    • Poison : Second longest duration, stacks in intensity, an alternative to Bleeding and does slightly more damage.
    • Torment and Confusion : Action based Conditions, SHOULD NOT stack in intensity, stacks in duration and should have their damage adjusted to reflect this.
    • Burning : Highest damage, shortest duration, Expertise does not affect it, or lower the scaling to 50% to benefit long duration Burn skills and render the stat useless for short duration Burns. (Stuff like Engineer Blowtorch for example, is pretty okay. Stuff like Spirit Blades stacking Burn per hit is not okay)

    Torment and Confusion should punish players for using their respective actions, but not to the point where it deletes their health with every step or skill use.
    Long, extended duration would force these players to play under these effects for much longer if they have burnt a Cleanse prior, and have their current damage increased.

    Burning should straight up not be allowed to stack to ridiculous amounts.
    Having alot of Burning is okay.
    Having alot of Burning that stacks up is not okay.

    LoL Yeah, having a lot of burning is okay...as long as it doesn't actually do anything, right? Sensible policies for a better GW2! Hire this guy!

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2020

    @MorgothLich.1253 said:
    I'll let the data speak for itself
    From gw2 wiki:
    Burning
    (0.155 * Condition Damage) + (1.55 * Level) + 7 damage per stack per second,
    (0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131 damage per stack per second at Level 80

    Bleeding
    (0.06 * Condition Damage) + (0.25 * Level) + 2 damage per stack per second,
    (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 damage per stack per second at level 80.

    Poison
    (0.06 * Condition Damage) + (0.375 * Level) + 3.5 damage per stack per second,
    (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 33.5 damage per stack per second at level 80.

    Torment
    While stationary (WvW and sPvP):
    (0.045 * Condition Damage) + 15.9 damage per stack per second.
    While moving:
    (0.09 * Condition Damage) + (0.36 * Level) + 3 damage per stack per second,
    (0.09 * Condition Damage) + 31.8 damage per stack per second at level 80.

    Confusion
    (0.1 * Level) + 2 damage per stack per second.
    10 damage per stack per second at level 80.
    Damage on skill activation (Player):
    (0.0975 * Condition Damage) + (0.575 * Level) + 3.5 damage per stack.
    (0.0975 * Condition Damage) + 49.5 damage per stack.

    My opinion:
    It is undeniable that burning packs the most damage of all the conditions and it can really reach too high damage in few stacks compared to the number of stack of bleeding, poison and torment. And probably a sligh nerf in coefficient would not be bad for the game.
    Does it needs to be nerfed across all classes? It would be an easy fix, but probably not the correct one. Infact the core of the argument would be how easy access does a class have to high numbers of stacks of burning? Infact would be a complete fail to reduce burning damage for classes that have very infrequent burning or with very low stacks. Probably reducing burning in stacks and frequency of reapplying it would be the way to go. This requires testing done properly considering all factors

    +1

    that's quite interesting work. Also i do agree with your opinion and this should be a healthy approach in addressing Burning Toxicity as a start. Thank You! for posting this

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    one thing tho. unlike for other condis the classes applying burning have to go in melee range. guardian with torch, weaver. necro is propably the only one together with mesmer that have ranged applications. so I dunno why you want player to get punished less when they stay in melee range.

  • pninak.1069pninak.1069 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd agree that burning fb is a bit too strong still.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2020

    Yeah it need a nerf .
    Max 8-10% of your target hp every sec
    And the damage is reduced by half , if you wear Toughness gear

    Edit: Updated Animes on sig
    Yeah , they are old ..for some reason i havent seen any after 2014 ...
    (Japanese Audio is preferable , 70% of the English Dubbed..sux with ''i want to punch in the face'' girls)
    Watch max 3 ep .... dont bother to move on if you dont like it .

    Recite from memory for every bad event

    https://aniwatcher.com/anime-list
    (where you watch most animes)

    Mr/Ms Ncsoft, the West is weakened leaving space for new games(asian too). I know the ManaWo..ggs
    used the RnD Labs as testing ground,but can you let them be alone and not DMCA their video?
    Sincerely humble Butler, willigly letting his body to be exploited , or find another master -crystal ball

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @pninak.1069 said:
    one thing tho. unlike for other condis the classes applying burning have to go in melee range. guardian with torch, weaver. necro is propably the only one together with mesmer that have ranged applications. so I dunno why you want player to get punished less when they stay in melee range.

    You ignorant comment proves that you don't know guardian mechanics at all as you have never played the class. Torch in PVP? Nice joke. Try using it and hitting anything with it without being CCed to oblivion. Honestly, l2p and cleanse -----guard has only 1 damaging condition.

  • JETWING.2759JETWING.2759 Member ✭✭✭

    Burning is not the problem... The problem is burn application by certain profession (guard).

  • Burn damage is obviously overpowered. It takes no skill to apply stacks of burn damage. It makes the current meta of the game terrible and completely unfun to play.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Aktium.9506 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    I don't know man.

    I always fine pictures like this interesting. From my understanding the death breakdown doesn't show damage from when you are downed.

    This means before you finally died you managed to survive 180k damage from burning. Does that really sound super effective ? You'll never see power damage numbers in the death log this high due to the nature of the damage type, being instant.

    I'd be more interested if this had much lower amount of burning but you still died which means you really got bursted.

    My other issue with the death breakdown is all you know is burning is what killed you but it doesn't break down top skills that applied the burning.

    It's very misleading.

    It's not misleading at all. Someone in the short time span of a 2v2 match, was able to deal enough burn damage to him to have gotten a top damage stat in an elongated conquest match. And that's not to mention the other condis and power damage rolling off the guy who dealt that burning.

    That's a lot of no-tell passive proc condi pressure imo.

    We could argue as to whether or not these builds are even competitive in higher tiered scenes, but is that even the point? I don't know, you tell me.

  • Brokensunday.4098Brokensunday.4098 Member ✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @DoubleSway.1549 said:
    Burn damage is obviously overpowered. It takes no skill to apply stacks of burn damage. It makes the current meta of the game terrible and completely unfun to play.

    Burn is a bit overtuned but for guard they have to hit you 5 or 3 times to trigger 1 stack of burning so it requires skill lol if you receive the same amount of hits if the guard was power you would be dead anyway... oh wait guard power damage is trash... but yes i agree burn guard needs a nerf pw needs to have its coef check.
    Edit: also trapper runes need an icd of 5 secs atleast.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    how do u wanna nerf it? Put down the damage? Then its like bleeding, just with shorter duration.

    Easy enough: You cleanse one type of condition you get a buff which block the reapplication of the same condition for some time. It could be based in the stacks, so status conditions (no intensity stacking) would only have the buff for 1s.
    Damaging conditions with intensity stacking could get 1s by stack with a high cap of some seconds let's say 10. So if you get 12 burns and you cleanse you get a buff for the next 10s which blocks any new burnings incoming.

    This can be applied to the whole game, PvE would not be impacted. No need to fiddle with conditions in the different game modes, it would self balance itself.
    10s buff too strong? let's nerf it to 5s. The important thing is to be able to have time to restore the cleanses, unless the condi damage become dodgeage, limited by current LoS, blockable by aegis and blocks, the design is simply too oppressive with current mechanics.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    how do u wanna nerf it? Put down the damage? Then its like bleeding, just with shorter duration.

    Easy enough: You cleanse one type of condition you get a buff which block the reapplication of the same condition for some time. It could be based in the stacks, so status conditions (no intensity stacking) would only have the buff for 1s.
    Damaging conditions with intensity stacking could get 1s by stack with a high cap of some seconds let's say 10. So if you get 12 burns and you cleanse you get a buff for the next 10s which blocks any new burnings incoming.

    This can be applied to the whole game, PvE would not be impacted. No need to fiddle with conditions in the different game modes, it would self balance itself.
    10s buff too strong? let's nerf it to 5s. The important thing is to be able to have time to restore the cleanses, unless the condi damage become dodgeage, limited by current LoS, blockable by aegis and blocks, the design is simply too oppressive with current mechanics.

    Condition damage is dodgeable. Condition damage is blockable.

    Guardian throws a torch? You can block it. Scourge throws a Shade? You can dodge it. Rev throws some mace skills? You can blind it.

    Oh, you mean that you can't dodge it after it has already hit you? You mean...... exactly the same as power skills?

  • Math.5123Math.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @pninak.1069 said:
    I want to know where players think 11k burns come from. tbh I think it is a blatant lie, because you forgot to count in the dmg part of skills which can do quite more than condis on top. condis are just the stuff added on the side. so for condis your dmg is far lower but it stacks together with condis leading to such myths.

    for example if I have 2k condi dmg burn does 443 dmg per second. so to reach 11k burn I need 11k:443= 25 stacks burning. this number is unlikely to get reached, because even with my 100% burn guard I can't get past 12 in pve.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot's_Fire
    this alone is about 9k burn dmg.
    1 skill. dunno how the rest works but the fact that 1 ability can whack people for over half HP, with no cast time on low cooldown AOE pulsing...
    oh and a passive that does the same every 10s. :D

    How are you getting 9k?

    mesmers torch burns for 3,5k. 1 stack for 9s.
    zealots does 4 stacks for 2s, so that equales 1 stack for 8s.
    on top of flip skill 3stacks for 3s = 1 stack for 9s, that already equals 17s burn if it was 1 stack. quick math thats 6,7k burn.
    add in power dmg, and radiant fire bonus burn duration and here ya go. about 9k, depending on the rune it could be much more, on mesmer im using hybrid.
    with balthazar I could see it being about 11-12k dmg over all if everything lands.

    Ok but you're comparing a pure damage skill / weapon to one that does other effects and it more utility( blind, stealth). Not only that but you would have to stand near on directly on top of someone for 3s as well as making sure to hit the flip skill shot, which removes the passive effect.

    I get what you're doing but something can look strong on paper but in practical application be nowhere near as powerful.

    and then torch 4 can be easy dodged, its 1 hit not 4 spread over, you dont have to dodge it 4 times to negate the damage, expecially since you have 3s heads up, and 2x the cooldown. its all a trade off.
    look at it from a different angle, if you miss half the hits you still deal more dmg then any mesmer torch skill, on half the cooldown and with questionable cast time.

    You have the same 3s prep time if you want to get the most out of torch 4 on guard. Using the flip skill ends the effect on you and it has a really obvious animation and wind up. And again all it does is damage. It has 0 utility compared to mesmer torch.

    There's more to skills than how much damage they do...

    ofc, but the fact remains that this is kill button on 15s cd. with the ammout of CC flying around it does too much damage.
    they gotta adress the CC first and see how it goes, doubt they will do a good job with their track record :D
    btw I would trade any torch skill for it any day on mesmer, even if it had 30s cd

    Okay, there is so much misinformation here that i just have to chime in.
    First of, burn dh doesn't run torch or radiance. So this skill is a complete non-factor on any decent burn build.
    Secondly, try using the ability. The throw is ground bound, see sword 3, hammer 3, lb 3. Meaning you can't hit elevated targets with it.
    It's also extremely slow moving and doesn't home in on the target.

    The skill looks good on paper (just like engi pistol 4 and ranger torch skills) but it's hot garbage.
    No actual guard build has used torch in years, or ever.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    Condition damage is dodgeable. Condition damage is blockable.

    Guardian throws a torch? You can block it. Scourge throws a Shade? You can dodge it. Rev throws some mace skills? You can blind it.

    Oh, you mean that you can't dodge it after it has already hit you? You mean...... exactly the same as power skills?

    Your example is flawled i will give you the power version of the condi.

    A ranger shoot a Rapid Fire agaisnt you. Currently you get hit once but can dodge, block or LoS the rest and mitigate some damage, 1K total damage, it's fine.

    The condition version would be if the ranger hit you once and you get the full damage of the rapid fire overtime, unblockable and undodgeable.

    One Wolf Pack i see a lot of crying about this skill, well the condi version would be instead ticking once it would tick for the next 4 seconds. The current 1K damage tick is well within low side of the bleeds damage you may get from almost any condi build.

    And now you say "cleanses" and i say: Ranger Longbow auto attack is now the new Rapid Fire which only needs to hit you once and you get damage overtime. As you can see an amazing mechanic which power damage would need to benefit from as well.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    Condition damage is dodgeable. Condition damage is blockable.

    Guardian throws a torch? You can block it. Scourge throws a Shade? You can dodge it. Rev throws some mace skills? You can blind it.

    Oh, you mean that you can't dodge it after it has already hit you? You mean...... exactly the same as power skills?

    Your example is flawled i will give you the power version of the condi.

    A ranger shoot a Rapid Fire agaisnt you. You get the first hit but can dodge the rest and mitigate some damage.

    The condition version would be if the ranger hit you once shot and you get the full damage of the rapid fire overtime, unblockable and undodgeable.

    One Wolf Pack i see a lot of crying about this skill, well the condi version would be instead ticking once it would tick for the next 4 seconds. The current 1K damage tick is well within low side of the bleeds damage you may get from almost any condi build.

    And now you say "cleanses" and i say: Ranger Longbow auto attack is now the new Rapid Fire which only needs to hit you once and you get damage overtime. As you can see an amazing mechanic which power damage would need to benefit from as well.

    Sorry, but that's nonsense.

    You've chosen a skill that does multiple hits, and compared it to an imaginary skill that does 1 hit. Why not compare it to Mighty Blow or Eviscerate? Those only hit once and do all their damage, but those don't count because they're pooooower right??

    Why not compare rapid-fire to another skill that has multiple hits? Like ranger fire trap, sword of justice, plaguelands, caltrops, confusing images etc etc etc Those don't just hit once and dump all their damage up front, they need to hit multiple times to give the full efffect. Exactly the same as rapid-fire, you can eat the first hit of those and dodge the rest, mitigating the damage.

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    Problem about this whole thread is that if burn gets nerfed people will complain about the bunker meta that will result afterwards, where healbreakers and other tanks fulltank points and nothing happens the whole match. The class that utilizes burn the most - Guardians - only do so since their power damage has become an absolute joke. Before symbols were nerfed not a single Guard had to rely on sacrificing sustain and stacking burn with Sword of Justice, but instead they had a way of ditching out damage with the little mobility they had and this source of damage got taken away on EVERY mainhand weapon set. Nerf burn on Guardians without giving back some form of Power Damage will result in Guardians being either unplayable offensively or they will run as full tanks which will contribute to the bunker meta that has established itself and will be stronger than ever if Burn Guards disappear.

    Either way - it doesn't change the fact that the positioning and way of playing of some people needs improvement. I hardly feel pressured by Burn Guards, because I actually run cleanses, don't jump onto points without a brain and am able to kite against the lowest mobility class in the game, but I feel pressured when a Herald can chase me through a whole map and hits 9K damage with a single skill. What I am saying is that burn only is a problem for less skilled players

    Also don't forget one thing - the gimmick known as Burn DH was only made possible through the constant and massive overnerfs ArenaNet has hit Guardians with in the past year - Firebrand got slaughtered, Core Guard got slaughtered - the only option for Guardians is to swap classes or stop playing if Burn also gets hit

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa